ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

Which role suits LCA 'Tejas' more than others from following options?

  • Interceptor-Defend Skies from Intruders.

    Votes: 342 51.3%
  • Airsuperiority-Complete control of the skies.

    Votes: 17 2.5%
  • Strike-Attack deep into enemy zone.

    Votes: 24 3.6%
  • Multirole-Perform multiple roles.

    Votes: 284 42.6%

  • Total voters
    667
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ersakthivel

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Why Prasun sen guptha is deleting my comments?

You too can copy my comments on mirage-2000-tejas mk1-F-16 comparison below and post it in his comments section and see the result,
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?b...757552678142069869&page=1&token=1425103065677

Even though Mirage-2000 had far lower thrust to weight ratio than F-16, the large wing are low wing loading wing design of Mirage-2000 always enabled Mirage-2000 to have a fast turn and get a first lock and shoot solution for its WVR missiles in combat. Mirage-2000 does not have a visually cued HMDS enabled HOBS missile like R73. But tejas has this extra advantage also.

There is no need for canards on tejas mk1 or nk2 as Air marshal Matheswaran says in his course correction for LCA progran article.

Tejas has a far more power ful and bigger wing attached control surfaces than gripen to give the required turning effect.

With canards gripen has more empty weight and the same fly by wire usable AOA of Tejas mk1. Lack of canards have not resulted in lower fly by wire usable AOA for tejas mk1 over gripen C.

Canards is a vortex enabling control surface. WIthout that tejas mk1 reaches the same AOA means there is no need for this extra weight and drag inducing surface.Compound delta in tejas takes care of vortex based lift augmentation , the same job done by canards of gripen.

Tejas mk2 with more power ful engine and further composite percentage will address the weight problem. The gripen E empty weight has beyond 8 tons. In contrast DRDO aero DG has said that ADA was successful in eliminating 350 KG of weight from tejas mk1 for Tejas mk2. Tejas mk1 has a 200 KG ballast behind the nose for CG correction . This too will be done away in tejas mk2 redesign.

Unlike the addition of more drag inducing fairing s for gripen E , tejas mk2 will have a 5 percent lesser drag even with increased wing and fuselage area due to the 0.5 meter fuselage addition reducing wave drag with better fineness ratio.

SO I don't know why people are asking for the inclusion of canards at this latter stage.

It is interesting to note that with 20 deg AOA and 6G li8mitatio Tejas did a 360 deg vertical turn within 20 seconds giving it a vertical turn rate of close to 18 deg. In horizontal turn it took more than 24 seconds with those limits. Mow according to tamil Mani DRDO aero DG those limits will reach close to 28 deg AOA and 8 plus Gs.

We have to see what kind of STR and ITR will it give before commenting on imaginary shortfalls in climb rate and STR.

Even though having lower TWR Mirage-200 can have higher instananeous turn rate compared to F-16 with its class leading low wing loading and analogue relaxed Static Stability air frame.

tejas has ten percent more TWR(half fuel load and two WVR missiles only only) than Mirage-2000(half fuel load with two WVR missiles only ) and has a substantially larger wing loading(far lower than Mirage-2000).

Add to that Tejas has digital Fly by wire system .

So if Mirage-2000 in the words of former greek airforce dhief can enjoy some advantage over F-16 then there is no need for tejas mk1 to fear a f-16 in close combat , simply because it exceeds mirage-2000 in all the three crucial parameters mentioned above,]
1. wing loading,
2. TWR(half fuel load,with two WVR missiles only).
3.Digital fly by wire system,

And lastly coming to the so called drag issue.

As per Whitcomb's area ruling for a lower super sonic drag the cross ection of the fighter should increase gradually from nose to mid fuselage and then decrease gradually.

THE CEMILAC report which mentioned the sudden increase in cross section from on the fuselage from 4 meters to 5 meters (lengthwise)as a reason fro tejas mk1 failing to cross supersonic speeds in sea level has been misunderstood by many people as the reason being lower specs of tejas mk1.

Reality is a bit more complex. This extra drag kicks in only in super sonic flight, not in sub sonic corner velocity flight regime under which close combat dog fights take place.

All SUstained turn rates, (STR) and Instantaneous Turn rates for all fighters are not given for supersonic speeds.

They are all given for Subsonic Corner velocity flight regime , i.e below the super sonic speeds.

SO in those speeds there is no extra drag.

But even this issue has been sorted out some how with tejas mk1 certified for super sonic speeds in all altitudes.

So this issue is a bit more complex .
right now my comments are here,
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?p...ogID=3545138702780178046&isPopup=false&page=2
Lets see whether they will be there or not after a couple of days,
 
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karn

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So a total of 118 Arjun 2s . There are no "further orders".

Why Prasun sen guptha is deleting my comments?

You too can copy my comments on mirage-2000-tejas mk1-F-16 comparison below and post it in his comments section and see the result,
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?b...757552678142069869&page=1&token=1425103065677



right now my comments are here,
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?p...ogID=3545138702780178046&isPopup=false&page=2
Lets see whether they will be there or not after a couple of days,
Because nobody reads a wall of text especially when you copy paste it . When you don't take the time to edit our posts and make them concise how do you expect someone to take the time to read them ? He deletes your posts the for the same reason spam is deleted. What you are asking us to do is the definition of spam.
Besides I don't really care ... We will see within 2 years whether the tejas will have any significant modifications to the airframe and we will see within 3 months whether the rafale will join the IAF .
 

sgarg

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So a total of 118 Arjun 2s . There are no "further orders".
Besides I don't really care ... We will see within 2 years whether the tejas will have any significant modifications to the airframe and we will see within 3 months whether the rafale will join the IAF .
Very good logic. The problem with Arjun is high reliance on Western sources. Actually self-reliance is higher for Russian tanks as engine is made in India.
Self-reliance is a question of life and death in war as sanctions from West are expected in case of war with Pakistan.

The government is wary of complete reliance on western sources. This can boomerang on us.

I expect Rafale decision by middle of 2015. The government will decide this way or that way as nobody likes the "attention" and needless arguments.

The deliveries made by HAL on LCA project this year will very much determine if IAF can depend on LCA Tejas. HAL has to build the momentum on Tejas.
 

karn

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Very good logic. The problem with Arjun is high reliance on Western sources. Actually self-reliance is higher for Russian tanks as engine is made in India.
Self-reliance is a question of life and death in war as sanctions from West are expected in case of war with Pakistan.

The government is wary of complete reliance on western sources. This can boomerang on us.

I expect Rafale decision by middle of 2015. The government will decide this way or that way as nobody likes the "attention" and needless arguments.

The deliveries made by HAL on LCA project this year will very much determine if IAF can depend on LCA Tejas. HAL has to build the momentum on Tejas.
Not really... Russians did not transfer technologies for a few things like armour of the turret . That said one reasons I prefer the T 90 to the arjun is simply because at this moment T 90 is more Indian than the arjun (ironically) and because of lack of TOT local solutions were employed on the t 90 making them even more "local". The other reason I prefer the t 90 is simply because its design and layout is better.
Even though tejas has significant import content I prefer that the IAF goes for it because unlike a tank , designing the airframe itself is a big achievement which IMO makes the aircraft inherently "Indian".
 

sgarg

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Not really... Russians did not transfer technologies for a few things like armour of the turret . That said one reasons I prefer the T 90 to the arjun is simply because at this moment T 90 is more Indian than the arjun (ironically) and because of lack of TOT local solutions were employed on the t 90 making them even more "local". The other reason I prefer the t 90 is simply because its design and layout is better.
Even though tejas has significant import content I prefer that the IAF goes for it because unlike a tank , designing the airframe itself is a big achievement which IMO makes the aircraft inherently "Indian".
Tejas has VERY SIGNIFICANT local content, far more than Arjun. Tejas engine is also there (Kavery) but there is no Arjun engine IN ANY SHAPE OR FORM. The Arjun engine and transmission is dependent on imports. Even tracks are imported.

Besides engine, everything - avionics, weapons have been localized. Astra missile and local laser guided bombs are big developments in their own right.

I commend LCA Tejas project from the bottom of my heart.
 

karn

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Tejas has VERY SIGNIFICANT local content, far more than Arjun. Tejas engine is also there (Kavery) but there is no Arjun engine IN ANY SHAPE OR FORM. The Arjun engine and transmission is dependent on imports. Even tracks are imported.

Besides engine, everything - avionics, weapons have been localized. Astra missile and local laser guided bombs are big developments in their own right.

I commend LCA Tejas project from the bottom of my heart.
It is hard to get into the nitty gritty of all the components of the tejas but yes eventually we may see trainer tejas using K 9 engines .
Saudi Arabia overtakes India to become top defence importer: IHS - The Economic Times
Good news .. But I suspect that this has more to do with delayed projects than anything else .
 

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The ADA LCA: Beloved Aircraft or a Lemon
SOURCE : Prof. Prodyut Das / Former Professor Mechanical Engineering IIT Kanpur



Official announcements on the progress of the LCA cause more worry than cheer. The postponements are now routine. In December 2013 we were assured that we should have two aircraft by March 2014. What we got was one aircraft in October. That works out to half of what was promised after a delay of three hundred percent. The delay we are used to; the worry is that after sixteen machines and 2700 sorties is the programme so unsettled that it is difficult to get reasonable dates? FOC by May 2015 is doubtful. The significant overweight will not permit spinning and brake over heating problems to be resolved. At best we might have the end of factory testing and the formation of a Handling Flight. This will be followed by the raising of the first squadron with an IOC. The real troubles will begin then. As the new machines are bedded down in squadron service they require support. If the squadron was raised at AF Halwara or AF Hashimara it would have been a strong endorsement of the LCA's serviceability. By locating it at Coimbatore, 110 n.m. from the nearest border and not a pressing air defence priority but close to Bangalore gives a message that the current in serviceability may be doubtful. The product needs support. If so why not raise the first squadron at Yehlanka?
A Simple Comparison

Given the above the average "LCA Watcher" is better off relying on peasant common sense to evaluate the status of the programme. This below is my assessment and is made from what is available reliable "open source" information. What I have done is to form a table where I have compared the LCA Mk1, with the competition. From the figures emerged some obvious "what if" questions which lead to, simple suggestions of correction.

These below are the parameters I compared with all aircraft in "clean" condition with full internal fuel.

Aspect Ratio (AR) This will give a clue as to which way we should head.
Wing Loading (WL) Clean full fuel weight divided by wing area. Kg/M2\. Gives instantaneous rate of turn.
Power loading (T/W) Engine thrust in kg by above wt. multiply by 10 if you are a Newton's fan. Where two figures are given it is full military and A/B thrusts. The MiG Bison's R25 has two A/b conditions, so two A/b T/W is given. Indicates the aircraft's ability to fight in the vertical plane.
Induced Drag by Thrust (ID)/T Ideally I should have SEP but I have substituted it for ID /T. This is the percentage of engine power used up by induced drag in a 3'g' turn at 350 knots. Gives a fair indication of the aircraft's fighting abilities in the horizontal plane.
S. No Type AR W/L T/W ID/T
1 LCA Mk. 1 1.8 242 0.52/0.84 0.35
2 MiG-21 Bis 2.2 354 0.64/0.87/1.14 0.39/.32
3 F-16 A 3.2 408 0.64/1.15 0.244
4 JF-17 3.7 372 0.48/0.95 0.23
5 LCA (5400) 1.8 212 0.6/0.98 0.28
6 LCA (5400/2.5) 2.5 208 0.6/0.98 0.20
7 Gnat F1 3.6 237 0.71 0.20
8 Super Gnat (Adour) 3.6 286 0.95 0.24

To the average reader the figures are self-explanatory and I will restrict myself to comments after giving the usual caution that such figures are comparisons are for two fighters in vacuo. All kinds of factors play a role in the outcome of any engagement not the least being X vs X combats. My own reactions after studying the figures are these.

First the bad news:
1. We have a fairly mediocre fighter somewhere between the Gnat F1 and the MiG 21 on our hands. Hence the IAF's present reluctance with the Mk.1.
2. Both the F-16 and the FC-17 will give the LCA Mk.1 a hard time. The F-16 A will be particularly dangerous. Even against the FC-17 it would be a Mysteres vs Sabres kind of a situation. I don't have much faith in the "great equalizer" capabilities of BVRs as of now. BVRs is not the weapon for a little LCA. Hence the FC-17 will also be a very dangerous opponent no matter how much we snigger about the Chinese aircraft.
3. As a MiG-21 bis replacement the LCA is a failure because the general rule of thumb is a 15 % increase in performance and capability. The LCA Mk1 does not measure up. The landing speed and the cockpit displays will be better than the early MiGs which will help reduce accidents but let us not fool ourselves of having developed a MiG-21 replacement particularly as an interceptor. So what do we do?

And now the good news – if you are prepared to think differently!
The good news is that the LCA Mk1 is a good replacement for the Hunters, Gnats and Mysteres and to a certain extent the Sukhoi Su-7 that we had in '71. We had a round 23 squadrons of these and the LCA could be a replacement for these ground attack squadrons which to me was always the core of the Air force's business. How do we go about that? The background notes are:

1. As things are going come 2020 the IAF will be forced to use the SU 30MKI or the Hawk for close support. Neither bears thinking, to my mind. The LCA, particularly given its small size will be better in this role.
2. The IAF is allergic about using transonic aircraft after having lost Hunters to MiG 19s and Mirages IIIs at Talhar and the gallant Sqn. Ldr. Mistri's loss is still remembered. However these losses were also due to zeal which should on occasions have been restrained.
3. The IAF has to be persuaded to accept the LCA with minimal improvement confined to improving critical platform performance parameters. The LCA for close support with Su 30 MKIs as top cover could be source of envy and a model to follow for many countries.
4. To obtain that performance improvement the weight of the aircraft has to be reduced to the original target of 5500 kg. If necessary, some equipment has to be deleted. The first to go will be the Flight refueling. FR is an extremely expensive force multiplier and I cannot imagine using FR resources on a "puny" warplane such as a LCA. If the IAF is adamant in its sulk, keep only a small number of LCAs with this facility. I remember developing and producing a Soviet (very "Heath Robinson" but effective!) Arctic heating system for the T 72 (it thawed out the lubricant, fuel and the engine and used the remaining heat to warm the fighting compartment!) for the Army. They equipped only one third of their fleet and we lost a lot of business! There are no hard data on the efficacy of BVRs. The BVR issue has to be debated constructively with may be TACDE help.

Weight improvement is the key
If we accept the above then the question is how much are we going to get by "weight improvement". Item 5 – LCA (5400) is an indication of how the LCA would stack up if we reduced the basic empty weight to 5400 kilos. We see that the LCA (5400) immediately becomes a reasonably competitive aero plane with the other lot. The question is "Can we have an LCA at a basic empty weight of 5400 kilos.

What should be the weight of the LCA Mk 1?
The starting point of this estimate is the airframe of the HF 24. It was 2618 kilos including the cockpit canopy but excluding the undercarriage. My estimate is that the LCA airframe is about 10% smaller and should weigh- in all aluminum- about 2400 kilos. If we now factor in the savings due to use of 65% composites the LCA airframe should be 20% lighter. If not then why are we using a strategically vulnerable material like composites? We don't produce the stuff. So the airframe of the LCA should weigh no more than about 1900 kilos. Let us say about 2000 kilos as a round figure. If we now add:

Undercarriage 250 kilos
GSh 23 mm 50 kilos
Engine 1000 kilos
Ejection seat 90 kilos
Accessories gear box 45 kilos
Radar 130 kilos
Other avionics 180 kilos (including FBW related)
Constant speed drive 40 kilos
ECS 30 kilos
Battery Main and Standby 50 kilos
Generators main and standby 60 kilos
Hydraulics and controls 260 kilos
Total 2185
So we see that when added to the airframe weight we get a total 4100-4200 kilos. This gives a margin of 1.2-1.3 tons for all the remaining weights of brackets, cabling, piping, controls, shrouds and other items. Mind you ADA itself had maintained, for decades, that the basic empty weight of the LCA was around 5500 kg only to spring a surprise before IOC that the thing was 1.3 Tons overweight!

Fuselage lengthening
The requirement of a minimum length of fuselage for a given cross section (CS) to get the desired Cd0 is well understood. I have always maintained that the LCA's fuselage was too short for its CS resulting in a excessive drag. My guess is that at low level she will not do more than M 0.95 for all practical purposes. Most fighters of this genre have had fuselage lengths between 14 and 15 mts at least. I am putting below some figures which you will note relates only to F-404 engine fighters so the influence of the engine length on fuselage length is avoided.

1. Gripen A 14.1 mts.
2. Lavi 14.39 mts
3. F 20 14.2 mts
4. LCA Mk1 13.2 mts.

There are talks of increasing the fuselage length now. This point required pondering long ago, perhaps even as the first layout studies were coming off the printer.

Tweaking the Wing- after block 1!
The LCA suffers from having one of the lowest aspect ratios ever in any fighter resulting in high induced drag in combat. Instead of a major redesign of the wing item 6, gives what would happen if the wing was "tweaked' to have an AR of around 2.5. LCA (5400/2.5). The design conflicts for this would be:

1. Increase the span but with minimum increase in wing area to improve AR. I have increased the span by 1800 mms to 10 meters and the WA goes up to 40 sq. mts – a 3sq. mts increase.
2. Keep the tip width as large as possible (conflicts with minimum area increase above!) in any case not less than 0.5 meters to keep the landing speed Reynolds number within steady flow. Otherwise she will rock/ wobble when coming in. Why overwork the FBW? Some tip camber may be required.
3. The logical solution is a trapezoidal extension. The hand sketch shows half the wing planform. The resultant 'kink' may need a fence/acorn to straighten flows there. Don't invent. Use the MiG-21's fence to start with as the flow number will roughly be same. The V max and the rate of roll may go down by about 5% (visual estimate!) but we would have a fighter which would stand up quite well to the F-16 in a "real world" situation of 2 vs 2 or 4 vs 4. I had made a similar suggestion about tweaking the MiG 21's wing (Indian Defense Review 1990 Vol.2). The Chinese did something on those lines with their F7P clone much later and reported excellent improvements. Remind us that we must insist on design rights in the next FGFA license! What are the remaining items 7 and 8 doing? I will write about them at a later date but for the present they show how much simpler and quicker it would have been for all of us to have based our design on the Gnat with just the smallest of improvements. This should have been seriously investigated then with the AF looking over your shoulders. It would be an excellent aircraft with plenty of potential for people building. It would have also been a short, low cost project which may have been the reason why it was ignored! It is still relevant with excellent export prospects. If you give me a reasonable commission I will do it for you even now and quickly. Of course don't spoil your chances by tailoring it too closely to any single customer. The Vickers people went out of business when for the VC 10 and they listened to BOAC about the "Empire" (hot and high) routes. They got a beauty but it used more power to carry the same number of passengers no faster than the Boeing 707. Sic transit Gloria!

What is to be done?
If we let things continue as they are nothing will happen. ADA is an organization that is risk averse. We have an excellent run so far (touch wood!) of no crashes but there is no prize for that. SAAB, General Dynamics or Airbus are no fools. In any case once the LCA gets an IOC (the actual one) we will have crashes, because nothing is better than the Flying Officer to find obscure design faults in an aircraft. So here goes:

1. This business of maintaining crash free record is to be closed. Crash free development, once you have enough prototypes, cannot continue to be a critical performance parameter. We have already beaten all world records for all times. Let's get real.
2. There are two basic problems with the aircraft. One is the weight and some aerodynamic refinement, the second is the slow production. Let's discuss the second problem first.
3. Get a team which will ramp up the production present faults and limitations and all. The Hunter MK1 was riddled with problems but Hawker's produced 160 of them –warts and all.
4. For ramping up production my humble suggestion, is to get the HJT 36 prototype management team back. They have performed. No sense in spending months and months getting an ideal team.
5. The team's task would be just two. The first is to produce all the forty aircraft as fast as possible. The second is to have by 2016 the plan to roll out LCA's at the rate of 60 per year and to have, by 2018, that capability in place. Even at that rate we will need ten years to complete the anticipated requirement.
6. If resources cannot be found to produce at more than the 14-16 per year then examine seriously whether we should have ambitions to be in this class of aircraft. During the days of "Planned economy" the production rate of scooters was pegged at 100,000 p.a. – well below an economic production rate. It encouraged a thriving black market.
7. There can be no "wait until the design is proved". This is either delaying tactics or lack of confidence. You either believe in the certification process or do not issue a certificate. You can't have a certificate and then go slow. By going too slow we are killing the project by creating a "force majeure" condition where imports may need looking at.
8. Shying away from hidden faults is wrong philosophy. Problems have to be hunted out and exposed by intelligently planned flight tests.
9. The problems are persisting not because of "High Technology" but because of ADA's style of management. How else can one explain that the overweight problem was sat on since 1996? Why was the fuselage extension not handled somewhere between 2005 when the flight trials must have shown up the excessive drag. Weight and drag improvement is not high technology.
10. Limit the development of the LCA to basic experimental development. Don't form a committee to tweak the wing – if at all you want to do a tweak. Study the ferry tips of the Harrier and do a fix using may be wood or, if you must, a foam and e-glass strap on to verify the idea.

The LCA F414 – stop it!
There have been noises about getting the "right" aero plane in the F414 powered LCA. This rings alarm bells of all kinds. A new engine, new ducts, weight increases, new or re written FBW (?), a new rear fuselage. We are hatching another wild goose to chase. The Swedes have increased the fuselage length to 15.2 mts and the internal fuel capacity (by a 1000 kg more than the LCA's) in the similarly powered Gripen E. The LCA's proposed 0.5 mts increase in fuselage length will surely reduce the Cdo but it will not allow fuel capacity increase of more than 250 liters at best. We will be fuel short with the F414. In any case the pure delta, with or without FBW is a dead end in Fighter wing plan forms. There is only so much you can do with it. Putting a more powerful engine to overcome sins of past and present inadequate design supervision will result in a weight spiral and give us a barn door and that too after uncontrolled delay. The LCA F414 will be a great help to those who are looking for a big well funded project with no time lines and no accountability.

I think if we just focus on the weight reduction and we will get a useful enough warplane. After that only minor tweaks – may be the wing tweak should be done. We could, after the first two hundred LCAs, talk in terms of a dedicated Ground attack fighter with a MiG 27 style "Utkanos", 30 mm Gast (I think the Russians have one) and some armour up to STANAG 2 level to reduce vulnerability to low cost AAA defenses (SA, LMG, MMG etc.). Warfare finally boils down to economics and losing a warplane to a F16 is perhaps acceptable but losing it to a ten shilling "jezzail" rankles!
ISRO and ADA – a case study
When INCOSPAR –later ISRO -was set up, the "Essential Critical Technologies" for interplanetary flight were well known. The Guiding lights of the ISRO programme, with the humility of the truly wise ignored Critical Technologies and set about with humble programmes for people building – Range safety procedures, launch procedures, simple instrumentations, small programmes where failures trained people to take carefully calculated risks. The first ISRO rocket went up to 42000 feet launched from what looked like a footstool and some ironmongery. The Mentors of the programme did not shy away from risks and failures and kept a low profile. There was never any desire to "show" any one anything. In thirty years i.e. by the early Nineties, ISRO had exceeded its original mandate handsomely The recent Mangalyan has shown not only the skills but also any uniquely independent Indian approach, priorities and philosophy to spaceflight. ISRO is a world leader in low cost space flight and a triumph of Indian abilities.

The bureaucracy that created ADA had the mandate to create another ISRO. They could have. They could have created a thought leader. What they did was a paradox- a dependant rival- made worse by a monopoly. This was repeated with the GTRE. It is not surprising that the Tejas programme is just where the Kaveri is. Almost there but, like the frog in Xeno's paradox, it will never get there. Indignation is one thing but is there anyone on the programme who can give a credible date by which the aircraft will be OK?

Study the real causes of delay
Much is made of the effect of sanctions and funding in delaying the project but were these only causes for unacceptable delays? There must be an investigation on the effects of indecision and perhaps unprofessional decisions where the progress of the project suffered. How much time was wasted in removing leaders who dared to think independently? The premature roll out is alleged to have set back the project by twenty months as reportedly, the whole thing had to be re done. How much time was spent between the prototype being ready and the decision to fly the first sortie? These three alone may have contributed six years in direct delays. How much time is spent in ensuring "safety" to ensure a "crash free" development programme? Should resources have been allocated, for example, to the development of a turbo starter when there was allegedly a resources crunch that was holding up the main project? The India wide network of supporting Institutions for the LCA programme certainly created a vote bank that would support to the hilt the project, its reviews and the requests for funds. We should examine what was the cost and effectiveness of the concept in terms of time required to review and supervise projects at distant stations? What was the mechanics of the remarkably indulgent Project reviews at the high levels that made a mockery of accountability? These are significant questions because unless these are analyzed and lessons absorbed any future programme such as the LCA 414 and the AMCA will go the same way.

We are almost there but will we?
To summarize:
1. Like the Kaveri, The LCA requires not more development but refinement. Lack of leadership in design both overall and detail has been a conspicuous, visible,continuing weakness.
2. The product, in terms of the letter of the law, has failed to replace the MiG-21.
3. It can be however be a good clear weather strike aircraft which is what every AF needs in large numbers.
4. To achieve 3 above the structural weight needs to be brought down. If still wanting, review some of the "occasional use" equipment in the specs. And throw them out!
5. We must snap out of the small annual production mind set. This will result in a HF 24 replay.
6. In absence of having anything better, get that HJT 36 development team back. Yes they made mistakes but they made them fast.
7. This team should work on: improving the production rate to 60 per year and to build all the aircraft ordered -warts and all- by 2017. No more pussy footing about further improvements because improvements are endless.
8. Stop thinking about the LCA F414. The pure delta, with or without FBW, is a dead end in fighter design. Better think of using the basic fuselage with a conventional shoulder wing and tail, a la Gnat. Conventional wings are more "tweakable" and in any case all the other "stuffing" will largely be the same. All this after skills have been demonstrated by getting the LCA Mk1 right. Show me!
9. Focus on the post natal period of LCA's IOC. The HF24 was often AOG'ed because of a lack of split pins! I am not being skittish when I say raise the first squadron at Yehlanka – provided there are sufficient 'married men's quarters'. House rent in Bangalore is exorbitant!
10. Just as GTRE has to be reorganized ADA has to be re-peopled if it is to be effective. Aircraft design is not all 'science". It still is an art. We always had the "Science "part but in setting up ADA the "Arts" part was clearly neglected.

Everyone loves a good drought

Public spending is always attractive for those who get to spend the money. It would appear that somewhere in the warrens of policy making there are people who want the LCA as a big fat project; they want it to continue indefinitely so they do not want it to succeed. The fact that we have the LCA flying is proof that at the engineer level there is no shortage of necessary skills. The problems of the LCA are simple and correctable. They must have been all known within the early days of flight testing. A reasonable sized group of young engineers suitably mentored could have solved them long ago. The question that must haunt the Defense Minister is that why were the problems allowed to fester for so long.

The ADA LCA: Beloved Aircraft or a Lemon | idrw.org
 

ersakthivel

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Tejas has VERY SIGNIFICANT local content, far more than Arjun. Tejas engine is also there (Kavery) but there is no Arjun engine IN ANY SHAPE OR FORM. The Arjun engine and transmission is dependent on imports. Even tracks are imported.

Besides engine, everything - avionics, weapons have been localized. Astra missile and local laser guided bombs are big developments in their own right.

I commend LCA Tejas project from the bottom of my heart.
You are wrong on every count.

In tejas kaveri engine is noway near powering combat tejas because of the lack of technology.(may be for a LIFT version of tejas), But Arjun not having indian engine is not because of lack of tech. IA hasn't yet given a concrete 500 no order for Arjun. If they give we can easily develop engine for Arjun. The tech exists in india.

The all important Kachan composite armor for Arjun is developed in injdia, many ammo types for Arjun are also locally developed. And gun barrel tech of Arjun was developed here. MRF has put up a local facility to make Arjun's rubber tracks and close it down because of lack of orders from IA. In the same way the crucial suspension system of Arjun was also locally developed. Even Commander's panoramic sight , the most crucial component for a tank was recently locally developed.

Even M1A1 Abrams has a german gun, but the gun on Arjun is totally indian and can fire deadly accurate rounds on the move. CLGM is also in advanced stage of development as well.

All this has been discussed thread bare in Arjun threads, we can take further discussion on these matters to that thread.

But in case of tejas serious works remains to be done as far as its engine , radar and close combat missile (WVR) in india.
 
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ersakthivel

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So a total of 118 Arjun 2s . There are no "further orders".



Because nobody reads a wall of text especially when you copy paste it . When you don't take the time to edit our posts and make them concise how do you expect someone to take the time to read them ? He deletes your posts the for the same reason spam is deleted. What you are asking us to do is the definition of spam.
Besides I don't really care ... We will see within 2 years whether the tejas will have any significant modifications to the airframe and we will see within 3 months whether the rafale will join the IAF .
It his article which is spam , not my comments,


You can rest assured that this govt is not going to shut the Arjun production line after 118 orders.

Your useless explanations border on the ridicule.

1, The Guptha guy has spoken about lack of canards on tejas being the reason for shortfall in ITR, STR and make it look like as if the 20 percent extra powered GE-414 wont let it reach those specs, which are completely baseless ,technically ignorant claim!!!!

2. he not only read my comments, he replied to them in a condescending voice thinking , I will just let go. So your contention that he is not reading my long comments is wrong.

3. The guy pretty much knows he has no answers to my queries , when he blurted out that completion of a vertical loop in 20 seconds by tejas in Aeroindia 2013 with 6G and 20 Deg AOA limitation has no combat relevance. he has also deleted his own comments saying the same thing!!!

4. And if somebody does not have the comprehension to read a couple of pages of simple stuff (with no formula, heavy calculation at all), he should shut all his holes tightly and refrain from commenting on defence matters,

5. And I copy pasted my own comments made in the forum. Not somebody else's.

Your inability to say anything about the points I raised in my 10 or 20 comments(which were all deleted in a flash by the guptha guy) says that you don't have any basic understanding of what is being discussed in this thread. Instead of trying to understand what is being discussed here you are making useless claims on Guptha's behalf like,

"Because nobody reads a wall of text especially when you copy paste it . When you don't take the time to edit our posts and make them concise how do you expect someone to take the time to read them ? He deletes your posts the for the same reason spam is deleted. What you are asking us to do is the definition of spam.
Besides I don't really care ... We will see within 2 years whether the tejas will have any significant modifications to the airframe and we will see within 3 months whether the rafale will join the IAF"

which is simply a pathetic explanation.

By cosying up to some one higher ups in defence sector and getting a few things right(for so many bluffs of him which were proved false you can visit BR) is no indication of his genius.

Also using that credibility of getting a few prediction right to say the lack of canards is the reason for short falls in ITR and STR is simply ridiculous.

And then abusing a contrary point of view and deleting some very good comments,(which was appreciated even by other visitors in the comment column) is a totally dishonest path of blogging.He uses the internet to gain popularity and spread misinformation. But loathes it when it comes to acknowledging contrary points , for which he has no explanation at all.

And calling the contrary view expressed by Ajai shukla as "yellow journalism" is down right crooked in nature. An intellectually dishonesty guy who pathetically deletes my comments repeatedly unable to give a decent reply or letting them stand with no explanation, has no right to call the other person "Yellow journalist".

Opposed to this comment deleting crook , at least MR. DAS has let my comments stand(same as the one deleted by Guptha) , in his blog,which is the first step in simple honesty,
http://profprodyutdas.blogspot.in/2...howComment=1425739297834#c7992417908738804393

It is very strange of you take cudgels on behalf of such a pathetic person !!!!
 
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ersakthivel

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Not really... Russians did not transfer technologies for a few things like armour of the turret . That said one reasons I prefer the T 90 to the arjun is simply because at this moment T 90 is more Indian than the arjun (ironically) and because of lack of TOT local solutions were employed on the t 90 making them even more "local". The other reason I prefer the t 90 is simply because its design and layout is better.
Even though tejas has significant import content I prefer that the IAF goes for it because unlike a tank , designing the airframe itself is a big achievement which IMO makes the aircraft inherently "Indian".
A T-90 with its ammo lying exposed on the floor of the tank , can kill all its crew in ammo cook up resulting from a simple seep through explosion resulting from LTTE landmine types.But Arjun with its safe ammo storage wont blow up and kill its crew . It will stand its ground and fight . For that express purpose it was made heavy with separate safe ammo storage and exceptionally good armor protection.

All this has been discussed thread bare in Arjun threads, we can take further discussion on these matters to that thread. Before that go through the thread to understand the topic. Prasson Sen Guptha type education on defence matters is never going to help much in any discussion.
 

Pandora

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A T-90 with its ammo lying exposed on the floor of the tank , can kill all its crew in ammo cook up resulting from a simple seep through explosion resulting from LTTE landmine types.But Arjun with its safe ammo storage wont blow up and kill its crew . It will stand its ground and fight . For that express purpose it was made heavy with separate safe ammo storage and exceptionally good armor protection.

All this has been discussed thread bare in Arjun threads, we can take further discussion on these matters to that thread. Before that go through the thread to understand the topic. Prasson Sen Guptha type education on defence matters is never going to help much in any discussion.
If am not wrong T90 doesn't have an escape door for crew in case of Fire.
 

sgarg

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You are wrong on every count.

In tejas kaveri engine is noway near powering combat tejas because of the lack of technology.(may be for a LIFT version of tejas), But Arjun not having indian engine is not because of lack of tech. IA hasn't yet given a concrete 500 no order for Arjun. If they give we can easily develop engine for Arjun. The tech exists in india.

The all important Kachan composite armor for Arjun is developed in injdia, many ammo types for Arjun are also locally developed. And gun barrel tech of Arjun was developed here. MRF has put up a local facility to make Arjun's rubber tracks and close it down because of lack of orders from IA. In the same way the crucial suspension system of Arjun was also locally developed. Even Commander's panoramic sight , the most crucial component for a tank was recently locally developed.

Even M1A1 Abrams has a german gun, but the gun on Arjun is totally indian and can fire deadly accurate rounds on the move. CLGM is also in advanced stage of development as well.

All this has been discussed thread bare in Arjun threads, we can take further discussion on these matters to that thread.

But in case of tejas serious works remains to be done as far as its engine , radar and close combat missile (WVR) in india.
The engine can and should be made in India despite the low numbers. Today's manufacturing technology allows low volume production.
The rest of Arjun is OK.

Designing a fighter plane is definitely a bigger challenge compared to a tank. A tank should have been a routine item by now if it was assigned to the private sector.

Honestly I like Mirage-2000 and I like LCA Tejas despite the points made by Prof Prodyut Das. As I said earlier, the Tejas needs to be delivered to IAF in numbers. HAL has the order for 40. All that remains to be seen is how and when these planes are delivered.
 

ersakthivel

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The engine can and should be made in India despite the low numbers. Today's manufacturing technology allows low volume production.
The rest of Arjun is OK.

Designing a fighter plane is definitely a bigger challenge compared to a tank. A tank should have been a routine item by now if it was assigned to the private sector.

Honestly I like Mirage-2000 and I like LCA Tejas despite the points made by Prof Prodyut Das. As I said earlier, the Tejas needs to be delivered to IAF in numbers. HAL has the order for 40. All that remains to be seen is how and when these planes are delivered.
The points raised by Das are simply incorrect, See my comments in the name of Sakthivel ramasamy in the following link,
Prof. Prodyut Das: The ADA LCA: Beloved Aircraft or a Lemon
he has not yet given any convincing explanation at all til date. And most of hisw calculation are also wrong as well,
 

ersakthivel

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The ADA LCA: Beloved Aircraft or a Lemon
SOURCE : Prof. Prodyut Das / Former Professor Mechanical Engineering IIT Kanpur



Official announcements on the progress of the LCA cause more worry than cheer. The postponements are now routine. In December 2013 we were assured that we should have two aircraft by March 2014. What we got was one aircraft in October. That works out to half of what was promised after a delay of three hundred percent. The delay we are used to; the worry is that after sixteen machines and 2700 sorties is the programme so unsettled that it is difficult to get reasonable dates? FOC by May 2015 is doubtful. The significant overweight will not permit spinning and brake over heating problems to be resolved. At best we might have the end of factory testing and the formation of a Handling Flight. This will be followed by the raising of the first squadron with an IOC. The real troubles will begin then. As the new machines are bedded down in squadron service they require support. If the squadron was raised at AF Halwara or AF Hashimara it would have been a strong endorsement of the LCA's serviceability. By locating it at Coimbatore, 110 n.m. from the nearest border and not a pressing air defence priority but close to Bangalore gives a message that the current in serviceability may be doubtful. The product needs support. If so why not raise the first squadron at Yehlanka?
A Simple Comparison

Given the above the average "LCA Watcher" is better off relying on peasant common sense to evaluate the status of the programme. This below is my assessment and is made from what is available reliable "open source" information. What I have done is to form a table where I have compared the LCA Mk1, with the competition. From the figures emerged some obvious "what if" questions which lead to, simple suggestions of correction.

These below are the parameters I compared with all aircraft in "clean" condition with full internal fuel.

Aspect Ratio (AR) This will give a clue as to which way we should head.
Wing Loading (WL) Clean full fuel weight divided by wing area. Kg/M2\. Gives instantaneous rate of turn.
Power loading (T/W) Engine thrust in kg by above wt. multiply by 10 if you are a Newton's fan. Where two figures are given it is full military and A/B thrusts. The MiG Bison's R25 has two A/b conditions, so two A/b T/W is given. Indicates the aircraft's ability to fight in the vertical plane.
Induced Drag by Thrust (ID)/T Ideally I should have SEP but I have substituted it for ID /T. This is the percentage of engine power used up by induced drag in a 3'g' turn at 350 knots. Gives a fair indication of the aircraft's fighting abilities in the horizontal plane.
S. No Type AR W/L T/W ID/T
1 LCA Mk. 1 1.8 242 0.52/0.84 0.35
2 MiG-21 Bis 2.2 354 0.64/0.87/1.14 0.39/.32
3 F-16 A 3.2 408 0.64/1.15 0.244
4 JF-17 3.7 372 0.48/0.95 0.23
5 LCA (5400) 1.8 212 0.6/0.98 0.28
6 LCA (5400/2.5) 2.5 208 0.6/0.98 0.20
7 Gnat F1 3.6 237 0.71 0.20
8 Super Gnat (Adour) 3.6 286 0.95 0.24

To the average reader the figures are self-explanatory and I will restrict myself to comments after giving the usual caution that such figures are comparisons are for two fighters in vacuo. All kinds of factors play a role in the outcome of any engagement not the least being X vs X combats. My own reactions after studying the figures are these.

First the bad news:
1. We have a fairly mediocre fighter somewhere between the Gnat F1 and the MiG 21 on our hands. Hence the IAF's present reluctance with the Mk.1.
2. Both the F-16 and the FC-17 will give the LCA Mk.1 a hard time. The F-16 A will be particularly dangerous. Even against the FC-17 it would be a Mysteres vs Sabres kind of a situation. I don't have much faith in the "great equalizer" capabilities of BVRs as of now. BVRs is not the weapon for a little LCA. Hence the FC-17 will also be a very dangerous opponent no matter how much we snigger about the Chinese aircraft.
3. As a MiG-21 bis replacement the LCA is a failure because the general rule of thumb is a 15 % increase in performance and capability. The LCA Mk1 does not measure up. The landing speed and the cockpit displays will be better than the early MiGs which will help reduce accidents but let us not fool ourselves of having developed a MiG-21 replacement particularly as an interceptor. So what do we do?

And now the good news – if you are prepared to think differently!
The good news is that the LCA Mk1 is a good replacement for the Hunters, Gnats and Mysteres and to a certain extent the Sukhoi Su-7 that we had in '71. We had a round 23 squadrons of these and the LCA could be a replacement for these ground attack squadrons which to me was always the core of the Air force's business. How do we go about that? The background notes are:

1. As things are going come 2020 the IAF will be forced to use the SU 30MKI or the Hawk for close support. Neither bears thinking, to my mind. The LCA, particularly given its small size will be better in this role.
2. The IAF is allergic about using transonic aircraft after having lost Hunters to MiG 19s and Mirages IIIs at Talhar and the gallant Sqn. Ldr. Mistri's loss is still remembered. However these losses were also due to zeal which should on occasions have been restrained.
3. The IAF has to be persuaded to accept the LCA with minimal improvement confined to improving critical platform performance parameters. The LCA for close support with Su 30 MKIs as top cover could be source of envy and a model to follow for many countries.
4. To obtain that performance improvement the weight of the aircraft has to be reduced to the original target of 5500 kg. If necessary, some equipment has to be deleted. The first to go will be the Flight refueling. FR is an extremely expensive force multiplier and I cannot imagine using FR resources on a "puny" warplane such as a LCA. If the IAF is adamant in its sulk, keep only a small number of LCAs with this facility. I remember developing and producing a Soviet (very "Heath Robinson" but effective!) Arctic heating system for the T 72 (it thawed out the lubricant, fuel and the engine and used the remaining heat to warm the fighting compartment!) for the Army. They equipped only one third of their fleet and we lost a lot of business! There are no hard data on the efficacy of BVRs. The BVR issue has to be debated constructively with may be TACDE help.

Weight improvement is the key
If we accept the above then the question is how much are we going to get by "weight improvement". Item 5 – LCA (5400) is an indication of how the LCA would stack up if we reduced the basic empty weight to 5400 kilos. We see that the LCA (5400) immediately becomes a reasonably competitive aero plane with the other lot. The question is "Can we have an LCA at a basic empty weight of 5400 kilos.

What should be the weight of the LCA Mk 1?
The starting point of this estimate is the airframe of the HF 24. It was 2618 kilos including the cockpit canopy but excluding the undercarriage. My estimate is that the LCA airframe is about 10% smaller and should weigh- in all aluminum- about 2400 kilos. If we now factor in the savings due to use of 65% composites the LCA airframe should be 20% lighter. If not then why are we using a strategically vulnerable material like composites? We don't produce the stuff. So the airframe of the LCA should weigh no more than about 1900 kilos. Let us say about 2000 kilos as a round figure. If we now add:

Undercarriage 250 kilos
GSh 23 mm 50 kilos
Engine 1000 kilos
Ejection seat 90 kilos
Accessories gear box 45 kilos
Radar 130 kilos
Other avionics 180 kilos (including FBW related)
Constant speed drive 40 kilos
ECS 30 kilos
Battery Main and Standby 50 kilos
Generators main and standby 60 kilos
Hydraulics and controls 260 kilos
Total 2185
So we see that when added to the airframe weight we get a total 4100-4200 kilos. This gives a margin of 1.2-1.3 tons for all the remaining weights of brackets, cabling, piping, controls, shrouds and other items. Mind you ADA itself had maintained, for decades, that the basic empty weight of the LCA was around 5500 kg only to spring a surprise before IOC that the thing was 1.3 Tons overweight!

Fuselage lengthening
The requirement of a minimum length of fuselage for a given cross section (CS) to get the desired Cd0 is well understood. I have always maintained that the LCA's fuselage was too short for its CS resulting in a excessive drag. My guess is that at low level she will not do more than M 0.95 for all practical purposes. Most fighters of this genre have had fuselage lengths between 14 and 15 mts at least. I am putting below some figures which you will note relates only to F-404 engine fighters so the influence of the engine length on fuselage length is avoided.

1. Gripen A 14.1 mts.
2. Lavi 14.39 mts
3. F 20 14.2 mts
4. LCA Mk1 13.2 mts.

There are talks of increasing the fuselage length now. This point required pondering long ago, perhaps even as the first layout studies were coming off the printer.

Tweaking the Wing- after block 1!
The LCA suffers from having one of the lowest aspect ratios ever in any fighter resulting in high induced drag in combat. Instead of a major redesign of the wing item 6, gives what would happen if the wing was "tweaked' to have an AR of around 2.5. LCA (5400/2.5). The design conflicts for this would be:

1. Increase the span but with minimum increase in wing area to improve AR. I have increased the span by 1800 mms to 10 meters and the WA goes up to 40 sq. mts – a 3sq. mts increase.
2. Keep the tip width as large as possible (conflicts with minimum area increase above!) in any case not less than 0.5 meters to keep the landing speed Reynolds number within steady flow. Otherwise she will rock/ wobble when coming in. Why overwork the FBW? Some tip camber may be required.
3. The logical solution is a trapezoidal extension. The hand sketch shows half the wing planform. The resultant 'kink' may need a fence/acorn to straighten flows there. Don't invent. Use the MiG-21's fence to start with as the flow number will roughly be same. The V max and the rate of roll may go down by about 5% (visual estimate!) but we would have a fighter which would stand up quite well to the F-16 in a "real world" situation of 2 vs 2 or 4 vs 4. I had made a similar suggestion about tweaking the MiG 21's wing (Indian Defense Review 1990 Vol.2). The Chinese did something on those lines with their F7P clone much later and reported excellent improvements. Remind us that we must insist on design rights in the next FGFA license! What are the remaining items 7 and 8 doing? I will write about them at a later date but for the present they show how much simpler and quicker it would have been for all of us to have based our design on the Gnat with just the smallest of improvements. This should have been seriously investigated then with the AF looking over your shoulders. It would be an excellent aircraft with plenty of potential for people building. It would have also been a short, low cost project which may have been the reason why it was ignored! It is still relevant with excellent export prospects. If you give me a reasonable commission I will do it for you even now and quickly. Of course don't spoil your chances by tailoring it too closely to any single customer. The Vickers people went out of business when for the VC 10 and they listened to BOAC about the "Empire" (hot and high) routes. They got a beauty but it used more power to carry the same number of passengers no faster than the Boeing 707. Sic transit Gloria!

What is to be done?
If we let things continue as they are nothing will happen. ADA is an organization that is risk averse. We have an excellent run so far (touch wood!) of no crashes but there is no prize for that. SAAB, General Dynamics or Airbus are no fools. In any case once the LCA gets an IOC (the actual one) we will have crashes, because nothing is better than the Flying Officer to find obscure design faults in an aircraft. So here goes:

1. This business of maintaining crash free record is to be closed. Crash free development, once you have enough prototypes, cannot continue to be a critical performance parameter. We have already beaten all world records for all times. Let's get real.
2. There are two basic problems with the aircraft. One is the weight and some aerodynamic refinement, the second is the slow production. Let's discuss the second problem first.
3. Get a team which will ramp up the production present faults and limitations and all. The Hunter MK1 was riddled with problems but Hawker's produced 160 of them –warts and all.
4. For ramping up production my humble suggestion, is to get the HJT 36 prototype management team back. They have performed. No sense in spending months and months getting an ideal team.
5. The team's task would be just two. The first is to produce all the forty aircraft as fast as possible. The second is to have by 2016 the plan to roll out LCA's at the rate of 60 per year and to have, by 2018, that capability in place. Even at that rate we will need ten years to complete the anticipated requirement.
6. If resources cannot be found to produce at more than the 14-16 per year then examine seriously whether we should have ambitions to be in this class of aircraft. During the days of "Planned economy" the production rate of scooters was pegged at 100,000 p.a. – well below an economic production rate. It encouraged a thriving black market.
7. There can be no "wait until the design is proved". This is either delaying tactics or lack of confidence. You either believe in the certification process or do not issue a certificate. You can't have a certificate and then go slow. By going too slow we are killing the project by creating a "force majeure" condition where imports may need looking at.
8. Shying away from hidden faults is wrong philosophy. Problems have to be hunted out and exposed by intelligently planned flight tests.
9. The problems are persisting not because of "High Technology" but because of ADA's style of management. How else can one explain that the overweight problem was sat on since 1996? Why was the fuselage extension not handled somewhere between 2005 when the flight trials must have shown up the excessive drag. Weight and drag improvement is not high technology.
10. Limit the development of the LCA to basic experimental development. Don't form a committee to tweak the wing – if at all you want to do a tweak. Study the ferry tips of the Harrier and do a fix using may be wood or, if you must, a foam and e-glass strap on to verify the idea.

The LCA F414 – stop it!
There have been noises about getting the "right" aero plane in the F414 powered LCA. This rings alarm bells of all kinds. A new engine, new ducts, weight increases, new or re written FBW (?), a new rear fuselage. We are hatching another wild goose to chase. The Swedes have increased the fuselage length to 15.2 mts and the internal fuel capacity (by a 1000 kg more than the LCA's) in the similarly powered Gripen E. The LCA's proposed 0.5 mts increase in fuselage length will surely reduce the Cdo but it will not allow fuel capacity increase of more than 250 liters at best. We will be fuel short with the F414. In any case the pure delta, with or without FBW is a dead end in Fighter wing plan forms. There is only so much you can do with it. Putting a more powerful engine to overcome sins of past and present inadequate design supervision will result in a weight spiral and give us a barn door and that too after uncontrolled delay. The LCA F414 will be a great help to those who are looking for a big well funded project with no time lines and no accountability.

I think if we just focus on the weight reduction and we will get a useful enough warplane. After that only minor tweaks – may be the wing tweak should be done. We could, after the first two hundred LCAs, talk in terms of a dedicated Ground attack fighter with a MiG 27 style "Utkanos", 30 mm Gast (I think the Russians have one) and some armour up to STANAG 2 level to reduce vulnerability to low cost AAA defenses (SA, LMG, MMG etc.). Warfare finally boils down to economics and losing a warplane to a F16 is perhaps acceptable but losing it to a ten shilling "jezzail" rankles!
ISRO and ADA – a case study
When INCOSPAR –later ISRO -was set up, the "Essential Critical Technologies" for interplanetary flight were well known. The Guiding lights of the ISRO programme, with the humility of the truly wise ignored Critical Technologies and set about with humble programmes for people building – Range safety procedures, launch procedures, simple instrumentations, small programmes where failures trained people to take carefully calculated risks. The first ISRO rocket went up to 42000 feet launched from what looked like a footstool and some ironmongery. The Mentors of the programme did not shy away from risks and failures and kept a low profile. There was never any desire to "show" any one anything. In thirty years i.e. by the early Nineties, ISRO had exceeded its original mandate handsomely The recent Mangalyan has shown not only the skills but also any uniquely independent Indian approach, priorities and philosophy to spaceflight. ISRO is a world leader in low cost space flight and a triumph of Indian abilities.

The bureaucracy that created ADA had the mandate to create another ISRO. They could have. They could have created a thought leader. What they did was a paradox- a dependant rival- made worse by a monopoly. This was repeated with the GTRE. It is not surprising that the Tejas programme is just where the Kaveri is. Almost there but, like the frog in Xeno's paradox, it will never get there. Indignation is one thing but is there anyone on the programme who can give a credible date by which the aircraft will be OK?

Study the real causes of delay
Much is made of the effect of sanctions and funding in delaying the project but were these only causes for unacceptable delays? There must be an investigation on the effects of indecision and perhaps unprofessional decisions where the progress of the project suffered. How much time was wasted in removing leaders who dared to think independently? The premature roll out is alleged to have set back the project by twenty months as reportedly, the whole thing had to be re done. How much time was spent between the prototype being ready and the decision to fly the first sortie? These three alone may have contributed six years in direct delays. How much time is spent in ensuring "safety" to ensure a "crash free" development programme? Should resources have been allocated, for example, to the development of a turbo starter when there was allegedly a resources crunch that was holding up the main project? The India wide network of supporting Institutions for the LCA programme certainly created a vote bank that would support to the hilt the project, its reviews and the requests for funds. We should examine what was the cost and effectiveness of the concept in terms of time required to review and supervise projects at distant stations? What was the mechanics of the remarkably indulgent Project reviews at the high levels that made a mockery of accountability? These are significant questions because unless these are analyzed and lessons absorbed any future programme such as the LCA 414 and the AMCA will go the same way.

We are almost there but will we?
To summarize:
1. Like the Kaveri, The LCA requires not more development but refinement. Lack of leadership in design both overall and detail has been a conspicuous, visible,continuing weakness.
2. The product, in terms of the letter of the law, has failed to replace the MiG-21.
3. It can be however be a good clear weather strike aircraft which is what every AF needs in large numbers.
4. To achieve 3 above the structural weight needs to be brought down. If still wanting, review some of the "occasional use" equipment in the specs. And throw them out!
5. We must snap out of the small annual production mind set. This will result in a HF 24 replay.
6. In absence of having anything better, get that HJT 36 development team back. Yes they made mistakes but they made them fast.
7. This team should work on: improving the production rate to 60 per year and to build all the aircraft ordered -warts and all- by 2017. No more pussy footing about further improvements because improvements are endless.
8. Stop thinking about the LCA F414. The pure delta, with or without FBW, is a dead end in fighter design. Better think of using the basic fuselage with a conventional shoulder wing and tail, a la Gnat. Conventional wings are more "tweakable" and in any case all the other "stuffing" will largely be the same. All this after skills have been demonstrated by getting the LCA Mk1 right. Show me!
9. Focus on the post natal period of LCA's IOC. The HF24 was often AOG'ed because of a lack of split pins! I am not being skittish when I say raise the first squadron at Yehlanka – provided there are sufficient 'married men's quarters'. House rent in Bangalore is exorbitant!
10. Just as GTRE has to be reorganized ADA has to be re-peopled if it is to be effective. Aircraft design is not all 'science". It still is an art. We always had the "Science "part but in setting up ADA the "Arts" part was clearly neglected.

Everyone loves a good drought

Public spending is always attractive for those who get to spend the money. It would appear that somewhere in the warrens of policy making there are people who want the LCA as a big fat project; they want it to continue indefinitely so they do not want it to succeed. The fact that we have the LCA flying is proof that at the engineer level there is no shortage of necessary skills. The problems of the LCA are simple and correctable. They must have been all known within the early days of flight testing. A reasonable sized group of young engineers suitably mentored could have solved them long ago. The question that must haunt the Defense Minister is that why were the problems allowed to fester for so long.

The ADA LCA: Beloved Aircraft or a Lemon | idrw.org

The points raised by Das are simply incorrect, See my comments in the name of Sakthivel ramasamy in the following link,
Prof. Prodyut Das: The ADA LCA: Beloved Aircraft or a Lemon
he has not yet given any convincing explanation at all til date. And most of his calculation are also wrong as well,
he never replies to criticism of his flawed logic and calculations .
ignoring lift to drag ratio in the comparison column is criminal. With out this parameter there is no use in making any comparison at all.
He is a Mech Engineer not an aeronautic as well.
 
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sgarg

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I am bit mesmerized as this "Bengali" attack on LCA Tejas. Is it something to do with COAS Raha being a Bengali??

The GOI has not sanctioned any such analysis. Such reports only cause confusion in public's mind.
 

warriorextreme

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The points raised by Das are simply incorrect, See my comments in the name of Sakthivel ramasamy in the following link,
Prof. Prodyut Das: The ADA LCA: Beloved Aircraft or a Lemon
he has not yet given any convincing explanation at all til date. And most of his calculation are also wrong as well,
he never replies to criticism of his flawed logic and calculations .
ignoring lift to drag ratio in the comparison column is criminal. With out this parameter there is no use in making any comparison at all.
He is a Mech Engineer not an aeronautic as well.
You should write a rebuttal article before this analysis creates unnecessary confusion.
 

pmaitra

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The points raised by Das are simply incorrect, See my comments in the name of Sakthivel ramasamy in the following link,
Prof. Prodyut Das: The ADA LCA: Beloved Aircraft or a Lemon
he has not yet given any convincing explanation at all til date. And most of his calculation are also wrong as well,
he never replies to criticism of his flawed logic and calculations .
ignoring lift to drag ratio in the comparison column is criminal. With out this parameter there is no use in making any comparison at all.
He is a Mech Engineer not an aeronautic as well.
Prof. Das is placing LCA between Gnat and MiG-21. He is comparing it with a Sukhoi-7.

Wow!

And he says That Tejas is a pure delta (in one of his comments).

Well, @ersakthivel, it is good that you have asked him some questions and given him a link to DFI to answer the queries.
 
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Khagesh

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There are always people who want to 'feel smart'. That is their weakness. They are smart but they are weak, so they give in to their feelings. I read that article by Prof. Prodyut Das in the hope that he would present some radical analysis and conclusion. A non-engineer like me understood easily that he is not even bringing into picture the really cool stuff about LCA.

And to start an article with "cause more worry than cheer. The postponements are now routine" and moving up the challenge to "The real troubles will begin then" and interspreding the write up with comments like "ADA is an organization that is risk averse" and then finally to make a insipid / limpid statement like "I think if we just focus on the weight reduction and we will get a useful enough warplane. After that only minor tweaks – may be the wing tweak should be done" should be declared by law a blasphemous KLPD, punishable by a banning from the world wide web.

The really funny part is the one that reads after "Everyone loves a good drought". WTH.
 

karn

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It his article which is spam , not my comments,


You can rest assured that this govt is not going to shut the Arjun production line after 118 orders.

Your useless explanations border on the ridicule.

1, The Guptha guy has spoken about lack of canards on tejas being the reason for shortfall in ITR, STR and make it look like as if the 20 percent extra powered GE-414 wont let it reach those specs, which are completely baseless ,technically ignorant claim!!!!

2. he not only read my comments, he replied to them in a condescending voice thinking , I will just let go. So your contention that he is not reading my long comments is wrong.

3. The guy pretty much knows he has no answers to my queries , when he blurted out that completion of a vertical loop in 20 seconds by tejas in Aeroindia 2013 with 6G and 20 Deg AOA limitation has no combat relevance. he has also deleted his own comments saying the same thing!!!

4. And if somebody does not have the comprehension to read a couple of pages of simple stuff (with no formula, heavy calculation at all), he should shut all his holes tightly and refrain from commenting on defence matters,

5. And I copy pasted my own comments made in the forum. Not somebody else's.

Your inability to say anything about the points I raised in my 10 or 20 comments(which were all deleted in a flash by the guptha guy) says that you don't have any basic understanding of what is being discussed in this thread. Instead of trying to understand what is being discussed here you are making useless claims on Guptha's behalf like,

"Because nobody reads a wall of text especially when you copy paste it . When you don't take the time to edit our posts and make them concise how do you expect someone to take the time to read them ? He deletes your posts the for the same reason spam is deleted. What you are asking us to do is the definition of spam.
Besides I don't really care ... We will see within 2 years whether the tejas will have any significant modifications to the airframe and we will see within 3 months whether the rafale will join the IAF"

which is simply a pathetic explanation.

By cosying up to some one higher ups in defence sector and getting a few things right(for so many bluffs of him which were proved false you can visit BR) is no indication of his genius.

Also using that credibility of getting a few prediction right to say the lack of canards is the reason for short falls in ITR and STR is simply ridiculous.

And then abusing a contrary point of view and deleting some very good comments,(which was appreciated even by other visitors in the comment column) is a totally dishonest path of blogging.He uses the internet to gain popularity and spread misinformation. But loathes it when it comes to acknowledging contrary points , for which he has no explanation at all.

And calling the contrary view expressed by Ajai shukla as "yellow journalism" is down right crooked in nature. An intellectually dishonesty guy who pathetically deletes my comments repeatedly unable to give a decent reply or letting them stand with no explanation, has no right to call the other person "Yellow journalist".

Opposed to this comment deleting crook , at least MR. DAS has let my comments stand(same as the one deleted by Guptha) , in his blog,which is the first step in simple honesty,
Prof. Prodyut Das: The ADA LCA: Beloved Aircraft or a Lemon

It is very strange of you take cudgels on behalf of such a pathetic person !!!!
Sort of like I didn't read this wall of text either .

A T-90 with its ammo lying exposed on the floor of the tank , can kill all its crew in ammo cook up resulting from a simple seep through explosion resulting from LTTE landmine types.But Arjun with its safe ammo storage wont blow up and kill its crew . It will stand its ground and fight . For that express purpose it was made heavy with separate safe ammo storage and exceptionally good armor protection.

All this has been discussed thread bare in Arjun threads, we can take further discussion on these matters to that thread. Before that go through the thread to understand the topic. Prasson Sen Guptha type education on defence matters is never going to help much in any discussion.
Yea I read that thread and couldn't help but laugh at the mental gymnastics you guys engaged in trying to justify that keeping ammo right in the front is safe .
A mine can also set off the ammo kept right next to the driver on the arjun . There are enough pictures of burnt out abrams in Iraq to attest to the fact .
 
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ersakthivel

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@karn
Prof. Das is placing LCA between Gnat and MiG-21. He is comparing it with a Sukhoi-7.

Wow!

And he says That Tejas is a pure delta (in one of his comments).

Well, @ersakthivel, it is good that you have asked him some questions and given him a link to DFI to answer the queries.
Prof Das will never reply to my comments under the name sakthivel ramasamy in any technically substantial manner.

Not because he does not know the real truth!!!


I can count on prof das to maintain his strategic silence in this matter forever.

but this THRISUl guy is really a strange beast,

he wrote that no one in ADA has any clue about tejas mk2, (because according to him without canards tejas mk2 can not cut it)
To RAD: All canards are active. Neither the Tejas Mk1 nor the LCA (Navy) Mk1 in weaponised modes fulfill the agility reqmts (especially sustained turn-rates) as mandated in the ASQR & NSQR. That's the very reason why the Tejas Mk2 & LCA (Navy) Mk2 projects are being undertaken. Not only that, all that has been taken up so far as far as their R & D efforts go concern only the cockpit avionics updates. No one is willing to go on record about the far more daunting airframe redesigns. And that is because the IAF & IN have both mandated that IRST should be incorporated & secondly, agility should be enhanced by reducing aerodynamic drag. And this can be done in only two ways: incorporation of active canards (& not LEVCONs) & if that's not possible, then incorporation of thrust-vector control nozzles. And the latter isn't possible since GE Aero Engines hasn't developed such TVC nozzles for the F414 family of turbofans. So, the only option now left on the table for ADA is to incorporate active canards & this in turn will require the MRCA's fuselage to be stretched & when this happens, then wing cord/ wing area too will have to be increased. This, ultimately, will result in a totally new airframe design that will require comprehensive flight-testing for airworthiness certification purposes—a process that will take almost 4 years to complete. So, if the first of 3 Mk2 prototypes is rolled out between 2018 & 2020, then SP-series Mk2 will start rolling off from HAL no earlier than 2025, & FOC-status will be achieved only three years later in 2028. And that was precisely the reason why this time at the expo no one from ADA or the IAF or IN was even willing to talk about the Mk2 variants. This being the state of affairs, even the mere mention of the AMCA would appear to me to be grossly blasphemous, although the DRDO honchos openly stated during the expo that they once again wanted to opt for imported turbofans for the AMCA!!!
I wrote ten or twenty detailed comments (all of them published in the last 5 pages of this thread),

he is busy deleting them furiously for hours!!!

Even one of the readers in his blog commented why the comments are not there,
http://trishul-trident.blogspot.in/2015/02/the-great-aero-india-2015-tamaasha.html

Anonymous said...
@prasun
Sakhtivels comment - apparently 100 planes handed to USAF without IOC- is it true then?-you did not refute this one.
That aircraft ditch their armaments when making a run from a bvr.
There were a few more but I cannot seem to find them now on this forum.
I understand you countered well , my point was that some of his points and yours together gave a better understanding of one aspect of pilot tactics to a lay person like me. Something I would never know,read or be able to find by myself.

Cheers
Wellwiser
His reply was,

To SAKTHIVEL RAMASAMY: Why they're being deleted? Simply because you're copying/pasting rants drafted by retards who have no clue about what exactly was revealed by ADA, DRDO & CEMILAC officials during successive press-conferences on February 19 & 20 & which were later reported in various AI-2015 Show Dailies. In case you or those retards are interested in finding out more about such press-conferences, then I suggest you start collecting these Show Dailies & read their contents, since the 'desi' newspapers never published the details of any of these press-conferences.

February 28, 2015 at 7:35 PM
I also gave him a link to this forum in my comments

This retard does not even understand that I am copying and pasting my own comments from this forum .

This guy claims he received "secret press briefing " from ADA guys regarding that!!! This retard is claiming that if I collect show dailies , I will come to know why without canards tejas mk2 can not fulfill IAf ASR specs!!!

In case if he has conclusive proof from attending those press briefings and collection "show dailies" why should he retort to the wretched tactic of deleting my comments. he could have simply contradicted me with points gleaned from,press briefings and collection "show dailies" .

I also gave him a link to this forum in my comments. lets hope guptha guy shares his top secret knowledge gleaned from attending those press briefings and collection "show dailies" to our members as well.

The following was his ingenious reply to my question why tejas mk1 could complete a vertical loop in aeroindia 2013 within 20 seconds even with 6g and 20 deg AOA restrictions?(because rafale too completed the vertical loop with more or less the same time as tejas mk1 did)


To PAWAN: Retards like SAKTHIVEL RAMASAMY never factor in the fact that for aerobatic demonstrations, combat aircraft NEVER fly with their maximum fuel loads in order to ensure more-than-usual high thrust-to-weight ratios. In fact, dedicated formation aerobatic teams like the ones of the Russian Air Force fly stripped-down Su-27s & MiG-29s that are devoid of even MMRs & other related combat mission avionics. Consequently, to assume that the flight manoeuvrability characteristics displayed by a MRCA during aerobatic demonstrations also applies in equal measure to the very same MRCA when armed with its weapons load & carrying more internal fuel, is outrageously preposterous.
guess what, he says it flew without full fuel load and external weapons. I replied to him whether he is hundred percent sure that all other fighters that perform the same aerobatics do so with full fuel,and external load.
Another reader also asked the same question,
Prasunda,

On your comment regarding LCA Tejas's problems, I read this comment in one forum:

"Even tejas mk1 was not seen flying with its top AOA limit of 26 Deg and 8 plus G limits in any flying limits.

its extreme flight envelope is not yet fully opened.

And even within 6G and 20 Deg AOA limit of AeroIndia 2013 it completed a vertical loop within 21 seconds.

Ask Prasun SenGuptha what will be the thrust to weight ratio of tejas mk2 after GE-414 and what is the wing loading and G limit, AOA limit of tejas mk2 after GE-414 ?

And let him compare those figures with contemporary fighters and then we will see what agility problem remains."

I am wondering who is right here? On one hand, there are recorded interviews of all Tejas pilots, Suneet, Maolankar and others who say that its a great plane. On other hand, IAF's stalling methods say that something is missing in the picture.

What do you say? What is Tejas? is it really MiG 21+++ or Equal to Mirage - 2000? Where is the capability? Finally, when BVR age is dominant, why would you be so concerned with its agility?
For that his reply was,

To SUBIR BHATTACHARJEE: Firstly, what's shown during air shows are aerobatics, not air combat manoeuvres. Therefore, extreme flight manoeuvres are never exhibited duri8ng such events. Secondly, aerobatics are flown by aircraft in clean formation & not in weaponised configuration. Therefore, doing vertical loops in 21 seconds or 20.5 seconds is just immaterial. As for parameters like wing-loading, G-load, AoA limit etc etc, these are just figures asked by adolescent fanboys. In air combat, what matters most is the instantaneous turn rate, sustained rate, climb rate, pitch rate & roll rate—all this when carrying weapons. Has anyone to date from ADA or the IAF released any such figures? Has any foreign OEM from the West, Russia or China released any such figures for their MRCAs? Such figures can't be extrapolated from aerobatic manoeuvres performed during air shows. Nor will experimental test-pilots reveal such figures for obvious reasons. Agility still matters when dissimilar air combat engagements involving gun-versus-gun scenarios.
All dog fights also occurs in close to clean config.

It is stupid to say that doing a vertical loop in 20 seconds is immaterial. it directly says something about the agility of the plane in vertical loop,
because all the fighters that display their agility in air shows do so with out full fuel loads and full weapon loads.So conditions are same for all. And they will also show the same degree of slow down when added with corresponding external fuel loads and weapon loads.but it is not important because in close combat fighters will ditch all their external loads sans a few WVR missiles to use their full agility.

And these following lines are joke of the year perhaps,

G-load, AoA limit etc etc, these are just figures asked by adolescent fanboys. In air combat, what matters most is the instantaneous turn rate, sustained rate, climb rate, pitch rate & roll rate—all this when carrying weapons.
All these things ,"instantaneous turn rate, sustained rate, climb rate, pitch rate & roll rate" are directly related to these specs,"G-load, AoA limit , wing loading , thrust to weight ratio and max lift from large wing area".

And no fighter can pull more than 5gs when carrying full external loads, So when facing a BVR shot or in WVR fight all fighters ditch their heavy external loads and keep just a few WVR missiles to pull those high g turns to evade the missile or the enemy fighter.

this bum does pretends that all these crucial stuff are immaterial fan boy stuff. And only his retard rantings are greatest aerodynamic truth perhaps,!!!



But since then ,he is also maintaining a very strategic silence till now!!!!
 
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