ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[Santu]

this is why
Defence News - PM asks DRDO to complete Defence projects in time

 

[ersakthivel]

Confused .... There are two reasons ...
Arjun Brigade view V/S others ....

Which one is own to them?

Swami accurately predicted that rafale would win and and an indian private sector giant will join in JV way back in 2011 with out any technical evaluation ofcourse.

And Do you think V.K. Singh does not know how UPA-top brass-arms lobby combo work beautifully ?

What was the reason the IAF gents unleashed sound and fury on tejas in vayu conference?

To pre empt the new govt citing national security,

Sure they were not this vehement on tejas in UP joint, which i more or less upna dhukan,

 

[ersakthivel]

AFAIK, yes. Even upgrades have to be okayed by cemilac. I have seen news regarding cemilac certification for EW suites of various IAF birds upgraded by DARE.

As far as you know it may be correct,

But who did the documentation for SU-30 MKI upgrade?

Sukhoi or Indian air force or HAL?

The SU-30 MKI version was a special IAF ordered version. And some knowledgeable sources in a forum said it was IAF pilots who did the documentation on Su-30 MKI.

 

[ersakthivel]

5% more accurately.



IAF ordered the first squadron in 2004 and the second in 2007.



They are the first to start something that hasn't tried before in such a large program. Their safety net is the size of their program anyway.



You don't get it. So no point explaining it.

Anyway, IOC certification is given after the first squadron is inducted. Technically, IAF should give LCA IOC only after the first squadron is inducted. And IOC standards in the US are far stricter.

F-35 is restricted to 20 deg AoA in regular flight but has already been tested to 60 deg. LCA is being tested for 22+ deg only today. You can see US standards.

IOC 's purpose is to declare that the basic airframe avionics combo is airworthy ,plane has reliable and repeatable performance ,and can be operated by regular pilots instead of test pilots "within the opened flight envelope".

ofcourse many a DDM junkies dont know a sh!t about the meaning of the word "within the opened flight envelope".

They say endlessly that tejas has only cleared 22 or 24 deg (whichever they fancy), not knowing a sh!t that it is capable of clearing much more in full flight envelope opening tests with all LSps modified to IOC-2 standards.

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/erelease.aspx?relid=102056
===============================
LCA Tejas Gets Initial Operational Clearance for Induction into IAF
IOC of LCA a Major Milestone in Self-Reliance: Antony
Flight Safety Record of Tejas is Unprecdented in Aviation History: ACM Browne

The Defence Minister Shri AK Antony today handed over the Release to Service Certificate of the country's own Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), Tejas, to the Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne, at a function in Bengaluru, marking the fruition of a long and difficult journey of three decades of efforts to make a fighter aircraft of international standards.

Described as Initial Operational Clearance-II of Tejas, the LCA is designed to ultimately replace the Mig 21 fleet of IAF. The timing of IOC- II for LCA coincides with the iconic Mig 21 FL fighter flying into IAF's history just a week ago.

Visibly happy at today's event, Shri Antony said, during the last three years, the capabilities of the aircraft have been improved significantly. "In recognition of the enhanced capabilities, IAF has decided to grant the aircraft a higher status, namely, the Initial Operational Clearance for induction into the Service", he said.

Shri Antony candidly confessed that he had his share of anxieties regarding the future of LCA when he had taken over as the Defence Minister in 2006 but today we are putting behind the moments of self –doubt, frustrations and setbacks which we as a nation have gone through in the last 30 years.

"The improvements to the aircraft have enhanced the flight envelope of the aircraft and also weapon delivery capability of the aircraft. The performance at Iron Fist, Jaisalmer and the recent missile firing at Goa are examples of such improvements.

The reliability of the aircraft and serviceability has also been enhanced. The number of flights nearing 500 within this year provides an indication of this. Operating at IAF bases namely, Jamnagar, Jaisalmer, Uttarlai, Gwaliar, Goa, Leh, Pathankot demonstrate the aircraft capability to operate from Air Force bases.

There have also been occasions when the same aircraft has flown thrice on the same day, indicating the operational reliability of this home-bred fighter aircraft ", he said.

Shri Antony said military aviation in the country has got a major boost with the approval of several new programmes. Some of these programmes include – Mk2 variants of Navy and Air Force; Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft; Unmanned Air Systems; Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft and Medium Transport Aircraft, to name a few.

Describing the attainment of Initial Operational Clearance as an important milestone in the long journey towards indigenization through self-reliance, Shri Antony said, our public and private sector must work in tandem to develop and produce world-class military systems of the highest quality.

The Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne said it is indeed a proud day for the nation and particularly for the IAF; since the grant of IOC acknowledges the capabilities of this aircraft and paves the way for the induction of LCA Mk 1 into operational service. He said the progress of such a challenging experimental project without any accident or major incident is unprecedented in the history of aviation.

On a personal note, ACM Browne said as he prepares to hang his uniform at the end of this month, he would have gone home as a disappointed person if the IOC of the LCA had not been achieved.

Today's event was attended among others by the Scientific Advisor to RM Shri Avinash Chander, Secretary Defence Production Shri GC Pati, Chairman of HAL Shri RK Tyagi, Programme Director of ADA Shri PS Subramanyam, DG- Aero and CE CEMILAC Dr K Tamil Mani.

A Long Journey

The Country had embarked on an ambitious plan to indigenously design and develop the Light Combat aircraft (LCA) to be inducted into IAF and Indian Navy inventory. The Programme has been spearheaded by the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), Bangalore under the Department of Defence R & D, with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) as its principal partner. A large number of Laboratories of Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO) and Central Scientific & Industrial Research (CSIR), certification agencies, Indian Air Force, academic institutions and Private/Public Sector Undertakings participated in the LCA development effort.

Indian Light Combat Aircraft, christened 'Tejas', is the smallest, light weight, single engine, single seat, supersonic, multirole, combat aircraft and is one of the best in its class in the world. The quadruplex digital fly-by-wire flight control system ensures acceptable handling qualities while ensuring adequate safety throughout the flight envelope. The advanced Glass cockpit open architecture system complements piloting. Four variants of Tejas aircraft (Combat variant, Trainer and Naval variants) are being developed for land and carrier borne operations.

The Initial Operational Clearance-1 (IOC-I) for 'Tejas' was achieved on 10 Jan 2011. In IOC-I, the Aircraft had a few limitations in terms of Combat performance, turn around time and its weaponisation which had to be refined and improved through Research & Development process. In addition to this, Wake penetration trials, all weather clearances were planned beyond IOC-1.


Since IOC-1, 'Tejas' has accomplished significant milestones. Till date, more than 2450 sorties have been completed to achieve the flight test goals towards IOC-2. The design issues were resolved with System Engineering approach and by periodical reviews with participation of external experts.

The salient features which have been achieved in IOC-2 include Safe flying up to High angle of Attack as mandated by the users. This has considerably enhanced the combat performance of the aircraft.

The Flight control system evaluation has also been completed. The time for initial built-in test has been reduced considerably which enables faster turn around and enhanced operational readiness of aircraft. The Brake system has been improved significantly in terms of energy absorption capability during landing, thus ensuring prompt turn-around of the aircraft.


Significant improvement in Cockpit ergonomic and lighting system has been accomplished for improved night flying. In-flight re-light capability was demonstrated to ensure enhanced safety and reliability of the aircraft. This is a major achievement. Avionics and Weapon system of the aircraft have been revamped for effective mission superiority. Helmet Mounted Display Sight (HMDS) has been fully integrated in Tejas and

R73E missile firing has been successfully demonstrated using HMDS.


Multi Mode Weapon multirole capability of Tejas was demonstrated during its participation in Iron Fist. Air to Ground mission and Air to Air missions were demonstrated by dropping Laser Guided Bombs and R73E firing in single pass. Laser Guided Bomb firing has been achieved for IOC-2 to user's satisfaction.


Aircraft readiness for missions in terms of its readiness and Operational Readiness Platform (ORP) and Turn Round Service (TRS) and easier maintainability has been achieved as per requirement thus enhancing operational readiness of the aircraft.

Tejas has passed all the tests for "All Weather Clearance" of the aircraft. The Aircraft has been cleared for fly without any telemetry support.

IOC-2 shall enable Air Force to carry out air superiority and offensive air support missions, forward air field operations, all weather multi role operations, Electronic counter measures and night flying operations.

LCA Tejas is capable of flying non- stop to destinations over 1700 km away (Ferry Range). It's Radius of Action is upto 500 km depending upon the nature and duration of actual combat.

LCA is powered by the F404/IN20- a well proven turbofan engine, designed and manufactured by General Electric Aircraft Engines, USA. The Engine is modular in construction, consisting of six modules, ensuring easy maintenance. The F404-GE-IN20 is a low bypass turbofan engine, with augmented thrust provided by the afterburner.

Production Facilities

The production facilities have been set up at HAL and the aircraft delivery is expected to commence from 2014. "We have plans to initially produce eight aircraft per year. Further plans are afoot to enhance the production rate to 16 aircraft per year in consultation with IAF and MoD. HAL is fully geared up to meet the challenging production schedule and hopes to fulfil the requirements of customers in a time bound manner", says the Chairman, HAL, Dr RK Tyagi.

After the achievement of IOC II, HAL will go ahead with the Series Production of LCA Tejas. The Company has already established the structural assembly hangar and the assembly jigs have been calibrated with state of the Laser Trackers to an accuracy of 80 microns (0.08 mm) to meet stringent quality standards. A state of the art CNC drilling machine has been installed to ensure repeatability and reduce the cycle time.

===============================

If F-35 was tested till 60 deg why was it not allowed to operate at 60 deg?

As usual you are twisting the facts here, the IOC-2 certification says AOA cleared 24 deg, even before a single tejas was inducted into IAF.

As per the vaunted US standards F-35 even after 100 fighters inducted in USAF was not allowed to reach the 24 deg till recently.

And where is the source for your only 22 deg AOA claim for Tejas?

Some DDM as usual.

http://tejas.gov.in/IOC-Brochure.pdf

"Envelope expansion upto 24 deg completed"

"operational readiness platform scramble demonstrated".

"spool down engine relight successfully demonstrated"

"fuel system, general system, brake management system demonstrated"

"super sonic at altitude"

"night flying, all weather clearance, wake penetration demonstrated"

"flight flutter test for operational clean and with heavy stores".

"successful flight trials with indigenously developed composite external fuel tanks".


"multi role capability demonstrated in Iorn fist with simultaneous release of LGB , chaff flare dispensation, R-73 E missile firing all within 100 seconds"

if you are honest please quote from where you got the 22 deg AOA claim.

 

[ersakthivel]

It may sound bad but it is a great news in disguise. At least HAL won't be killing any test pilots or trainee pilots by developing a new lead in trainer from scratch :thumb:

Ofcourse Imported Airforce has sole propriety over killing test pilots with fcked up mig-21 ejection seats that does not work in low altitude .
How dare HAL trying to compete for this honour?

Meanwhile, someone hasn't updated these fellows:-
A few small production pushes for LCA - The Hindu

ohhhh,, What a shame?,The Imported Airforce has lost a golden opportunity with chase my revised ASR ass game with HAL , on the lead in trainer fighter trainer front, with DDM dogs barking endlessly,

What a loss to nation's favourite pass time,

 

[power_monger]

AoA in regular flight but has already been tested to 60 deg. LCA is being tested for 22+ deg only today. You can see US standards.

In Angle of attack what matters is the the angle at which maximum performance can be extracted from the jet. In most of the aircrafts including F35 it is not more than 28-30. rest all are fancy numbers. You need to understand this before chest thumping on US standards.

 

[ersakthivel]

In Angle of attack what matters is the the angle at which maximum performance can be extracted from the jet. In most of the aircrafts including F35 it is not more than 28-30. rest all are fancy numbers. You need to understand this before chest thumping on US standards.

It was stated more than ten times in this forum .These fancy numbers have nothing to do with combat and are all stall recovery numbers with very limited operation use.

All modern RSS fighters have their combat effective AOA at around 26-28 deg.

these fancy 50 plus numbers too can be demoed in LSP-6 experimental aircraft with parachute attached in spin trials. But it has nothing to do with IOC of FOC or combat effectiveness of the airframe design.

The tejas test pilot Suneeth krishna clearly said that AOA on tejas can go beyond 28 deg like any other fighter and it will continue to be improved even after FOC. But for combat where the lift co efficient from wings needs to reach maximum with full control of fighter it will be in 26-28 range like all other modern 4.5th gen fighters,

After that stability will have to be bolstered by using slats on the wings and tejas was designed to reaches 35 deg AOA with the help of this bolstered stability from slats, but for combat operations its AOA too will be capped around 26-28 deg.

tejas has a fabulously low wing loading to add to this AOA spec, which means it will have one of the best lift force availability from wings at these AOAs as it has proportionately the largest wing area relative to weight among all other fighters in the world.

And vortex generation with compound delta wing form will further delay the flow separation leading to better lift to drag ratio at all times.

naval tejas mk2 is to have LEVCONs to add to this for short take off and landing. Whether it will be added to IAF version is not clear now.It is important to note that PAKFA or FGFA uses also the same compound delta Relaxed Static Stability Wing form with LEVCONS for vortex generation and flow separation(in place of canards in euro canards for the same purpose) in the same way as proposed on naval tejas.

But trolls and Desi Dork Media(DDM) never learn.

but thanks to these barking dogs, this is becomming the fate of DRDO--""DRDO is becoming hollow at the bottom," says Dr Avinash Chander, the agency's chief. He said he can induct only about 70 fresh scientists every year instead of the nearly 300 recruits it used to add annually till recently."

if such false alarms are raised who will join DRDO? i think this is the real motive behind such ferocious attack on DRDO by DDM planted news carrying guys and imported airforce gents farting endlessly at Vayu stratpost conference. And they are succeeding.

lets see what Modi does for DRDO. Even though he spoke some very harsh words, if he does anything meaningful to reverse this trend, it will be worthwhile.



At least he has shown the initiative in visiting the place and speaking some hard facts unlike the UPA joint which happily slept at the wheel,even refusing to raise the DRDO budget to 7 percent of Defence budget, so that they can give stop gap funds to crucial projects , which will cut the delay. lets see how he revamps DRDO with attractive packages to lure young engineers back in to meet his goal of

" "At least five DRDO labs should be identified exclusively for innovation with young scientists up to the age of 35 years. They should be managed by leaders also in the same age group". "

 

[p2prada]

In Angle of attack what matters is the the angle at which maximum performance can be extracted from the jet. In most of the aircrafts including F35 it is not more than 28-30. rest all are fancy numbers. You need to understand this before chest thumping on US standards.

There are many things that are entirely worthless about aircraft, including top speed. But there are minimum and maximum specs that need to be achieved so the aircraft "graduates."

The F-35 achieved those specs, LCA didn't. It means there are deficiencies on the jet that do not allow those specs to be achieved. All specs are interrelated. If AoA specs are not achieved, it means it is affecting other specs as well. So, if top speed is not achieved, it is because the aircraft is overweight or engine is underpowered. Now, aircraft being overweight and engine being underpowered are entirely different issues, but are completely related to each other. You can't have one without the other. So, if AoA is lower than expected, it may also be affecting other parameters which are related to it. This is how it goes. Like a chain reaction.

Most of the times, Americans and Russians surpass basic specs when they design their aircraft. For eg: USAF wanted the F-22 to be 1500 times smaller in RCS compared to the F-15. LM surpassed that by a huge margin.

US and even Russian standards are way too high, everybody in the industry all over the world acknowledges that. So, when they induct the F-35 before it achieves IOC, it is because they have planned the program in such a way that an ineffective aircraft doesn't really affect their combat readiness.

All the F-35 they induct before IOC are training aircraft anyway. Since LCA Mk1 did not achieve ASR, it has also been relegated to training duties. You can say Mk1 is like the F-35's concurrency versions before the more capable Mk2 is available which will become the standard version.

 

[Punya Pratap]

Dear p2prada, would you please enumerate the points on which you think Tejas has not achieved the intended specs coz as far as the officials are concerned AoA is completed along with the top speed as per the below mentioned official link

http://www.tejas.gov.in/IOC-Brochure.pdf

I dont understand why people do nt factor in the fact that our intelligent neighbours are actively and enthusiastically pursuing indeginous fighter programs such as j series and JF 17 either they are lunatics or they have understood that to secure yourself you need to be able to stand on your own feet. Do you think Pakistan is nuts pursuing JF 17 coz that plane is elemantary but they foresee a future and unlike our pampered IAF, PAF is inducting them in blocks with Block 1 being at best rudimentary.

Any threat perception that is done factors in the capabilities of your enemies so please tell me this :

WHICH PLAAF & PAF FIGHTERS ARE CAPABLE OF DEEP STRIKES IN INDIA AND WHY ARE THESE TWO AIRFORCES PURSUING THEIR INDEGINEOUS FIGHTER PROGRAM AND THEN MAYBE YOU COULD ALSO TELL ME WHY THEN IS IAF RAISING THE BOGEY OF THREAT ANALYSIS??

While you are answering please also let me know why cant we follow the same method our smart neighbour is pursuing vis a vis the JF17 having inducted in the phased manner knowing fully well it cannot hold a candle to IAF's MKI's, Mirages, Mig29's & hell even Tejas MK2??

I will tell you what the PAF & Pakistani administration understands..... GoI does nt have the gumptions to go for a surgical strike or any conventional war with Pakistan. They have tried to instigate us and we simply dont have the [email protected] country other than India could suffer an attack on the very seat of its power like the attack on its Parliament and not launch a counter strike. Forget the rest of the insults even if Pak sponsered terrorist took out our President we would nt have the guts to retaliate..... You know why?? BEcause India is aware of Pakistan's first use nuclear strike option will cause an unprecedented slaughter and all they need to counter India....even the Nasr is enough to counter the rumoured Cold Start doctrine and Pakistani army would rather induct Nasr in numbers than go for a new MBT!!

As for China, it will not launch an aggrasive attack on any of its neighbors with whom it has disputes and barring N. Korea it has issues with virtually everyone.....The USA was nt talking through the other end of its mouth when it launched its "pivot to Asia" It was to counter just this contingency and China knows it very well. The other factor is that within 3 years Chinese investments in India and the trade between the countries will be at a level where you cannot afford war.... this is another reason why Pakistani Army is dead set against giving MFN status to India.

When you cry yourself horse like the IAF does we need to remember that threat perceptions need to be balanced by diplomacy and economics.....diplomatically India will never be allowed to strike Pakistan no matter what it does and our meek civilian authority fears for the large population it acts as a custodian to. China diplomaticaly will not be allowed to hit out at India the same way we cannot hit out at Pakistan especially with Big Brother USA camped out in the neighborhood... Another conspiracy theory (My previous one was actualy not of my making but ann article from New York Times ) Japan & India will have a secret defence past with the blessings of USA if they dont have it by now..... historically every time a nation tries to become a threat the threatened have formed a coalition so dont be surprised if we see more and more overt Vietnam, Philippines, Japan, India & Australian exercises along with USA.

Your fancy Rafale will not be a strike weapon to hit deep either in Pakistan or China in the next 10 years atleast so why waste the money on a 4.5 Gen fighter aircraft which is of a Medium category (defies logic beyond the Hi/Lo - MKI/Tejas etc combo) Spend this money on FGFA & AMCA coz if you ought to feel threatened than it has to be J-20's not the Su30MKK or J10's of PLAAF !!

There are many things that are entirely worthless about aircraft, including top speed. But there are minimum and maximum specs that need to be achieved so the aircraft "graduates."

The F-35 achieved those specs, LCA didn't. It means there are deficiencies on the jet that do not allow those specs to be achieved. All specs are interrelated. If AoA specs are not achieved, it means it is affecting other specs as well. So, if top speed is not achieved, it is because the aircraft is overweight or engine is underpowered. Now, aircraft being overweight and engine being underpowered are entirely different issues, but are completely related to each other. You can't have one without the other. So, if AoA is lower than expected, it may also be affecting other parameters which are related to it. This is how it goes. Like a chain reaction.

Most of the times, Americans and Russians surpass basic specs when they design their aircraft. For eg: USAF wanted the F-22 to be 1500 times smaller in RCS compared to the F-15. LM surpassed that by a huge margin.

US and even Russian standards are way too high, everybody in the industry all over the world acknowledges that. So, when they induct the F-35 before it achieves IOC, it is because they have planned the program in such a way that an ineffective aircraft doesn't really affect their combat readiness.

All the F-35 they induct before IOC are training aircraft anyway. Since LCA Mk1 did not achieve ASR, it has also been relegated to training duties. You can say Mk1 is like the F-35's concurrency versions before the more capable Mk2 is available which will become the standard version.

 

[Punya Pratap]

Meanwhile :::

India Said to Target Signing Rafale Fighter Jet Deal by End 2014
Published August 22, 2014 | By admin
SOURCE: BLOOMBERG



India aims to sign the contract for the world's biggest order of fighter jets in about two decades with Dassault Aviation SA (AM) by the end of the year, two Indian air force officials familiar with the matter said today.

Negotiations on technology transfer and maintenance for 126 Rafale aircraft have been completed, the officials said in New Delhi, asking not to be identified as the discussions aren't public. Discussions on the price must still be completed, they said. The deal will probably be for more than $11 billion.

In 2012, the Indian government chose Dassault to supply at least 126 Rafale combat planes after initiating the purchase plan about five years earlier. Until India decided on the Rafale, Dassault had failed to win any export contracts for the jet.

Asia's third-largest economy has tripled defense spending over the past decade as it increasingly looks beyond Russia to modernize the military and orders arms from countries including the U.S.

Nungsanglemba Ao, an Indian defense ministry spokesman, declined to comment on the Rafale order. Stephane Fort, a spokesman for Paris-based Dassault Aviation, didn't respond to a message on his mobile phone or an e-mail.

While the country of 1.2 billion people is both a nuclear power and the world's biggest arms importer, defense spending in India is near a half-century low as a percentage of the economy and many weapons are obsolete.

China, the biggest spender on defense after the U.S., has doubled its defense budget since 2006.

Dassault Aviation shares were little changed at 1088.95 euros in Paris at 1:30 p.m. The stock has climbed 17 percent this year, compared with the 2.2 percent gain in the Stoxx Europe 600 Index.

 

[ersakthivel]

There are many things that are entirely worthless about aircraft, including top speed. But there are minimum and maximum specs that need to be achieved so the aircraft "graduates."

The F-35 achieved those specs, LCA didn't. It means there are deficiencies on the jet that do not allow those specs to be achieved. All specs are interrelated. If AoA specs are not achieved, it means it is affecting other specs as well. So, if top speed is not achieved, it is because the aircraft is overweight or engine is underpowered. Now, aircraft being overweight and engine being underpowered are entirely different issues, but are completely related to each other. You can't have one without the other. So, if AoA is lower than expected, it may also be affecting other parameters which are related to it. This is how it goes. Like a chain reaction.

Most of the times, Americans and Russians surpass basic specs when they design their aircraft. For eg: USAF wanted the F-22 to be 1500 times smaller in RCS compared to the F-15. LM surpassed that by a huge margin.

US and even Russian standards are way too high, everybody in the industry all over the world acknowledges that. So, when they induct the F-35 before it achieves IOC, it is because they have planned the program in such a way that an ineffective aircraft doesn't really affect their combat readiness.

All the F-35 they induct before IOC are training aircraft anyway. Since LCA Mk1 did not achieve ASR, it has also been relegated to training duties. You can say Mk1 is like the F-35's concurrency versions before the more capable Mk2 is available which will become the standard version.

no modern 4.5th gen fighter ha a combat usable AOA of more than 28 deg AOA.

Higher AOAs are only for a very restricted flight regime with massive drag and fighter itching to go out of pilot control with no combat relevance.

Tejas too can achieve these brochure specs once LSP-6 comes.

But all it has to do is to reach 26 deg -28 deg before FOC.

beyond thirty degree drag increases massively and lift starts to fall. No use in close combat , recovering is tough and by the time one recovers the enemy (who uses below 28 deg AOA with max lift force and wing with full aerodynamic efficiency,) would have a firing position on you.

The reason F-35 has been tested but not allowed to use is this. Because it has no

 

[ersakthivel]

There are many things that are entirely worthless about aircraft, including top speed. But there are minimum and maximum specs that need to be achieved so the aircraft "graduates."

The F-35 achieved those specs, LCA didn't. It means there are deficiencies on the jet that do not allow those specs to be achieved. All specs are interrelated. If AoA specs are not achieved, it means it is affecting other specs as well. So, if top speed is not achieved, it is because the aircraft is overweight or engine is underpowered. Now, aircraft being overweight and engine being underpowered are entirely different issues, but are completely related to each other. You can't have one without the other. So, if AoA is lower than expected, it may also be affecting other parameters which are related to it. This is how it goes. Like a chain reaction.

Most of the times, Americans and Russians surpass basic specs when they design their aircraft. For eg: USAF wanted the F-22 to be 1500 times smaller in RCS compared to the F-15. LM surpassed that by a huge margin.

US and even Russian standards are way too high, everybody in the industry all over the world acknowledges that. So, when they induct the F-35 before it achieves IOC, it is because they have planned the program in such a way that an ineffective aircraft doesn't really affect their combat readiness.

All the F-35 they induct before IOC are training aircraft anyway. Since LCA Mk1 did not achieve ASR, it has also been relegated to training duties. You can say Mk1 is like the F-35's concurrency versions before the more capable Mk2 is available which will become the standard version.

I dont know why you are lying for the nth time,

I have posted initial ASR given by none other than Air marshal MSD woolen head of the HAL,

top speed-1.5 mach at tropopause,
max take off weight--12.5 tons,
empty weight-5.5 tons.
super sonic at all altitudes,

Now empty weight is 6.5 tons.
but top speed achieved till now is mach 1.6,
max take off weight is 13.25 tons.
super sonic at all altitudes,

If the engine under performs due to excess empty weight, how can tejas reach mach-1.6 and lift 13.25 tons?
Despite going a ton over original weight tejas improved its top speeds to mach 1.6 not reduce it.

And only IAF knows what is the top speed of euro canards in hot indian condition, the speeds given by them and G limits were all for ISDA conditions were temperature substantially lower than indian hot conditions.

In aeroindia 2013 both rafale and tejas mk1 completed vertical loop in 21 seconds.

The foreign programs are well funded with experienced staff, In tejas it was frugally funded , specs changed mid way, leading to mid way redesign of wing.

if Us standard are so high , why was F-35 flying with an AOA of less than 16 deg and speed much less than its original top speed till today, despite the massive funding and man power support?

Why is IAF saying PAKFA is substandard?

PAKFA is going on for close to two decades and neither engine nor radar is ready.Why?

Weight growth happens in any program, SO even during the initial design phase people would have given some allowance for unexpected weight growth and design with redundancy.

Most of the Euro canard guys are lying with glossy brochures, none of them has been in extensive service through third party air forces in varying hot climatic condition.

But all of tejas figure is for hot indian conditios, recently the 3600 Km hi lo hi combat range(in cold climates) rafale needed refuelling every 1500 Km with no weapons on in reunion island flight.

gripen's issue with crashed due to pilot induced oscillation due to canard design are too well known.

 

[Defcon 1]

There are many things that are entirely worthless about aircraft, including top speed. But there are minimum and maximum specs that need to be achieved so the aircraft "graduates."

Top speed plays role in BVR warfare where it is used to impact high initial KE to the launched missile.

On topic, F35 inductions before IOC also have to do with the fact that LM is basically arm twisting the US government. Thats bare crony capitalism on play here.

 

[p2prada]

Top speed plays role in BVR warfare where it is used to impact high initial KE to the launched missile.

Top speed is not used for fighting. Top speed is barely ever achieved. Most pilots have never even achieved top speed on their jets throughout their life. They won't even have achieved supersonic speeds for more than a few minutes through their entire careers, thought this might change on F-22 and PAKFA because of supercruise.

On topic, F35 inductions before IOC also have to do with the fact that LM is basically arm twisting the US government. Thats bare crony capitalism on play here.

Not at all. It is called concurrency. It is a fairly new technique and is being adopted in many industries. The F-35 isn't the first to use this method.

The reason is because large projects have large gestation periods. In that time, technology that is new today become obsolete in a few years. Concurrency has two main objectives in the F-35 program. One is to get the pilots flying the jet ASAP. The other is to continue the design stage during the production stage. So you can bring in design changes when the aircraft is already in operation.

This keeps the jet relevant for a much longer period which the F-35 itself attains systems maturity much faster. This way USAF can bring in requirement changes quickly.

Naturally, there is a difference between being in operation and being war ready. Meaning, an IOCd F-35 is war ready, it can fire the AMRAAM, full sensor capability is almost ready and most of the PGMs are integrated, a FOCd LCA Mk1 is just a trainer, it is not war ready. So, here the standards itself are different.

Concurrency is something only highly experienced players can tinker with.

Concurrent engineering - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[p2prada]

Dear p2prada, would you please enumerate the points on which you think Tejas has not achieved the intended specs coz as far as the officials are concerned AoA is completed along with the top speed as per the below mentioned official link

IAF will let us know once LCA achieves FOC. As of today, they don't believe it is a fighter yet.

The "real" LCA is yet to achieve first flight.

I dont understand why people do nt factor in the fact that our intelligent neighbours are actively and enthusiastically pursuing indeginous fighter programs such as j series and JF 17 either they are lunatics or they have understood that to secure yourself you need to be able to stand on your own feet. Do you think Pakistan is nuts pursuing JF 17 coz that plane is elemantary but they foresee a future and unlike our pampered IAF, PAF is inducting them in blocks with Block 1 being at best rudimentary.

Yes, we should also emulate Pakistan's democratic aspirations and Olympic standings. Since when did we have to compare ourselves to a gutter bug? Or are you saying LCA is plenty enough to be comparable to a gutter bug?

What is FGFA for then?

WHICH PLAAF & PAF FIGHTERS ARE CAPABLE OF DEEP STRIKES IN INDIA AND WHY ARE THESE TWO AIRFORCES PURSUING THEIR INDEGINEOUS FIGHTER PROGRAM AND THEN MAYBE YOU COULD ALSO TELL ME WHY THEN IS IAF RAISING THE BOGEY OF THREAT ANALYSIS??

The PAF have F-16s. Apart from Flankers, the PLAAF have JH-7A strike fighter and the H-6 bomber.

Apart from that PLAAF have already become the first country to test a hypersonic glide vehicle.

PressTV - Pentagon alarmed by China's new hypersonic glide vehicle: Official

So, in 10 years, the Chinese DPS capabilities should be much higher than India's will ever be.

PAF doesn't really have an indigenous program. China's indigenous programs are a hundred levels above ours.

We have one major indigenous program called FGFA.

While you are answering please also let me know why cant we follow the same method our smart neighbour is pursuing vis a vis the JF17 having inducted in the phased manner knowing fully well it cannot hold a candle to IAF's MKI's, Mirages, Mig29's & hell even Tejas MK2??

That's not smart. That's dumb. Or that's a poor man's gamble.

How many JF-17s have the Chinese inducted?

I want my pilots to laugh as they take out a hundred JF-17s like they are clearing cockroaches at the push of a button. I want my pilots to win without having to give much of a fight. LCA isn't that answer. Rafale is for today, followed by the FGFA. While Rafale will be indigenously produced, FGFA will have some components of R&D done in India apart from indigenous production. Half of LCA is imported in comparison.

I will tell you what the PAF & Pakistani administration understands..... GoI does nt have the gumptions to go for a surgical strike or any conventional war with Pakistan. They have tried to instigate us and we simply dont have the [email protected] country other than India could suffer an attack on the very seat of its power like the attack on its Parliament and not launch a counter strike. Forget the rest of the insults even if Pak sponsered terrorist took out our President we would nt have the guts to retaliate..... You know why?? BEcause India is aware of Pakistan's first use nuclear strike option will cause an unprecedented slaughter and all they need to counter India....even the Nasr is enough to counter the rumoured Cold Start doctrine and Pakistani army would rather induct Nasr in numbers than go for a new MBT!!

As for China, it will not launch an aggrasive attack on any of its neighbors with whom it has disputes and barring N. Korea it has issues with virtually everyone.....The USA was nt talking through the other end of its mouth when it launched its "pivot to Asia" It was to counter just this contingency and China knows it very well. The other factor is that within 3 years Chinese investments in India and the trade between the countries will be at a level where you cannot afford war.... this is another reason why Pakistani Army is dead set against giving MFN status to India.

When you cry yourself horse like the IAF does we need to remember that threat perceptions need to be balanced by diplomacy and economics.....diplomatically India will never be allowed to strike Pakistan no matter what it does and our meek civilian authority fears for the large population it acts as a custodian to. China diplomaticaly will not be allowed to hit out at India the same way we cannot hit out at Pakistan especially with Big Brother USA camped out in the neighborhood... Another conspiracy theory (My previous one was actualy not of my making but ann article from New York Times ) Japan & India will have a secret defence past with the blessings of USA if they dont have it by now..... historically every time a nation tries to become a threat the threatened have formed a coalition so dont be surprised if we see more and more overt Vietnam, Philippines, Japan, India & Australian exercises along with USA.

Your fancy Rafale will not be a strike weapon to hit deep either in Pakistan or China in the next 10 years atleast so why waste the money on a 4.5 Gen fighter aircraft which is of a Medium category (defies logic beyond the Hi/Lo - MKI/Tejas etc combo) Spend this money on FGFA & AMCA coz if you ought to feel threatened than it has to be J-20's not the Su30MKK or J10's of PLAAF !!

Yes, you're cute. Now go back to being a grownup.

 

[ersakthivel]

IAF will let us know once LCA achieves FOC. As of today, they don't believe it is a fighter yet.

After choosing rafale which has a radar dia smaller than tejas mk2, who values Imported Airforce claims?

The "real" LCA is yet to achieve first flight.

There are no real , unreal or surreal LCAs, Infact there is no more any such thing called LCA.

Only tejas mk1 and mk2, that will be good enough for IAF if procured with the same amount of money spent on rafale.

Yes, we should also emulate Pakistan's democratic aspirations and Olympic standings. Since when did we have to compare ourselves to a gutter bug? Or are you saying LCA is plenty enough to be comparable to a gutter bug?

What is FGFA for then?

Only a dollar printing machine will give GOI the ability to fund both rafale and FGFA so close at near 20 billion dollars each.

The PAF have F-16s. Apart from Flankers, the PLAAF have JH-7A strike fighter and the H-6 bomber.

Apart from that PLAAF have already become the first country to test a hypersonic glide vehicle.

PressTV - Pentagon alarmed by China's new hypersonic glide vehicle: Official

So, in 10 years, the Chinese DPS capabilities should be much higher than India's will ever be.

If you really want to counter chinese DPS threat put some PIRATE like kit on tejas mk2 and buy 300 plus and put them in patrol with meteor ,Astra,ASEA combo.


With passive PIRATE giving firing (by detecting jet exhaust of two huge engines of chinese flankers and J-20, J-31 combo, 5th or 4th gen)solution at BVR range , we can build a great wall of india to counter chinese threat, 5th gen or 4th gen.

Since tejas has a lesser emitting single engine it can always track first and shoot first, which rafale can not because it too gives away huge IR signature from two engines. Even with ASEA radars it is the same case, larger and more powerful ASEA radar on tejas mk2 cant do worse than rafale.

Dont buy 126 rafales which have lesser ASEA radar and mysterious active cancellation techniques, that were never independently verified against any modern ASEA radar.

Day dreaming with deep strikes in Tibet with non stealth Rafale in an air space contested by 5th gen J-20s and J-31s is a harbinger of disaster.

Imported Airforce can instead concentrate on FGFA of some urgent PAKFA buys if they are really serious in deep striking tibet.

PAF doesn't really have an indigenous program. China's indigenous programs are a hundred levels above ours.

PAF need not have any independent program, all chinese stuffs will arrive, So lesser rafale number wont be effective in future if PAF gets chinese stuff like J-31 and J-20.

We have one major indigenous program called FGFA.



That's not smart. That's dumb. Or that's a poor man's gamble.

How many JF-17s have the Chinese inducted?

I want my pilots to laugh as they take out a hundred JF-17s like they are clearing cockroaches at the push of a button. I want my pilots to win without having to give much of a fight. LCA isn't that answer. Rafale is for today, followed by the FGFA. While Rafale will be indigenously produced, FGFA will have some components of R&D done in India apart from indigenous production. Half of LCA is imported in comparison.

Guy seems to be too busy in android games.

When Sweedish Air borne early warning aircraft Erreye picks up rafales engaged in DPS and radar silent JF-17s getting vectored to the right place , to fire their dual band chinese long range BVRs, how will rafale pilots , (just 126 of themfor the 20 billion dollars ) will kill all the JF-17 cockroaches?

Pray tell me the components of FGFA to done with indian R&D.

Hundred percent of rafale is indian perhaps,

Yes, you're cute. Now go back to being a grownup.

This is what the real rafale is supposed to be,

Nothing revolutionary, why waste 20 billions, just picked it up from somewhere on the net.

What is wrong with the Rafale?

I have noticed a lot of discussion on here lately about the Rafale and its inability to compete with the various other late 4th generation designs on the market today. In an effort to shed some light on this issue I have taken a moment to list some of the Rafale's major crippling flaws and their origins.

The single biggest issue with the Rafale, and the common thread throughout most of its major design flaws, is that its design team simply lacked sufficient vision of where the future of fighter aviation was heading.

Throughout the Rafale's design process its designers chose to go with incremental improvements rather than generational leaps in technology. The Rafale was intended to catch up to, rather than leap ahead of, aircraft that were designed years earlier such as the F-16 and Mig-29

. The end result is a somewhat refined, but badly overpriced aircraft that has struggled to even compete with the aircraft it was designed to match, and utterly lacks the potential to compete with newer designs.

The most obvious area where this lack of vision is displayed is in the Rafale's overall layout and its notable lack of signature reduction design features. The Rafale exhibits numerous features that would simply never be incorporated into any design intended to have a reduced RCS, including its prominent intakes, a huge vertical stabilizer, canards, a non-retractable refueling probe, and numerous other probes, protrusions, and other serious RCS offenders. What does this mean?


Late in the Rafale's design process its engineers realized that they had failed to anticipate the key role RCS reduction would play in future designs and scrambled to find ways to reduce the Rafale's RCS.

With minimal experience with RCS reduction and an airframe that was already too far along in its design to be fixed, the end result was of course disappointing. Shaping is the single most important consideration in RCS reduction and the Rafale has too many major flaws to ever be considered stealthy. RAM coatings and last minute saw-tooth edge features are at best minimally effective on an aircraft that is otherwise designed all wrong from the start.

Not only that, but the Rafale's maneuverability proved to be disappointing, comparable to, but only marginally better than that already offered by earlier 4th generation designs and noticeably lacking in comparison to its bigger brother, the Eurofighter. As the US/Israel found with the Lavi design, the improvement in aerodynamic performance available with such a design was insufficient to justfy the cost of creating an entire new airframe and a generational leap in performance would require a new approach.

Like its airframe, the Rafale's pit and interfaces sought to close the gap with earlier 4th generation designs. Drawing its inspiration from the US, the Rafale design team sought to replicate the hands on throttle and stick interface the US had adopted by the time the Rafale entered its design phase.

While the Rafale was largely successful in matching the interfaces seen in US fighters in the early 90s, its designers failed to see the direction future designs were heading. Today the Rafale's pit and human interface are at best mediocre in comparison to those found in other aircraft in production.

It lacks a helmet mounted site, a serious flaw in a WVR fight, and numerous other advanced features such as the Super Hornet's fully decoupled interfaces. Most critically, the Rafale's man machine interface lacks the defining features of a 5th generation design, such as advanced sensor fusion and sophisticated multi-purpose helmet mounted displays.

Probably the most famous and inexcusable design flaw in the Rafale is its unusually small and short ranged radar. While the US launched fully funded AESA programs and prepared for a generational leap in radar performance, for some reason the Rafale was designed with a PESA radar, a technological dead-end. Worse, the Rafale was simply not designed to accomodate a radar of sufficient size to operate effectively autonomously.

Now, although France is working to retrofit an AESA antenna onto its PESA back-end in the Rafale, the nose of the Rafale will simply not accomodate a competitive radar. The best the Rafale can hope to do is close some of its radar performance gap with aircraft like the F-16, but will never be capable of competing with designs like the Eurofighter or Super Hornet.

Finally, one of the most critcal flaws in the Rafale's design is its widely misunderstood "Spectra" self protection jammer and RWR suite. As was done with the F-16 and Super Hornet, the Rafale design team sought to incorporate an internal self protection jammer into the Rafale to improve its survivability against radar guided threats.

The major failure of Spectra was that its development cycle was far far too long and France's semiconductor and computer industry was simply incapable of providing the necessary components to create a truely cutting edge system. By the time it went from the drawing board to production, a period of over 10 years, it was barely able to match systems being offered by Israel and the United States on other 4th generation fighters.

The Spectra self protection jammer simply lacks the processing power, flexibility, and diverse threat response range available on aircraft like the Super Hornet, F-16 block 60, or modern Israeli systems. Not only that, but because of nearly continual funding shortages in development, Spectra lacks now-standard features such as sophisticated towed decoys and next generation jamming waveforms that it simply lacks the processing power or antennas to produce.

Instead, what Spectra offers are relatively simplistic signals generated by its prominent but inflexible and simplistic transmitters.(Based on narrow-band, inefficient MMICs, a constraint imposed by the lack of a domestic supplier for more modern MMICs, the same issue that has plauged France's AESA program.) Spectra is perhaps the least crippling of the Rafale's flaws, because it could potentially be removed and replaced with a more modern system.

Spectra tacks up a relatively large amount of space and power for what it offers, so a modern design could certainly do more with the same space and power supply, but France does not currently have the resources or certain key technologies to contemplate designing or building a system that would approach the power and flexibility of something like the F-35s EW system with its unparalled stealthy low power jamming modes.(and the ability to create incredibly powerful long range jamming modes if its AESA is used as a transmitter.)

So in summary, what went wrong? The Rafale was designed to match and compete with designs in operation in the early to mid 90s, but other design teams around the world were already moving ahead with generational leaps in stealth, electronic warfare, sensor fusion, and network centric concepts. By the time the Rafale design team recognized they had misjudged the direction of future designs, they lacked the resources and time to correct their mistakes. Now they are trying to find some way to obtain more money through exports so they can replace the Rafale's mid-90s radar, computers, jammers, etc so that they can at least keep pace with other 4th generation designs for a few years before being completely surpassed by 5th generation designs.

this is what gambit posted(some one who taught you on radars and stealth,)

The major problem with the SPECTRA-like method of active cancellation is that the system must sample a portion of the seeking radar's pulse train...

Basically...The transmitter turn itself on...Wait for a specified period of time...Then turn itself off. The rise and fall in power level constitute a pulse. Several pulses in a sequence make up a pulse train. How long is that sequence depends on the radar's intention and design. The appropriate analogy is a real locomotive with the gaps between sections.

A sample of several pulses must be studied. If the system take too short a sample in order to study the pulse train's signal characteristics to create a credible cancellation, the rest of the pulse train or next pulse train will reveal the aircraft. If the system take too long a sample, then the aircraft will be revealed anyway by the current pulse train. The seeking and therefore hostile radar can change the characteristics of each pulse train from one to the next.

The hostile radar can change the PRF from one train to the next, forcing the SPECTRA-like system to constantly recalibrate itself. The hostile radar is employing the tactic called 'PRF jittering'. The 'jittering' technique is common when the radar is operating in an electronically dense environment BUT the 'jittering' sequence is predictable. The radar using this technique will remember the exact sequence of the many PRFs and will perform the appropriate correlation to eliminate unwanted signals that may come from other radars in the vicinity. Civilian airports are places of where predictable 'PRF jittering' technique is used.

But for military purposes like ECM and ECCM, predictability is not always desirable and a 'non-cooperative target' is always looking for predictability. If the 'PRF jittering' sequence is known, this SPECTRA-like system will work as advertised. If the 'PRF jittering' sequence is not known, the system will create many anomalous echoes for the seeking radar, one moment the system successfully canceled the pulse train but with the new pulse train with a different pulse train characteristics the system must resample, which at the very least will make the seeking radar operator suspicious. The goal is to make the operator unaware, not suspicious.


A SPECTRA-like system is a good idea in application but not against first-tier militaries. Some second-tier militaries can manage to purchase first-tier radars and they will find the aircraft. The balance between sampling and response is what make the SPECTRA system difficult to employ precisely because of the unpredictability of potential adversaries.


This is why the SPECTRA is best against second and third tier militaries. First tier militaries are moving towards the much more versatile AESA radar system.

There are nine logical radars in ASEA, Each capable of performing independent action. An AESA radar looking for a SPECTRA equipped Rafale will find it through the use of multiple radars, from the same main array. The capability of the AESA is dependent upon the technological sophistication of the country wielding it, of course. There will no digital library possible for the SPECTRA to remember.

So a me too 4.5th gen fighter eating up the entire money intended for Tejas program being tom tommed by IAf evaluation team.

Compared to that when used with supporting EW platforms 400 plus tejas mk2s for the cost which is equal to 126 rafale will produce one great wall of india on china border which will be impossible to break through.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/german-led-european-cheaper-euro-fighter-typhoon/1/378279.html

Now Eurofighter TYPHOON is being offered with 20000 crore discount,

Even Kishore Biyani will faint!!!!!!!

Interesting why the germans waited till UPA was ousted!!!

This confirms that all the swirling gossips of irregularities in the fairest ever "fair ever " technical evaluation by IAF on 692 counts.

So the race is open once again.

i dont think Modi govt can miss out on such bachav offer.

Now we know why Modi govt has asked Dassault that price has gone beyond their limit.

And the panting urgency displayed by IAF worthies in the just concluded "Vayu(pure gas or purrrrrrr gas!!!)" conference.

if a change of govt brings a windfall of 20000 crore to indian tax payer, we can easily know why this discount was not offered during the previous regime's time.

The times are getting very interesting indeed.

Just a foot note not so insignificant, we can buy 126 tejas mk2s with the 20000 crore discount itself(originally MMRCA tender was just for a buy of 126 mirage-2000s, now even mk1 is on par with upgraded mirage-2000, mk2 will be near gripen NG!!!!)

We can easily understand why IAf worthies pounced on tejas as being less than Mig-21 bisons in the vayu fartfest!!!., taking navy guys by a huge surprise!!!!

They just want to conclude the deal before chickens come home to roost!!!!

This kind of urgency was never displayed on MMRCA front by IAF worthies during UPA regime , where things were more "settled".

but a tea vendor may or may not understand such niceties.

 

[ersakthivel]

Naturally, there is a difference between being in operation and being war ready. Meaning, an IOCd F-35 is war ready, it can fire the AMRAAM, full sensor capability is almost ready and most of the PGMs are integrated, a FOCd LCA Mk1 is just a trainer, it is not war ready. So, here the standards itself are different.

Apparently the trainer tejas mk1 demonstrated multi role capability by dropping tanks, firing R-73 E, and dropping LGBs all with in 100 seconds, while two full fledged Su-30 MKis supposed to do all that in IORNFIST failed to turn up,

Which trainer in the world has a radius of action of 500 Km, with a combat range of more than 1000 Km, internal EW suit and working refuelling probe. And has an ELTA 2032 hybrid radar capable of firing long range BVR misslies with a deadly combo of low clean config RCS to go with?

Tejas mk2 is going to have retracting refuelling probe further reducing RCS, Does Rafale F3 has that?

Which trainer in the world can take off with external fuel tanks and weapons from Leh even before inducted into IAF? 4 of the 6 famed MMRCA contenders failed in this high altitude trials .

No fighter which entered IAF was capable of that from the first day.

Which trainer in the world has a deadly combo of 1.07 TWR(half fuel load in close combat mode) and the lowest wing loading factor guaranteed for high G onset rate and quicker instantaneous turns most important in evading missiles or getting a first firing solution before enemy?

if there is such a trainer please close tejas mk1 production line and buy that wholesale.

For an airforce that is fielding close to 400 flying fossils, its fanboys are displaying disastrous bravado by calling it below Mig-21 bisons and trainer!!!!!,far removed from reality

 

[ersakthivel]

Raha, also Chairman of Chief of Staff Committee, said, Army is there, BSF (Border Security Fore) is there, the Air force is not directly involved, but things are not that bad. To a question, Raha said, "There is a lot of thrust being given on indigenous production of military hardware and I think this (Narendra Modi) government is also serious about pushing it further to take it to higher level."

Asked about delay in projects relating to indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft and Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT), Raha said, "...they are delayed slightly, but this happens in any indigenous production. First time we are doing it, there are many countries who have been at it for many many years..."

Declining to comment on whether any kind of replacement for IJT was being considered, he said "...We will get the IJT on time."

The IAF chief was here to inaugurate the 54th Annual Conference of Indian Society of Aerospace Medicine (ISAM). Addressing the conference, he emphasised the role of Aerospace Power in recent conflicts and brought out that it was the weapon of choice due to its reach, precision and speed of operations.

Pak ceasefire violations no cause for worry, we are prepared: IAF chief - IBNLive

Well , unlike a few self declared panting IAF fanboys here the present IAF chief is realistic

So unlike another set of IAF gents tearing into tejas for the delay in the vayu stratpost conference repeatedly caling it below Mig-21 bisons and asking for stopping the program,

Also this is what the guy who was with tejas for nine years says about tejas programs delays, present status, opposed to below Mig-21 Bison level, its just a trainer and close it down rants heard in vayu Stratpost conference.

"here is what P Rajkumar (IAF) who was involved with the LCA says -
quote -

Philip Rajkumar on May 1, 2012 at 6:01 am said:

philip rajkumar

I worked in the LCA project for nine years from 17 Sep 1994 to 31 Aug 2003 (actually 17 days short of nine years!). I was deputed to ADA by the IAF to oversee the flight test programme of the Technology Demonstration phase of the project. Having been on both sides of the fence i have a few points to make.

1. Development of a capable aeronautical industry is a small step by small step evolutionary process.Infrastructure and skill sets of the work force have to be built up over decades with considerable effort. All this requires investment of money and managerial resources.

Mainly due to financial constraints and lack of vision in the IAF, HAL and the GOI we allowed capabilities built up during the Marut and Kiran programmes to atrophy. While the world leapt ahead with several technological innovations like fly by wire,digital avionics and use of composites for structures HAL did not run a single research programme because it was not the practice to do research unless it was linked to a specific project.

2.The LCA project is where it is today thanks to one man-Dr VS Arunachalam who as the SA to RM in 1985 had the gumption and clout to go to the GOI and convince them that India could build a fourth generation fighter. It was a leap of faith no doubt.

3. HAL feels wronged about being asked to play second fiddle to ADA. This pique continues to hurt the project even today.

4. Without help from Dassault of France,BAE Systems UK, Lockheed Martin of the USA and Alenia of Italy we would not have succeeded in developing the fly by wire flight control system,glass cockpit,and composite structures for the two TD aircraft.

5. So far the flight safety record of the programme has been good. I pray every day that it remains that way. The loss of an aircraft early in the programme would have surely lead to its closure.

6.All pilots who have flown the aircraft say its handling qualities are very good. It means it is easy to fly and perform the mission.

7.It needs to be put into IAF sevice as soon as possible to gain more experience to iron out bugs which are sure to show up during operational use.

8.Programme management could have been better. IAF is to blame for washing its hands off the project for 20 years from 1986-2006. A management team was put in place at ADA in 2007.

9.Dr Kota Harinarayana and all those who have worked and continue to work have done so with great sincerity and dedication.
10.Indian aeronautics has benefitted immensely from the programme. It is a topic for separate research.

11. It was a rare privilege for me to have been given an opportunity to contribute to the programme by setting up the National Flight Test Centre and putting place a methodology of work which has ensured safety so far.

12. According to me the project can be called a complete success only when the aircraft sees squadron service for a couple of decades. We will have to wait but it is progressing on the right lines and we as a nation have nothing to be ashamed of."

 

[ersakthivel]

For people saying American standards on inducting F-35 was very high and F-35 was throughly tested before induction, and tejas is not, the following link gives some info to the contrary,
http://www.gao.gov/assets/670/661842.pdf

At the time the new F-35 acquisition program baseline was finalized, it did not identify new initial operational capability (IOC) dates for the three
military services. Initial operational capability is obtained when organizations or units have received a specified number of systems and have the ability to employ and maintain those systems.

The following year DOD issued a memorandum noting that Marine Corps and Air Force were planning to field initial operational capabilities in 2015 and 2016, respectively, and that the Navy planned to field its initial capability in 2018. The memorandum emphasized that the Marine Corps and Air Force initial operational capabilities would be achieved with aircraft that possess initial combat capabilities, and noted that those aircraft would need additional lethality and survivability

Delays in the testing of critical mission systems software have put the delivery of expected warfighting capabilities to the Marine Corps at risk,
and could affect the delivery of capabilities to the Air Force and Navy as well.

F-35 developmental flight testing is separated into two key areas: mission systems and flight sciences. Mission systems testing is done to verify that the software and systems that provide critical warfighting capabilities function properly and meet requirements, while flight science testing is done to verify the aircraft's basic flying capabilities.

In a March 2013 report we found that development and testing of mission systems software was behind schedule, due largely to delayed software deliveries,
limited capability in the software when delivered, and the need to fix problems and retest multiple software versions. These same challenges
continued thorough 2013, and as a result progress in mission system.

While the F-35 program was able to accomplish all of the mission system test flights it had planned in 2013, it did not accomplish all of the planned test points,11 Developmental testing of Block 2B software is behind schedule and will likely delay the delivery of expected warfighting capabilities.

The delivery of this software capability is of high near-term importance because it provides initial warfighting capability for the overall F-35 program, and is
needed by the Marine Corps to field its initial operational capability in July 2015.

As of January 2014, the program planned to have verified the functionality of 27 percent of the software's capability on-board the falling short by 11 percent. The F-35 program planned to fly 329 mission systems test flights and accomplish 2,817 test points in 2013. The program actually flew 352 test flights, exceeding the goal, but
only accomplished 2,518 test points. According to program and contractor officials, slow progress in developing, delivering, and testing mission systems software continues to be the program's most significant risk
area.

Close to hundred F-35 fighters have already been produced , but the IOC target is 2015.
So all fighters mature after induction. Same with tejas . SO no fighter in the world demonstrates everything at IOC for induction.

 

[ersakthivel]

Narendra Modi extremely unhappy with DRDO’s failure to meet deadlines in delivering products - The Times of India

The long range SAM was a joint project delayed with israeli preoccupation with iorn dome.

TOI is known for its main defence correspondents simply posting BS like the delays on LRSAM solely placed on DRDO steps, and ignore the raft of reasons that are behind the delays in critical projects like tejas and Arjun


Hope the new govt restructures DRDO to produce better results,

It should hold every one accountable, and go to the bottom of the issues which is impeding young engineers and scientists from joining it.because if not remedied this problem will make DRDO deadwood in the decades to come.

new govt must ensure the participation of private industries from the research stage itself. It should pick up the small and medium private industries that have been co opted by DRDO till now and give them credits on priority basis to scale up their research in some VC style funding options.

It should also allow specialists from other fields walking in on critical projects with short consultant nature employment with high pay scales and rewards to shake up the hierarchy and revitalize the organization. Revising pay scales , promotions and tying them up with successful project implementation on time will attract IIT students. massive amount of foreign exchange is saved by timely delivery and completion of high tech weapon systems, So why shouldn't the govt hold impressive bonus and promotion avenues for the talented guys responsible for it? if this system is followed only timely deliverers will ascend to the top .Just treating it as another govt org to be administered by IAS babus in MOD is a waste of time.

It should also hold services responsible for their initial ASR and GSQR requirements . It should ensure purchase of viable quantity of platforms so that it acts as a spark for private industry to step into manufacturing filed.

49 percent FDI raise is welcome decision. But it alone wont bring in tech as any JV foreign venture partner will withhold key tech in his home country for key hig end systems and will only bring in secondary assembly tech here.

Or critical projects must be given like out US where two different entities competing for the same projects with their own models. here the GOI should fund a private entity to recoup R&D costs in case project fails. This will impart a new dynamism to the whole thing and reduce the risk of delays to the services.

The Navy, however, is not too ruffled at the moment, celebrating as it is the induction of two major warships in a major boost to domestic shipbuilding. "Both INS Kolkata and INS Kamorta are state-of-the-art warships, packed with other weapons and sensors, even if they have suffered from delays" said controller of warship production and acquisitions Vice Admiral A V Subhedar on Wednesday.

Similarly, the Hamas-Israel conflict is being kept under watch since the "final hot tests" for the LR-SAM missiles are slated for September-October. "The delay was due to technical glitches, which have now been resolved. Based on success of the tests, we will begin to induct the missiles. INS Kolkata has heavy-duty guns, rockets, electronic warfare suites and chaff systems for protection," said Rear Admiral A B Singh.

The DRDO-IAI project is vital for plugging air defence gaps in India's operational capabilities. In addition to the Rs 2,606 crore naval project, the SAM system is also being developed for IAF under a bigger Rs 10,076 crore programme. The SAM systems, once ready, are to be produced in bulk by defence PSU Bharat Dynamics.

All the three service should sport a supporting attitude displayed by navy towards indigenous item. there is no use in expecting them to be world beaters in the first product induction. Only after maturing they can deliver results. While importing cutting edge critical items should be done, Importing everything under the creed of we only buy the best in the world will derail the Indigenous production efforts forever.

If it is done consistently then no private sector firm will step in and we will lose the race to china. Because in the long run no indian military can win a war with few in number imported items against massive superiority in number deployment by chinenese.

At least the new govt is concentrating on the job from day one. Hope it leads to better results.