ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

Which role suits LCA 'Tejas' more than others from following options?

  • Interceptor-Defend Skies from Intruders.

    Votes: 342 51.3%
  • Airsuperiority-Complete control of the skies.

    Votes: 17 2.5%
  • Strike-Attack deep into enemy zone.

    Votes: 24 3.6%
  • Multirole-Perform multiple roles.

    Votes: 284 42.6%

  • Total voters
    667
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sorcerer

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@ersakthivel @sgarg @LETHALFORCE @Ray @sorcerer @Energon

i include below a summary of the conclusions of the retired professor of Mech Engg from IIT Kanpur
prof Das, in the article quoted a few posts above:- ( it is in fact the very last para of his article )

Everyone loves a good drought
Public spending is always attractive for those who get to spend the money.
It would appear that somewhere in the warrens of policy making there are people who want the LCA as a big fat project; they want it to continue indefinitely so they do not want it to succeed. The fact that we have the LCA flying is proof that at the engineer level there is no shortage of necessary skills.

The problems of the LCA are simple and correctable.
They must have been all known within the early days of flight testing. A reasonable sized group of young engineers suitably mentored could have solved them long ago. The question that must haunt the Defense Minister is that why were the problems allowed to fester for so long.


so it is not a technical problem, - once again it is management !

roma & nathan
Absolutely!
Well.!! and the GoI has fired a lot of prominent heads of Depts..which will set things straight for people who are getting fat on fat fund allocations.
 
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Lone Ranger

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I dont know, you tell me.
pakistan has around 130 till date (f 16 + jf 17) slated to increase to 250 + by 2020

China has close to 600 till now and slated to increase to 1000 , in addition there will new 5th gen fighters by 2020 in their inventory

While india to counter both effectively need 600 4+ gen planes by 2020 only possible through rafale deal and more mki induction .
 
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MANT!

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This thread reminds me of the debate in the states regarding the F-35 or the F-111 back in the 60s-70s. In each case, the delays to the program, often caused by changing requirements from the services involved and reduced buy forecasts increased costs. This was primarily caused by poor management. When the management was shaken up (OK fired), the right decisions were made and the problems were solved.

When these issues are solved, your aircraft will be a great addition to your armed forces, but how about exports? Will your company or government aggressively push for export? To Whom? (Well I do know a few nations you won't export to.:thumb: ) Export sales often have the effect of keeping the price down and will often keep an expensive project on track.
 

sgarg

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pakistan has around 130 till date (f 16 + jf 17) slated to increase to 250 + by 2020

China has close to 600 till now and slated to increase to 1000 , in addition there will new 5th gen fighters by 2020 in their inventory

While india to counter both effectively need 600 4+ gen planes by 2020 only possible through rafale deal and more mki induction .
India does not need to counter both. It will be foolish for any Indian government to try to match combined fleet of China and Pakistan.

I wish both Pakistan and China well on their target of increasing "4++" fighter fleet to infinity. Specially Pakistan and their "4++" or "5++" JF-17. Yes I am trembling in fear at the thought of JF-17. But honestly I do not have the resources of Pakistan to match its "massive" JF-17 fleet.
 

sgarg

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@MANT!, the first miletone is to meet IAF need. Second milestone is to meet IN need. These two milestones seem far away right now. So how to worry about exports??
 
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MANT!

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@MANT!, the first miletone is to meet IAF need. Second milestone is to meet IN need. These two milestones seem far away right now. So how to worry about exports??
Perhaps, but how many will India need vs. how many will you get, if you can't keep that price affordable? Exports often do that for you..by decreasing the unit cost (also known as spreading the development cost over as many units as possible). One reason the US didn't by as many F-22s as initially projected was the unit cost was incredibly high due to the US Congress not allowing any to be exported. The Tejas looks to be an exportable fighter, with low enough cost that India could export it to some countries that would otherwise purchase French or American fighters in Africa or South America for starters.
 

sgarg

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@MANT!, the economics does not work same way in India as it does in USA.
USA is a mature economy. Our problem is low-industrialization. The labour cost is not a significant factor in India but the availability of technical resources is.

Higher volumes will surely bring down the price somewhat; but not by much.

I think export is possible only once IAF receives decent numbers of Tejas fighters and some service record is available.
 
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raj76

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Nalin Jain. President and CEO of GE's Transportation and Aviation business in South Asia region in his latest Interview have confirmed that

GE's F414-INS6 engine which will be used on Tejas MK-II aircraft is currently on schedule in development and testing.

He also added that GE's F414-INS6 engine includes a Full Authority Digital Electronic Control (FADEC) and added single-engine safety features which will be crucial for Tejas MK-II. Engine will also produce more thrust than previous versions.

Ge will start supplying first batch of engines from 2016 onwards and the rest will be manufactured in India under transfer of technology arrangement. Jain also said that GE's Multi-Modal Facility (MMF) based in Pune which was inaugurated by Prime Minister Narendra Modi will play a crucial role in global supply chain for GE and is largest manufacturing facility outside USA .

GE also is supplying LM2500 Gas turbines for Indian navies P-17 Stealth Frigates and will also integrated with INS Vikrant, India's first locally developed aircraft carrier. Ge will also be supplying T700-701D engines for Boeing AH-64E Apache which has been selected by India for IAF.
 

ersakthivel

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@roma,

There seems to be some merit in what Prof Das has to say; at least that seems logical if one compares the time taken to design and build the HF 24 that was completely indigenous (except for the designer). It was just that the engine could not be procured to match its modern and pace setting design.

The DRDO scientists are comparable to any other in the world. If Indians were not as good, then how come they do outstanding work in foreign countries once they start working there?
If prof das gives a convincing reply to my comments under the name Sakthivel ramasamy, then there are some merits in his arguments.

Unfortunatley he will never give such a reply, because most of the points he used in his article are clearly false and misleading ,

@ersakthivel @sgarg @LETHALFORCE @Ray @sorcerer @Energon

i include below a summary of the conclusions of the retired professor of Mech Engg from IIT Kanpur
prof Das, in the article quoted a few posts above:- ( it is in fact the very last para of his article )

Everyone loves a good drought
Public spending is always attractive for those who get to spend the money.
It would appear that somewhere in the warrens of policy making there are people who want the LCA as a big fat project; they want it to continue indefinitely so they do not want it to succeed. The fact that we have the LCA flying is proof that at the engineer level there is no shortage of necessary skills.

The problems of the LCA are simple and correctable.
They must have been all known within the early days of flight testing. A reasonable sized group of young engineers suitably mentored could have solved them long ago. The question that must haunt the Defense Minister is that why were the problems allowed to fester for so long.


so it is not a technical problem, - once again it is management !

roma & nathan
Lets see what will be the answers "mighty professor" from IIT is going to give to some interesting comments from me under the name sakthivel ramasamy,

The man who was the chief designer tejas ""is also an IIT grad and phd in aerodynamics who had hands on experience of various Mig-21 modifications and validations before heading Tejas effort.

"mighty professor" from IIT is giving false info regarding even the basic weight of gripen C , which he thinks is a success while tarring tejas a failure.

That crook called Prasoon Senguptha couldn't bear the sight of ten of my very incisive comments , deleted them all and is calling me names in his blog!!!!

First things first both the "mighty professor" from IIT and crooks like Prasoon Sen guptha either have no idea about tejas design specs or lying intentionally.

"mighty professor" from IIT will never give concrete answers to my comments in his blog. He will waffle with useless words, nothing more, you can watch that space for ever,

http://profprodyutdas.blogspot.in/2014/12/the-ada-lca-2014-open-source-review.html

Absolutely!
Well.!! and the GoI has fired a lot of prominent heads of Depts..which will set things straight for people who are getting fat on fat fund allocations.
Contrary to your ideas The ADA chief responsible for tejas mr Subramanium was given an extension. DOn't worry about DM Parrikar, he is also an IIT eng grad.
 
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sayareakd

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Perhaps, but how many will India need vs. how many will you get, if you can't keep that price affordable? Exports often do that for you..by decreasing the unit cost (also known as spreading the development cost over as many units as possible). One reason the US didn't by as many F-22s as initially projected was the unit cost was incredibly high due to the US Congress not allowing any to be exported. The Tejas looks to be an exportable fighter, with low enough cost that India could export it to some countries that would otherwise purchase French or American fighters in Africa or South America for starters.
Problem is not about export, problem is that our IAF guys want 5g fighter out of LCA, they want all dream things to be on LCA. When the local Airforce dont want it, how on earth will the other countries want this fighter.

BTW this LCA is made as per AFQSR, means as per their requirement.
 

ersakthivel

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@ersakthivel @sgarg @LETHALFORCE @Ray @sorcerer @Energon

i include below a summary of the conclusions of the retired professor of Mech Engg from IIT Kanpur
prof Das, in the article quoted a few posts above:- ( it is in fact the very last para of his article )

Everyone loves a good drought
Public spending is always attractive for those who get to spend the money.
It would appear that somewhere in the warrens of policy making there are people who want the LCA as a big fat project; they want it to continue indefinitely so they do not want it to succeed. The fact that we have the LCA flying is proof that at the engineer level there is no shortage of necessary skills.

The problems of the LCA are simple and correctable.
They must have been all known within the early days of flight testing. A reasonable sized group of young engineers suitably mentored could have solved them long ago. The question that must haunt the Defense Minister is that why were the problems allowed to fester for so long.


so it is not a technical problem, - once again it is management !

roma & nathan

@roma,

There seems to be some merit in what Prof Das has to say; at least that seems logical if one compares the time taken to design and build the HF 24 that was completely indigenous (except for the designer). It was just that the engine could not be procured to match its modern and pace setting design.

The DRDO scientists are comparable to any other in the world. If Indians were not as good, then how come they do outstanding work in foreign countries once they start working there?

Absolutely!
Well.!! and the GoI has fired a lot of prominent heads of Depts..which will set things straight for people who are getting fat on fat fund allocations.

Prof. Prodyut Das: The ADA LCA: Beloved Aircraft or a Lemon
The following are my comments lets see what Mr. Das is going to say about this,

Even though Mirage-2000 had far lower thrust to weight ratio than F-16, the large wing are low wing loading wing design of Mirage-2000 always enabled Mirage-2000 to have a fast turn and get a first lock and shoot solution for its WVR missiles in combat. Mirage-2000 does not have a visually cued HMDS enabled HOBS missile like R73. But tejas has this extra advantage also.

There is no need for canards on tejas mk1 or nk2 as Air marshal Matheswaran says in his course correction for LCA progran article.

Tejas has a far more power ful and bigger wing attached control surfaces than gripen to give the required turning effect.

With canards gripen has more empty weight and the same fly by wire usable AOA of Tejas mk1. Lack of canards have not resulted in lower fly by wire usable AOA for tejas mk1 over gripen C.

Canards is a vortex enabling control surface. WIthout that tejas mk1 reaches the same AOA means there is no need for this extra weight and drag inducing surface.Compound delta in tejas takes care of vortex based lift augmentation , the same job done by canards of gripen.

Tejas mk2 with more power ful engine and further composite percentage will address the weight problem. The gripen E empty weight has beyond 8 tons. In contrast DRDO aero DG has said that ADA was successful in eliminating 350 KG of weight from tejas mk1 for Tejas mk2. Tejas mk1 has a 200 KG ballast behind the nose for CG correction . This too will be done away in tejas mk2 redesign.

Unlike the addition of more drag inducing fairing s for gripen E , tejas mk2 will have a 5 percent lesser drag even with increased wing and fuselage area due to the 0.5 meter fuselage addition reducing wave drag with better fineness ratio.

SO I don't know why people are asking for the inclusion of canards at this latter stage.

It is interesting to note that with 20 deg AOA and 6G li8mitatio Tejas did a 360 deg vertical turn within 20 seconds giving it a vertical turn rate of close to 18 deg. In horizontal turn it took more than 24 seconds with those limits. Mow according to tamil Mani DRDO aero DG those limits will reach close to 28 deg AOA and 8 plus Gs.

We have to see what kind of STR and ITR will it give before commenting on imaginary shortfalls in climb rate and STR.

Even though having lower TWR Mirage-200 can have higher instananeous turn rate compared to F-16 with its class leading low wing loading and analogue relaxed Static Stability air frame.

tejas has ten percent more TWR(half fuel load and two WVR missiles only only) than Mirage-2000(half fuel load with two WVR missiles only ) and has a substantially larger wing loading(far lower than Mirage-2000).

Add to that Tejas has digital Fly by wire system .

So if Mirage-2000 in the words of former greek airforce dhief can enjoy some advantage over F-16 then there is no need for tejas mk1 to fear a f-16 in close combat , simply because it exceeds mirage-2000 in all the three crucial parameters mentioned above,]
1. wing loading,
2. TWR(half fuel load,with two WVR missiles only).
3.Digital fly by wire system,

And lastly coming to the so called drag issue.

As per Whitcomb's area ruling for a lower super sonic drag the cross ection of the fighter should increase gradually from nose to mid fuselage and then decrease gradually.

THE CEMILAC report which mentioned the sudden increase in cross section from on the fuselage from 4 meters to 5 meters (lengthwise)as a reason fro tejas mk1 failing to cross supersonic speeds in sea level has been misunderstood by many people as the reason being lower specs of tejas mk1.

Reality is a bit more complex. This extra drag kicks in only in super sonic flight, not in sub sonic corner velocity flight regime under which close combat dog fights take place.

All SUstained turn rates, (STR) and Instantaneous Turn rates for all fighters are not given for supersonic speeds.

They are all given for Subsonic Corner velocity flight regime , i.e below the super sonic speeds.

SO in those speeds there is no extra drag.

But even this issue has been sorted out some how with tejas mk1 certified for super sonic speeds in all altitudes.

So this issue is a bit more complex .
I think you mean "Quack" ??
yeah the same Quak,,

I posted the same comments in that crook Sen Guptha's web site comments section below,]
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?b...757552678142069869&page=1&token=1425103065677

As usual that wretched crook has deleted all my comments!!!

Any one can copy the comments of mine and post it on the comments section of
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?b...757552678142069869&page=1&token=1425103065677
page above and see the results for themselves!!!!

Too long mate I doubt that he will read all that.
That crook not only reads my comments , but deletes them promptly,

If you want to check you can copy the comment of mine within quotes above regarding Mirage-2000 vs F-16 vs Tejas mk1 and post in oh the comments section of,

this page under your name or any other name or Anonymous name and see the result for yourself!!!
;
@Kunal Biswas,
you can also copy and paste my comments within quotes below regarding Mirage-2000-F-16 -Tejas mk1 comparison and post it in the following link to see for yourself,
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?b...757552678142069869&page=1&token=1425103065677
Even though Mirage-2000 had far lower thrust to weight ratio than F-16, the large wing are low wing loading wing design of Mirage-2000 always enabled Mirage-2000 to have a fast turn and get a first lock and shoot solution for its WVR missiles in combat. Mirage-2000 does not have a visually cued HMDS enabled HOBS missile like R73. But tejas has this extra advantage also.

There is no need for canards on tejas mk1 or nk2 as Air marshal Matheswaran says in his course correction for LCA progran article.

Tejas has a far more power ful and bigger wing attached control surfaces than gripen to give the required turning effect.

With canards gripen has more empty weight and the same fly by wire usable AOA of Tejas mk1. Lack of canards have not resulted in lower fly by wire usable AOA for tejas mk1 over gripen C.

Canards is a vortex enabling control surface. WIthout that tejas mk1 reaches the same AOA means there is no need for this extra weight and drag inducing surface.Compound delta in tejas takes care of vortex based lift augmentation , the same job done by canards of gripen.

Tejas mk2 with more power ful engine and further composite percentage will address the weight problem. The gripen E empty weight has beyond 8 tons. In contrast DRDO aero DG has said that ADA was successful in eliminating 350 KG of weight from tejas mk1 for Tejas mk2. Tejas mk1 has a 200 KG ballast behind the nose for CG correction . This too will be done away in tejas mk2 redesign.

Unlike the addition of more drag inducing fairing s for gripen E , tejas mk2 will have a 5 percent lesser drag even with increased wing and fuselage area due to the 0.5 meter fuselage addition reducing wave drag with better fineness ratio.

SO I don't know why people are asking for the inclusion of canards at this latter stage.

It is interesting to note that with 20 deg AOA and 6G li8mitatio Tejas did a 360 deg vertical turn within 20 seconds giving it a vertical turn rate of close to 18 deg. In horizontal turn it took more than 24 seconds with those limits. Mow according to tamil Mani DRDO aero DG those limits will reach close to 28 deg AOA and 8 plus Gs.

We have to see what kind of STR and ITR will it give before commenting on imaginary shortfalls in climb rate and STR.

Even though having lower TWR Mirage-200 can have higher instananeous turn rate compared to F-16 with its class leading low wing loading and analogue relaxed Static Stability air frame.

tejas has ten percent more TWR(half fuel load and two WVR missiles only only) than Mirage-2000(half fuel load with two WVR missiles only ) and has a substantially larger wing loading(far lower than Mirage-2000).

Add to that Tejas has digital Fly by wire system .

So if Mirage-2000 in the words of former greek airforce dhief can enjoy some advantage over F-16 then there is no need for tejas mk1 to fear a f-16 in close combat , simply because it exceeds mirage-2000 in all the three crucial parameters mentioned above,]
1. wing loading,
2. TWR(half fuel load,with two WVR missiles only).
3.Digital fly by wire system,

And lastly coming to the so called drag issue.

As per Whitcomb's area ruling for a lower super sonic drag the cross ection of the fighter should increase gradually from nose to mid fuselage and then decrease gradually.

THE CEMILAC report which mentioned the sudden increase in cross section from on the fuselage from 4 meters to 5 meters (lengthwise)as a reason fro tejas mk1 failing to cross supersonic speeds in sea level has been misunderstood by many people as the reason being lower specs of tejas mk1.

Reality is a bit more complex. This extra drag kicks in only in super sonic flight, not in sub sonic corner velocity flight regime under which close combat dog fights take place.

All SUstained turn rates, (STR) and Instantaneous Turn rates for all fighters are not given for supersonic speeds.

They are all given for Subsonic Corner velocity flight regime , i.e below the super sonic speeds.

SO in those speeds there is no extra drag.

But even this issue has been sorted out some how with tejas mk1 certified for super sonic speeds in all altitudes.

So this issue is a bit more complex .
Your comments will be deleted instantly,!!!!
@ersakthivel ... I don't know .. He is not a journalist . He is a guy that works for or owns an aerospace company(Im not sure) . He goes to all the expos and defence seminars asks the people there questions and then extrapolates these things to his own conclusions . His extrapolations can be right or wrong .
He made quite a few predictions that came true he predicted 2 years that the LUH tender would be scrapped and both the 194 and 197 requirement would be rolled into one . He also predicted that SSNs and conventional submarines would be combined into a single requirement with light SSNs of 4500 ton displacement .
I take what he says with a pinch of salt but I pay attention still .
His "predictions'
1. Rafale deal will be sealed by June at the latest
2. Number of Scorpene subs will be increased from the current 6.
3. Spike missile order was only for mountain troops and paras and the missile was of the SR (light) version and a JV with USA on javelin will arm the rest of the infantry and mechanised forces.
4. Eventually there will be an light attack helicopter (LAH) derivative of the LCH which will be to the armies specification unlike the LCH that was to the specifications of the airforce .
5. Sri Lanka may buy LCH
6. IAC 2 and Arihant will have similar reactors of 200 MW or 2 84 MW reactors .
7. Prahar will never be inducted the armed forces as they are waiting for Prithivi 3 which is a solid rocket missile (unlike prithivi 2&1)
I will wait for this to be come true or not . We will know about the Rafale soon enough
If he is so intelligent why is he deleting my above comments repeatedly?

He has already called me names, and has already deleted my previous comments

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-air-force/43717-ada-lca-tejas-iv-286.html

same as post no-4281


check for yourself,
 
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ersakthivel

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However Mr Sen Guptha tries hard by by deleting my comments , a commentor on that blog has acknowledged my views,
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?p...ogID=3545138702780178046&isPopup=false&page=1
Anonymous said...
@prasun
Sakhtivels comment - apparently 100 planes handed to USAF without IOC- is it true then?-you did not refute this one.
That aircraft ditch their armaments when making a run from a bvr.
There were a few more but I cannot seem to find them now on this forum.
I understand you countered well , my point was that some of his points and yours together gave a better understanding of one aspect of pilot tactics to a lay person like me. Something I would never know,read or be able to find by myself.


Cheers
Wellwiser,

Lets see how long this comment stands there!!!!!

March 3, 2015 at 4:02 PM.

Why he could not find them on that forum?
Mr Sen guptha unable to reply has deleted them.
 

Pulkit

Satyameva Jayate "Truth Alone Triumphs"
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However Mr Sen Guptha tries hard by by deleting my comments , a commentor on that blog has acknowledged my views,
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?p...ogID=3545138702780178046&isPopup=false&page=1
Anonymous said...
@prasun
Sakhtivels comment - apparently 100 planes handed to USAF without IOC- is it true then?-you did not refute this one.
That aircraft ditch their armaments when making a run from a bvr.
There were a few more but I cannot seem to find them now on this forum.
I understand you countered well , my point was that some of his points and yours together gave a better understanding of one aspect of pilot tactics to a lay person like me. Something I would never know,read or be able to find by myself.


Cheers
Wellwiser,

Lets see how long this comment stands there!!!!!

March 3, 2015 at 4:02 PM.

Why he could not find them on that forum?
Mr Sen guptha unable to reply has deleted them.
hye mate u think u missed this one...

lol

To WELLWISHER: Sakthivel raising eye-opening points??? Like what? Can anyone elaborate on this? Nor was there any need to back down with any Rusky regarding T-90 versus Arjun Mk1. Points I had raised way back in 2009 were all vindicated two years ago when the T-90AM/MS surfaced & now the T-14 Armata MBT. It's not at all about backing down or any form of one-upmanship, but all about presenting facts & drawing logical inferences.
 

ersakthivel

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hye mate u think u missed this one...

lol

To WELLWISHER: Sakthivel raising eye-opening points??? Like what? Can anyone elaborate on this? Nor was there any need to back down with any Rusky regarding T-90 versus Arjun Mk1. Points I had raised way back in 2009 were all vindicated two years ago when the T-90AM/MS surfaced & now the T-14 Armata MBT. It's not at all about backing down or any form of one-upmanship, but all about presenting facts & drawing logical inferences.
Arjun mk2 has got another 118 follow up orders.
 

Pulkit

Satyameva Jayate "Truth Alone Triumphs"
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Arjun mk2 has got another 118 follow up orders.
I have posted very layman queries on his blog..

Hi Mr Prasun
Thanks for deleting ersakthivel comments.
I can understand You had no reply for them so it was better to avoid and then delete them.
Why will you try and reason with an individual passionate towards defense.

ersakthivel some of your points were valid.

Here are some of my questions:
1)How many times IAF changed the requirements
2)How much funds were available
3)Is Tejas getting the same treating as of Arjun
4)Why is this partial approach towards Home made weapons
5)SIT said that passing/testing criteria varied between foreign and domestic products.
6)Can we afford Rafale?



Just simple layman queries.
I hope u will reply instead of deleting this.

Regards
Pulkit

Note :I have CTRL+V the above text if you delete I will post again till u respond thank you.

I am a busy person use a keyword
"IAFWANTSFOREIGNTOYS" so that I can search straightaway.


Lets see what is his response....
 

Khagesh

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However Mr Sen Guptha tries hard by by deleting my comments , a commentor on that blog has acknowledged my views,
I think you are getting much too bothered about one blogger cum journalist.

I am sure what you write about LCA does get read by those who want to read about these things. Merely because people don't speak out, does not mean they don't get it.

:thumb:
 
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