ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[wuzetian]

If the ferry range is that of 1700 km, assume its combat radius to be anywhere between 500 to 700 km. But is this ferry range is with or without drop tanks. I am safely assuming it without the drop tanks, as per open source range of Tejas is 3000 km.

3000km range for Tejas ?[emoji45]

 

[Chinmoy]

3000km range for Tejas ?[emoji45]

Yeah........ as per open media. Didn't got any info regarding this in official site though. But if it is the range, then it would be only possible with two drop tanks.

 

[wuzetian]

Yeah........ as per open media. Didn't got any info regarding this in official site though. But if it is the range, then it would be only possible with two drop tanks.

Hmm.

Somewhere I read it's combat radius is just 300km

 

[Flame Thrower]

Hmm.

Somewhere I read it's combat radius is just 300km

Yes 300 km, but If I remember correctly the payload is 1 central drop tank + 2*1000 pound bombs + 2 derby + 2 python on lo lo lo mission.

500 km with same payload for hi lo hi mission.

Not sure on only air to air missiles.

Ferry range without payload/drop tank is 1700km.

Can anyone confirm is it 2 or 3 drop tanks for 3000km ferry range....

 

[EXPERT]

Tejas is capable of doing everything and even more than what it was originally conceived to replace. It is almost becoming a Gripen equivalent now.

Well, thats a myth brother. Tejas is still very less capable and DRDO, HAL and ADA is struggling with the developement. If it was on par with Gripen then we would have gone for a more capable MMRCA tender which we aint.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Well, thats a myth brother. Tejas is still very less capable and DRDO, HAL and ADA is struggling with the developement. If it was on par with Gripen then we would have gone for a more capable MMRCA tender which we aint.

Kindly elaborate. Because it's not the first time such sweeping criticism has been passed against Tejas without considering facts.

 

[EXPERT]

Kindly elaborate. Because it's not the first time such sweeping criticism has been passed against Tejas without considering facts.

elaborating this is pretty difficult, you know we already had a lot of disscussion on this particular aircraft and all of its versions and prototypes.
IAF bought MK 1's only to appease Ministry of Defence and to motivate HAL. We do have small to major problems going on with every single technology. From Avionics to Airframe, so i cant elaborate as of now. If you want you may go ahead with the threads we already disscussed.

 

[Rahul Singh]

elaborating this is pretty difficult, you know we already had a lot of disscussion on this particular aircraft and all of its versions and prototypes.
IAF bought MK 1's only to appease Ministry of Defence and to motivate HAL. We do have small to major problems going on with every single technology. From Avionics to Airframe, so i cant elaborate as of now. If you want you may go ahead with the threads we already disscussed.

Since you chose not to elaborate. I give you only one example. Gripen has had crash because of failure of its FCS and Tejas despite having a first time developed fully indigenous FCS along with DFCC has not had a single incident because of it.

Still, if you and others chose to simply echo what is publically said because of certain motivation or vested interests. Then what can i say?

 

[EXPERT]

Since you chose not to elaborate. I give you only one example. Gripen has had crash because of failure of its FCS and Tejas despite having a first time developed fully indigenous FCS along with DFCC has not had a single incident because of it.

Still, if you and others chose to simply echo what is publically said because of certain motivation or vested interests. Then what can i say?

I was stucked somewhere else, wait for a while pal..
ill give you the detailed words why i said that..

 

[Bahrtiya]

Best way to counter this is reallocate all the shore based air bases to Indian navy and increase the funding to Navy's air arm, at least they do accept home made products.

 

[Rahul Singh]

I was stucked somewhere else, wait for a while pal..
ill give you the detailed words why i said that..

Most eagerly waiting (even though I can guess what will be).

 

[Certified Gipsy]

Yes 300 km, but If I remember correctly the payload is 1 central drop tank + 2*1000 pound bombs + 2 derby + 2 python on lo lo lo mission.

500 km with same payload for hi lo hi mission.

Not sure on only air to air missiles.

Ferry range without payload/drop tank is 1700km.

Can anyone confirm is it 2 or 3 drop tanks for 3000km ferry range....

Combat radius is 500 km . IOC has already specified this.

 

[Narasimh]

Well, thats a myth brother. Tejas is still very less capable and DRDO, HAL and ADA is struggling with the developement. If it was on par with Gripen then we would have gone for a more capable MMRCA tender which we aint.

Many IAF pilots have said its capability much more than Mig 21 Bison. With AESA, new Israeli missiles and other improvements it will get better.
Thing is LCA may not be exactly as it was envisioned by IAF but it can still fill an operational role with IAF which is better than the Mig.
CEMILAC and other flight testing agencies have certified it after extensive trials, so I am pretty sure IAF also has faith in the aircraft else it would not have inducted.
Tejas class of aircraft is sought after in the whole world by smaller air forces, so it has a huge export potential.

Most important of all is that Tejas being a domestic effort, we have no choice but to support this program with all strength because if 20 years down the line we are still buying planes from outside, we would go bankrupt and have no capability.

 

[Certified Gipsy]

Well, thats a myth brother. Tejas is still very less capable and DRDO, HAL and ADA is struggling with the developement. If it was on par with Gripen then we would have gone for a more capable MMRCA tender which we aint.

I would any day trust Air Cmr. Muthanna that has worked from the start of the design for both Sukhoi and Tejas, flown and extensively tested than believing you. When Cmdr. Muthanna says Tejas is a mini Sukhoi, that speaks volumes about the what Tejas is capable of.

He says he doesnt want to call Tejas a mini Mirage 2000 as that is too soft.

That fact that despite all these hours of tests not a single Tejas has met with any fatal accident speaks volumes about the reliability and quality of the aircraft and the talent of our designers to create such a fantastic bird in their very first attempt.

 

[Certified Gipsy]

Many IAF pilots have said its capability much more than Mig 21 Bison. With AESA, new Israeli missiles and other improvements it will get better.
Thing is LCA may not be exactly as it was envisioned by IAF but it can still fill an operational role with IAF which is better than the Mig.
CEMILAC and other flight testing agencies have certified it after extensive trials, so I am pretty sure IAF also has faith in the aircraft else it would not have inducted.
Tejas class of aircraft is sought after in the whole world by smaller air forces, so it has a huge export potential.

Most important of all is that Tejas being a domestic effort, we have no choice but to support this program with all strength because if 20 years down the line we are still buying planes from outside, we would go bankrupt and have no capability.

What did the IAF envision at the start? Did they envision Tejas as FGFA or as a MiG 21 replacement?

 

[Rahul Singh]

Thing is LCA may not be exactly as it was envisioned by IAF but it can still fill an operational role with IAF which is better than the Mig.

Tejas as today is a swing role (you can see iron fist video) L-MRCA . Back then in 80s when it was envisioned the requirement was of a point defence fighter like Mig-21.

In fact, the only sector where IAF feels compromising is maneuverability. But this too is a old story. This year has seen Tejas doing unexpected. With certain improvements in airframe Tejas MK-1 is certified for +8g clean and +6g loaded. Compare this with any other light fighter like Gripen you would know Tejas is very much an equal.

There is another story in making as well. Tejas MK-1A: this version of Tejas is expected to see a reduction in empty weight by 600 kgs to a ton. Apart from it there will a host of airframe improvements as well for drag reduction which is possible by up to 6-8%. Considering ADA-HAL manages to achieve these successfully, the Tejas MK-1A will see further improvement in its manoeuvrability from +8g clean and +6g loaded and 26* AoA to a better figure.

At MK-1A stage, one can only imagine how far close Tejas will be wrt performance of Gripen C. But Gripen C does not carry an AESA which Tejas will carry.

Bottom line: Tejas is not Mig-21 class but Gripen class.

 

[dude00720]

It might sound far-fetched here, but, if produce our own aircraft by 2050 then, India might actually be a 1st world country by then.

Having said that, I would personally not ignore the F-18 or Gripen bids. If we can fast track a technology somehow to apply on Tejas MK2 [ex. Better engines] . It should be considered. One titbit, if Hillary clinton wins, we should think that F-16/18 proposals will be revoked.

Every arms manufacturer has a lobbyists. And they all have offices in different countries. Sadly, in the process of bidding for their own products, The lobbyists[who are mostly Indian] tend to ignore that, they should not oppose an Indian programme for that. If they are looking long term, an Indian program will make them more rich over next 20 years.

What is needed is a comprehensive program which keeps Indian defence as foremost.

And, please be kind, Let us not compare Tejas MK1A with a Sukhoi MK-30 or for that matter a Rafale.

For the people who say, Tejas has taken time. Let us remember, after 2004, Tejas was completely ignored.

For Tejas fans[I am one of them], I agree that, challenges are many. But, put the word out. Hell, I did not know until 2 months back, that Kaveri was a technological challenge. Put it out in Top IITs. Trust the talent in the country a lumpsum of 100 crore might actually get u a great design.

 

[Rahul Singh]

It should be considered. One titbit, if Hillary clinton wins, we should think that F-16/18 proposals will be revoked.

In any case, Gripen won't win. Greater requirement from this tender for single engine fighter is ToT on turbofan technology required for the development of a suitable engine for AMCA. This is where SAAB's partner Volvo aero can't help. So more or less this is a single vendor tender. Considering American don't back out on ToT.

 

[Adioz]

It might sound far-fetched here, but, if produce our own aircraft by 2050 then, India might actually be a 1st world country by then.

For the umpteenth time: please, stop using cold war era jargon.
1st world = NATO and allies
2nd world = Warsaw pact and allies
3rd world = N.A.M.

I think the word you are looking for here is high-income economy/developed country.
Coming back to your point, right now we are a low-income economy that has just started moving towards a middle-income status (where PRC is today). We can become a middle-income nation by 2035 if all goes as per plan and no black swans spread their wings. Its the next part that is important- the transition from a middle income to a high-income economy. That makes the difference between us being on-par with USA or exceeding them (in gross GDP and military budget terms). If we get stuck in a middle income trap like Brazil, it would be a blow to humanity (I am not shitting you). We need a seamless transition in the 2030s and early 2040s to become a fully developed economy by 2050. This is something South Korea executed perfectly and China is currently beginning to attempt the same.

This means all headwinds to globalization are headwinds to our growth. China grew so fast 'cause it had the winds of globalization in its sails. We, on the contrary, are beginning to see headwinds slowing us down (protectionism and automation) and reversing globalization (BREXIT and TRUMPENTER).

Having said that, I would personally not ignore the F-18 or Gripen bids. If we can fast track a technology somehow to apply on Tejas MK2 [ex. Better engines] . It should be considered. One titbit, if Hillary clinton wins, we should think that F-16/18 proposals will be revoked.

I loved how you mentioned the F-18 and Gripen but left out the F-16 in your comment.
I am telling you guys, a system like the F-16 is a waste of our resources. Its already exceeded its limits for modernisation which means it will not be able to keep up with the newer jets post-2027. We will be stuck with an obsolete platform for the rest of its service life.
We need the Tejas. Its a new platform that can be (and is already being) upgraded till the end of its service life in the 2050s. Its still however worthwhile to look at F-18. Tejas numbers are not going up any time soon and we have a gaping hole to fill in our defences. Best case scenario:-
200 F-18 Advanced super hornet
300 Tejas LCA

But don't go for the F-16. I am telling you:-

In any case, Gripen won't win. Greater requirement from this tender for single engine fighter is ToT on turbofan technology required for the development of a suitable engine for AMCA. This is where SAAB's partner Volvo aero can't help. So more or less this is a single vendor tender. Considering American don't back out on ToT.

Why would America back out on TOT?

And yeah, you are right. Considering that we are getting the same engine in Girpen that the LCA has, it is quite a bummer.
BTW, in the wake of the French offer on Kaveri, why are we looking for more ToT in engines?

 

[Narasimh]

What did the IAF envision at the start? Did they envision Tejas as FGFA or as a MiG 21 replacement?

Well, By that I meant about the concessions that IAF asked in ASR because IAF repeatedly brings that up and the delays with LCA program which impacted its force structure planning.
But I am in no way advocating IAF has got something less in capability that would not fill the operational gap Migs would leave. My entire point was in fact explaining that IAF has a better capability with Tejas and will only get better.