ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[PaliwalWarrior]

36 months? Really. When the order for 20 given? Search. In March 2005. Even if radar changes or some other minor change, a lot of components like structural components do not change. The body, wings, engine are same.

If engine changes u think the body , air intakes airframe dosenot change ?

So when people on this forum shout that if lca mk2 uses ge414 in engine it will need a bigger air intakes to handle higher airflow then they are fools

Becuase as per you there will be no change in the airframe right ?

Tomorrow if we want to fit Russian engine or ej engine for exports even then there will be no change in airframe right ?

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

We are talking of an order given TEN years back.
I understand that new order of 100 will have a lead time.

Let me repeat, the changes due to IOC-2 and FOC are small (only a few LRU are affected). The plane is same structurally. HAL had enough time to order components even if assembly not done. Assembly takes 7 months as far as I know.

How many changes happened between IOC 1 and IOC 2
That is in hindsight / post facto
You can now after the ioc2 that there were only few changes

Cab you tell before ioc2 how many changes would have satisfied the iaf ?

And when you speak about orders in 2005 when was IOC achieved ?

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

The actual aircraft was delivered in March 2015. The problem is you are typing comments without anything in your head. Research the topic and then come back.

OK so why don't you start your own company and take on the HAL and say give me this order I can do it better in 6 months ?

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

36 months? Really. When the order for 20 given? Search. In March 2005. Even if radar changes or some other minor change, a lot of components like structural components do not change. The body, wings, engine are same.

The issue is not how or what changes

The issue is finalisation uin if IOC standard by iaf

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

@myana, you are firing blanks.

What is the point of HAL given the manufacturing of LCA. HAL makes prototypes, limited series, as well as production. This is not the first LCA manufactured that HAL has to wait.

IOC-2 was achieved in Dec 2013. So by your logic there should be no SP1, as there is no concurrent engineering, and it takes 36 months to produce one aircraft. However we know reliably that SP1 was rolled out in March 2015.

@myana, your information is wrong.

Right so let me tell you that lca sp1 and sp2 are not as per ioc standard

They were put into production before IOC and they are pre ioc standard

Iaf has issues with that too

Read this

https://disqus.com/home/discussion/...r_the_right_lca_tejas_for_the_first_squadron/

 

[garg_bharat]

Right so let me tell you that lca sp1 and sp2 are not as per ioc standard

This is speculation. I think SP1 is waiting for new radome.
They can always change LRUs if something is updated. Do not assume that an aircraft delivered to IAF will stay static forever. Problems will be detected in service and fixed.

Let us see the developments. I think govt is serious when it says something, and govt wont wait for anybody forever.

 

[garg_bharat]

How many changes happened between IOC 1 and IOC 2
That is in hindsight / post facto
You can now after the ioc2 that there were only few changes

Cab you tell before ioc2 how many changes would have satisfied the iaf ?

And when you speak about orders in 2005 when was IOC achieved ?

So you appreciate that order was given in expectation of IOC, but there was big delay in IOC. Is it fault of MOD to give advance order?? The order was given so that HAL can plan production.

You people are deceived by PSU talk. HAL's production facilities should have been ready much before IOC-2 but were not. I agree there are multiple reasons but the production agency will always get the largest share of blame.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

This is speculation. I think SP1 is waiting for new radome.
They can always change LRUs if something is updated. Do not assume that an aircraft delivered to IAF will stay static forever. Problems will be detected in service and fixed.

Let us see the developments. I think govt is serious when it says something, and govt wont wait for anybody forever.

Ni it is not speculation

Sp1 & sp2 are pre ioc config STD

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

So you appreciate that order was given in expectation of IOC, but there was big delay in IOC. Is it fault of MOD to give advance order?? The order was given so that HAL can plan production.

You people are deceived by PSU talk. HAL's production facilities should have been ready much before IOC-2 but were not. I agree there are multiple reasons but the production agency will always get the largest share of blame.

Even if advance orders are given without IOC no planning could happen nor any plans put into execution

 

[akk]

Going by the current arguments that planning would not happen without orders....
1. Planning for 1a hasn't begun since orders are not placed
2. 404 engines havent been ordered. Once ordered they will take several years to begin delivery
3. Since production for 404 has actually stopped, there may not be any 404 left. The last I heard, ge was planning to close 404 line. This has already happened with iaf with (not sure....but an American aircraft...they decided too late to order).
4. A new engine?.....selection..testing etc etc
In nutshell, I am unable to understand how hal will produce 8 squadrons in 8 years.
This brings up larger issue.....are they really serious about defense? I am no congis supporter, but what good this government done to defense. A single piece of equipment to their credit except promises?
Stuck everywhere....no contracts...
I don't care if they want kickbacks or not like congis but it is of paramount importance to get equipment.

 

[Gessler]

If engine changes u think the body , air intakes airframe dosenot change ?

So when people on this forum shout that if lca mk2 uses ge414 in engine it will need a bigger air intakes to handle higher airflow then they are fools

Becuase as per you there will be no change in the airframe right ?

Tomorrow if we want to fit Russian engine or ej engine for exports even then there will be no change in airframe right ?

That's right, implementing the F414 engine in LCA airframe is impossible without expanding the air inlets, and changing up the internals to a considerable extent, which means basically re-designing them. The airflow requirements of 414 are higher than the 404 engine that Mk.1 Tejas uses right now.

This is why Mk.2 comes with larger inlets...among other changes like longer overall airframe length, possibly a larger wing area (I remember reading about it), greater internal space for fuel, and possibly redesigned nose section.

Some sources reported that a frameless canopy was also being developed for the Mk-2.

Bottom-line is, if anyone thinks they can simply "upgrade" an existing Mk-1 or Mk-1A into a Mk-2 model, they are simply misinformed & delusional.

 

[Anupu]

That's right, implementing the F414 engine in LCA airframe is impossible without expanding the air inlets, and changing up the internals to a considerable extent, which means basically re-designing them. The airflow requirements of 414 are higher than the 404 engine that Mk.1 Tejas uses right now.

This is why Mk.2 comes with larger inlets...among other changes like longer overall airframe length, possibly a larger wing area (I remember reading about it), greater internal space for fuel, and possibly redesigned nose section.

Some sources reported that a frameless canopy was also being developed for the Mk-2.

Bottom-line is, if anyone thinks they can simply "upgrade" an existing Mk-1 or Mk-1A into a Mk-2 model, they are simply misinformed & delusional.

How long before we see a Tejas MKII prototype according to you ?

 

[Gessler]

How long before we see a Tejas MKII prototype according to you ?

"See" as in a static rig? Give it anywhere between 2 to 3 years from now. First flight could happen within 2020, but that's being optimistic. DRDO/other agencies have given 2024 as the in-service induction date as per latest news. But that is if all things go according to schedule (they never do) and there still are many issues that need to be defined.

As of today even the agencies designing it are unsure exactly which radar, IRST, refueling system, cockpit displays & electronics will have to be implemented in the prototypes, and which in the production version.

I'd say ...

Elta EL/M-2052 AESA for the first few, until an indigenous AESA-MMR is developed. More of the same type if not. As yet no binding decision has been taken whether an internal or external IRST is needed. If internal, something compact like the Selex Gallileo SKYWARD series could be preferred (same series is used on Gripen), if external, we have various options from the West.

Cobham is almost a certain as the supplier for the internal IFR system, they supplied for Mk-1 as well. But which particular system is undecided, much will depend on Mk-2's nose design and cockpit/fuselage setup.

They are also evaluating the idea for incorporating a full cockpit package (including MFDs, instrumentation, HUD, etc.) based on a proven architecture. The Israeli Cockpit-NG setup is still being studied. If it does not materialize, a more fragmented approach may have to be taken.

 

[garg_bharat]

The issue is not how or what changes

The issue is finalisation uin if IOC standard by iaf

You are parroting falsehoods. Your logic is flawed. The industrial capacity is built BEFORE production starts. The specs of a component may change, but that does not means infrastructure is not created.

HAL does not have floor space to accommodate a larger line. Is it related to IOC? It is just resistance to LCA and poor planning.

Mahindra has created a large facility in Bangalore IN ADVANCE. It is underused now. Private sector is waiting for Govt to change policy. They want to build.

 

[garg_bharat]

LCA orders can go to 400 for Mark1A. 100 is only initial order.
If Mark2 is successful, then total orders can exceed 1000.

The issue is India needs these small fighters. They are cheap to produce, and cheap to run. They fit into current available airbase infrastructure. Govt realises this.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Going by the current arguments that planning would not happen without orders....
1. Planning for 1a hasn't begun since orders are not placed
2. 404 engines havent been ordered. Once ordered they will take several years to begin delivery
3. Since production for 404 has actually stopped, there may not be any 404 left. The last I heard, ge was planning to close 404 line. This has already happened with iaf with (not sure....but an American aircraft...they decided too late to order).
4. A new engine?.....selection..testing etc etc
In nutshell, I am unable to understand how hal will produce 8 squadrons in 8 years.
This brings up larger issue.....are they really serious about defense? I am no congis supporter, but what good this government done to defense. A single piece of equipment to their credit except promises?
Stuck everywhere....no contracts...
I don't care if they want kickbacks or not like congis but it is of paramount importance to get equipment.

Well just look at this - thus way

Dasault which has a plant established for mfg 33 rafales a year

Now they are currently mfg 11 / year

They have publicly said that to raise production to 33/from 11 it will take them 3 years

Think even with a ready-made mfg plant / assembly line to raise production from 11 to 33 will take them 3 years

Now consider tejas situation - HAL to double production has to actually set up new assembly lines - so it's going to take some time

But that is actually not a bad thing

Why

Because
Let's take a look at tejas order book & delivery schedules

Tejas mk1 20
2016. 4
2017 8
2018. 8

Tejas mk1a. 106 or 100

Now consider that tejas mk1a will be ready by 2017 for iaf OK and enter production by 2018

Also it will take 2 years for HAL to set up new assembly line to increase capacity to 16 from present 8 lca / year

So
The period from 2016-2018 is a period where

HAL will mfg foc STD lca mk1 20 nos

Also ada HAL will work on tejas mk1a and get it ready for production

Also being the first production run of tejas any teething issues will come out and resolved before the production run of tejas mk1a at rate of 16/ year

When in 2018 tejas mk1a foes into production. It will directly hit the floor at rate of 16/year there won't be any slow ramp up like in the case of tejas mk1

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

LCA orders can go to 400 for Mark1A. 100 is only initial order.
If Mark2 is successful, then total orders can exceed 1000.

The issue is India needs these small fighters. They are cheap to produce, and cheap to run. They fit into current available airbase infrastructure. Govt realises this.

That is actually the problem

Giving orders piecemeal

If 100/is only the initial order - why not place the full order at one go with req delivery schedule ?

It will help HAL & vendors to get the nfg systems in gear

See the problem of this us only initial order mindset

If HAL gets order for 100 with 8-10 yrs delivery schedule it will setup mfg facility for just that
Delivering 100 over 8-10 years

Now suddenly you triple the orders say we want 200 more

Since it takes time increase mfg capacity it will lead to anguish & frustration like you are showing right Now without understanding a single thing

If the order for 300 would have been placed at one go then nfg facility setup time would have been less

So best is to give the while order at one go

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

You are parroting falsehoods. Your logic is flawed. The industrial capacity is built BEFORE production starts. The specs of a component may change, but that does not means infrastructure is not created.

HAL does not have floor space to accommodate a larger line. Is it related to IOC? It is just resistance to LCA and poor planning.

Mahindra has created a large facility in Bangalore IN ADVANCE. It is underused now. Private sector is waiting for Govt to change policy. They want to build.

What facility mahindra has created in advance ?

How many machines / jigs / autoclaves for composites has it installed in its facility ?

So you mean having floor space is all that is needed to setup the facility ?

Has mahindra but a runway ?
Because before delivery of aircraft the nfg runs a lot of tests and carries out taxu trials & test flights

 

[Anupu]

"See" as in a static rig? Give it anywhere between 2 to 3 years from now. First flight could happen within 2020, but that's being optimistic. DRDO/other agencies have given 2024 as the in-service induction date as per latest news. But that is if all things go according to schedule (they never do) and there still are many issues that need to be defined.

As of today even the agencies designing it are unsure exactly which radar, IRST, refueling system, cockpit displays & electronics will have to be implemented in the prototypes, and which in the production version.

I'd say ...

Elta EL/M-2052 AESA for the first few, until an indigenous AESA-MMR is developed. More of the same type if not. As yet no binding decision has been taken whether an internal or external IRST is needed. If internal, something compact like the Selex Gallileo SKYWARD series could be preferred (same series is used on Gripen), if external, we have various options from the West.

Cobham is almost a certain as the supplier for the internal IFR system, they supplied for Mk-1 as well. But which particular system is undecided, much will depend on Mk-2's nose design and cockpit/fuselage setup.

They are also evaluating the idea for incorporating a full cockpit package (including MFDs, instrumentation, HUD, etc.) based on a proven architecture. The Israeli Cockpit-NG setup is still being studied. If it does not materialize, a more fragmented approach may have to be taken.

Looks like it's going to be a bit more different than MK1 than I thought. question: Wouldn't it have a lot of commonality with MK-IA? I mean are they planning a different refueling system, and display & cockpit electronics even from MK-IA?

 

[Gessler]

Looks like it's going to be a bit more different than MK1 than I thought.

You can safely consider Mk.1/1A and Mk.2 as two different aircraft. It's not like as in F-16A and F-16C wherein the same airframe is carried over and only internal equipment changes.

question: Wouldn't it have a lot of commonality with MK-IA?

Mk.1A is simply an electronics upgrade over Mk.1...it's supposed to have a new radar, fixed refueling probe addition etc. It is no different over the Mk.1 airframe.

Level of commonality between Mk.1A and Mk.2 depends on which equipment is ultimately selected. The radar might be common (emphasis on the 'might be' part), but other than that most everything will change.

I mean are they planning a different refueling system, and display & cockpit electronics even from MK-IA?

Reportedly, they want a retractable refueling probe on Mk-2, that's definitely different from the fixed one on Mk.1A. The cockpit part is, as I said, undecided yet. Ofcourse the many future techs of Mk.2 including new situational awareness systems (like IRST, new RWR etc.), electronic warfare suite, HMDS, new engine and everything will warrant a much-improved level of cockpit sensor-fusion.

It is for this reason that a highly integrated system like the Cockpit-NG who's concept image I showed above is being considered. If that system is selected, the instrumentation could look quite like the F-35 cockpit....with the possibility of a single large central MFD.