ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

Which role suits LCA 'Tejas' more than others from following options?

  • Interceptor-Defend Skies from Intruders.

    Votes: 342 51.3%
  • Airsuperiority-Complete control of the skies.

    Votes: 17 2.5%
  • Strike-Attack deep into enemy zone.

    Votes: 24 3.6%
  • Multirole-Perform multiple roles.

    Votes: 284 42.6%

  • Total voters
    667
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Kshithij

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DRDO has already claimed to develop a HELINA version for fixed wing aircrafts and just compare Brimstone on Tornado, or EF now and you will understand the benefit of adding them to fighters.
Helina/SANT can be used in planes. But, they are not to be used from extraordinary heights. They are to be launched from closer to the ground. CAS is a way of "CHEAP" way of targeting armour with great precision and ensuring that the friendly units close by are not hurt. The options of striking from high altitude is not CAS. It may be more effective but is also expensive.

CAS requirements are:
1) Low speed, generally it is less than 0.5 Mach during operations
2) Large number of hardpoint to carry more number of light weapons (200kg or less) than small number of heavy weapons
3) Cheap to manufacture without requirement for modern radars, EW etc.

CAS aircrafts are basically performing roles of helicopters. The difference is that helicopters are less aerodynamic than a plane
 

Chinmoy

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Perplexing tweets by many claiming the LCA Tejas tender is a ‘huge boost’ to the indigenous program. The tender is merely a procedural transition from the indent for 83 Mk1A jets decided by the IAF a couple of years ago.

The 123 aircraft (20 IOC + 20 FOC + 83 Mk1A) are a mix of orders or indents, so this was captive anyway. A ‘huge boost’, therefore, would be to any orders/indents beyond these 123 aircraft.

A ‘huge boost’ would therefore be an alignment of requirements and progress on the Mk1A (and perhaps the Mk2) to compel greater numbers beyond 123. It is important that happens.



Huge boost is the fund, not the numbers. RFP has been issued means when the order would be placed, IAF would release fund for development.
 

porky_kicker

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Helina/SANT can be used in planes. But, they are not to be used from extraordinary heights. They are to be launched from closer to the ground. CAS is a way of "CHEAP" way of targeting armour with great precision and ensuring that the friendly units close by are not hurt. The options of striking from high altitude is not CAS. It may be more effective but is also expensive.

CAS requirements are:
1) Low speed, generally it is less than 0.5 Mach during operations
2) Large number of hardpoint to carry more number of light weapons (200kg or less) than small number of heavy weapons
3) Cheap to manufacture without requirement for modern radars, EW etc.

CAS aircrafts are basically performing roles of helicopters. The difference is that helicopters are less aerodynamic than a plane
Helina with MMW seeker will be for aircrafts
 

pmaitra

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@Sancho is right. Diving era is gone. Only dumb bombs need dive.

But, is use of heavy bombs considered CAS or as strike? Isn't CAS about launching missiles like Helina/SANT?



CAS can indeed be done by any plane including Tejas. With LGB, it is no longer a big deal. Even at the height of 10000 feet, bombs can be dropped.

But, the problem with you comparing drones to be replaced by LCA for CAS is that drones are cheap, has no pilot and can be afforded to be lost. Second, CAS is not a bombing mission. It is use of small missiles like Helina. I am sure that Tejas won't be used to launch Helinas or the latest SANT missile. These missiles compulsorily need to be launched from low altitude and that makes the launching platform suffer serious risks. While launching these Helina missiles, the aircrafts have to be slow. Such missiles can't be launched from a speed of 1 Mach. So, there is really no point using LCA for CAS

It is better to use HTT40 (turbo prop) or drones for CAS due to this reason only. They are cheap aircrafts. Drones are more preferred as they don't have pilots.

Tejas can launch rockets and ATGM and is definitely usable as CAS. But, it is not worth the risk. Also, there is no special disadvantage for other cheaper aircrafts like HTT40. The weight of HELINA is small and hence the limiting factor will be the number of hard points and the racking ability. The weight of HELINA is 42kg. Even 10 of them will weigh 420kg and with pylon will weigh 500kg. Does one really need Tejas for this role?
The document from USAF talks about dive angles and it is not just bombing, but also using the machine gun or Gatlin-Gun while in a pitch down orientation.

The question I asked about a delta wing aircraft in a pitch down low altitude mission is because I wanted to discuss how it would handle in such a situation. Those that are advocating LCA for CAS should be able to answer that question.

A lot of your questions about CAS is answered there. Yes, that document also talks about rotary wing aircraft used in CAS, and yes, your question about using missiles like Helina is answered.

The problem is that your understanding about CAS is wrong, because it has nothing to do with flying low, or close to the target, let alone make dive attacks as you stated in the earlier posts.
You haven't answered my question.

Anyway, my understanding of CAS is as "wrong" as the contents of an official document from the US Air Force.

So, if you want to call it wrong, so be it. You are entitled to your opinion.



People are confusing strike missions with CAS. CAS stands for Close Air Support, ergo, an aircraft that flies close to the frontline, in direct support to infantry and armour. This means, by its very definition an aircraft that can handle sustained small arms fire, maybe even AA fire and MANPADs.

The Apache is a CAS aircraft, the A-10 is a CAS aircraft, so are the Mi35 and the Su-25 Frogfoot.

The F-16, just like the Tejas can be a strike aircraft, not CAS!
Thank you Sir. You are quite correct.
 

Indian Sniper.001

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Has this been posted? If not, a good news.

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The Indian Air Force (IAF) has placed orders for 83 Tejas fighter jets with HAL, Bangalore, taking the total order of indigenous fighters to 123 aircraft. The 83 aircraft will be of Mark-1 configuration, an improved version of the single-engine fighter being inducted into the IAF. “HAL has received RFP (Request for Proposal) for supply of 83 LCA from IAF,” said the HAL spokesperson. The total cost of the contract for the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Mark-1 version, which is still in the design stage, is expected to be around Rs 50,000 crore, a source told The Indian Express.

The IAF had placed an order for 20 Tejas fighters in the Initial Operation Clearance (IOC) configuration on HAL, of which five have been provided till date. These fighters have been inducted in the No 45 squadron of the IAF, starting July last year. HAL Chairman and CMD T Suvarna Raju had told The Indian Express that 11 IOC aircraft will be supplied by March 2018, and the rest subsequently.

The next order placed by the IAF is for 20 fighters in Final Operation Clearance (FOC), which are expected to be supplied by 2023. HAL expects the FOC for the Tejas LCA to be given by the middle of next year, following which the jets can go into production.

The order for 83 fighters will go some way in making up the shortfall of fighter squadrons in the IAF but will not be able to meet IAF’s authorisation of 42 squadrons. The IAF currently has 33 squadrons and if the French Rafale fighters and Tejas are inducted on schedule, without any other induction of fighters, the numbers will come down to 27 by 2032 and 19 by 2042.

To make up for the shortfall, the IAF has been interested in a single-engine foreign fighter, wherein it hopes to select between the American F-18 and the Swedish Gripen aircraft.

Although both these fighters are expected to be made in India, the government seems keen on procuring the indigenously developed Tejas fighters for IAF. This has led to no progress from the ministry on issuing a request for information for the single-engine foreign fighter jets.

Source - http://indianexpress.com/article/india/rs-50000-cr-iaf-orders-83-tejas-jets-from-hal-4992241/
 

Sancho

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The Tejas Mark 1A will be priced at Rs 400 crore (US $62.5 million), almost twice the cost of the current Mark 1 fighter

By Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 21st Dec 17

In a big step towards defence indigenisation, the Indian Air Force (IAF) has issued Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) a tender for 83 Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA).

Late on Wednesday, HAL issued a brief note stating: “HAL has received Request for Proposal (RFP) for 83 LCAs from Indian Air Force.”

Earlier on Wednesday, the defence minister stated in a written reply in Parliament: “Defence Acquisitions Council (DAC) has cleared acquisition of 83 LCA Mk 1A for IAF, production of which is planned from 2019-20…”

With HAL sources placing the ticket price of the Tejas Mark 1A at about Rs 400 crore per aircraft, the 83-fighter deal would generate Rs 33,200 crore worth of business to HAL and a range of Indian and foreign upstream suppliers.

At present, HAL is struggling to establish Tejas manufacture for 40 fighters already on order – 20 fighters in the initial operational configuration (IOC); followed by another 20 in the final operational configuration (FOC), when that is obtained.

Acknowledging the manufacturing delay in Parliament today, the defence ministry stated: “Out of total 20 IOC aircraft (16 fighters and 4 trainers), 5 fighters have been delivered by HAL to IAF till date. The production of remaining 15 IOC aircraft (11 fighters + 4 trainers) are taken up at HAL.”

Further, “Production for 20 FOC aircraft, will be taken up after FOC clearance by Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA).”

While HAL builds these 40 Tejas Mark 1 fighters, it is also working on four major upgrades that will transform the current version of the fighter into the Tejas Mark 1A, of which 83 will be built.

Of the four upgrades, the two most operationally vital involve integrating the fighter with “active electronically scanned array” (AESA) radar, in place of the Tejas Mark 1’s manually scanned Israeli Elta EL/M 2032 radar; and integrating a “self-protection jammer” (SPJ) that is carried in an external pod under the Tejas’ wing.

Two other upgrades – improving the “maintainability” of the fighter, and fitting it with external refuelling capability – are already well in hand.

The defence ministry told Parliament today that, to introduce the Tejas into service in larger numbers, a second production line was being set up. “For ramping up production capacity from existing 8 aircraft to 16 aircraft per annum, Government of India has sanctioned Rs 1,381.04 crore in March 2017”.

Despite these measures, indigenous production of the Tejas would be insufficient to meet the IAF’s requirements, given the likely phasing out of ten squadrons (210 aircraft) of MiG-21s and MiG-27s this decade.

The ministry told Parliament: “In order to bolster the fighter squadron strength, Government of India has also planned to manufacture fighter aircraft through Strategic Partnership model.”

The Strategic Partnership model envisages selected private sector firms building defence platforms in India in partnership with a selected foreign vendor that transfers technology to manufacture here.

The IAF has already sent out enquiries for building a “single-engine fighter” in India, for which Lockheed Martin is fielding its F-16 Block 70 fighter, and Saab is offering the Gripen E.
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.de/2017/12/indian-air-force-initiates-rs-33000.html?m=1
 

sthf

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Rajat Pandit at his very best.... :facepalm:

IAF to order 83 more Tejas but has got only 5 of 40 ordered earlier

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...f-40-ordered-earlier/articleshow/62184429.cms
I have something better. According to this moron IAF may only have 16 squadrons in 2032 and India will manufacture Rafales because it is a part of the offsets.:frusty:

BC kahan kahan se chale aate hain.:doh:

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-air-force-may-only-have-300-fighter-jets-by-2032-2569055

=======================

Also, Dalal Shukla is saying that Mk1A will cost Rs 33,000 crore, around $60 million each.

http://wap.business-standard.com/ar...-buy-of-83-tejas-fighters-117122100050_1.html
 

Sancho

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CAS stands for Close Air Support, ergo, an aircraft that flies close to the frontline, in direct support to infantry and armour.
Correct.

This means, by its very definition an aircraft that can handle sustained small arms fire, maybe even AA fire and MANPADs.
Wrong, because "close" doesn't mean low altitude, but in close proximity to the ground forces, while a standard strike mission, would be against targets like bridges, radar sites, fuel depots, without own forces on the ground.
Also in the past avoiding ground threats meant flying low and fast, today it means staying outside of the reach of ground threats, by making maximum use of weapon range.
 

Chinmoy

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Has this been posted? If not, a good news.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Indian Air Force (IAF) has placed orders for 83 Tejas fighter jets with HAL, Bangalore, taking the total order of indigenous fighters to 123 aircraft. The 83 aircraft will be of Mark-1 configuration, an improved version of the single-engine fighter being inducted into the IAF. “HAL has received RFP (Request for Proposal) for supply of 83 LCA from IAF,” said the HAL spokesperson. The total cost of the contract for the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Mark-1 version, which is still in the design stage, is expected to be around Rs 50,000 crore, a source told The Indian Express.

The IAF had placed an order for 20 Tejas fighters in the Initial Operation Clearance (IOC) configuration on HAL, of which five have been provided till date. These fighters have been inducted in the No 45 squadron of the IAF, starting July last year. HAL Chairman and CMD T Suvarna Raju had told The Indian Express that 11 IOC aircraft will be supplied by March 2018, and the rest subsequently.

The next order placed by the IAF is for 20 fighters in Final Operation Clearance (FOC), which are expected to be supplied by 2023. HAL expects the FOC for the Tejas LCA to be given by the middle of next year, following which the jets can go into production.

The order for 83 fighters will go some way in making up the shortfall of fighter squadrons in the IAF but will not be able to meet IAF’s authorisation of 42 squadrons. The IAF currently has 33 squadrons and if the French Rafale fighters and Tejas are inducted on schedule, without any other induction of fighters, the numbers will come down to 27 by 2032 and 19 by 2042.

To make up for the shortfall, the IAF has been interested in a single-engine foreign fighter, wherein it hopes to select between the American F-18 and the Swedish Gripen aircraft.

Although both these fighters are expected to be made in India, the government seems keen on procuring the indigenously developed Tejas fighters for IAF. This has led to no progress from the ministry on issuing a request for information for the single-engine foreign fighter jets.

Source - http://indianexpress.com/article/india/rs-50000-cr-iaf-orders-83-tejas-jets-from-hal-4992241/
Another gem........ F-18 is a single engine fighter... :frusty::frusty::frusty::frusty::frusty::frusty:

Where are my shoes meant for the editor??????????????????
 

Sancho

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You haven't answered my question.

Anyway, my understanding of CAS is as "wrong" as the contents of an official document from the US Air Force.
Of course not, because your question was based on a wrong understanding of CAS. That's why I quoted the official US DoD definition of CAS for you, which btw is the basis of your own documents as well:


Again, per definition, altitude, speed or dive attacks has no relevance for the role, because any air attack in support of friendly troops accounts for CAS!
So no matter if you make an outdated dive attack to drop dumb bombs directly above the target...
...or if you attack it like in modern air warfare, with ATGMs / LGBs from 7 to 15Km distance at high altitudes => it's CAS!

Not the design of the weapon launch platform is important today, but the capability of the weapon itself.

So you are wrong not because I said so, but because your definition of CAS is wrong and outdated. LCA not only is capable of doing CAS, but with LDP, 500 and 1000lb LGBs integrated, is better suited for the role, than any fighter we had in Kargil (btw, the lack of suitable weapons systems was the reason why only a low number of LGBs was used back then, read up on the issues with US paveway LGBs...)!
Add an ATGM with multi launchers and you have a cost-effective CAS platform, with sufficient loiter time and weapon load capability, for uncontested areas.

The old idea of aircrafts that makes low level attack runs is gone, that's why A10, Su 25 or the Tornado gets upgraded with guided weapons or replaced.
In Libya the Tornado was the most efficient CAS fighter, because of the use of Litening pod, 500lb Paveway 4 LGBs and Brimstone ATGMs. By 2019 it passes the crown to the EF P3E, a delta canard fighter, with the same weapons, but higher load capabilities and more survivability.
 

Kshithij

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Of course not, because your question was based on a wrong understanding of CAS. That's why I quoted the official US DoD definition of CAS for you, which btw is the basis of your own documents as well:


Again, per definition, altitude, speed or dive attacks has no relevance for the role, because any air attack in support of friendly troops accounts for CAS!
So no matter if you make an outdated dive attack to drop dumb bombs directly above the target...
...or if you attack it like in modern air warfare, with ATGMs / LGBs from 7 to 15Km distance at high altitudes => it's CAS!

Not the design of the weapon launch platform is important today, but the capability of the weapon itself.

So you are wrong not because I said so, but because your definition of CAS is wrong and outdated. LCA not only is capable of doing CAS, but with LDP, 500 and 1000lb LGBs integrated, is better suited for the role, than any fighter we had in Kargil (btw, the lack of suitable weapons systems was the reason why only a low number of LGBs was used back then, read up on the issues with US paveway LGBs...)!
Add an ATGM with multi launchers and you have a cost-effective CAS platform, with sufficient loiter time and weapon load capability, for uncontested areas.

The old idea of aircrafts that makes low level attack runs is gone, that's why A10, Su 25 or the Tornado gets upgraded with guided weapons or replaced.
In Libya the Tornado was the most efficient CAS fighter, because of the use of Litening pod, 500lb Paveway 4 LGBs and Brimstone ATGMs. By 2019 it passes the crown to the EF P3E, a delta canard fighter, with the same weapons, but higher load capabilities and more survivability.
You are correct that Tejas can do CAS. But, it is better to not ask it to do so. Don't mistake Kargil for CAS. In Kargil, it was strike role. CAS is generally for enemy mobile assets, not fixed assets of enemy. CAS is used ONLY after air superiority is achieved. Only a poor army invades without achieving air superiority. It will lead to unnecessary slaughter of one's soldiers.

So, there is no question of keeping high altitude and increasing expense for CAS. CAS can be done at high altitude and is better, but the main reason for CAS is to keep expense low and still get the job done.
 

binayak95

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Correct.



Wrong, because "close" doesn't mean low altitude, but in close proximity to the ground forces, while a standard strike mission, would be against targets like bridges, radar sites, fuel depots, without own forces on the ground.
Also in the past avoiding ground threats meant flying low and fast, today it means staying outside of the reach of ground threats, by making maximum use of weapon range.
Agreed that modern day close air support combat does often dictate the absolute necessity of staying beyond the operational envelope of MANPADs and SAMs.

Which is why you see Rafales and F-15Es carrying strike sorties. And from way beyond the threat envelope.

But, they can't do what an Apache or an A-10 (alternatively a Mi-35 or a Su-25) can achieve (or even the MiG-27) with their cannons. That is a true CAS role.

In such circumstances, often SAMs have been eliminated by SEAD strikes (by above mentioned Rafales or F-15Es). But the risk of AA arty and HMGs still remains - ergo you need your CAS aircraft to be able to sustain multiple hits. Apaches, Mi 35s, A 10s and Su-25s have demonstrated such survivability time and again.
 

rohit b3

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Question is...is the 33000 crores the fly away cost , or the whole deal including accessories. If its including everything its incredible!
33000 crores = 5.15 Bil$ for 83 Tejas mk1A
An equal number of Gripen E would cost 10.86 bil$..over 2 times more(based on the Brazil deal) and an equal number of Rafale would cost around 21 Bil$...over 4 times more.

Some sources also say the deal is worth 50,000 crores or 7.8 Bil$.. Its still the cheapest option, but i would be disappointed due to the cost escalation and also being only 28% cheaper than the Gripen E.
 

Kshithij

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Question is...is the 33000 crores the fly away cost , or the whole deal including accessories. If its including everything its incredible!
33000 crores = 5.15 Bil$ for 83 Tejas mk1A
An equal number of Gripen E would cost 10.86 bil$..over 2 times more(based on the Brazil deal) and an equal number of Rafale would cost around 21 Bil$...over 4 times more.

Some sources also say the deal is worth 50,000 crores or 7.8 Bil$.. Its still the cheapest option, but i would be disappointed due to the cost escalation and also being only 28% cheaper than the Gripen E.
The cost will include capital investment cost for production of parts, setting of assembly lines, building of hangars, airports etc. In addition, it will also involve developmental cost to develop MK1A from MK1. In this way, some 2 billion dollars may be directly used in asset formation. Initial cost should not be considered as a benchmark.
 

Steven Rogers

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It is planned with AESA, new RWR and SPJ, which technically will be comparable to other systems, but overall size restrictions of LCA will set limits for available sensors, or radar diameter.
Aperture of the radar will be small, RWR probably the digital RWR with six Antennas on board.

Sent from my Aqua Ace II using Tapatalk
 

Sancho

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But, they can't do what an Apache or an A-10 (alternatively a Mi-35 or a Su-25) can achieve (or even the MiG-27) with their cannons. That is a true CAS role.
There is no true CAS, only the misconseption that an A10 would do attacks with it's gun all the time. Even in WW1 aircrafts supported ground troops, by dropping grenades on enemy troops and not only used their guns.
Also what makes you think a Rafale couldn't do a gun attack? The low speed manuverability of fighters with canards is well known, Rafales radar and avionics are geared for low level flights as well, so what stops it?
 
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