ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

Which role suits LCA 'Tejas' more than others from following options?

  • Interceptor-Defend Skies from Intruders.

    Votes: 342 51.3%
  • Airsuperiority-Complete control of the skies.

    Votes: 17 2.5%
  • Strike-Attack deep into enemy zone.

    Votes: 24 3.6%
  • Multirole-Perform multiple roles.

    Votes: 284 42.6%

  • Total voters
    667
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sgarg

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Dont you think Radars used on Indian aircrafts have really less range? Current Tejas mk1 can detect 5m2 rcs targets at just over 80 kms. Uttam can do as at just over 100 kms?
Why do you think it is low? If Uttam can detect 1m2 at 50-55km, it is more than adequate for the role.
In wartime, there will be ground based radars, AWACS, even satellites keeping an eye on the air picture.
 
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shiphone

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F404-GE-IN20 Powers Tejas Aircraft to Successful First Flight | Press Release | GE Aviation

HAL ordered an additional 24 F404-GE-IN20 afterburning engines to power the first operational squadron of Tejas fighter aircraft for the IAF in February 2007. This order, valued in excess of $100 million, followed an initial 2004 purchase of 17 F404-GE-IN20 engines to power a limited series of operational production aircraft and naval prototypes.
41 sets imported...just around 10 more IN20 engines short, but it seems some reserve is needed....

LSP-2,3,4,5,7,8, PV-5,6, NP-1 ,2 should be powered by IN20...10 in total...
 

grampiguy

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The new PJ-10 which reported to have 600km range is Pure Indian design and developed product, Russian are giving no assistance for mounting PJ-10 derivative to Tejas but their own kind, Result is what our people are now evaluating Nirbhay for Tejas ..
Could you clarify in detail about this? Which PJ-10 you are talking about ? Brahmos M/NG ??Give some more info on this, if available.
 

roma

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Tejas doing a vertical loop at 0.53s
it finished it in 20 seconds.
really ?
did it truly complete in 20 seconds ? is 20 secs a good time for such an operation ?
- with so much blackout in the video , are we beoming like the ccpland posters
who show their aircraft in one angle and then edit the video and show it doing gymnastics ?

i know there's little editing but a lot of blackout
i hope we are not in a state of pretense regarding the aircraft

as a first try, tejas mk 1 is "ok" in performance, we need to know the real cost
it ranges from 30 milllion us to even 75 million usd

i hope we are not taking the ostrich mentality .
 
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ersakthivel

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really ?
did it truly complete in 20 seconds ? is 20 secs a good time for such an operation ?
- with so much blackout in the video , are we beoming like the ccpland posters
who show their aircraft in one angle and then edit the video and show it doing gymnastics ?

i know there's little editing but a lot of blackout
i hope we are not in a state of pretense regarding the aircraft

as a first try, tejas mk 1 is "ok" in performance, we need to know the real cost
it ranges from 30 milllion us to even 75 million usd

i hope we are not taking the ostrich mentality .
Even in aeroindia2013 Tejas did complete a vertical loop in 20-21 seconds with no block outs. Rahulrds has already posted the clip a copule of years before.
Thum! Kaun Aata Hai?: LCA Navy - Nothing Succeeds Like Failure Redefined as Success!
Success from Failure

Failure of an endeavor is often just a turning point on the road to success. Failure is never absolute; it can at best be defined as lack of success. Sometimes, failure can even be redefined as success.

The Indian Government sanctioned Full Scale Engineering Development (FSED) of Naval Light Combat Aircraft (LCA-Navy), capable of operating from an aircraft carrier, on March 28, 2003 with a PDC of March 27, 2010. Had the Indian Government defined LCA Navy as a technology demonstrator project, which is what it has ended up becoming, there would have been no doubt about the resounding success of the project!

As a technology demonstrator project, the LCA leaped out of doldrums when Navy Prototype 1 (NP-1) successfully executed its first ski-jump take-off at the SBTF in Goa on December 20, 2014.

NP-1 attempted the ski-jump after a 300-m roll in clean configuration presumably with full internal fuel. The safe take-off required 150 knot at a climb rate of 6.4 degrees. But, the aircraft bested the benchmark with a climb rate of around 11 degrees.

The flight also validated the hands-off take-off algorithm of LCA Navy's Flight Control Software (FCS).
Reason for Better than Expected Performance
Press reports on the better than expected climb performance of NP1 have been confusing. Here is simple and precise explanation.

The LCA's GE-F-404-IN20 engine needs be at 80% RPM for around 5-min for it to give assured peak thrust at full throttle. Since it's not practical for an operational aircraft to wait for 5 mins before take-off, ADA had factored in the lower than max thrust when calculating expected rate and angle of climb on leaving the ramp. The aircraft designers were pleasantly surprised when due to higher than expected thrust NP1 outperformed the conservative calculations.

It's now clear that LCA Navy Mk-1 could carry more weapons and fuel than initially thought.

At Aero India 2015, IDP Sentinel asked LCA Navy Project Director Commodore CD Balaji if the better than expected performance could result in the aircraft being operationally deployed on a carrier, were the LCA Navy Mk-2 project to be delayed.

"LCA Navy Mk-2 will not be delayed," said Balaji with a lot of confidence. "We are close to freezing its design, which has been simplified. The new design would be easy to implement."

LCA Navy Mk-2

Commodore Balaji's confidence was eye-opening - The biggest pay-off from the LCA Navy project may well be ADA's increasing confidence in its ability to tweak fighter aircraft design to squeeze out better performance. This is evident from the following

LCA Navy Mk-2 has been designed from the ground up as a Navy fighter, independently of Tejas LCA Mk-2.

The fuselage of the aircraft has been broadened and the wing roots moved outwards. As a result, aircraft design has been optimized for supersonic flight with perfect conformance to area rule. (Tejas LCA and LCA Navy Mk-1 do not conform perfectly to area ruling resulting in high supersonic drag.)
Mid section fuselage broadening allows undercarriage bays to be shifted outwards, allowing a simpler, straight and light undercarriage as in the Rafale.

Mid section fuselage broadening also increases fuel capacity.

That is three birds with one stone!

Look closely at the photo of LCA Navy Mk-2 scale model at Aero India 2015, and compare it with the similar view of the LCA Navy Mk-1 on static display at Aero India 2015. Notice how the air intakes in the Mk-2 model bulge out to align with the broadened fuselage.

Finally, the following design layout of LCA Mk-2 from a brochure distributed during Aero India 2015 clarifies what I have stated above about the design tweaks.
 

sgarg

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19-March, 2012 16:31 IST
Orders for LCA Tejas
IAF has placed orders for 40 aircraft for LCA Tejas on HAL.
The deliveries of aircraft are scheduled in the 12th plan period.
Necessary funds for investment have been provided by the Government of India.

This information was given by Minister of State for Defence Shri MM PallamRajuin a written reply to Shri Jagdambika Pal in Lok Sabha today.

HH/NN
(Release ID :81178)
The above refers to a GOI release from 2012. It seems HAL did not place adequate orders for engines corresponding to IAF orders for LCA Tejas. This is strange.
The initial order for 17 engine was for PV and LSP series. The next order of 24 engine seems for SP series, based on dates. Something happened that reduced the order size, but no press release is available.

Now additional orders for Naval version (4 prototypes and 6 production) have been given. Again the engine order corresponding to this is missing.

The 41 engines ordered so far cannot be adequate for two TD, 5 PV, 8 LSP, 4 Naval prototypes (total 19), 40 IAF order, and 6 Naval order (46+19=65)

Not sure how much time it take for ordering an engine to delivery (I expect lead time of two years), but the numbers just do not add up; unless they are planning to plomp F414 in Mark-1.
@ersakthivel, HELP please.
 
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sgarg

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Prof. Prodyut Das: The ADA LCA: Beloved Aircraft or a Lemon

prof Das has replied to some of my comments. And I have replied to him also.

lets see what the prof will write back .

DFI members too can post some comments on this blog article , to make it interesting.
I am happy even if Tejas Mark-1 is a Mig-27 replacement. My logic is very simple. Mig-21 is replaced with Su-30. 200 Su-30 is more than 600 Mig-21 we had at the peak of Mig-21 squadrons.
8 Su-30 effectively replace a Mig-21 squadron.

We are upgrading Mig-29 and Mirage-2000. So our force structure is quite adequate as far as air-defence goes.

Our attack capability is inadequate with large retirements from Mig-27 fleet. Luckily LCA Tejas has proved a good bombing platform. However that goodness holds only if adequate Tejas units are put in the hands of IAF.

I am sure IAF will put Tejas to best use. The magic is in producing enough and giving to IAF.
 
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sgarg

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Honestly the attitude of HAL towards LCA Tejas has been uninspiring. HAL loves license manufacturing. Somehow HAL is not enamoured of LCA Tejas.

HAL has been very slow in making LCA Tejas deliveries. The GOI is positively worried with the situation at HAL.
 

roma

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@ersakthivel @sgarg @LETHALFORCE @Ray @sorcerer @Energon

i include below a summary of the conclusions of the retired professor of Mech Engg from IIT Kanpur
prof Das, in the article quoted a few posts above:- ( it is in fact the very last para of his article )

Everyone loves a good drought
Public spending is always attractive for those who get to spend the money.
It would appear that somewhere in the warrens of policy making there are people who want the LCA as a big fat project; they want it to continue indefinitely so they do not want it to succeed. The fact that we have the LCA flying is proof that at the engineer level there is no shortage of necessary skills.

The problems of the LCA are simple and correctable.
They must have been all known within the early days of flight testing. A reasonable sized group of young engineers suitably mentored could have solved them long ago. The question that must haunt the Defense Minister is that why were the problems allowed to fester for so long.


so it is not a technical problem, - once again it is management !

roma & nathan
 
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sgarg

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@roma, I think GOI is resigned to the fact that Mark-1 will fly with whatever positive/negative qualities it has. The focus is to complete FOC and deliver the planes to IAF. The tactics for LCA Tejas will be developed ONLY when it is placed in the hands of IAF pilots.

If the planes proves itself in IAF service, it is very likely that Mark-1 numbers will increase. I think clarity will be obtained only after FOC.

The deliveries from HAL this financial year are very critical.

The picture on Rafale will also clear up by middle of year when I expect GOI to take a decision this way or that way. Things should move quickly after that.

If MMRCA tender is cancelled, and HAL does not deliver on LCA, then GOI will be forced to import another fighter through Gov-to-Gov deal.
 
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Pulkit

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@roma, I think GOI is resigned to the fact that Mark-1 will fly with whatever positive/negative qualities it has. The focus is to complete FOC and deliver the planes to IAF. The tactics for LCA Tejas will be developed ONLY when it is placed in the hands of IAF pilots.

If the planes proves itself in IAF service, it is very likely that Mark-1 numbers will increase. I think clarity will be obtained only after FOC.

The deliveries from HAL this financial year are very critical.

The picture on Rafale will also clear up by middle of year when I expect GOI to take a decision this way or that way. Things should move quickly after that.

If MMRCA tender is cancelled, and HAL does not deliver on LCA, then GOI will be forced to import another fighter through Gov-to-Gov deal.

Each and every Aircraft comes with its own pros and cons.
There is ideally no aircraft which has such a brilliant record in terms of flights till now.

IAF is too spectical towards Tejas ,they need to have some confidence in Tejas.

Tejas is a good aircraft which fits ideally in IAF.


HAL is the second hurdle in the path of Tejas after IAF.
HAL needs to gear up to improve its deliveries and quality aswell.

I want rafale deal to be cancelled because then only IAF and HAL will be FORCED focus entirely on Tejas which is good for us and Tejas.

About Importing another A/C SU is always on cards .
 
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Ray

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@roma,

There seems to be some merit in what Prof Das has to say; at least that seems logical if one compares the time taken to design and build the HF 24 that was completely indigenous (except for the designer). It was just that the engine could not be procured to match its modern and pace setting design.

The DRDO scientists are comparable to any other in the world. If Indians were not as good, then how come they do outstanding work in foreign countries once they start working there?
 
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Ray

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I want rafale deal to be cancelled because then only IAF and HAL will be FORCED focus entirely on Tejas which is good for us and Tejas.
.

Yes, the deal could be cancelled, but not because the IAF will be FORCED to depend on Tejas.

Imagine, one being forced into a Car Rally with a car that has a fuel stoppage history that is yet to be solved.
 

Lone Ranger

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I am happy even if Tejas Mark-1 is a Mig-27 replacement. My logic is very simple. Mig-21 is replaced with Su-30. 200 Su-30 is more than 600 Mig-21 we had at the peak of Mig-21 squadrons.
8 Su-30 effectively replace a Mig-21 squadron.

We are upgrading Mig-29 and Mirage-2000. So our force structure is quite adequate as far as air-defence goes.

Our attack capability is inadequate with large retirements from Mig-27 fleet. Luckily LCA Tejas has proved a good bombing platform. However that goodness holds only if adequate Tejas units are put in the hands of IAF.

I am sure IAF will put Tejas to best use. The magic is in producing enough and giving to IAF.
do you even know how many 4+ gen fighters china and pakistan are inducting , iaf need quality fighters not tin cans like tejas.
 

LETHALFORCE

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@ersakthivel @sgarg @LETHALFORCE @Ray @sorcerer @Energon

i include below a summary of the conclusions of the retired professor of Mech Engg from IIT Kanpur
prof Das, in the article quoted a few posts above:- ( it is in fact the very last para of his article )

Everyone loves a good drought
Public spending is always attractive for those who get to spend the money.
It would appear that somewhere in the warrens of policy making there are people who want the LCA as a big fat project; they want it to continue indefinitely so they do not want it to succeed. The fact that we have the LCA flying is proof that at the engineer level there is no shortage of necessary skills.

The problems of the LCA are simple and correctable.
They must have been all known within the early days of flight testing. A reasonable sized group of young engineers suitably mentored could have solved them long ago. The question that must haunt the Defense Minister is that why were the problems allowed to fester for so long.


so it is not a technical problem, - once again it is management !

roma & nathan
Most of the delays in many projects are due to politics.
 
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sgarg

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Most of the delays in many projects are due to politics.
I agree. All on this board have noticed that ADA has undertaken a big re-design for Navy Mark-2 version. There are many changes to IAF Mark-2 version as well. So ADA is listening to the customer.

We must not act like an impatient child. LCA Tejas is far more than assembly of plane as it includes a large number of labs and private vendors. It is grooming an entire ecosystem.

The timeline would have been shorter if GOI commitment was bigger. Due to limited commitment, ADA has been cautious which I can understand.
 

LETHALFORCE

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I agree. All on this board have noticed that ADA has undertaken a big re-design for Navy Mark-2 version. There are many changes to IAF Mark-2 version as well. So ADA is listening to the customer.

We must not act like an impatient child. LCA Tejas is far more than assembly of plane as it includes a large number of labs and private vendors. It is grooming an entire ecosystem.

The timeline would have been shorter if GOI commitment was bigger. Due to limited commitment, ADA has been cautious which I can understand.

I am not impatient the final product is the most important thing. But sometimes politics
Cause price increases which cause further delays .
 
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