ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[pmaitra]

You logic is still flawed by WW2 area tactics! We are not talking about Stuka type dive bombings for years anymore, but about a guided weapon being launched from safe distances and high altitudes to extend the range.
Even combat helicopters today use guided ATGMs, or guided rockets to increase precision and stay out of reach of enemy ground threats.

You are quite correct in what you are saying except that it has nothing to do with what I said. Read my post again and read the quotes from the USAF document, and it is about recent combat, not about WW2 as you allege.

I do not advocate dive bombing when we have Precision Guided Bombs. I think you need to follow the chain of posts. I am talking from a hypothetical sense, because the debate was about that publicity hoarding from ADA that claimed the LCA could do what appears to be Close Air Support.

On the other hand, if we do not have Precision Guided Bombs, our options are limited. High altitude bombing can result in blue-on-blue incidents. During the Kargil War, we used only 9 Laser Guided Bombs. In other words, an overwhelming majority of our bombings were done in the traditional sense.

An LCA with LGBs, lighter PGMs and hopefully Helina varients could be a hell of a CAS fighter and even tank buster, because in modern air warfare the fighter is only the launch platform for a weapon, while the weapon itself is able to glide to the target.

Disagree and your post proves you have not read what you responded to.

Even after posting a PDF from USAF, you keep insisting on CAS for LCA.

If you are using LGB, why do you need CAS? (Try answering this specific question without distractions.) A Strike mission will do. You can get it done from far. A CAS aircraft, inter alia, needs to be able to operate in the range of 500 feet to 15,000 feet (already explained once before, but I am repeating this again).

The debate is not whether LCA can be used in CAS role. The debate is whether LCA should be used in CAS role.

IAF has a history of turning a very good interceptor, the MiG-21, into what many call the "Flying Coffin," and it isn't the fault of the aircraft or its design.

I absolutely disagree with the assumption that one size fits all. One size does not fit all. If we start using LCA for low altitude missions, we increase the chances of crashes, we will end up with injured or dead pilots, the critics will begin to howl, and the LCA programme might be closed down for good.

I want the LCA programme to succeed, and using it inappropriately is not the best way to go about it.

All this LCA and CAS is just wishful thinking. The laws of physics don't care about anyone's wishes.

I hope I have made myself very clear.

 

[Babloo Singh]

Do we have any more information on this... if true it's great news for Tejas

 

[Vinod DX9]

At last 83 1A coming...hope next Mk 2

 

[Vinod DX9]

Yes, delivery starts from 2019

 

[WolfPack86]

At last 83 1A coming...hope next Mk 2

At last miracle has happened air force order tejas tender to HAL. It's high time Indian Air Force order 300 Tejas mk 1a.

 

[Sancho]

A CAS aircraft, inter alia, needs to be able to operate in the range of 500 feet to 15,000 feet...
...If we start using LCA for low altitude missions, we increase the chances of crashes

The problem is that your understanding about CAS is wrong, because it has nothing to do with flying low, or close to the target, let alone make dive attacks as you stated in the earlier posts.

Close air support (CAS) is air action by fixed-wing and rotary-wing aircraft against hostile targets that are in close proximity to friendly forces and requires detailed integration of each air mission with the fire and movement of those forces.

Department of Defense Joint Publication 3-09.3

It means that the aircraft can provide fire support to ground troops, against either pre-planned targets, or targets of opportunity, close to own ground forces. So no matter if you have an A10, an AC130, a Reaper drone, or an F22 in different altitudes, they all can provide CAS with their weapon capabilities, not with their aircraft designs, or flight profiles!

That's why I showed earlier, that delta wing fighters are more than suitable to do CAS in war times:
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...-news-and-discussions.1/page-746#post-1382186


The only limitation of LCA remains it's limited self defence capability, which means using it for CAS missions in contested areas, without gaining air superiority, would not be a good idea, but other than that, only it's weapon capabilities will decide whether it's a reasonable or a good CAS fighter. With the current set of dumb and guided bombs it's already as good as Jags. Now cinsider an LCA with...

Pod station - LDP
Inner wing stations - fuel tanks
Mid wing stations - twin or triple launchers with Helina
Centerline station - 500lb LGB

It would be able to loiter in the area of our ground forces and attack 5 to 7 targets, which makes it the more capable alternative to this:

 

[WolfPack86]

I hope HAL will develope Tejas mk 2 by 2020.

 

[Chinmoy]

At last 83 1A coming...hope next Mk 2

Interesting point to notice is, the tender has been out without the FOC. Seems all is well on FOC end.

 

[Sancho]

Lot of confusing reports so far.

 

[patriots]

it's a great news ...hope we will see mk2 soon
it's a hard slap to Tejas haters. ....Kya Kya likh rahethe logg ....

 

[Steven Rogers]

Lot of confusing reports so far.

110million a piece. So it does contains modern EW and radar, par with the systems available in this class.

Sent from my Aqua Ace II using Tapatalk

 

[Sancho]

So it does contains modern EW and radar, par with the systems available in this class.

It is planned with AESA, new RWR and SPJ, which technically will be comparable to other systems, but overall size restrictions of LCA will set limits for available sensors, or radar diameter.

 

[Prashant12]

83 more Tejas jets: IAF asks Hindustan Aeronautics to send quote


The Indian Air Force has formally asked the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) to submit its proposal for making 83 additional Tejas fighter jets.
Of these, 73 will be the upgraded version called the ‘Mark-1A’ and 10 will be the trainer version – a twin seat version– that will be as per specifications allowed in the variant okayed for existing final operational clearance (FOC). The HAL will submit its proposal within 90 days that is by March next year. HAL is already making 40 Tejas jets as per the FOC standards set by the IAF.

At present pace, the Mark 1-A can first be ready for first flight by 2019.

The Tribune had first reported on November 14 how the Ministry of Defence (MoD) was clearing the hurdles to the project and was more interested in ‘Make in India’ project of the light combat aircraft, Tejas.

On November 7 last year, the Defence Acquisition Council, chaired by then Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar, approved the procurement of 83 planes of the ‘Mark1-A’ version. But a formal order is yet to be placed. It was almost two years ago, in December 2015, that the IAF indicated the requirement of 100 Tejas LCA MK 1-A aircraft, for which a formal order is yet to be placed. The plan of manufacturing and completion is from 2018 to 2022-23.

The seeking of proposal from HAL, an MoD owned public sector undertaking, is the first step towards getting these jets.

There are 123 Tejas jets – in two variants — that the MoD is looking at. Forty planes of the base version have been ordered and are under production. The Mark 1-A version will have 43 upgrades over the base version.

The IAF wants AESA radar in place of the manually scanned Israeli Elta radar. Besides it wants a ‘self-protection jammer’, fitted with external re-fuelling capability.

Besides, the MoD has Rs 1,331-crore plan to double the existing eight planes per annum capacity of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/na...ndustan-aeronautics-to-send-quote/516283.html

 

[tejas warrior]

#TejasUpdate #5
#IAF issues Rs 60K crore tender for 83 Mk1A #Tejas fighters to #HAL thereby giving a big boost to #MakeInIndia. This means 20 (IOC)+ 20 (FOC)+ 83 (MkIA) = 123.
83 dlievery will begin from 2019-20 period onwards after FOC contract. finishes @ajitkdubey @akananth

 

[Sancho]

83 dlievery will begin from 2019-20 period onwards after FOC contract. finishes

=>

HAL CMD T Suvarna Raju

...While the promises are for getting the FOC by mid-2018, we will definitely get it by December 2018. We should then be able to supply these 20 FOC by 2022. And then on to the next 83… If capacities are put on depending on the configuration clearance, the numbers can be rolled out...

http://indianexpress.com/article/bu...a-thats-where-delays-are-coming-4944113/lite/

 

[Steven Rogers]

It is planned with AESA, new RWR and SPJ, which technically will be comparable to other systems, but overall size restrictions of LCA will set limits for available sensors, or radar diameter.

Well a downgraded equipment won't cost much. Ex. JF17

Sent from my Aqua Ace II using Tapatalk

 

[tejas warrior]

Perplexing tweets by many claiming the LCA Tejas tender is a ‘huge boost’ to the indigenous program. The tender is merely a procedural transition from the indent for 83 Mk1A jets decided by the IAF a couple of years ago.

The 123 aircraft (20 IOC + 20 FOC + 83 Mk1A) are a mix of orders or indents, so this was captive anyway. A ‘huge boost’, therefore, would be to any orders/indents beyond these 123 aircraft.

A ‘huge boost’ would therefore be an alignment of requirements and progress on the Mk1A (and perhaps the Mk2) to compel greater numbers beyond 123. It is important that happens.

 

[Kshithij]

Assume, the LCA is used in a Close Air Support role, flies at an altitude of 7750 feet or 2362 metres (which is the average of 15,000 feet and 500 feet, the altitude range of CAS) with a dive angle of 25 degrees (which is the average of 5 degrees and 45 degrees); how will the aircraft handle?

You logic is still flawed by WW2 area tactics! We are not talking about Stuka type dive bombings for years anymore, but about a guided weapon being launched from safe distances and high altitudes to extend the range.
Even combat helicopters today use guided ATGMs, or guided rockets to increase precision and stay out of reach of enemy ground threats.
An LCA with LGBs, lighter PGMs and hopefully Helina varients could be a hell of a CAS fighter and even tank buster, because in modern air warfare the fighter is only the launch platform for a weapon, while the weapon itself is able to glide to the target.

@Sancho is right. Diving era is gone. Only dumb bombs need dive.

But, is use of heavy bombs considered CAS or as strike? Isn't CAS about launching missiles like Helina/SANT?

The problem is that your understanding about CAS is wrong, because it has nothing to do with flying low, or close to the target, let alone make dive attacks as you stated in the earlier posts.



It means that the aircraft can provide fire support to ground troops, against either pre-planned targets, or targets of opportunity, close to own ground forces. So no matter if you have an A10, an AC130, a Reaper drone, or an F22 in different altitudes, they all can provide CAS with their weapon capabilities, not with their aircraft designs, or flight profiles!

That's why I showed earlier, that delta wing fighters are more than suitable to do CAS in war times:
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...-news-and-discussions.1/page-746#post-1382186


The only limitation of LCA remains it's limited self defence capability, which means using it for CAS missions in contested areas, without gaining air superiority, would not be a good idea, but other than that, only it's weapon capabilities will decide whether it's a reasonable or a good CAS fighter. With the current set of dumb and guided bombs it's already as good as Jags. Now cinsider an LCA with...

Pod station - LDP
Inner wing stations - fuel tanks
Mid wing stations - twin or triple launchers with Helina
Centerline station - 500lb LGB

It would be able to loiter in the area of our ground forces and attack 5 to 7 targets, which makes it the more capable alternative to this:

CAS can indeed be done by any plane including Tejas. With LGB, it is no longer a big deal. Even at the height of 10000 feet, bombs can be dropped.

But, the problem with you comparing drones to be replaced by LCA for CAS is that drones are cheap, has no pilot and can be afforded to be lost. Second, CAS is not a bombing mission. It is use of small missiles like Helina. I am sure that Tejas won't be used to launch Helinas or the latest SANT missile. These missiles compulsorily need to be launched from low altitude and that makes the launching platform suffer serious risks. While launching these Helina missiles, the aircrafts have to be slow. Such missiles can't be launched from a speed of 1 Mach. So, there is really no point using LCA for CAS

It is better to use HTT40 (turbo prop) or drones for CAS due to this reason only. They are cheap aircrafts. Drones are more preferred as they don't have pilots.

Tejas can launch rockets and ATGM and is definitely usable as CAS. But, it is not worth the risk. Also, there is no special disadvantage for other cheaper aircrafts like HTT40. The weight of HELINA is small and hence the limiting factor will be the number of hard points and the racking ability. The weight of HELINA is 42kg. Even 10 of them will weigh 420kg and with pylon will weigh 500kg. Does one really need Tejas for this role?

 

[Sancho]

It is use of small missiles like Helina. I am sure that Tejas won't be used to launch Helinas or the latest SANT missile. These missiles compulsorily need to be launched from low altitude and that makes the launching platform suffer serious risks.

DRDO has already claimed to develop a HELINA version for fixed wing aircrafts and just compare Brimstone on Tornado, or EF now and you will understand the benefit of adding them to fighters.

 

[binayak95]

People are confusing strike missions with CAS. CAS stands for Close Air Support, ergo, an aircraft that flies close to the frontline, in direct support to infantry and armour. This means, by its very definition an aircraft that can handle sustained small arms fire, maybe even AA fire and MANPADs.

The Apache is a CAS aircraft, the A-10 is a CAS aircraft, so are the Mi35 and the Su-25 Frogfoot.

The F-16, just like the Tejas can be a strike aircraft, not CAS!