ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[Neelkanth]

With American engine, Israel radar, Russia/Israel weapon system, how can you call "an entire supply chain from scratch".

air frame, flight control laws software, design testing, human resource, all form scratch... 60% of the parts by value are domestic. the biggest detriment was no human resource to leverage upon, and manufacturers to supply parts... plus a decade of sanctions didn't make the task any easier.

Throwing an engine, a radar and weapons actually doesn't make an aircraft... and this was started when there were almost zero parts of aerospace industry were being manufactured in India. E.G. Brazil , historically, has an ecosystem of aerospace, whereas industry we had none, is yet to make 4.5 gen aircraft.

Equivalent Program comparison is the SAAB Gripen :

Program cost US$ 2.73 billion at 2007 $ rates. (with a volo RM 12 engine which, for obvious reason, is replaced with GE F414, and Radar developed with Ericsson & Marconi (now BAE), now to be replaced with RAVEN ES 05 AESA, Selex ES's US subsidiary Selex Galileo), the original build, however, was estimated to be roughly 67% sourced from Swedish or European suppliers and 33% from the United States [Source] .

LCA project with program of US$1.6 billion (2015 rates) has done comparatively well, even. In 2015, the relative value of US$2.73 billion from 2007 ranges from US$2.97 billion to US$3.38 billion.

So you get a brief idea how a nation "independently" develops an aircraft and how LCA costs are inline. It will always be prudent to buy certain parts of an aircraft off the shelf simply because of economy of scale.

Before you jump into whatabouttrey of US and Russian aerospace industry remember their aviation history very long and deep rooted. also the industrial and economic capacity.

 

[Neelkanth]

The govt is not supposed to sign deals left right & centre with any & everyone

But when it clears some projects it is supposed to move fast & sign the deal for projects already cleared by it

The present govt says that they have cleared deals for more than 150k crore in 2 years then

The next q is how many of those deals cleared have been actually converted into firm contracts ?

Contract negotiations isn't just about the price... Its scope clarifications, and if you had zilch knowledge about how the real world works, where as two parties drive hard negotiations on a deal, you wouldn't be saying this.

BTW You being a constant critic of GoI (Modi/BJP) from Facebook, twitter, every possible defense forum and being a closet froth-mouthing AAP supporter, I appreciate your tenacity. You remind me of ashutosh83b, with a better spell checking software. Gujarat has variety I must say... from the likes Modi to you...

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Lockheed work is not design work. HAL's competency is in license manufacturing. This is what it wants to do. The work obtained in offsets cannot be called competitive work.

When design (means taking risk) is involved, the situation changes.

The issues encountered in HJT-36 are normal, the timeframe is not. Design decisions need to be corrected sometimes. But a trainer project started in 1999 is still pending in 2016. This fact does not inspire confidence.

HAL has more excuses not to deliver on LCA than logic permits. For example the first 4 SP series are nowhere to be seen, God know what state they are on the shop-floor.

@myana, HAL needs to start behaving like a company. Behaving like a govt dept will make it extinct.
Look what is happening to BHEL, which was once a mighty company.

Behaving like a company means investing in tech and machines and people, and taking risks.

1
Do you know what time it takes to mfg a fighter from start ? Almost 36 months

Wrt LCA - HAL is supposed to deliver the first 20 in IOC config right

So tell me when LCA achieved IOC ? - dec 2013

So they can only start building the 1st lca after IOC and finalisation of production standards & drawings - which is somewhere around April may 2014

Now calculate 36 months from there

2.
About HAL acting like a company

It is already doing it - but people like you don't research or don't understand it enough

A
It is investing it's own money ( no govt grants) to develop An 25kn aeroengine

B
It is investing own money & time & effort to develop -HTT 40 & HTT 36

C
It invested it's own money to develop lch td4

D
It proposes to IAF foe PBC - performance based contracts for maintainance of su30mki fleet with guaranteed uptime & penalties on HAL for failure

E
Working on weaponised version of hawk trainers

What these little things indicate is that HAL is trying to diversify from a licence mfgtag to a product focused company

It is trying to develop it's own proprietary products and add value to licence mfgd products

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Lockheed work is not design work. HAL's competency is in license manufacturing. This is what it wants to do. The work obtained in offsets cannot be called competitive work.

When design (means taking risk) is involved, the situation changes.

The issues encountered in HJT-36 are normal, the timeframe is not. Design decisions need to be corrected sometimes. But a trainer project started in 1999 is still pending in 2016. This fact does not inspire confidence.

HAL has more excuses not to deliver on LCA than logic permits. For example the first 4 SP series are nowhere to be seen, God know what state they are on the shop-floor.

@myana, HAL needs to start behaving like a company. Behaving like a govt dept will make it extinct.
Look what is happening to BHEL, which was once a mighty company.

Behaving like a company means investing in tech and machines and people, and taking risks.

Let me tell you one thing

World over in defence

The govts pay pvt companies to develop products

Even in France
Even in EU
Even in us

The format may be different in each case but basic remains the same

In France the govt may ask dasault to develop rafale then to ensure dasault recopus investments it commits firm no of orders with agreed margins and any foreign sales dasault keeps the profits

In some other case like us with big ticket items the format goes like this

2-3/firms are down selected based on their concepts then both enter a competition for prototype stage
Here the money is invested by pvt parties

Then one is finally selected
The losing firm is offered a 20-35% production share of firmed up orders to make them recoup their investments I. The project upto prototype stage

The winning firm is assured recoup of investments by giving them ordes of 65-80%

Elsewhere like in India the govt directly filunds the projects

So total big ticket defence projects funding by the pvt companies themselves is a big myth

Of course such things don't apply to products like bullets or hand guns or artilarry shells etc

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Contract negotiations isn't just about the price... Its scope clarifications, and if you had zilch knowledge about how the real world works, where as two parties drive hard negotiations on a deal, you wouldn't be saying this.

BTW You being a constant critic of GoI (Modi/BJP) from Facebook, twitter, every possible defense forum and being a closet froth-mouthing AAP supporter, I appreciate your tenacity. You remind me of ashutosh83b, with a better spell checking software. Gujarat has variety I must say... from the likes Modi to you...

Contract negotiations isn't just about the price... Its scope clarifications, and if you had zilch knowledge about how the real world works, where as two parties drive hard negotiations on a deal, you wouldn't be saying this.

BTW You being a constant critic of GoI (Modi/BJP) from Facebook, twitter, every possible defense forum and being a closet froth-mouthing AAP supporter, I appreciate your tenacity. You remind me of ashutosh83b, with a better spell checking software. Gujarat has variety I must say... from the likes Modi to you...

Yes Gujarat has variety

From sardar Patel to mahatma Gandhi and even mohd Ali Jinnah and morarji DESAI

All were Gujarati you know ?

All my criticism has been focused on particular policy / action of the govt

Tell me why bjp govt cancelled the submarine tender and then refloated another ?

Tell me why bjp govt cancelled minesweepers tender which was close to finalisation and now again looking for designs / partners ?

 

[Neelkanth]

Yes Gujarat has variety

From sardar Patel to mahatma Gandhi and even mohd Ali Jinnah and morarji DESAI

All were Gujarati you know ?

All my criticism has been focused on particular policy / action of the govt

Tell me why bjp govt cancelled the submarine tender and then refloated another ?

Tell me why bjp govt cancelled minesweepers tender which was close to finalisation and now again looking for designs / partners ?

c'mon... you're not looking for answers... You you are looking for some boogeyman to scream corruption!!... isn't it ? pretty sure no contracts have been cancelled.. the kind you are talking about...
Known you for far too long to fall into this shit... saw your hundred page long thread of tribute to Kejriwal on another forum... shoot and scoot kind... and your twitter BS has been of some great quality too... my mistake to engage with you...

yes if it helps this government is doing a corruption and modi is building himself a palace right below the rastrapati bhawan from the contract kick backs... happy ? good..

 

[HariPrasad-1]

so bhai log in short kitne LCA banne waale hain , kitne ka order pakka hai aur kya keemat hogee and last but not the least what will be the final specs of LCA with regards to its radar, EW, ECM & avionicks and weapons pakage?

8 squadron LCA MK1 and Mk1+ +83 LCA MK@

 

[myana]

1
Do you know what time it takes to mfg a fighter from start ? Almost 36 months

Wrt LCA - HAL is supposed to deliver the first 20 in IOC config right

So tell me when LCA achieved IOC ? - dec 2013

So they can only start building the 1st lca after IOC and finalisation of production standards & drawings - which is somewhere around April may 2014

Now calculate 36 months from there

2.
About HAL acting like a company

It is already doing it - but people like you don't research or don't understand it enough

A
It is investing it's own money ( no govt grants) to develop An 25kn aeroengine

B
It is investing own money & time & effort to develop -HTT 40 & HTT 36

C
It invested it's own money to develop lch td4

D
It proposes to IAF foe PBC - performance based contracts for maintainance of su30mki fleet with guaranteed uptime & penalties on HAL for failure

E
Working on weaponised version of hawk trainers

What these little things indicate is that HAL is trying to diversify from a licence mfgtag to a product focused company

It is trying to develop it's own proprietary products and add value to licence mfgd products

Exactly correct and to add one more point to the argument
when RFI for Design changes for Su30MKI for integration of Brahmos-A was requested Sukhoi & HAL has suggested two separate designs out of which HAL design changes were accepted where Sukhoi changes were not. This demonstrates the understanding of a system even though it is licence manufacturing the plane.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Namaskar @guru-dutt saheb.



Let me put the matter this way.

Akash is heavy yet it is ver fast and travel at Mach 2.8 at low altitude. New faster version with same command guidence is in making which shall have 10 to 12 km higher range. One seeker version is also in making which should have a range of 70 KM Plus. If the missile like akash is delivered at a cost less than 1/5th or 1/10 than what better army and air force can ask for? Akash cost almost 10 to 20% of LRSAM. It took less than 1/10th amount of R & D.

It may not be as potent as LRSAM or other modern missile but the look at the cost at which the punch is delivered. If you see the efficacy of punch deliver at rupee, it will beat every thing. And this is our own missile. We can keep modifying it. We have refined the algorithm a lot. Accuracy has increased a lot.

Same is true with astra. It may not have the best of the seeker but it is very fast and has a top class dual pulse motor. What we beed is to keep modifying that. When we will have the top line seeker technology in a decade, what we will have to do is to just change the seeker and our missile shall become top class.
Bloody desi missiles offer a great advantage over JV or foreign mall.

Look at the tejas. After a lots of ignorance and humiliation, it has bounce back in a big way. It is going to become an another ALH and rudra and LCH for us.

And most important of all is that it provides us a platform to bulid something world class at bloody cheap rate.

well brother no need to get personal

now having said about re inventing the wheel i mean this is 21st centuary and we still not able to make a freaking seeker lolzz look at the wieght of akash for example and then look at its range and then compare it with rival with respect to there seeker tech , range & capabllities heck a nation like south africa is making much much better stuff

sorry but i think making astra and pushing it down the IAF throat is wrong we need to keep doing R&D + reverse ingenearing on all types missiles and when they are on par with the needs of the IAF only then select it till that happens we should buy the best we could and do something what chinese had been doing and look where chinese are today and where we are think about it

 

[garg_bharat]

36 months? Really. When the order for 20 given? Search. In March 2005. Even if radar changes or some other minor change, a lot of components like structural components do not change. The body, wings, engine are same.

 

[myana]

Do people even know how an aircraft is produced rather assembled?
when an aircraft order is placed the concerned OEM/final assembler will putup a tender for sub components or places order for sub components to their concerned manufacturers. The manufacturer (usually MSMEs) manufacture them send to final assembler, then final assembler will quality/functional test the sub component and then is added to the airframe. finally when all the components are assembled the plane has to undergo predefined set of tests for certification once passed will be delivered. So entire process of placing order i.e signature on the line to delivery will take time, for LCA it is 36months and also for Rafale it is 36months but Dassualt said it will deliver the planes earlier because it will give the planes manufactured for French airforce to IAF as French Gov doesn't have money to pay them, french are not that urgency to take the delivery and also give them an edge in negotiating as they are delivering earlier than the stipulated time.

 

[garg_bharat]

http://www.stratpost.com/iaf-waits-for-hal-lca-deliveries-to-go-live

"HAL still has to deliver the first aircraft from the earlier order."

Even SP1 which was delivered with much fanfare is still with HAL.

"Even though the the Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) of the LCA took place in December 2013, HAL has only handed over the delivery documents for the first series production aircraft in January 2015 and not the actual SP1 aircraft. At the time, HAL Chairman Dr RK Tyagi said, “We will produce six aircraft next year (2015-16) and subsequently scale it up to eight and 16 aircraft per year.” No series production aircraft has been delivered to the IAF, since then."

 

[garg_bharat]

Do people even know how an aircraft is produced rather assembled?
when an aircraft order is placed the concerned OEM/final assembler will putup a tender for sub components or places order for sub components to their concerned manufacturers. The manufacturer (usually MSMEs) manufacture them send to final assembler, then final assembler will quality/functional test the sub component and then is added to the airframe. finally when all the components are assembled the plane has to undergo predefined set of tests for certification once passed will be delivered. So entire process of placing order i.e signature on the line to delivery will take time, for LCA it is 36months and also for Rafale it is 36months but Dassualt said it will deliver the planes earlier because it will give the planes manufactured for French airforce to IAF as French Gov doesn't have money to pay them, french are not that urgency to take the delivery and also give them an edge in negotiating as they are delivering earlier than the stipulated time.

We are talking of an order given TEN years back.
I understand that new order of 100 will have a lead time.

Let me repeat, the changes due to IOC-2 and FOC are small (only a few LRU are affected). The plane is same structurally. HAL had enough time to order components even if assembly not done. Assembly takes 7 months as far as I know.

 

[myana]

@garg_bharat Do you know anything called flying Manuals?
Until those are ready IAF will not be flying them even though they have 200 LCAs with them.

 

[myana]

We are talking of an order given TEN years back.
I understand that new order of 100 will have a lead time.

Please read the post #110003 by @PaliwalWarrior point 1 again. I am reiterating please improve your reading comprehension abilities

 

[myana]

We are talking of an order given TEN years back.
I understand that new order of 100 will have a lead time.

Let me repeat, the changes due to IOC-2 and FOC are small (only a few LRU are affected). The plane is same structurally. HAL had enough time to order components even if assembly not done. Assembly takes 7 months as far as I know.

LCA is not a concurrent engineering assembly project. Until all the requirements of IOC2 are met only then will IAF will issue the IOC2 only then will ADA share required final documents.
And you are also missing a point the signature on the line is the date of order not an announcement.

Please do read a concurrent engineering and its problems caused in F35 project google is your friend

 

[garg_bharat]

@myana, you are firing blanks.

What is the point of HAL given the manufacturing of LCA. HAL makes prototypes, limited series, as well as production. This is not the first LCA manufactured that HAL has to wait.

IOC-2 was achieved in Dec 2013. So by your logic there should be no SP1, as there is no concurrent engineering, and it takes 36 months to produce one aircraft. However we know reliably that SP1 was rolled out in March 2015.

@myana, your information is wrong.

 

[garg_bharat]

Please read the post #110003 by @PaliwalWarrior point 1 again. I am reiterating please improve your reading comprehension abilities

You go back, study, form thoughts in your mind, and then write. I can use strong language but avoiding.

 

[garg_bharat]

@garg_bharat Do you know anything called flying Manuals?
Until those are ready IAF will not be flying them even though they have 200 LCAs with them.

The actual aircraft was delivered in March 2015. The problem is you are typing comments without anything in your head. Research the topic and then come back.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

c'mon... you're not looking for answers... You you are looking for some boogeyman to scream corruption!!... isn't it ? pretty sure no contracts have been cancelled.. the kind you are talking about...
Known you for far too long to fall into this shit... saw your hundred page long thread of tribute to Kejriwal on another forum... shoot and scoot kind... and your twitter BS has been of some great quality too... my mistake to engage with you...

yes if it helps this government is doing a corruption and modi is building himself a palace right below the rastrapati bhawan from the contract kick backs... happy ? good..

Where did I speak of corruption or of cancelled contracts ?


I am talking only of delays because of cancellation of ongoing tenders

http://m.rediff.com/news/report/def...al-for-south-korean-minesweepers/20141120.htm