ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

Which role suits LCA 'Tejas' more than others from following options?

  • Interceptor-Defend Skies from Intruders.

    Votes: 342 51.3%
  • Airsuperiority-Complete control of the skies.

    Votes: 17 2.5%
  • Strike-Attack deep into enemy zone.

    Votes: 24 3.6%
  • Multirole-Perform multiple roles.

    Votes: 284 42.6%

  • Total voters
    667
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Pulkit

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Hi Lion Of Punjab SSA:
Kindly let me know the credentials of the author Sitaramarao Yechuri .
The author seems to be confused .

With the advance development in the field of Engines the world is moving towards single engine aircrafts though twin engine have there own advantages.

I am not sure if LCA can be a twin engine aircraft as the frame to support two engines will lead to increase in size weight.

TWIN ENGINE A/C are not economically fit for this role .

the a/c offered by saab is still not a reality just like Tejas MK2 and will be completing at the same time.
Even if there is a delay in Tejas Mk2 (Given the history of IAF HAL) Tejas MK2 shud be the only choice.

span 2018-2022 needs to be understood:

by 2018: New Induction:
30 Tejas MK1 inducted
36 Rafale inducted
70+ Su 30 MKI inducted
2-3 Prototype Tejas MK2
2-3 FGFA Indian Versions

Between 2018-2022: 10 Tejas MK1 remaining inducted
100 Tejas MK2 inducted more on order(with two assembly lines)
50 FGFA inducted
2-3 AMCA prototypes

by 2022 will have a multiple platforms to rely on.
Right now the focus should be on getting Tejas MK2 ready.
Once Tejas Mk2 is ready we can any day accelerate production to meet our requirements.



Build twin-engine LCA – Rafale is short term solution

In a NitiCentral article on December 27, 2014 I suggested that India forget about technology transfer for now, allow complete manufacture in France and in return insist on an accelerated delivery schedule of all 126 Rafale aircraft at a significantly lower price point. In France Narendra Modi announced government to government G2G purchase of 36 Rafale jets to be provided on better terms than Dassault could offer and there is no technology transfer. Modi did what he had to do to respond to the urgency of the situation. It was obvious that negotiation with Dassault was going nowhere and by making a G2G purchase Modi got the job done. As Parrikar said this gives the IAF breathing room to make a proper choice about the long term. Parrikar has been clear that the MMRCA tender will be cancelled and this purchase of 36 aircraft i.e. two squadrons gives a soft landing to the cancellation of the MMRCA tender. If the government buys more Rafale in a follow on order having a total of 3-4 squadrons of Rafale may be enough.

The IAF needs to reach the 45 squadrons mark as soon as possible. That 45 squadrons should consist of a good mix of heavy, medium and light aircraft. The Sukhoi 30 is the heavy aircraft and is supposed to reach a total number of 272 i.e. 15 squadrons but take into consideration periodic crashes and some waiting for maintenance and the available aircraft is somewhat less. The Rafale and Mig-29 would be the medium for about 8-10 squadrons. Then a single engine fighter including the 60 Mirage-2000 aircraft and new LCA would be the light aircraft and should be some 20 squadrons in total. This last category currently includes the 250 Mig-21 and 80 Mig-27 which will be phased out in the next few years. So the need is urgent to say the least.

Now the LCA Tejas Mark-I in its current form is not fully operational so the IAF may not depend upon it and so the Mark-I in the IAF would be 2 squadrons at the most. So essentially the IAF is pinning its hopes on the upgraded Mark-II form which has an upgraded engine providing about 10-15% more power and which will not be available for production till about 2019 and in that Mark-II form the government wants an additional 15 squadrons at least. Now there is no question that development of the Mark-II has to be completed, but the main point I want to make in this article is that in my opinion, the Mark-II LCA will NOT meet the long term needs of the IAF, and the Indian government should NOT contemplate more than 5 squadrons of the Mark-II.

There have been reports that Saab of Sweden has offered to help India with fighter development of single-engine fighters for the IAF. For the IAF requirement for the light single-engine combat fighter the Saab's Gripen is the perfect fit in every possible way except the cost. It is like finding the perfect car except it costs double what you want to pay. So when Saab offers to sell India the Gripen and offers technology transfer and offers to help India develop its own indigenous single-engine combat fighter, you should take it very very seriously, because the project will succeed in almost every way and India will learn a lot in the shortest possible time and the combat jet will work wonderfully well. However, in my humble opinion you will wind up with a product that you no longer want and which will cost you a hell of a lot more than you wanted to spend. Simply put, in the real world if you want something cheap you have to do it yourself.

So, just as I said on December 27, 2014 that India should forget about technology transfer and that is what ultimately happened, I now say to you that India should not try to solve a problem that you are not equipped to solve, India should NOT try to develop a single engine combat fighter jet for use in the IAF. What India SHOULD do instead is to change the problem to one that you know you can solve without help from anyone else. India does not need help from Sweden if you only change the problem to one that is easier to solve. To see what India should be doing, let's backup a little.

Every expert commentator on Indian television seems to believe that the light combat aircraft has to be a single-engine combat fighter. That is the wrong problem to solve. The real reason the LCA was not successful is that it is horribly underpowered. Yes it is true that the Gripen originally used the GE-F404 engine and is now using the GE-F414 engine and that the LCA Tejas Mark-I uses the GE-F404 engine and the Mark-II will use the GE-F414 engine, so at first glance you would say if the Swedish people can do this, why can't we? The obvious answer is that Saab started before world war II and that if you could have done it, you would have done so by now, so obviously HAL does not have as much experience as Saab in designing fighter jets and the proof is that the LCA Tejas Mark-I weighs more than the comparable Saab Gripen and is less aerodynamic. Now if you pay Saab to learn how to improve the LCA so that it can be inducted into the IAF, then you have spent a lot of money for the help and the unit cost of the LCA goes up way too much so it is just not worth it.

So instead of asking Saab for help, why don't you solve an easier problem? I put it to you categorically, that a twin-engine fighter jet can do everything that the LCA was supposed to do and is a hell of a lot easier to design than a single engine combat fighter. If India were to design a larger LCA using two GE-F404 engines to power it, the unit cost will be less than 50 million and it will work on day one. I repeat that the very first prototype that you build will do everything you need the LCA to do and not only that, you will have so much extra power that you can use larger fuel tanks so that you can fly 2000 km more without refuelling. At high altitudes, using two engines will come in handy. Two engines is also more reliable in case of bird strike.

And ultimately having all that extra power allows you to do that true hallmark capability of every supremely successful combat fighter namely variants. Do you know that the F-16 has so many variants that they have run out of the letters of the alphabet? So if you make a twin-engine and have extra power to spend, you can make a variant with large internal fuel tanks, a variant with internal bomb bay i.e. inside the fuselage, a variant with super cruise i.e. the name of the game is no longer that you have 300 aircraft that are identical, but instead that you have a half-dozen variants each honed for a specific mission. The ability to make variants will also allow you to get good export sales, because every customer wants something different.

So, in a nutshell my message to the Indian government is that you seem to be looking at the wrong problem. You already know how to make an LCA, now just build a twin-engine LCA and you will succeed beyond your wildest dreams. You will also satisfy "make in India", you will get a rock bottom unit cost of less than 50 million apiece, and because it is truly indigenous you can export the combat fighter, and because the cost is low you can get 45 squadrons that you need, your aeronautical industry and Indian economy will benefit enormously. All this will happen merely because you look within yourself and ask what it is that India really wants and needs.

Build twin-engine LCA - Rafale is short term solution
 

cannonfodder

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Looks Ambitious to consider all 36 Rafale, 30 Mk1 Tejas, and 2 Mk2 Tejas Prototypes by 2018. Lets keep some realistic targets.. although France has committed to fast track 36 rafale's, it needs to be taken with pinch of salt.
30 Tejas MK1 depends on whether HAL can deliver. Hope to see another production line setup but that depends on additional MK1 ordered by IAF(which I believe should be done)
There will be learning curve for MK2 some delays need to be factored in, so lets see.

Hi Lion Of Punjab SSA:
by 2018: New Induction:
30 Tejas MK1 inducted
36 Rafale inducted
70+ Su 30 MKI inducted
2-3 Prototype Tejas MK2
2-3 FGFA Indian Versions
 
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Pulkit

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Looks Ambitious to consider all 36 Rafale, 30 Mk1 Tejas, and 2 Mk2 Tejas Prototypes by 2018. Lets keep some realistic targets.. although France has committed to fast track 36 rafale's, it needs to be taken with pinch of salt.
30 Tejas MK1 depends on whether HAL can deliver. Hope to see another production line setup but that depends on additional MK1 ordered by IAF(which I believe should be done)
There will be learning curve for MK2 some delays need to be factored in, so lets see.
Thats realistic approach .
HAL has delivered 1 till now and expected 2 more by the end of the year.

next year they will be having production rate of atleast 8.... 16 is expected but thats unrealistic.
so you can easily get 30 by 2018.



36 Rafale will be there by 2018 .They have been conveyed that .
France is giving priority to orders placed by India over there own . Even Egypt order will be kept on hold.

70+ SU in four years in not problem.

Tejas MK2 and FGFA prototypes are also realistic even if this is not met then it will be a disaster .
 

sgarg

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The Tejas delivery at current rate will doom the project. The benefit of small single engine point defence fighter is in numbers, else bigger 2 engine longer range fighters are much better. If number of squadrons are lower than IAF should logically go for bigger planes with higher range. Spread out bases will demand higher range.

Tejas positioning is squarely in slots occupied by mig-21 earlier.
 

sgarg

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Posters must not allude capabilities to Tejas which it does not possess. No point playing the same game as was played with Rafael earlier. For example p2prada said rafale RCS as .01 while it is more like 1 in reality. Tejas is a small point defence fighter and light bomber, its benefit is in numbers. There is no benefit from a small Tejas fleet.
 

cannonfodder

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I hope that everything quoted turns out to be correct.:cool2:

Thats realistic approach .
HAL has delivered 1 till now and expected 2 more by the end of the year.

next year they will be having production rate of atleast 8.... 16 is expected but thats unrealistic.
so you can easily get 30 by 2018.



36 Rafale will be there by 2018 .They have been conveyed that .
France is giving priority to orders placed by India over there own . Even Egypt order will be kept on hold.

70+ SU in four years in not problem.

Tejas MK2 and FGFA prototypes are also realistic even if this is not met then it will be a disaster .
 

Khagesh

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Abandon the Jaguar re-engine idea.
Restrict Rafale to 60 if IAF cooperates on LCA or to 36 if it does not.
About 20 PAKFA, if the FGFA is late which I believe it will be. With option to return as was done with initial Su30s.
Restrict Su-30MKI to 272.
Keep up the research on AMCA and FGFA for howsoever long it takes.

If IAF plays hanky panky with LCA then set up an, Air National Guards or Indian Air Defence Forces, housed with only LCA Mk-1 and LCA Mk-2. The ACM of IAF, can be allowed some dog and pony show, full honors, every 3 months in such an Air National Guards or Indian Air Defence Forces.

Off course any count of aircrafts in the Air National Guards or Indian Air Defence Forces should be after reducing the count in IAF.
 

sgarg

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It is clear that HAL has not ramped up Tejas production to 8 per year as promised. At 8 per year, HAL was supposed to deliver 20 IOC standard fighters within 2014-2017 timeframe. Only one SP1 has been delivered at close of 16 months.

It is unclear what progress has been made by HAL lately, so let us see how it turns out. The minister wants 30 Tejas to be rolled out by 2018. This is possible ONLY if capacity is ramped up quickly to 16 (and not 8) in light of delays already encountered.
 

pmaitra

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Abandon the Jaguar re-engine idea.
Restrict Rafale to 60 if IAF cooperates on LCA or to 36 if it does not.
About 20 PAKFA, if the FGFA is late which I believe it will be. With option to return as was done with initial Su30s.
Restrict Su-30MKI to 272.
Keep up the research on AMCA and FGFA for howsoever long it takes.

If IAF plays hanky panky with LCA then set up an, Air National Guards or Indian Air Defence Forces, housed with only LCA Mk-1 and LCA Mk-2. The ACM of IAF, can be allowed some dog and pony show, full honors, every 3 months in such an Air National Guards or Indian Air Defence Forces.

Off course any count of aircrafts in the Air National Guards or Indian Air Defence Forces should be after reducing the count in IAF.
Interesting suggestion.

I think we should also debate a policy. GoI and MoD should set up a fixed sum of money as budget. Any amount of money spent in domestic weapons will be matched with the same amount of money by GoI in the following budget. The allocation shall be compartmentalized as per the three services.

Give it some fancy name, like "Patriotic Defence Industrialization Policy," or "Swadeshi Shashtra Policy," or just re-cycle the existing slogan "Make in India," even if all we are doing is bribing these people to buy Indian made arms. Some of them are probably being offered bribes by foreign arms dealers anyway.
 

sgarg

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@pmaitra, funds are NOT a problem for Tejas. Nobody is blocking funds anymore. The reasons now could be institutional sloth, people working at cross-purposes, foreign influence etc.
The minister has said clearly that he wants Tejas made as fast as possible. I do not know what more is to be said.
 
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ersakthivel

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Hi Lion Of Punjab SSA:
Kindly let me know the credentials of the author Sitaramarao Yechuri .
The author seems to be confused .

With the advance development in the field of Engines the world is moving towards single engine aircrafts though twin engine have there own advantages.

I am not sure if LCA can be a twin engine aircraft as the frame to support two engines will lead to increase in size weight.

TWIN ENGINE A/C are not economically fit for this role .

the a/c offered by saab is still not a reality just like Tejas MK2 and will be completing at the same time.
Even if there is a delay in Tejas Mk2 (Given the history of IAF HAL) Tejas MK2 shud be the only choice.

span 2018-2022 needs to be understood:

by 2018: New Induction:
30 Tejas MK1 inducted
36 Rafale inducted
70+ Su 30 MKI inducted
2-3 Prototype Tejas MK2
2-3 FGFA Indian Versions

Between 2018-2022: 10 Tejas MK1 remaining inducted
100 Tejas MK2 inducted more on order(with two assembly lines)
50 FGFA inducted
2-3 AMCA prototypes

by 2022 will have a multiple platforms to rely on.
Right now the focus should be on getting Tejas MK2 ready.
Once Tejas Mk2 is ready we can any day accelerate production to meet our requirements.
Ever heard of the word ,"******"?

that was the exact word that came to mind after reading it. tejas is not under powered ,In fact it has much higher thrust to weight ratio than Mirage-2000!!! ANd can easily shoot down mirage-2000 in a dog fight if you go by the figures of TWR and wing loading.

Truth is Gripen C has lower thrust to weight ratio than tejas and much lower wing loading too. So infact gripen C is more underpowered than tejas mk1 and most likely tejas mk2 will have higher TWR than gripen E considering the fact that gripen E weight has already crossed 8 tons.

SO first the guy who wrote this piece does not even have a basic understanding about what he is writing.

Also most of the specs for foreign fighters are given in ISDA conditions were temp is 20 deg around. But all tejas data are given for hot indian 30 deg plus atmospheric conditions. Those famed foreign fighters will never reach their peak performance in demanding indian conditions. The reason is higer indian tempp saps ten percent of engine thrust and 12 percent of wing lift.

Without even having any basic understanding of such info, writing that SAAB's experience makes gripen over powered and tejas is under powered because HAL lacks experience is what we call jackass stuff.

The most pitiable point is the endless rant about F-16!!! Due to depp stall issues the F-16 is restricted to 25 deg AOA in real world while even in mk1 tejas has cleared 26 deg AOA till now!!!

So, in a nutshell my message to the Indian government is that you seem to be looking at the wrong problem. You already know how to make an LCA, now just build a twin-engine LCA and you will succeed beyond your wildest dreams. You will also satisfy "make in India", you will get a rock bottom unit cost of less than 50 million apiece, and because it is truly indigenous you can export the combat fighter, and because the cost is low you can get 45 squadrons that you need, your aeronautical industry and Indian economy will benefit enormously. All this will happen merely because you look within yourself and ask what it is that India really wants and needs.
In a nutshell the guy should know what he is writing first. ANd there will be no twin engined LCA. WHy? Because we are already running AMCA program.
 
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ersakthivel

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@pmaitra, funds are NOT a problem for Tejas. Nobody is blocking funds anymore. The reasons now could be institutional sloth, people working at cross-purposes, foreign influence etc.
The minister has said clearly that he wants Tejas made as fast as possible. I do not know what more is to be said.
WHo told you that .

ADA asked for 400 crore side by side serial production cum testing model universally adapted with 4000 crore budget,

Due to stiff opposition fro m IAF it was reduced to 2400 crore two TDs first to prove the techs, PVs later and LSPs even later all produced in older jackass jaguar production lines with hand made parts .

ALso ADA chief tamil Mani has said we need facilties for 6000 load outs per year in wing tunnel modelling tests. But right now the country has just facilities for 1500 load outs. And all wind tunnels here are small , thats why even AMCA model was taken to US Capslan wind tunnel facility, risking the leak of classified design info.

And during sanctions actuators from one LSP was removed and fixed to another for testing, because of wants of spares,

GTRE has no flying engine tests platforms, high altitude test facilities and labs to detect vibration problems.

For three years GTRE could not find out the reason for blade throw problems in kaveri. And only after it was tested in german labs the reason was found out to be third order frequency vibrations and which was rectified later.

last heard they dont even have advanced jigs to test engines . And for thre years they were not even funded well enough to buy fuel for continuous engine testing and running.

Minister can make some vada paav very fast at roadside joint with such empty statements. I will believe him when he comes out with statement detailing extra financial and man power sanctions to Tejas production line in HAL(HAL is under his ministry and can not make vital economic decisions without his approval!!!). If you want HAL to make tejas fast clear funds for high tech production line ramp up and assure vendors of larger order which will result in economies of scale and higher investment into production of parts.

Even Dassaut makes 11 rafales an year at most. HAL is reported to make 14 su-30 MKis every year.
 
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ersakthivel

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Posters must not allude capabilities to Tejas which it does not possess. No point playing the same game as was played with Rafael earlier. For example p2prada said rafale RCS as .01 while it is more like 1 in reality. Tejas is a small point defence fighter and light bomber, its benefit is in numbers. There is no benefit from a small Tejas fleet.
Please tell me what were the capabilities alluded that tejas does not posses!!!!

If you replace the word tejas with gripen in any international forum with same statement,all hell will break loose. They proudly say that their gripen is intended to fight the huge Flankers!!!!

Well P2P is no longer here, so that example is not accurate perhaps.

tejas has a 500 Km combat radius under demanding indian hot climate conditions and carries 3.5 tons load with state of the art Relaxed static stability airframe with fly by wire software(the first five hundred test flights spanning 5 years were dedicated to validate control laws for RSS platforms which will be form the basic data base for all future RSS efforts like AMCA) and less than 0.3 sq meter RCS clean config airframe ,

with provisions for any off the shelf radar that can be as big as that of rafale, along with a deadly combo low wing loading and high TWR , capable of clearing LEH cold tests with specified bomb loads , where 4 of the 6 multi billion dollar MMRCA birds failed.

It is the first IAF fighter to have a fully internal DRFM based EW suit and full glass cockpit along with the lethat ability to fire R-73 E high off bore sight WVR missile, exactly like SU-30 MKI.

It has a litening pod to deliver LGBs and can launch 100 Km plus BVR missiles , and take from LEh from day one its operation, with a flawless 2800 flight test record , till now clearing 28 deg AOA.

Which small point defence fighter and light bomber can do all that?
 
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Singh

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Abandon the Jaguar re-engine idea.
Restrict Rafale to 60 if IAF cooperates on LCA or to 36 if it does not.
About 20 PAKFA, if the FGFA is late which I believe it will be. With option to return as was done with initial Su30s.
Restrict Su-30MKI to 272.
Keep up the research on AMCA and FGFA for howsoever long it takes.

If IAF plays hanky panky with LCA then set up an, Air National Guards or Indian Air Defence Forces, housed with only LCA Mk-1 and LCA Mk-2. The ACM of IAF, can be allowed some dog and pony show, full honors, every 3 months in such an Air National Guards or Indian Air Defence Forces.

Off course any count of aircrafts in the Air National Guards or Indian Air Defence Forces should be after reducing the count in IAF.
Dismantle current IAF, junk all foreign goods and allow only Tejas and other DRDO products. :lol:
 

Khagesh

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Wow wait a minute.

What I said was essentially what the USA and USSR had done. Or at least as much as I have understood.

USSR had a specialist air force (equivalent of IAF) and then another force that was driven towards CAS. This helped in getting the focus for both branches. Otherwise at one point the Soviets were confused if Su25 kind of fighter was needed or not and whether Su7 would be good enough as a ground attack fighter or not. Just as confused as our own IAF is about LCA. Because Soviets were willing to think different they ultimately did justice to their ground attack fighters.

US had a different apporach in that they gave their second hands to their second air force supposed to act as a reserve.

LCA is not supposed to go deep and is a simple aircraft, ideally suited for a second air force.
 

Kunal Biswas

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Don`t turn this into some anti or pro competition, If that is your intention ..

Lets keep this logical at best ..

Dismantle current IAF, junk all foreign goods and allow only Tejas and other DRDO products. :lol:
================

Tejas are design by IAF for replacing MIG-21, What was the MIG-21 role all these years ..

That would be CAS, CAP and interception, All this long we are operating MIG-21 in large and very frequent gives a little idea about the Roles Tejas are meant to do ..

Also to add, Tejas are way more advance than MIG-21+++ and even better than upgraded Mir-2000 in IAF ..

LCA is not supposed to go deep and is a simple aircraft, ideally suited for a second air force.
 

tejas warrior

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Agree with Kunal Sir.

And most important thing is.. ITS INDIAN PRODUCT.

ADA/HAL can change it as per IAF requirements and we do not need any one's permission. (We needed Sukhoi's permission to use MRF's tyre in Su30 MKI !!)

Also, Tejas will base for next generations planes.
 

Pulkit

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Ever heard of the word ,"******"?

that was the exact word that came to mind after reading it. tejas is not under powered ,In fact it has much higher thrust to weight ratio than Mirage-2000!!! ANd can easily shoot down mirage-2000 in a dog fight if you go by the figures of TWR and wing loading.

Truth is Gripen C has lower thrust to weight ratio than tejas and much lower wing loading too. So infact gripen C is more underpowered than tejas mk1 and most likely tejas mk2 will have higher TWR than gripen E considering the fact that gripen E weight has already crossed 8 tons.

SO first the guy who wrote this piece does not even have a basic understanding about what he is writing.

Also most of the specs for foreign fighters are given in ISDA conditions were temp is 20 deg around. But all tejas data are given for hot indian 30 deg plus atmospheric conditions. Those famed foreign fighters will never reach their peak performance in demanding indian conditions. The reason is higer indian tempp saps ten percent of engine thrust and 12 percent of wing lift.

Without even having any basic understanding of such info, writing that SAAB's experience makes gripen over powered and tejas is under powered because HAL lacks experience is what we call jackass stuff.

The most pitiable point is the endless rant about F-16!!! Due to depp stall issues the F-16 is restricted to 25 deg AOA in real world while even in mk1 tejas has cleared 26 deg AOA till now!!!



In a nutshell the guy should know what he is writing first. ANd there will be no twin engined LCA. WHy? Because we are already running AMCA program.
Yeah even my reaction was WTF after reading that article.

Even if there was No AMCA there can be no twin engined LCA .
What will be the need of having such an overpowered light aircraft ...
Though to fit both engines the increase in weight will be there which will destroy the all whole concept of light aircraft.


Regarding SAAB offer the aircraft being proposed is not ready yet and who knows the specs of that aircraft and how it meet the Indian requirement which I am pretty sure will not be meeting if the requirement set for Tejas are applied on it.


I doubt even if Rafale even meets those requirements in totallity.
 

Pulkit

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I hope that everything quoted turns out to be correct.:cool2:
The only hurdle in this can be ......

Commitment of IAF and HAL......

Rest everything if goes per plan this is very much achievable......
 
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