Please go through the entire acquisitions panned out for IAF in the 13th & 14th Year Plan... we are inducting Light/Medium & Heavy all together making our IAF mix of 7 different types
DRDO gets nod for French tie-up for Kaveri project - The Hindu
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Interestingly, the government's nod, which is expected to cost the exchequer at least Rs 1,000 crore, comes nine months after a team, headed by Air Vice-Marshal M. Matheswaran and comprising officials from the ADA, the IAF and the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, submitted a report that stated that an engine developed jointly by Snecma and the GTRE would not meet the IAF's performance requirements. The IAF also wanted the Kaveri project delinked from Tejas programme.
According to informed sources, members of the Matheswaran team were critical of the French passing off their existing and fully developed 'Eco' engine core. This, the team felt, would not give India the engine core design knowledge or even control over it. It also pointed out that the design technology being handed out would take years to come.
Based on the report, the French offer was put on the backburner with even officials from Snecma stating that the "chapter was closed." But the IAF for reasons not yet clear, appear to have reversed its stand.
Snecma, which indicated that an engine run of at least 250 is required to make their offer economically viable, agrees that an existing core would be at the heart of the Snecma – GTRE Kaveri engine.
It, however, denies it would take years for handing over the design technology. It will take at least five years before the first production engine comes out.
Snecma chairman and chief executive officer Philippe Petitcolin told The Hindu: "Yes we first stated a 15-year period to hand over the design technology, but now we have indicated that the technology can be given as fast as the Indians can assimilate it."
GTRE director Mohan Rao said the capabilities of "the existing French core will be enhanced to suit the IAF's requirements."
The GTRE hopes to use the Snecma – GTRE Kaveri to replace the GE F404 (IN20) engine that will fly two squadrons of the Tejas.
If all goes well the Snecma-GTRE tie-up could be formalised during the French President Nicolas Sarkozy's planned visit to India in March –April 2010. [/QUOTE]
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How could IAF team conclude that a 90 KN engine will not be enough for IAF needs?
Eventhough GE-414 gives 96 KN it weighs considerably more and has a bigger diameter.
SO it means that the tejas mk2's weight will go up.
Also since the fuselage has to be enlarged it will add to more skin friction drag and fuselage weight.
A 90 KN engine with the same dimension of K-9 and lesser dia won't have these issues. SO the shortfall of just 8 KN is not going to matter.
Also this engine can be used by Mig-29s also. A big problem with Mig-29 is the engine. Besides that AURA and AMCA could have used this engine as a test flight engine to speed up the development(same way in which chinese are using AL-31 engines for J-20 and J-31 and french using GE-404 on Rafale till M-88 was developed).
The JV would have given india its first working modern jet engine with a engine thrust weight ratio closer to that of M-88, since core used is the same.
Another plus is since K-9 is flat rated to give optimum thrust to give good performance across varying temperature ranges specifically suited to indian atmospheric conditions , it would have been much better fit on tejas.
But IAF stepped into give unsolicited advice. Who in the MOD allowed IAF to do this? DO they know whether IAF has any technical competence to do this?
And if IAF wanted a bigger engine it could have insisted on a newer engine jv for bigger K-10 as a replacement engine for Ge-414 and AMCA. But strangely IAF did not insist upon this either,They simply asked for the closure of the project saying that 90 Kn engine does not meet their requirement.
If at all IAf-MOD combine wanted to enter into a JV for higher powered brand engine with higher dia and weight equivalent to GE-414 they could have got it by holding Mirage-2000 and rafale deal as a bait.
It would be useful for Snecma also as JV gives a bigger engine with higher thrust.
They chose to do nothing offering lame excuse
http://centreright.in/2013/03/the-f...th-snecma-for-engine-technology/#.U-3J-_mSw6Q
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In 2006, MoD decided to seek foreign collaboration from reputed foreign engine manufacturers to produce an improved Kaveri. The problem is that countries do not part with such technologies easily. But India had an ace up its sleeve: its proposed medium multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal.Back in 2008, it was reportedthat DRDO had presented MoD a technology wish list, to be obtained in the form of offsets for defence acquisitions. MoD, however, preferred to buy these technologies as part of the contracts for the import of weapons systems. Accordingly, the RfP for the MMRCA deal reportedly prescribed the technologies the winning vendor must part with. Aero engine technology was surely the military technology India needed the most. As it has been widely reported, losing the MMRCA deal would have made the survival of several of the bidders as combat aircraft manufacturers doubtful. Considering these stakes, the MMRCA bid offered India the best leverage to obtain advanced aero-engine technology from the winner.
But the government of India does not believe in using its leverage in bargaining for what it needs most. It issued a stand-alone RfP for collaboration for developing an improved Kaveri in 2006. A separate RfP for the MMRCA deal followed a year later. The US General Electric (GE) and Britain's Rolls Royce refused any form of participation. America's Pratt&Whitney is on record having expressed its willingness to aid the Kaveri project.
But later reports said it was willing to participate only as a consultant. In 2008, MoD selected Snecma over Russia's NPO Saturn as the collaborator for the Kaveri. It was reported that it would take 4 years to develop and certify a new engine, after which the technology would be transferred to GTRE. MoD entered into separate negotiations with Snecma on this deal even as it was processing the MMRCA proposals.
These negotiations dragged on for more than three years. Meanwhile, the Dassault Rafale, powered by a Snecma engine, emerged as the lowest bidder among those shortlisted for the MMRCA and MoD began contract negotiations with it. Was Snecma playing a game, waiting for the finalization of the Rafale deal?
It would seem so. It appeared that in a bizarre twist, at this stage India had allowed France to make the Rafale deal an offset for the engine technology deal.
MoD then began negotiations with Snecma for a joint venture for the development of the Kaveri. Minister of State for DefencePallamRajutold Business Standard: "(Snecma) is willing to co-develop an engine with us; they are willing to go beyond just transfer of technology.
It is a value-added offer that gives us better technology than what we would get from ToT from Eurojet(the maker of the Typhoon's engine) or GE." This was misleading. GE and Eurojet were not contenders for the collaboration with GTRE. The technology they were offering was part of a deal for the import of 99 engines for the LCA Mark II. The kind of technologies sought for the collaboration on the Kaveri engine were not sought for this deal.
Officially, no specifics of what technologies Snecma would offer have been disclosed. A senior DRDO official said two years ago that the work share between GTRE and Snecma would be 50:50; that price negotiations would be completed "within a month"; and that GTRE would gain the intellectual property rights for the new engine.
Aviation Week reported in March 2012 that an agreement on the joint venture to develop and build a 20,230-lb-thrust engine would be reached by June that year. Snecma would provide "exhaustive know-how" on the technologies and manufacturing processes GTRE lacked, the sources for the report claimed.
n the wake of the VVIP chopper scam, Defence Minister A. K. Antony has promised corrective action. He cannot act until he finds out what really happens behind the scenes in the procurement process.
The complete lack of transparency in all matters relating to defence makes it easy for unscrupulous elements to manipulate the system. Antony must order a thorough inquiry into the whole Kaveri-Snecma saga. Several questions relating to this affair need answers. Who was pushing for delinking the Kaveri collaboration from the MMRCA tender?
What specifically did Snecma offer in its response to the RfP, and at what price? Why did the negotiations drag on for so many years, and on what basis were predictions of imminent agreement fed to the media on a regular basis (see here and here)? What were the reasons for the termination of the negotiations?
This charade could not have gone on for so long unless senior levels of the GTRE, MoD, and the IAF were involved. A top-to-bottom shakeup in the MoD, DRDO, and the services would inspire some confidence that it is not going to be, once again, business as usual.
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Snecma played along with negotiation till mirage-2000 upgrade and rafale winning the bid was done, then refused TOT.
IAF objected tooth and nail the proposed GTRE-Snecma JV for Kaveri saying that it will not meet their need
and there will be no"learning process for GTRE",Since Snecma was proposing to to induct its already fully developed M-88 core into the JV,
and it was all over.
I don't know Why IAF was interested in teaching GTRE on SCB. Now the same Snecma is delivering rafale with the M-88 core(same Eco core that IAF did not want for K-10) and IAF is perfectly happy over it.
I hope Snecma teaches IAF all the nitty gritty of making SCB blades of M-88 , so that in future IAF base repair depots will have learned how to make SCB on their own and help in designing of futre engines for IAF fighter projects, which IAF feared could not be done by GTRE, which at least has a working k-9 that meets the dry thrust needs and close to 85 percent of wet thrust needs.
The proposed JV (if bundled with the Mirage-2000 deal and rafale selection would have made it impossible for Snecma to say no to TOT.)would have given us a 90 Kn engine which could have been used as replacement engine for Tejas mk1 and could have good export prospects. But as it turned out , it was not to be.
The proposed JV ,if bundled with the Mirage-2000 deal and rafale selection would have made it impossible for Snecma to say no to TOT. But we all know how the UPA joint worked.
Atmost care was taken so that indian mil aviation sector faces the prospect of orphaned child for another two decades through the manner in which the three separate deals were worked out in three separate tracks and the most important one was buried with little fan fare.
Any hard nosed negotiator would have held Snecma to the proposed TOT terms by dangling the cumulative close to 30 billion MMRCA and Mirage-2000 upgrade that will be a cash cow for Dassault for the next two decades ,
There were many fighters in IAF and IN like MIG-29, Mig-29K that would have benefited from this 90 Kn engine, but for reasons known to itself IAF wanted GTRE to learn for another decade!!!!
Strange that an important JV is scuttled in such a mysterious manner.
Now GTRE is back to square one with a new international JV for engine development tender for AMCA . Almost a decade was lost in pursuing this Snecam JV .