ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[dude00720]

Let us Get Real on a few things. If we dont develop Kaveri No one will do ToT on Kaveri for us. The rest is bound to be just talk. R & D needs to plan for an aircraft which is ahead of it's times by 2030 not contemporary for 2022.

About Rafale helping , <Pinch of salt> . See, we're buying Rafale. 5th Gen is primarily stealth + electronic interference. We under cross-section stealth via tejas. and absorption technology in Tejas is actually world class.

Let us focus R &D on the engine and Radars.

To be fair, S400 is a good step to manage our operational readiness.

I do think that 120 is quite a decent number to create a manufacturing setup. But,Tejas MK-2 needs to speed up. We need a demo flight ASAP.

Once, that happens, we will have the cat among pigeons. Or, in current terms, a Surgical strike in the aircraft Market.

 

[Pash]

This is question is wrong thread but related to TEJAS,
What is current scenario of "Kaveri" engine development? Do French are helping to fix it?
How about slow and delayed production of Tejas?
Do we should go for F-16 and it would help as or kill our Tejas?
Mirage 2000 or upgrade version for IAF?
Etc...
Thanks for your answers

 

[tharun]

Mass production of tejas will happen only when we have fully combat ready plane..
At present we need a 15 meters tejas with AESA radar and fully sensor fused and more fuel carrying capability...

 

[ersakthivel]

The whole media is running after a letter, IAF official have not put any requirement ..

This letter can be just a measure to make sure HAL get on work ..

No Kunal,

It seems that the higher leadership of this country is once again landing us all in a soup,

Recent reports quote an orders size of 300 for "make In India" single engine fighter!!

IAF is making sure the production line of tejas mk1 quietly shuts down ten years down the line with no orders for tejas mk2!!!

because if IAF buys 200 plus F-16 or Gripen it is the end of the line for tejas mk2.

Because F-16, Gripen have similar specs like tejas mk2 & will already be in full production by the time IAF tejas mk2 take sit first test flight.

It is simply stupid to buy 200 plus F-16 or gripen both offer no significant improvement in IAF capacity over SU-30 MKi or tejas ,

I's okay if 100 F-16s are bought for getting GE 414 engine tech. I am 100% sure that US wont transfer the Single crystal blade, thermobaric ceramic coating , BLISK tech , They will lie endlessly & wiggle out at the last moment.

The J-20 chinese flew in the airshow a couple of days back is hugely underpowered compared to PAKFA or F-35 or F-22.

But chinese will field them in hundreds , because right now no one south china sea has any better weapon & by the time J-20 engine production matures their engine will be ready.

russians too are fielding PAKFA with SU-35 engines & wont wait for higher thrust engine development,

But IAF is buying a 50 year old design F-16 & rejecting the state of the art tejas mk2, by sealing its fate before it is even born!!

let see how things turn out in coming months, If manohar Parrikar is not upto the task tejas will meet the same fate of marut. Just a museum piece.

 

[ersakthivel]

Mass production of tejas will happen only when we have fully combat ready plane..
At present we need a 15 meters tejas with AESA radar and fully sensor fused and more fuel carrying capability...

FR-16 is a fully matured combat plane now,

Guess what??

LM is closing down the production line & shipping the 50 year old design to india!!


In contrast they are spending billions on not even "IOC" F-35 ,

Chinese J-20 that is going into production by next year will fully mature in 2030 by most optimistic estimate!!!

PAKFA is entering production with no working ASEA radar, specialized folded wing air to air missiles, Rafale type sensor fusion , or SPECRA, & with a decade old Su-35 engine.

Infact the PAKFA engine is yet to be meaningfully flight tested!!!

IAF is fooling us all by "fully ready" logic. By this logic we are forever condemned to fly near obsolete, watered down export versions palmed off on our head by foreign dealers with huge bribes to every one in the decision making line!!!

Simply tech illiterate IAF must be relieved of the "ASR fixing duties"

I'm 100% sure that the J-20 that goes into production has NOT met PLAF "ASR"!!

I'm 100% sure that the PAKFA that goes into production has NOT met RuAF "ASR"!!

I'm 100% sure that the F-35 that goes into production has NOT met USAF "ASR"!!

ASRs are guide lines & planes are rushed to production in tranche 1, tranche 2 mode , to establish full scale production shedule , & areas od shortfall are fixed on the fly is what the world is doing.

Finally when everything on them is fully matured they are retired & sold to fools like us !!, while their makers start investing billions to produce "green field not mature, no IOC fighters"!!!

F-16s , Gripens that IAF is lining up to buy in 200, 300 numbers followed exactly the same philosophy.

IAF has already revised AMCA ASR three time from 2002 to 2013, Rightly the design is sitting in the drawing board for more than dsecade.

IA used 7+ mm calibre rifle, Asked DRDO to develop 5.62 rifle, Now when INSAS is fully matuted, it is once again going for global tender to buy 7plus MM rifles!!

IA asked DRDO to develop 4 men state of the art armor protection 60 ton Arjun MBT & now saying it wants 50 ton MBT & floating a global tender for FICV!!

The circus never ends,

ISRO designed satelites to match their rocket capacity, & succeeded.

If some one sits on ISRO's head & asked for a heavier satelite exceeding the payload limit of its rocket every time by changing revising their ASRs, it wont even be able to launch Diwali rockets!!!

But higherups in MOD, IAF, IA are hell bent on making local products lab rats forever by changing the goal post every year,

With recent BBC report on bribes by HONEYWELL, EMBRAER, & russians into arms dealer accounts, the reason is not far to seek,

IAF changed the WVR missile spec from R-60 to R-73 E, which led to the entire redesign of the wing & delayed the project by a whole year,

IAF now says it wont order more than 40 tejas mk1, if they dont have ASEA, refuelling probe, OBORG, etc, etc, while flying close to 200 near obsolete migs that dont have these tech for the next ten years!!

So tejas mk1A spec was ironed out, meaning "WAIT" signal.

So no indian investor is going to venture his neck out to even think about putting money in a new tejas production,line!!!

Now once Parriokar arm twisted IAF to commit to 120 tejas mk1s + mk1As, now IAF wants 200-300 foreign single engine fighters!!!

So any prospect of any pvt industry even thinking about puttin money into tejas line is still born!!
because after these 200 F-16s or gripens , simply there will be no space for tejas mk2.

If IAF straight away committed itslef to 250 tejas variants, there is a prospect of either HAL or ovt ind trying to put another line, in the hope untill tejas mk2 develops fully at least there will be more orders for tejas k1A versions!!!

but this has been foreclosed now!!

Tejas mk1A with ASEA radar, Akash, Derby, R-73 E, Python-HMDS combo, SPJ , lowest frontal RCS in IAF, ability to operate from Leh & drier indian atmosphere with optimal performance, upgradable without any one's permission , far exceeds the requirement of any single engined fighter for IAF,

So nothing prevents them from firming up 300 Tejas orders & ensuring more hands & money into tejas mk1A, mk2 effort with either a new line from indian or foreign MNCs or HAL.

Sadly IAF wants to finish tejas mk2

 

[ersakthivel]

In any case, Gripen won't win. Greater requirement from this tender for single engine fighter is ToT on turbofan technology required for the development of a suitable engine for AMCA. This is where SAAB's partner Volvo aero can't help. So more or less this is a single vendor tender. Considering American don't back out on ToT.

Mark my words,

This requirement of TOT for jet engine tech , wont be in the final F-16 deal!!

Just weeks before NewsPapers were full of stories that France has agreed for , "SNECMA- GTRE " uprated kaveri TOT as offset obligation for 36 rafale deal, & I couldn't believe my eyes,

then in the final deal , you don't have a word on it, When I tweeted to Nitin gokhale, for reasons behind this,

he said ,"it is under negotiation". I know when this negotiations will end!!

Now rafale offset is fixed on the export value of Reliance-Dassault JV. thats all!!

In the same way this :engine TOT: will be flashed before us for months, & won't be seen in the final deal!!!

They will say that , considering future export & worldwide spares sale value, of potential F-16 deal, & sipns off for the economy, it is justified if IAF buys it without engine tech!!!

reality will be all critical components of all these spares will be made in US by small specialized firm & second line sub assemblies will be made here & this golden screw dirver tech will be touted as TOT as usual.

The present F-16 plant has no facility for either making ASEA TR modules or GE 414's SC blades, BLISk * ceramic coatings because they are being made in other MNC plants in US, who also supply to other USAF fighters world wide,

they will never ship their shop here, Everything else like composite body panels, tyres, fuselage parts, wings, will be made here with insignificant new tech induction, thats all

 

[republic_roi97]

Mark my words,

This requirement of TOT for jet engine tech , wont be in the final F-16 deal!!

Just weeks before NewsPapers were full of stories that France has agreed for , "SNECMA- GTRE " uprated kaveri TOT as offset obligation for 36 rafale deal, & I couldn't believe my eyes,

then in the final deal , you don't have a word on it, When I tweeted to Nitin gokhale, for reasons behind this,

he said ,"it is under negotiation". I know when this negotiations will end!!

Now rafale offset is fixed on the export value of Reliance-Dassault JV. thats all!!

In the same way this :engine TOT: will be flashed before us for months, & won't be seen in the final deal!!!

They will say that , considering future export & worldwide spares sale value, of potential F-16 deal, & sipns off for the economy, it is justified if IAF buys it without engine tech!!!

reality will be all critical components of all these spares will be made in US by small specialized firm & second line sub assemblies will be made here & this golden screw dirver tech will be touted as TOT as usual.

The present F-16 plant has no facility for either making ASEA TR modules or GE 414's SC blades, BLISk * ceramic coatings because they are being made in other MNC plants in US, who also supply to other USAF fighters world wide,

they will never ship their shop here, Everything else like composite body panels, tyres, fuselage parts, wings, will be made here with insignificant new tech induction, thats all

Ok then, will we be able to develop and fine tune Kaveri on our own ? If yes, can you tell us anything that you might know about progress made on it ?

 

[m-jeri]

@ersakthivel

You my friend.... You.

I just wanted to cry. but truth hurts.

 

[ersakthivel]

Ok then, will we be able to develop and fine tune Kaveri on our own ? If yes, can you tell us anything that you might know about progress made on it ?

We have to do it ourself, No one will help us,

With so many billions up their sleeves & so many espionage efforts chinese haven't got it yet, So who will help us on this?

We will get zero help from abroad for Fine tuning kaveri ,

Tejas mk2 flies with tried & testes GE 414 engines, So we need not buy F-16 for immediate engine needs,

We can replace GE 414 with uprated kaveri version , when Kaveri is ready, AMCA engine specs nears the Ge 414 in thrust levels,

Mig-29s too can have the uprated kaveri engines,

SO once we finish kaveri effort, we will have close to 500 fighters from AMCA, Mig-29, Tejas mk2, mk1 to fit into, Thats a huge economy of a scale & we can become a powerhouse for jet engines & parts exports,

Also helicopter engines too are derived from the same tech , SO benefits are huge.

So we ccan tempt any pvt sector indian company like Bharath forge to have a JV with GTRE, promising them that they will get assure orders of minimum quantity,

Kaveri has matured better than chinese WS engines, Most of its problems have been sorted out , with it even attaining desired dry thrust, Dry thrust is crucial in 5th gen fighters for super cruise,

but I hear that IAF has once again "upgraded their ASR to AMCA with mach 1.5 supercruise!!", which even FGFA , J-20 doesn't have now.

So now GTRE will have to develop an ewer engine for AMCA.

Once Ws is ready, chinese will have a large fleet of J20, J-10 to feed into, So they are spending billions on jet engine development.

but by once again revising engine thrust spec for AMCA & buying 200 F-16s we are also foreclosing massive funds& human resource deployment on kaveri front by reducing future order scope!!!

So By going for large tejas mk1, mk2 fleet with GE 404, 414 engines , we have a real chance of kick starting local mil aviation sector with global economy of scales, & port our engine on them, when they are ready ,

it is the same model followed by SAAB,

BY buying 300 F-16s that have no use of Ge 414 thrust levels , we are curtailing the future engine development scope also(i.e if the deal ends up with no TOT for SCbs, BLISK)

 

[Butter Chicken]

Even if we export F-16 Block 70,who will buy?Everyone is replacing F-16 with F-35

 

[kstriya]

We have to do it ourself, No one will help us,

With so many billions up their sleeves & so many espionage efforts chinese haven't got it yet, So who will help us on this?

We will get zero help from abroad for Fine tuning kaveri ,

Tejas mk2 flies with tried & testes GE 414 engines, So we need not buy F-16 for immediate engine needs,

We can replace GE 414 with uprated kaveri version , when Kaveri is ready, AMCA engine specs nears the Ge 414 in thrust levels,

Mig-29s too can have the uprated kaveri engines,

SO once we finish kaveri effort, we will have close to 500 fighters from AMCA, Mig-29, Tejas mk2, mk1 to fit into, Thats a huge economy of a scale & we can become a powerhouse for jet engines & parts exports,

Also helicopter engines too are derived from the same tech , SO benefits are huge.

So we ccan tempt any pvt sector indian company like Bharath forge to have a JV with GTRE, promising them that they will get assure orders of minimum quantity,

Kaveri has matured better than chinese WS engines, Most of its problems have been sorted out , with it even attaining desired dry thrust, Dry thrust is crucial in 5th gen fighters for super cruise,

but I hear that IAF has once again "upgraded their ASR to AMCA with mach 1.5 supercruise!!", which even FGFA , J-20 doesn't have now.

So now GTRE will have to develop an ewer engine for AMCA.

Once Ws is ready, chinese will have a large fleet of J20, J-10 to feed into, So they are spending billions on jet engine development.

but by once again revising engine thrust spec for AMCA & buying 200 F-16s we are also foreclosing massive funds& human resource deployment on kaveri front by reducing future order scope!!!

So By going for large tejas mk1, mk2 fleet with GE 404, 414 engines , we have a real chance of kick starting local mil aviation sector with global economy of scales, & port our engine on them, when they are ready ,

it is the same model followed by SAAB,

BY buying 300 F-16s that have no use of Ge 414 thrust levels , we are curtailing the future engine development scope also(i.e if the deal ends up with no TOT for SCbs, BLISK)

This deal for 300 or whatever number of single engine fighter will be NDA's bofor's in making. We need to ask some straight questions on engine TOT in the Rafale deal with Scema which was marketed before the deal on every social media platform, if not then make a huge cry with the opposition and make this deal impossible to complete and any future purchase of a single engine fighter.

 

[republic_roi97]

This deal for 300 or whatever number of single engine fighter will be NDA's bofor's in making. We need to ask some straight questions on engine TOT in the Rafale deal with Scema which was marketed before the deal on every social media platform, if not then make a huge cry with the opposition and make this deal impossible to complete and any future purchase of a single engine fighter.

Yes A valid point made by @ersakthivel buying these 200-300 odd single engine fighters means another marut like tragedy in the making. We need to somehow, using this forum and other platforms, bring this into light and tell GOI. And it would really be tragic if we have a marut story with Tejas, that would mean that Aviation sector would never mature.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Mark my words,

This requirement of TOT for jet engine tech , wont be in the final F-16 deal!!

Just weeks before NewsPapers were full of stories that France has agreed for , "SNECMA- GTRE " uprated kaveri TOT as offset obligation for 36 rafale deal, & I couldn't believe my eyes,

then in the final deal , you don't have a word on it, When I tweeted to Nitin gokhale, for reasons behind this,

he said ,"it is under negotiation". I know when this negotiations will end!!

Now rafale offset is fixed on the export value of Reliance-Dassault JV. thats all!!

In the same way this :engine TOT: will be flashed before us for months, & won't be seen in the final deal!!!

They will say that , considering future export & worldwide spares sale value, of potential F-16 deal, & sipns off for the economy, it is justified if IAF buys it without engine tech!!!

reality will be all critical components of all these spares will be made in US by small specialized firm & second line sub assemblies will be made here & this golden screw dirver tech will be touted as TOT as usual.

The present F-16 plant has no facility for either making ASEA TR modules or GE 414's SC blades, BLISk * ceramic coatings because they are being made in other MNC plants in US, who also supply to other USAF fighters world wide,

they will never ship their shop here, Everything else like composite body panels, tyres, fuselage parts, wings, will be made here with insignificant new tech induction, thats all

You know when i said "considering Americans don't back out on ToT". I was putting very mildly. Anyway the way i see it there is a Catch 22 situation. I tell why:

1. IAF is yet to start behaving like Navy on long term planning wrt. to indigenisation.

2. Government has very serious requirement to meet in form of turbofan tech for AMCA. AMCA today is very much stalled because of lack of clarity. Right now i can't see from where we can even get it? And if at all IAF will agree to F-414 for AMCA is something baffles me.

3. Government needs to make geo-political alliances to garner support on our own fight on terror. And we know no one will come to our side unless we give them something to bite on.

I really don't see how government could manage all these conflicting situation without pressing thumb on at least one.

 

[cannonfodder]

Very less indication right now. We will see

1. IAF is yet to start behaving like Navy on long term planning wrt. to indigenisation.

Buy engines directly from US. Keep investing in local R&D, I really don't think anyone will be handing over gold laying chicken over to India.

2. Government has very serious requirement to meet in form of turbofan tech for AMCA. AMCA today is very much stalled because of lack of clarity. Right now i can't see from where we can even get it? And if at all IAF will agree to F-414 for AMCA is something baffles me.

Donate money to clinton foundation.. I hope you get what I am saying. In any case, Paki terrorism is what India has to deal on its own.

3. Government needs to make geo-political alliances to garner support on our own fight on terror. And we know no one will come to our side unless we give them something to bite on.

 

[cannonfodder]

Is RTI on single jet foreign AC possibility? I am not sarcastic here, we deserve an explanation. DM is sane person at least he will read an well composed draft on alternatives and concerns.

The way defence procurement is going is serious waste of public resources and nothing short of corruption. If this foreign single jet proposal goes through, LCA is as good as dead. Then wait for 10-15 years more for next window of opportunity with AMCA.

 

[Akshay_Fenix]

Do not worry, LCA is here to stay.

 

[Defcon 1]

Is RTI on single jet foreign AC possibility? I am not sarcastic here, we deserve an explanation. DM is sane person at least he will read an well composed draft on alternatives and concerns.

The way defence procurement is going is serious waste of public resources and nothing short of corruption. If this foreign single jet proposal goes through, LCA is as good as dead. Then wait for 10-15 years more for next window of opportunity with AMCA.

What will you write to DM that he doesn't already know?

How is LCA dead? It has 120 confirmed orders+ 40 aircraft requirement from navy for Mk2. Once we pass 2020, IAF will order its share of Mk2 as well. The production rate of 16 fighters per annum is good and around the world, fighters are produced at same or less rate, except some US fighter aircraft. Kindly explain why do you call LCA dead.

Also, for some people who are advocating buying foreign single engine jet will somehow kill Kaveri, they need to remember Kaveri is already dead, Single engine jet or not. Even if this RFI was not present, DRDO has stopped work on Kaveri. They themselves don't think Kaveri will ever power an Indian jet. So there is no way, we can continue R&D on Kaveri as dude007 is advocating for. The only hope is to get a foreign company to complete Kaveri so that it can be installed on an Indian fighter plane. Or we need to start a new engine program. There is no relation between Kaveri and single engine fighter RFI.

 

[Certified Gipsy]

What will you write to DM that he doesn't already know?

How is LCA dead? It has 120 confirmed orders+ 40 aircraft requirement from navy for Mk2. Once we pass 2020, IAF will order its share of Mk2 as well. The production rate of 16 fighters per annum is good and around the world, fighters are produced at same or less rate, except some US fighter aircraft. Kindly explain why do you call LCA dead.

Also, for some people who are advocating buying foreign single engine jet will somehow kill Kaveri, they need to remember Kaveri is already dead, Single engine jet or not. Even if this RFI was not present, DRDO has stopped work on Kaveri. They themselves don't think Kaveri will ever power an Indian jet. So there is no way, we can continue R&D on Kaveri as dude007 is advocating for. The only hope is to get a foreign company to complete Kaveri so that it can be installed on an Indian fighter plane. Or we need to start a new engine program. There is no relation between Kaveri and single engine fighter RFI.

This is NOT true. K9+ and K10 are very much in development and are undergoing mean time between overhaul tests. Please do not misinform.

 

[Defcon 1]

This is NOT true. K9+ and K10 are very much in development and are undergoing mean time between overhaul tests. Please do not misinform.

Source?????

And 30 characters?

 

[IndianHawk]

How is LCA dead? It has 120 confirmed orders+ 40 aircraft requirement from navy for Mk2

Does the naval mk2 will become iaf mk2???

If not then we won't even have a prototype for iaf mk2 by 2020.
As of now iaf mk1a will fly around 2020.

they need to remember Kaveri is already dead,

And we were hearing that it needs 25-30% more work to be done???

There is no relation between Kaveri and single engine fighter RFI.

There is one though. We will demand TOT for engine tech.
If they were going for a new engine from scratch they should have already started.
But they didn't and currently have no plans to .
That means Kaveri has to be revived.