ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[sgarg]

@ersakthivel, every practical design is a compromise. I think solution for Tejas is higher internal fuel (500 liters more) which along with AESA radar, higher power F414 engine, and BVR missiles will satisfy IAF. ADA should work on delivering this as fast as possible. In the meantime, HAL need to churn out 40 units of Mark-1 fast so that IAF can train pilots and build tactics with this fighter.

I see HAL as the biggest risk to Tejas project as it is too slow. HAL has no great pipeline of products. As an aviation company of 70 years vintage, HAL does not have much to show. The facilities required for Tejas build SHOULD BE ALREADY THERE IN HAL. If it does not, then what kind of aviation company is HAL??

It is not time for cribbing but taking action.

 

[Lions Of Punjab]

LCA Tejas Division of HAL adds 6 gen-next equipment for machining ferrous and non-ferrous components

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/588319240471482369/photo/1

 

[cannonfodder]

Both sides are correct.

IAF needs to order more so that HAL can invest in increasing production. Arjun MKI like scenario will be disastrous for future.
HAL needs to be more proactive and improve its record. LCA success is necessity of India. India cannot keep buying imported planes because of high cost.
This is learning curve and we have to be patient. MK2 will be better and the next one(any plane) will be even better.

I have been thinking about what Parrikar is talking when he says "Tejas or some other single jet fighter will replace Mig-21". To my knowledge there is no real option available at the moment except Tejas.
What GOI is hinting to HAL/ADA to push and meet the deadline for Tejas FOC and orders otherwise, some other fighter will be ordered off the shelf just like Rafael. IAF needs
single jet fighter, so each order for off the shelf plane will be 1 jet order less to HAL for Tejas. It is up to the HAL and ADA to make DEC 2015 FOC reality and I am looking forward for the good news

@ersakthivel, every practical design is a compromise. I think solution for Tejas is higher internal fuel (500 liters more) which along with AESA radar, higher power F414 engine, and BVR missiles will satisfy IAF. ADA should work on delivering this as fast as possible. In the meantime, HAL need to churn out 40 units of Mark-1 fast so that IAF can train pilots and build tactics with this fighter.

I see HAL as the biggest risk to Tejas project as it is too slow. HAL has no great pipeline of products. As an aviation company of 70 years vintage, HAL does not have much to show. The facilities required for Tejas build SHOULD BE ALREADY THERE IN HAL. If it does not, then what kind of aviation company is HAL??

It is not time for cribbing but taking action.

 

[sgarg]

@gpawar, there is no rocket science being used in LCA assembly. The question I raised is very important. Why HAL needs money from GOI for Tejas assembly line? It is HAL's responsibility to invest. What will it do without Tejas! Sell peanuts on the sidewalk!

HAL must think through its own future. And that future MUST BE in designing and building, NOT screw driver.

 

[sgarg]

HAL should be very happy it has so many orders for Tejas. If it was a private company, it would have been more than happy. A Russian Mig-35 is quoted at around 30M USD. This is not far from HAL's price for Tejas. So it is not that HAL is giving stuff for free.

 

[ersakthivel]

@ersakthivel, every practical design is a compromise. I think solution for Tejas is higher internal fuel (500 liters more) which along with AESA radar, higher power F414 engine, and BVR missiles will satisfy IAF. ADA should work on delivering this as fast as possible. In the meantime, HAL need to churn out 40 units of Mark-1 fast so that IAF can train pilots and build tactics with this fighter.

I see HAL as the biggest risk to Tejas project as it is too slow. HAL has no great pipeline of products. As an aviation company of 70 years vintage, HAL does not have much to show. The facilities required for Tejas build SHOULD BE ALREADY THERE IN HAL. If it does not, then what kind of aviation company is HAL??

It is not time for cribbing but taking action.

I have replied many times that the answer is providing enough resources both in men and money to HAL. Not providing them is the biggest risk.

Even Dassault rolls out only 12 rafales per year after receiving orders for hundreds of fighters.

I dont know how many fighters you want HAL to churn out an year with just 40 confirmed mk1 orders and now talk of another "single engined fighter" between tejas and rafale by our own DM,

All those improvements you have suggested for tejas are being done in tejas mk2. But the UPA govt has cut back on even scientific man power addition leading to massive shortfall in all DRDO branches.

SO the need of the hour is seeing to it that enough resources are provided to HAL and nothing else.

 

[ersakthivel]

@ersakthivel, every practical design is a compromise. I think solution for Tejas is higher internal fuel (500 liters more) which along with AESA radar, higher power F414 engine, and BVR missiles will satisfy IAF. ADA should work on delivering this as fast as possible. In the meantime, HAL need to churn out 40 units of Mark-1 fast so that IAF can train pilots and build tactics with this fighter.

I see HAL as the biggest risk to Tejas project as it is too slow. HAL has no great pipeline of products. As an aviation company of 70 years vintage, HAL does not have much to show. The facilities required for Tejas build SHOULD BE ALREADY THERE IN HAL. If it does not, then what kind of aviation company is HAL??

It is not time for cribbing but taking action.

Every practical design is a compromise can apply to tejas mk1 also. many in IAF and indian media who see the merit of this argument for rafale against a few edges for typhoon never cease to write that tejas mk1 is short and what IAF needs is tejas mk2!!!!

Even Dassault is a vintage firm,.

I have replied many times that the answer is providing enough resources both in men and money to HAL. Not providing them is the biggest risk.

Even Dassault rolls out only 12 rafales per year after receiving orders for hundreds of fighters.

I dont know how many fighters you want HAL to churn out an year with just 40 confirmed mk1 orders and now talk of another "single engined fighter" between tejas and rafale by our own DM,

All those improvements you have suggested for tejas are being done in tejas mk2. But the UPA govt has cut back on even scientific man power addition leading to massive shortfall in all DRDO branches.

SO the need of the hour is seeing to it that enough resources are provided to HAL and nothing else.

ALH dhurv, coming rudra and su-30 mki production lines can be the pride of any aero major,


Every one is keenly looking forward to having a joint exercise with HAL built SU-30 MKI, And even Russian airforce is ordering 64 sets of avionics and missiles computers along with stores release software for their own SU-30 MKI called SU-30 SM.

But you don't notice this at all.

So I dont see how you determined that HAL has no great pipe line of products!!!!

And this will be my last post on the subject, because the same arguments are being repeated again and again SO Don't quote me again on this subject of HAL being the biggest risk and tejas mk1 has shortcomings.. Because I dont want to recreate those old fights here again .

 

[akshay m]

some good news

[tweet]588574760402948096[/tweet]

 

[ersakthivel]

Saurav Jha "@SJha1618 3h3 hours ago
Why does a radome need to be changed right at the end of a program? And how many jets have had to be IFR qualified before FOC ?

What's cooking?
http://ibnlive.in.com/blogs/sauravj...ejas-a-bright-prospect-for-make-in-india.html

As far as I am concerned the program really materialized in the mid-1990s and the air staff requirement (ASR) of 1995 that was agreed to by ADA at the time broadly set the ultimate performance objectives for the project. With reference to the 1995 ASR, the Mk-I has already exceeded the angle of attack (AoA) requirement of 24 degrees, by some two degrees (i.e it has achieved 26 degrees), which is highly commendable and comparable to the best that the Mirage 2000 could do. This could even be increased to 28 degrees in the future. High alpha testing of course meant that parachutes and related systems developed by the Defence Development and Research Organization's (DRDO's) Aerial Delivery Research and Development Establishment (ADRDE) for spin recovery were integrated into test aircraft as a safety measure, though they were of course never required to deploy. The Mk-I has also demonstrated +7G and has flown at a maximum Mach number of 1.6 at altitude.

Final operational clearance

However FOC for the Tejas Mk-I is now expected to be achieved only by late 2015. This, according to Dr K. Tamilmani, Director General (Aero),DRDO, is chiefly on account of delays in receiving two significant parts from an overseas vendor that will need to be certified for FOC acceptance. These are of course a bolt on inflight refuelling (IFR) probe and a new quartz nose cone radome, both of which are being procured from different divisions of UK's Cobham. While the Tejas program was earlier expecting to receive the IFR probe by September 2014 and the quartz nose cone by November 2014, it seems that the probe will only reach Indian shores by the end of January 2015 and the first of a total three units of the new nose cone will arrive a month or so later. It is understood that IAF teams have been making visits to Cobham to lean on them to deliver these items faster.

'If Cobham had kept its delivery timelines, the idea was to wrap up ground check outs for the IFR probe in October-November and then commence flight trials says. Some 20-25 day/night flights at different altitudes and speeds would be needed to clear the IFR system and had the probe been delivered in September, it would have easily been cleared before mid-2015', says Dr Tamilmani . He also says that adding the probe itself and flying it is not an issue since it has already been integrated on the hi-fidelity Tejas simulator developed by DRDO's Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE) and has even been flown by test-pilots on it.

Now the new quartz nose cone supplied by Cobham replaces an indigenous one and is expected to help the Mk-I's multi-mode radar (MMR) (which has an indigenous antenna and scanner but an Elta EL/M-2032 processing back end) achieve 60 per cent more range than with the latter. The indigenous nose cone has of course already been fully qualified for all modes of the MMR but the current loss through this composite part limits the MMR's detection range to around 50 kms for a fighter sized target and this is expected to increase to more than 80 kms with the new quartz nose cone.

According to Dr Tamilmani, the first nose cone that Cobham made 'had problems' with appreciable losses which led them to making a second cone that is still undergoing structural load tests in the UK. This second nose cone will be supplied to India only in February 2015 and besides spot checks some 50 sorties will have to be flown to qualify this new nose cone. Though three Tejas flight vehicles outfitted with the MMR are ready to receive the new quartz nose cones, the delivery schedule is staggered with the remaining two being delivered at an interval of a month each after the first one. So as per Dr Tamilmani, there are no technological issues deferring FOC but merely process related ones subject to the vagaries of the foreign supplier for the two aforesaid parts.

PART 1: Big Surprises In LCA Navy NP1's Ski-Jump Fight
When the first prototype of India's LCA Navy (NP1) roared off the ski-jump at the Shore-based Test Facility (SBTF) for the first time on December 20 last year, no one from the team observing the jet from the flightline and from telemetry stations knew that something unseen had happened. Something that would only become known later in the day when performance data was analysed. And it was good, solid news, much needed for a team that has seen little more thanquestions, derision and barely veiled bemusement. Importantly, it was the first time the team felt it had an answer to the 'what use is this platform, really?' question.
first time in 2012, had remained mostly on ground for the next two years, undergoing an extensive undercarriage re-design. In 2013, it climbed cautiously back into the air before going supersonic last year, and finally getting set for a shot off the simulated shore-based carrier deck in December 2014.

According to sources on Team LCA-N, "For a ski jump launch, the final design intent is to have a zero rate of climb after ramp exit to get the best performance of the aircraft. This places a great premium on the ability to fly at the maximum possible angles of attack with adequate control and also to have a complete understanding of the thrust available."

And that's where it gets interesting.

Top sources on the team say the NP1 was flown a few times conventially before the ski-jump test to soak up the thick sea-level air in Goa. As expected, engine performance was markedly better. Spirits were high, but as has become the norm on milestone tests in the Tejas programme, there was pervasive nervousness. Surprises can be nasty. And the ski-jump test would leave no recovery time if something went wrong. As the Team says, "The first attempt at any new activity is fraught with uncertainties and potential surprises. Given the 'leap off the edge' nature of the first launch, all the major possibilities of failure were identified and options to handle them were built into the plan."

The test flight team decided to lock 5.7 degrees as the minimum climb angle for the NP1 once it made the leap off the ski-jump. When the aircraft actually did roar into the sky, the actual minimum climb angle was observed to be in excess of 10 degrees. Also, the NP1 achieved an angle of attack after ramp exit of 21.6 degrees, giving the team healthy new margins to work with in terms of performance. Simply put, the aircraft performed better than the team ever thought it could.

Now you can argue that safety margins always allow for bumps in performance, but the number crunch that evening demonstrated that the NP1 had exceeded expectations healthily.

The test team's verdict: "This is certainly a welcome bonus for an aircraft that has been so often derided for lack of thrust, and this excess will be accounted for in future launches. Also the angle of attack after ramp exit reached 21.6 degrees which augers well for utilisation of even greater angles of attack for launch. It should certainly allay fears over the use of such high angles of attack and remove much of the pessimism that has surrounded the utility of the programme."

The NP2 single seat naval fighter prototype that took to the air yesterday will join sea-level flight test next month and quickly demonstrate its own carrier compatibility before long. The LCA-N team, in the meanwhile, has its spirits up. The Indian Navy, which has ordered six of LCA Navy Mk.1 has indicated, albeit unofficially, that the Mk.1 platform is likely never to see actual carrier service. While the performance surprises of December aren't likely to change that, the numbers have changed. And that's something.

SO design margins on tejas NP are solid perhaps and no under performance allegations can be made.

 

[ersakthivel]

Tejas lacks the teeth IAF needs - The Times of India

Bengaluru: There was joy at HAL and ADA on Saturday with the LCA Tejas being finally handed over to the IAF after decades of hard work. But is it the mean machine the IAF is looking for as its struggles with outdated aircraft, depleting squadron strength and India losing its air-power edge to its neighbours? The first series production LCA may have been handed over, but IAF is pushing Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) and HAL to make it more combat-worthy. It wants four main additions -- a Russian gun, upgraded software, long-range missiles and mid-air refuelling capability.

Their absence will affect the IAF's operations and a final clearance will be elusive. An advanced electronic warfare suite is also a requirement. "The LCA has already been built, and to meet these requirements, we have to disrupt the structure. But work is on, the gun has been integrated with a prototype and accommodation of refuelling is on. The other things will also be ready," ADA chief PS Subramanya told TOI.

Kota Harinarayana, called the Father of the LCA, said: "The aircraft is combat-ready. They should begin using it, understand the platform and then upgradations can be made." He said, "The Su-30 platform, four times the size of LCA, isn't equipped with electronic warfare. Have we stopped using it? When India purchased the Mirage-2000 series, the plane couldn't carry any weapons. Why did we buy it?" The IAF continues to push HAL and ADA for the changes before the final clearance is granted.

The IAF's discontent with the project has been apparent over the years which saw the aircraft having to get a second Initial Operation Clearance while the Final Operation Clearance is still elusive. Subramanya said not all of the first 20 of 40 aircraft to be delivered to IAF will lack these. "The first 20 will be in the IOC configuration but we're making sure that 35 meet FOC standards. All these requirements will be met from let's say the fifth series production aircraft," he said. The IAF though will not settle for anything less.

Saurav Jha @SJha1618 · 42m 42 minutes ago >>

* Nowhere in the world does so much of the envelope have to be proven for FOC. IAF's policy with regard to this needs to be reviewed.
* To refine a combat jet. Everybody learns and the combat jet becomes better.
* Everybody tries to get their homegrown fighter into some sort of squadron service and series production first. Bcoz that is the real way.
* Our favorite R&D org is trying its best to complete hawa bahadur's changing requirements by end 2015.
* Our bird is yet to fire new laaang range A2A because of Yehudi non-delivery. Stocks from Naavik Sena will be used now.
* People at our favorite R&D organization are completely demoralized at the moment. They sounded quite dejected. Talked to them this morning.
* Any move to sideline Tejas with an imported design would be nothing short of the Weimar betrayal.
* Why does a radome need to be changed right at the end of a program? And how many jets have had to be IFR qualified before FOC ?
* I just hope the Tejas Mk-I does not end up going the BAC TSR.2 and CF-105 Avro Arrow way.
* We need some strong statements in support of the HAL Tejas. And the strongest statement would be an order for 4 more squadrons of Tejas MK-I

 

[ersakthivel]

This is what Decklander had to say regarding MMRCA deal falling out in another forum. Decide for yourself if he is pro or anti LCA. Unlike the LCA fanboys here, he is knowledgeable and not a moron to claim that Rafale and LCA are equal. That is the kind of people you want in a forum - neutral people and not fanboys. Unfortunately, people like him and p2prada have been forced out and this forum has turned into an echo chamber where retarded ideas(like LCA being equal to Rafale) are echoed again and again until it becomes the "truth"

The following link has the entire discussion between me and the member you mentioned who was supposed to be pro LCA.

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...raft-technology-evolution-16.html#post1028875

Twenty continuous posts from me having the entire discussion between me and him, which is relevant to tejas in the link above.

Since we have discussed about many fighters and aerodynamic principles , I have posted it there for future reference,

Feel free to quote it, or copy it and discuss it in any other forum and see the result,

There are lot of people who claim to be pro tejas , but say something different when probed, Point is no one has to be pro tejas or anti tejas, just pro truth will do.

He starts off saying that size of the wing , i.e wing loading has no relation with STR and ITR

and ends up contradicting himself after a week long argument spread over 10 pages,!!!!

The following are his exact words,

So an ac which generates larger amount of lift at slowest possible speed and has higher bank angle and load limit will have higher turn rate and lower radius.

Which was what I was saying from first up, To generate larger amount of lift the primary requirement is large low wing loading planform, tejas is exactly the same low wing loading fighter.

all other things , load factor, sweep angle , tail arrangement are secondary to lift from wings, because ultimately what decides the turn rate is the horizontal component of the lift factor,

Even when wing surface area increases the lift increases many fold compared to drag increase , which I have proved by quoting various books and informed discussions with precise calculation.

note he couldn't give a single link or formula or calculation or book to prove his claim that we can have higher lift by having smaller high wing loading wing with the help of tail, body lift, load factor and wing sweep. but in the books the primary requirement of better lift is larger low wing loading wing.

If you still believe him I was trolling and he was right , then you can get some link to prove that, which he failed to do so.

There are many authentic links and books to prove one's point in the net.

using them is the decent way in discussion, Accusing and insulting the other guy endlessly shows that a person is lying.

 

[Lions Of Punjab]

Impatience Seals Worst Possible Defence Deal

By :- Bharat Karnad

With the price negotiations meandering into the fourth year, an impatient Narendra Modi intervened, circumventing the elaborate Request for Proposal (RFP) system of competitive bidding under which the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal was initiated. The prime minister decided to purchase the Rafales "off the shelf" without transfer of technology at the government-to-government (G2G) level.

This was portrayed as Modi's "out of the box" solution for a problem that didn't really exist. Plainly, he mistook the hard, extended, bargaining between the two sides as evidence of red tape, and cutting it as his unique achievement. But impatience is a liability in international relations and can cost the country plenty.

Rather than pressuring French president Francois Hollande and the French aviation major, Dassault, which is in dire straits and was in no position to resist sustained Indian pressure to deliver the Rafale and the technologies involved in toto to India, Modi eased off, promising a munificent $5billion-$8 billion for 36 Rafales off the shelf minus any reference to the L1 (lowest cost) MMRCA tender offer, possibly a buy of another 30 of them, and no onerous technology transfer obligation.

It is a turn that must have astonished Hollande and Dassault with its exceptional generosity, surpassing in its muddle-headed excess Narasimha Rao's handout of Rs 6,000 crore in 1996 to Russia to prevent the closure of the Sukhoi design bureau and production plant in Irkutsk, in return for nothing, not even joint share of the intellectual property rights for the Su-30MKI technologies subsequently produced there, which could have kick-started the Indian aerospace sector. Then again, India is a phenomenally rich country, don't you know?—the proverbial white knight rescuing the Russian aviation industry one day, French aerospace companies the next.

But let's try and see if sense can be made of Modi's Rafale deal. Much has been said about the G2G channel as a means of securing low prices. The record of acquisitions from the United States in the direct sales mode, however, shows no marked drop-off in the price for the C-17s and C-130J airlifters and the P-8I maritime reconnaissance planes. But in terms of maintenance, almost all the 20-odd ANTPQ-36/37 artillery fire-spotting radar units bought by the army from the Pentagon, for instance, are offline due to the paucity of spares. Supplier states in this situation routinely manipulate the spares supply to configure politico-military outcomes they desire. No saying what France will do with respect to the entire fleet of IAF Rafales in the years to come. Usually, the practice also is to sell the platform cheap but rake in extortionist profit selling onboard weapons and spares. In any case, it is unlikely the price of a fully loaded Rafale will be less than $200 million each or $7.2 billion for 36 Rafales, $13 billion for 66 of these aircraft, and $25.2 billion for 126 planes.

Then again, French fighter planes have proved inordinately expensive to maintain. How expensive? According to a recent report by the Comptroller and Accountant General, in 2012-2013, for example, the total cost of upkeep of all 51 Mirage 2000 aircraft in the IAF inventory was Rs 486.85 crore compared to Rs 877.84 crore for 170 Su-30MKIs—meaning, the annual unit cost of maintaining a Mirage was Rs 9.5 crore versus Rs 5.2 crore for the more capable Su-30MKI. Now ponder over this: The cost of upkeep of a Rafale is authoritatively estimated at twice the cost of the Mirage and, hence, four times that of Su-30!

The "Super Sukhoi" avatar of the air dominance-capable Su-30 entering IAF is equipped with the latest AESA (active electronically scanned array) radar permitting the switching between air-to-air and air-to-ground roles in flight, and which radar will be retrofitted on the older versions of this plane in service. In the event, in what combat profile exactly is the Rafale superior?

The defence minister Manohar Parrikar was partial to the Su-30 option, having publicly stated that it was more affordable—its procurement price half that of a Rafale, and that owing to improved spares supply condition, its serviceability rate would rise to 75 per cent by year-end, exceeding that of the Mirage, incidentally. Even so, the loyal Parrikar praised Modi's Rafale initiative as providing "minimum oxygen" for the IAF without letting on that it will maximally oxygenate French interests and industry!

While Modi talked of a low G2G price for the Rafale, he said nothing about its servicing bill. According to a former Vice Chief of the Air Staff, the total life-cycle costs (LCC) for a fleet of 126 Rafales calculated by Air Headquarters is over $40 billion. How will the LCC be downscaled if only 36 or 66 Rafales are eventually bought? If the real acquisition price of the ordnance-loaded Rafales is added to the LCC the total outgo will be upwards of $50billion-$55 billion, a figure this analyst had mentioned many moons ago.

Indeed, the odds actually are that India will end up buying the entire MMRCA requirement from France. Why? With 36 aircraft slotted in the direct sales category, it is already cost-prohibitive for any Indian private sector company to invest in a production line valued at $5billion-$6 billion to produce the remaining 60 or even 90 aircraft. In other words, by pledging to buy enhanced numbers of Rafales from Dassault the Narendra Modi government will be constrained by economic logic to buy the rest from this source as well, a denouement the IAF had always desired. Why else was the IAF Chief Arup Raha so desperate to get the PM to commit to buying significant numbers of this aircraft outright on the pretext of "critical" need when the Rafales will come in only by 2018 at the earliest but importing Su-30s from Russia would have beefed up the force by this year-end?

Previous prime ministers have been victimised by bad advice, and paid the political price, for instance, Rajiv Gandhi with regard to the Bofors gun. Modi will have to carry the can for this Rafale transaction—a boondoggle in the making. With the opposition parties and Dr Subramaniam Swamy waking up to its potential to politically hamstring the BJP government and mar Modi's prospects, anything can happen.

Impatience Seals Worst Possible Defence Deal | idrw.org

 

[Lions Of Punjab]

Devendra Fadnavis in talks with Swedish defence company Saab Group to set up unit in state

Devendra Fadnavis in talks with Swedish defence company Saab Group to set up unit in state | idrw.org

At a time when Prime Minister Narendra Modi is busy drumming up support for his high-decibel Make In India campaign, Maharashtra chief minister Devendra Fadnavis has quietly initiated talks with Swedish defence company Saab Group to set up a production unit in his state.Just back from the Hanover Fair 2015, where he had gone to promote Maharashtra, Fadnavis spoke exclusively to ET on Thursday, saying that his government has begun a dialogue with Sweden's Saab Group to team up with Pune-based Bharat Forge for setting up a defence production unit in Maharashtra soon.

Fadnavis said Saab expressed interest in setting up a manufacturing base in Maharashtra and even presented a business plan with transfer of technology and a proposal to collaborate with Indian companies if land and power are assured to them. Saab Group is a Swedish aerospace and defence company specialising in radar and avionics. Fadnavis held a series of meetings with Swedish defence, aerospace, radar and avionics experts, and showcased the obvious advantages of Maharashtra — Air Force maintenance command in Nagpur and Indian aeronautic manufacturing unit in Nashik. The Maharashtra CM said his aim was to market Maharashtra as the largest base for the German engineering industry.
............................................................................................................................................

Fadnavis tweets create buzz on MMRCA deal

Amid speculations over purchase of fighter aircraft for the IAF, three tweets by Maharashtra Chief Minister Devendra Fadnavis have created a buzz in the national capital on whether the Narendra Modi government would ask a foreign vendor to set up a manufacturing plant for fighter aircraft in India.

Fadnavis visited Swedish firm Saab's aircraft manufacturing facility at Linköping on Wednesday and thanked the company for showing interest in "Make in India" and "Make in Maharashtra" schemes.

He met Saab Chairman Marcus Wallenberg and promised a defence manufacturing policy in Maharashtra soon.

The tweets added fuel to speculations on the fate of the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal because they follow Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar's suggestions that a single-engine light weight aircraft can replace the Indian Air Force's ageing MiG-21 and MiG-27 fleets that would be phased out in the next six to 10 years.

Fadnavis tweets create buzz on MMRCA deal | idrw.org

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RPT-Fighter jet makers eye Indian riches after scaled-back French deal


Foreign fighter jet makers see a multi-billion dollar opportunity in India's decision to scale back purchases of high-end aircraft from France, which may free up cash in the world's largest arms importer to buy a new fleet of mid-range planes.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced last week that India would buy 36 French Rafale jets for an estimated $4.3 billion, in effect ending talks on a larger deal for 126 planes that would have sucked up some $20 billion and locked rivals out of the market for a generation.

Sweden's Saab and U.S. Lockheed Martin are set to re-pitch their Gripen and F-16 planes, eliminated in the Rafale tender, as the kind of lighter, single-engine aircraft that Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said on Monday the air force needed to rebuild its fleet.

"We are here and we are ready," said a source close to Saab. Saab was proposing to establish "fully-fledged production" of the Gripen in India alongside a local partner.

Lockheed Martin may also tout its F-16, one of the most widely used fighter planes in the world, as a replacement for Russian-made MiGs that are a mainstay in India's fleet, industry sources said. Lockheed Martin declined to comment.

"The light combat aircraft opportunity is going to be there in the near future because the MiGs have to be replaced really fast," said Delhi-based defence commentator and analyst Neelam Mathews.

Russia, traditionally India's largest arms supplier, is hopeful it can sell more of its Sukhoi Su-30s, a plane partly assembled in India, to tide over the air force while it waits two years to receive the first Rafales.

Foreign manufacturers have also welcomed India's decision to negotiate directly with the French government for further Rafales.

"What is positive about the announced Rafale deal is that purchase is supposed to be based on a government-to-government agreement. We have been asking the Indian side for a long time to get back to this practice instead of tenders," said one Russian diplomat.

Moscow wants to speed up the conclusion of talks with India for the joint manufacture of a new generation stealth fighter jet, the diplomat said.

TWO-FRONT CHALLENGE

India needs to replenish an air force fleet that has fallen to 34 operational squadrons, down from 39 earlier this decade and below the government-approved strength of 42 considered necessary to face a two-front challenge from Pakistan and China.

Parrikar said on Monday that India needed 100 new light combat aircraft within five years to replace the MiG-21s, and that the heavier and pricier Rafale was not the plane to do it.

His preference would be for the indigenously-made Tejas to fill the void. But Parrikar himself has admitted the jet, in development for three decades, has limitations while the latest version still awaits final clearance.

Either way, air force officials and industry sources say India is unlikely to buy anything like the 126 planes agreed in the original deal with France after all-in costs doubled to an estimated $20 billion.

Parrikar said he had not decided how many more Rafales he might buy. Manufacturer Dassault Aviation could also pitch its single-engine Mirage if India opts for something cheaper.

Foreign planemakers may need to join forces with an Indian state-run or private partner to win orders, especially if Modi is to realise his goal of developing a military industrial base.

Under the original deal with Dassault, 108 of the jets were to be produced at a state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) plant. But the two sides could not agree terms.

Such disagreements could open up opportunities for nascent private players to partner foreign manufacturers and build locally, experts said.

"This could be Rafale, or any other aircraft as long as the government is able to address the core issues of tech transfer, joint production and design collaboration," said M. Matheswaran, a former Air Marshal and adviser to Hindustan Aeronautics. ($1 = 0.9328 euros)

RPT-Fighter jet makers eye Indian riches after scaled-back French deal | idrw.org

 

[archie]

note he couldn't give a single link or formula or calculation or book to prove his claim that we can have higher lift by having smaller high wing loading wing with the help of tail, body lift, load factor and wing sweep. but in the books the primary requirement of better lift is larger low wing loading wing.

I have seen Documentraty about Sukoi Design SU-27. Major portion of of the lift for the aircraft is generated by the body and not by the wing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZvMljUNCeU

Check out around 25.0

I do belive Tejas is of a diffrent design and is a good aircraft Designed similar to F-16 XL version.

 

[Anthony Cole]

The main LCA Demonstrator I flying machine made a maiden flight in January 2001, with the LCA Demonstrator II flying in June 2002.Likewise, a second model vehicle (PV-II) made its maiden flight in December 2005 and third in December 2006. In April 2006, the Indian Government endorsed constrained arrangement generation of 20 Tejas for the aviation based armed forces.
To start with flight of the generation flying machine was attempted in April 2007, trailed by the Tejas mentor variety's first flight in November 2009.

 

[sgarg]

Bharat Karnad has taken an exceptionally negative line, which is very bad attitude.

The government wants to achieve positive outcomes - grow Indian economy, improve military power etc. This requires better cooperation with other nations who are friendly.

Talking down Dassault is not helpful. It is important to improve IAF numbers by inducting more fighters per year (I mentioned a target of 50 per year). This number cannot come from local sources alone. Local capacity is ONLY 15 Su-30 and 8 (?) LCA. Obviously more than 50% fighters have to come from foreign sources in the current scenario.

Even if Gripen is made in India - say at the rate of 15 fighters per year - there still would be scope for increased number of LCA Tejas buys compared to what can be produced today. India needs to induct 25-30 light single engined fighters per year.

 

[tejas warrior]

Source IDRW
Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) missed another Internal deadline, which went unnoticed in National media. HAL which has skipped many deadlines in the past again failed to get its act together and failed to deliver series production (SP-2) variant of India's Light Combat Aircraft Tejas before March deadline.

Can HAL Finally Get Its Act Together for Tejas Push | idrw.org

 

[ersakthivel]

I have seen Documentraty about Sukoi Design SU-27. Major portion of of the lift for the aircraft is generated by the body and not by the wing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZvMljUNCeU

Check out around 25.0

I do belive Tejas is of a diffrent design and is a good aircraft Designed similar to F-16 XL version.

Reason su-30 MKI generates body lift is in its airframe design, where the widely spaced engine allows the fuselage to get flatter on the back side to mimic the aero foil cross section of wings,

But neither rafale or any other MMRCA contender had such a fuselage design and cross section.

Also with body lift , canards and thrust vectoring su-30 MKI completes a powered vertical loop in 19 seconds in air shows in hot indian conditions where temp hovers above 40 deg and bagalore situated above one Km plus over sea level.

. Rafael too completed a vertical loop in 19 seconds in aeroindia 2013.

With out any of these tejas mk1 completed a vertical loop in aeroindia 2013 in about 19-20 seconds.

At that time it's flight envelope was restricted to just 6gs and 20 deg AOA.

Now the flight envelope is going beyond 26 deg AOA and 7 plus Gs(ultimately it will be 8G plus, just short of 9G)

 

[ersakthivel]

i too think so,

The Navy will induct Tejas in 2050, and the same Year MiG 29K Starts retiring from Navy

Parrikar's interview to HT.

From an arms race in the Indian Ocean and the challenges of raising a mountain strike corps to the hurdles in scaling up border infrastructure and how the UPA regime ignored the military's needs, defence minister Manohar Parrikar opens up to HT in an exclusive interview.

Excerpts:

Q. Was the Indian Air Force on board when the government took the decision to buy 36 Rafale fighters under the government-to-government (G2G) route from France?

A. I consulted the Air Force to the extent it was required. They have no role in decision-making as ultimately it's the Prime Minister's call. I did discuss possibilities with the prime minister and he took a very bold decision which was required. If we had missed this opportunity, the entire matter would have gone into a spin and we might have had to re-start the whole procedure this year. And in another five years our requirements might have changed. Rafale induction could begin in about 18 months.


Q. You said the fighter acquisition process will be G2G now. Will India buy more Rafales or could it source fighters from other countries too?

A. I will say both options are open to us depending on reassessment of our requirements (after scrapping the tender for 126 aircraft). I will not spell out MMRCA (Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft) role but it will be very effective in certain areas. Two people travel on a scooter, 4 in a car and 20 in a bus. But 2 people can also travel in a bus but that would be wasting resources. So, we will not deploy this aircraft where it is not required. I can tell you our light combat aircraft (LCA) is also a very capable aircraft and can replace MiG-21s more than adequately. It cannot be compared with the Rafale as the latter is a heavier fighter with two engines.

Q. So India will buy more Rafales after re-assessing requirements? Where does the LCA fit in the picture?

A. I feel that some more Rafale jets may be required but need to figure out how we can acquire them. But more importantly, we need large number of aircraft to replace MiG variants over the next 8-10 years, which is their extended life. So either we go in for large-scale manufacturing of the LCA or combine some other requirements and go for a medium-weight fighter under the Make in India plan.

Some of it can be replaced by even proper stockpiling of missiles. Nowadays, one can attack some targets by proper use of missiles.

This is what I told you earlier , Availability of cruise missiles like brahmos and nirbhay will reduce the roles of strike fighters to a certain extent. Now our DM is saying the same.

Q. Will the remaining Rafales come under Make in India programme and will Dassault Aviation set up a unit here?

A. That decision will be taken after both India and France hold talks. It will also depend on what our financial outlay is. We operate various MiG variants, Mirage 2000s, Jaguars, Sukhoi-30s and we have the LCA now. All these warplanes have different capabilities and cannot be compared. Ultimately, we may also require certain number of Rafales but how many will hinge on the cost factor. Why just 126? I would want the IAF to have 500 planes, but the question is how much I can afford. We will have to do an analysis of minimum requirement and then take a decision.

Q. The 10 years of UPA is often referred to as the lost decade for the military with several key projects getting delayed or derailed. How do you intend to reverse the damage and speed up acquisitions?

A. My focus is on projects that are stuck at different stages. I have managed to speed up these projects by 25%. There are 339 such cases that need to be dealt with. The ministry has managed to bring 58 of these to final stages of completion. Nearly 100 projects may not be required now due to long delays or changed requirements and we are looking at dropping them or putting them on the back burner. The thrust is on accelerating critical projects.

Q. What stopped the previous regime from taking quick decisions: bureaucratic inertia or lack of leadership?

A. I always say bureaucracy is colourless like water. It takes the colour of the government so you cannot totally blame them (bureaucrats). Part of the blame surely lies with them. But, it is the duty of the government or the minister to ensure proper follow-up action to crucial projects. I do not know what the previous government was doing but as far as I am concerned, review meetings are held in South Block on a daily basis.

Q. Pakistan is on course to buy 8 diesel-electric submarines from China in what would be one of Beijing's biggest exports. How do you think it will change the dynamics in the Indian Ocean region?

A. Of course, a submarine in itself is a very powerful platform in the ocean. It may, however, not directly pose a threat to India. But it does become a weakness in your armour of controlling the ocean. We will have to match it. I do not see it as a big problem because we will have enough submarines by the time Pakistan gets these 8. By the time they get the deliveries, we can manufacture 15-20 submarines.

Q. You have said the UPA regime cleared the mountain strike corps project in the eastern sector without factoring in availability of funds? What outlay are you planning to set aside for it?

A. The previous government had estimated it will cost Rs 88,000 crore and will have 70,000 soldiers. I have frozen the cost at Rs 38,000 crore over next eight years. It will consist of 35,000 men. The CCS had cleared the original proposal, but where is the money? Rs 88,000 crore is the army's revenue budget. The CCS kept clearing projects worth Rs 50,000 crore to Rs 1,00,000 crore but where is the actual money? So you have to be selective. I have cleared a Rs 48,000-crore project for seven stealth frigates (P-17A), but I have factored in when the money will be required and at what stage.

Q. Are you satisfied with infrastructure in forward areas and the role of the Border Roads Organisation?

A. Much more needs to be done. Environmental clearances have come in 64 cases. But I will be able to take the issue head on only when we are in a position to deliver in terms of roads. BRO is now in the process of outsourcing. Government machinery, the BRO in particular, has never developed the technique of outsourcing. They are very poor outsourcers. They do not have conceptual clarity on outsourcing. We are in touch with the Confederation of Indian Industry and may appoint consultants to push it.

Q. Can you elaborate on proposed changes in the new defence procurement policy?

A. Different issues are being tackled separately and we are close to coming close to a conclusion. I think 8 or 9 main issues (including blacklisting and allowing agents) have been discussed extensively and decision-making is in an advanced stage. I am forming a committee that will go through all this material and do a final round of interaction (with stakeholders). It will then write a Defence Procurement Procedure which will be published after the ministry vets it.

Q. The Prime Minister has talked about skills as part of defence offsets but your ministry says skills cannot be a part of offsets.

A. It can be. They are going by what is written there. But if we change that, the same people will say it is possible. Currently, there is a ban on services in offsets as someone used services to give kickbacks. I intend to take it up at the next meeting of the defence acquisition council and lift the ban on services.

Q. What are your expectations from your visit to South Korea (April 15-19)?

A. The Prime Minister will be visiting Korea in May. The idea is to discuss some issues so that some agreements can be finalised and signed during the Prime Minister's visit. The Koreans excel in areas such as shipbuilding, electronics and metallurgy. They have also shown interest in the Make in India programme.

Q. The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has been without a chief for more than 2 months? What about appointing chief of defence staff?

A. The selection process for the new DRDO chief is on and will happen soon. DRDO will play a key role in boosting the Make in India programme. We will encourage it to tie up with the local industry in the development phase. As for creation of the post of chief of defence staff or permanent chairman of the chiefs of staff committee, I will take up that issue after two months as I already have my hands full with other issues. We do intend to create that post but if I take up everything together I will not be able to do anything.

Q. Coming back to the Rafale deal, you said your predecessor had himself put a question mark on it.

A. The previous defence minister had written that after the price negotiation is done, L1 should be verified again. But it did not come to that stage as it got stuck up because of interpretation of whether to take French man-hours into consideration for building the plane or Indian man-hours, which is 2.7 times the French number. I have not gone into too much detail on that, but my officers have expressed reservations about this 2.7-hour formula for local manufacturing.

 

[sgarg]

Source IDRW
Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) missed another Internal deadline, which went unnoticed in National media. HAL which has skipped many deadlines in the past again failed to get its act together and failed to deliver series production (SP-2) variant of India's Light Combat Aircraft Tejas before March deadline.

Can HAL Finally Get Its Act Together for Tejas Push | idrw.org

I have already said on this forum multiple times that SP-2 was expected within March 2015. It did not happen. No news why the slippage.