ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[rahulrds1]

self delete

 

[ersakthivel]

Please go through the entire acquisitions panned out for IAF in the 13th & 14th Year Plan... we are inducting Light/Medium & Heavy all together making our IAF mix of 7 different types

DRDO gets nod for French tie-up for Kaveri project - The Hindu

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Interestingly, the government's nod, which is expected to cost the exchequer at least Rs 1,000 crore, comes nine months after a team, headed by Air Vice-Marshal M. Matheswaran and comprising officials from the ADA, the IAF and the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, submitted a report that stated that an engine developed jointly by Snecma and the GTRE would not meet the IAF's performance requirements. The IAF also wanted the Kaveri project delinked from Tejas programme.

According to informed sources, members of the Matheswaran team were critical of the French passing off their existing and fully developed 'Eco' engine core. This, the team felt, would not give India the engine core design knowledge or even control over it. It also pointed out that the design technology being handed out would take years to come.

Based on the report, the French offer was put on the backburner with even officials from Snecma stating that the "chapter was closed." But the IAF for reasons not yet clear, appear to have reversed its stand.

Snecma, which indicated that an engine run of at least 250 is required to make their offer economically viable, agrees that an existing core would be at the heart of the Snecma – GTRE Kaveri engine.

It, however, denies it would take years for handing over the design technology. It will take at least five years before the first production engine comes out.

Snecma chairman and chief executive officer Philippe Petitcolin told The Hindu: "Yes we first stated a 15-year period to hand over the design technology, but now we have indicated that the technology can be given as fast as the Indians can assimilate it."

GTRE director Mohan Rao said the capabilities of "the existing French core will be enhanced to suit the IAF's requirements."

The GTRE hopes to use the Snecma – GTRE Kaveri to replace the GE F404 (IN20) engine that will fly two squadrons of the Tejas.

If all goes well the Snecma-GTRE tie-up could be formalised during the French President Nicolas Sarkozy's planned visit to India in March –April 2010. [/QUOTE]

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How could IAF team conclude that a 90 KN engine will not be enough for IAF needs?

Eventhough GE-414 gives 96 KN it weighs considerably more and has a bigger diameter.

SO it means that the tejas mk2's weight will go up.

Also since the fuselage has to be enlarged it will add to more skin friction drag and fuselage weight.

A 90 KN engine with the same dimension of K-9 and lesser dia won't have these issues. SO the shortfall of just 8 KN is not going to matter.

Also this engine can be used by Mig-29s also. A big problem with Mig-29 is the engine. Besides that AURA and AMCA could have used this engine as a test flight engine to speed up the development(same way in which chinese are using AL-31 engines for J-20 and J-31 and french using GE-404 on Rafale till M-88 was developed).

The JV would have given india its first working modern jet engine with a engine thrust weight ratio closer to that of M-88, since core used is the same.

Another plus is since K-9 is flat rated to give optimum thrust to give good performance across varying temperature ranges specifically suited to indian atmospheric conditions , it would have been much better fit on tejas.

But IAF stepped into give unsolicited advice. Who in the MOD allowed IAF to do this? DO they know whether IAF has any technical competence to do this?

And if IAF wanted a bigger engine it could have insisted on a newer engine jv for bigger K-10 as a replacement engine for Ge-414 and AMCA. But strangely IAF did not insist upon this either,They simply asked for the closure of the project saying that 90 Kn engine does not meet their requirement.

If at all IAf-MOD combine wanted to enter into a JV for higher powered brand engine with higher dia and weight equivalent to GE-414 they could have got it by holding Mirage-2000 and rafale deal as a bait.

It would be useful for Snecma also as JV gives a bigger engine with higher thrust.
They chose to do nothing offering lame excuse

http://centreright.in/2013/03/the-f...th-snecma-for-engine-technology/#.U-3J-_mSw6Q

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In 2006, MoD decided to seek foreign collaboration from reputed foreign engine manufacturers to produce an improved Kaveri. The problem is that countries do not part with such technologies easily. But India had an ace up its sleeve: its proposed medium multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal.Back in 2008, it was reportedthat DRDO had presented MoD a technology wish list, to be obtained in the form of offsets for defence acquisitions. MoD, however, preferred to buy these technologies as part of the contracts for the import of weapons systems. Accordingly, the RfP for the MMRCA deal reportedly prescribed the technologies the winning vendor must part with. Aero engine technology was surely the military technology India needed the most. As it has been widely reported, losing the MMRCA deal would have made the survival of several of the bidders as combat aircraft manufacturers doubtful. Considering these stakes, the MMRCA bid offered India the best leverage to obtain advanced aero-engine technology from the winner.

But the government of India does not believe in using its leverage in bargaining for what it needs most. It issued a stand-alone RfP for collaboration for developing an improved Kaveri in 2006. A separate RfP for the MMRCA deal followed a year later. The US General Electric (GE) and Britain's Rolls Royce refused any form of participation. America's Pratt&Whitney is on record having expressed its willingness to aid the Kaveri project.

But later reports said it was willing to participate only as a consultant. In 2008, MoD selected Snecma over Russia's NPO Saturn as the collaborator for the Kaveri. It was reported that it would take 4 years to develop and certify a new engine, after which the technology would be transferred to GTRE. MoD entered into separate negotiations with Snecma on this deal even as it was processing the MMRCA proposals.

These negotiations dragged on for more than three years. Meanwhile, the Dassault Rafale, powered by a Snecma engine, emerged as the lowest bidder among those shortlisted for the MMRCA and MoD began contract negotiations with it. Was Snecma playing a game, waiting for the finalization of the Rafale deal?

It would seem so. It appeared that in a bizarre twist, at this stage India had allowed France to make the Rafale deal an offset for the engine technology deal.
MoD then began negotiations with Snecma for a joint venture for the development of the Kaveri. Minister of State for DefencePallamRajutold Business Standard: "(Snecma) is willing to co-develop an engine with us; they are willing to go beyond just transfer of technology.

It is a value-added offer that gives us better technology than what we would get from ToT from Eurojet(the maker of the Typhoon's engine) or GE." This was misleading. GE and Eurojet were not contenders for the collaboration with GTRE. The technology they were offering was part of a deal for the import of 99 engines for the LCA Mark II. The kind of technologies sought for the collaboration on the Kaveri engine were not sought for this deal.

Officially, no specifics of what technologies Snecma would offer have been disclosed. A senior DRDO official said two years ago that the work share between GTRE and Snecma would be 50:50; that price negotiations would be completed "within a month"; and that GTRE would gain the intellectual property rights for the new engine.

Aviation Week reported in March 2012 that an agreement on the joint venture to develop and build a 20,230-lb-thrust engine would be reached by June that year. Snecma would provide "exhaustive know-how" on the technologies and manufacturing processes GTRE lacked, the sources for the report claimed.

n the wake of the VVIP chopper scam, Defence Minister A. K. Antony has promised corrective action. He cannot act until he finds out what really happens behind the scenes in the procurement process.

The complete lack of transparency in all matters relating to defence makes it easy for unscrupulous elements to manipulate the system. Antony must order a thorough inquiry into the whole Kaveri-Snecma saga. Several questions relating to this affair need answers. Who was pushing for delinking the Kaveri collaboration from the MMRCA tender?

What specifically did Snecma offer in its response to the RfP, and at what price? Why did the negotiations drag on for so many years, and on what basis were predictions of imminent agreement fed to the media on a regular basis (see here and here)? What were the reasons for the termination of the negotiations?

This charade could not have gone on for so long unless senior levels of the GTRE, MoD, and the IAF were involved. A top-to-bottom shakeup in the MoD, DRDO, and the services would inspire some confidence that it is not going to be, once again, business as usual.
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Snecma played along with negotiation till mirage-2000 upgrade and rafale winning the bid was done, then refused TOT.

IAF objected tooth and nail the proposed GTRE-Snecma JV for Kaveri saying that it will not meet their need

and there will be no"learning process for GTRE",Since Snecma was proposing to to induct its already fully developed M-88 core into the JV,

and it was all over.

I don't know Why IAF was interested in teaching GTRE on SCB. Now the same Snecma is delivering rafale with the M-88 core(same Eco core that IAF did not want for K-10) and IAF is perfectly happy over it.

I hope Snecma teaches IAF all the nitty gritty of making SCB blades of M-88 , so that in future IAF base repair depots will have learned how to make SCB on their own and help in designing of futre engines for IAF fighter projects, which IAF feared could not be done by GTRE, which at least has a working k-9 that meets the dry thrust needs and close to 85 percent of wet thrust needs.

The proposed JV (if bundled with the Mirage-2000 deal and rafale selection would have made it impossible for Snecma to say no to TOT.)would have given us a 90 Kn engine which could have been used as replacement engine for Tejas mk1 and could have good export prospects. But as it turned out , it was not to be.

The proposed JV ,if bundled with the Mirage-2000 deal and rafale selection would have made it impossible for Snecma to say no to TOT. But we all know how the UPA joint worked.

Atmost care was taken so that indian mil aviation sector faces the prospect of orphaned child for another two decades through the manner in which the three separate deals were worked out in three separate tracks and the most important one was buried with little fan fare.

Any hard nosed negotiator would have held Snecma to the proposed TOT terms by dangling the cumulative close to 30 billion MMRCA and Mirage-2000 upgrade that will be a cash cow for Dassault for the next two decades ,

There were many fighters in IAF and IN like MIG-29, Mig-29K that would have benefited from this 90 Kn engine, but for reasons known to itself IAF wanted GTRE to learn for another decade!!!!

Strange that an important JV is scuttled in such a mysterious manner.

Now GTRE is back to square one with a new international JV for engine development tender for AMCA . Almost a decade was lost in pursuing this Snecam JV .

 

[ersakthivel]

F35 won't kill AMCA, its just being bought for one ship. Likewise, Rafale didn't do anything to either FGFA or Tejas. Only ADA has got to be blamed for Tejas's failures. But that isn't the topic of discussion

When did tejas fail in the first place. It has orders close to 200 now. It is rafale which has zero orders and looking for indian tax payer money.


DOn't put your own subjective judgements on who failed on what and , then bail out saying that is not the topic of discussion.

Then I too can post that no major airforce in the world is having rafale in it(especially with the fleet of 270 su-30 MKI). And IAF's insistence on this is just a ploy to kill Tejas mk2 prospect. And I will paraphase it with a standard term , that it is also a topic for another discussion.

Does Russian airforce has a mid segment as IAF is desperately wants to have like a three tier air force?

Why is all NATO airforces are largely not looking for the famous three tier structure advocated by retired gents of IAF?

Any air force in the world that has SU-30 MKI,

so good that russian airforce is ordering 64 of them after looking at the success of IAF SU-30 MKI ,

called as the deadlier flanker version in the world with exemplary performance in red flag exercise ,

with integrated Brahmos missiles and looking for Super Sukhoi upgrades,

is going to buy another costly fighter like Rafale which performs more or less the same job.

What is the optimum course of action for IAF?

standardize on Tejas mk2 and SU-30 MKI(both have bigger radar dia design which allows for larger more powerful ASEA radar which is important in any strike or air to air mission, not to say about the fact thatthe powerful ASEA radar can itself be used as an effective EW stand alone EW weapon) ,

and spend big on the coming FGFA and AMCA programs. BUt IAF is exactly doing the opposite.

Any rational civilian govt will see through this game. But UPA could not!!!!

If it is not for Navy's seed funding of1000 crore tejas mk2 in 2009 the entire tejas project could have been buried like HF-24 Marut. IAF simply killed the Snecma -GTRE JV and made no effort to push the MOD for a higher powered engine in place of K-10 they opposed.

And even in stratpost conferences various retired IAF officers are bundling out tons of lies like they never asked for any ASR revision and tejas falls short of original 1984 ASR!!!

DO they think people are fools to forget the entire FSED phase-2 started in 2004 was in response to IAF's request for higher weight , higher launch stress WVR missile R-73 in place of the older R-60, which led to the redesign of wing?

Instead of replacing the aging IAF 14 squadrons consisting of Mig-21s,23s, 27s and Jags speedily with Tejas mk2 by supporting the K-10 JV with snecma what they are doing is this,

How could IAF team conclude that a 90 KN engine will not be enough for IAF needs?

Eventhough GE-414 gives 96 KN it weighs considerably more and has a bigger diameter.

SO it means that the tejas mk2's weight will go up.

Also since the fuselage has to be enlarged it will add to more skin friction drag and fuselage weight.

A 90 KN engine with the same dimension of K-9 and lesser dia won't have these issues. SO the shortfall of just 8 KN is not going to matter.

Also this engine can be used by Mig-29s also. A big problem with Mig-29 is the engine. Besides that AURA and AMCA could have used this engine as a test flight engine to speed up the development(same way in which chinese are using AL-31 engines for J-20 and J-31 and french using GE-404 on Rafale till M-88 was developed).

The JV would have given india its first working modern jet engine with a engine thrust weight ratio closer to that of M-88, since core used is the same.

Another plus is since K-9 is flat rated to give optimum thrust to give good performance across varying temperature ranges specifically suited to indian atmospheric conditions , it would have been much better fit on tejas.

But IAF stepped into give unsolicited advice. Who in the MOD allowed IAF to do this? DO they know whether IAF has any technical competence to do this?

And if IAF wanted a bigger engine it could have insisted on a newer engine jv for bigger K-10 as a replacement engine for Ge-414 and AMCA. But strangely IAF did not insist upon this either,They simply asked for the closure of the project saying that 90 Kn engine does not meet their requirement.

If at all IAf-MOD combine wanted to enter into a JV for higher powered brand engine with higher dia and weight equivalent to GE-414 they could have got it by holding Mirage-2000 and rafale deal as a bait.

It would be useful for Snecma also as JV gives a bigger engine with higher thrust.

They chose to do nothing offering lame excuse

Snecma played along with negotiation till mirage-2000 upgrade and rafale winning the bid was done, then refused TOT.

IAF objected tooth and nail the proposed GTRE-Snecma JV for Kaveri saying that it will not meet their need

and there will be no"learning process for GTRE",Since Snecma was proposing to to induct its already fully developed M-88 core into the JV,

and it was all over.

I don't know Why IAF was interested in teaching GTRE on SCB. Now the same Snecma is delivering rafale with the M-88 core(same Eco core that IAF did not want for K-10) and IAF is perfectly happy over it.

I hope Snecma teaches IAF all the nitty gritty of making SCB blades of M-88 , so that in future IAF base repair depots will have learned how to make SCB on their own and help in designing of futre engines for IAF fighter projects, which IAF feared could not be done by GTRE, which at least has a working k-9 that meets the dry thrust needs and close to 85 percent of wet thrust needs.

The proposed JV (if bundled with the Mirage-2000 deal and rafale selection would have made it impossible for Snecma to say no to TOT.)would have given us a 90 Kn engine which could have been used as replacement engine for Tejas mk1 and could have good export prospects. But as it turned out , it was not to be.

The proposed JV ,if bundled with the Mirage-2000 deal and rafale selection would have made it impossible for Snecma to say no to TOT. But we all know how the UPA joint worked.

Atmost care was taken so that indian mil aviation sector faces the prospect of orphaned child for another two decades through the manner in which the three separate deals were worked out in three separate tracks and the most important one was buried with little fan fare.

Any hard nosed negotiator would have held Snecma to the proposed TOT terms by dangling the cumulative close to 30 billion MMRCA and Mirage-2000 upgrade that will be a cash cow for Dassault for the next two decades ,

There were many fighters in IAF and IN like MIG-29, Mig-29K that would have benefited from this 90 Kn engine, but for reasons known to itself IAF wanted GTRE to learn for another decade!!!!

Strange that an important JV is scuttled in such a mysterious manner.

Now GTRE is back to square one with a new international JV for engine development tender for AMCA . Almost a decade was lost in pursuing this Snecam JV .

 

[p2prada]

Thanks p2prada please also inform me about future MLU and what else is NOT covered?

I don't know what you mean. And we don't know anything about the contract.

 

[Pulkit]

Why concurrency is/was not supported for Tejas just like F35?

 

[p2prada]

Why concurrency is/was not supported for Tejas just like F35?

Concurrency is planned for LCA Mk2. But it is yet to be seen if IAF will accept it.

 

[Pulkit]

will it accept it against its nature?

Concurrency is planned for LCA Mk2. But it is yet to be seen if IAF will accept it.

 

[p2prada]

will it accept it against its nature?

Concurrency is meant for very large programs like the F-35. And works only when very few numbers are ordered, like 1 or 2% of the actual order. By the time some 150 are ordered, they plan to get IOC. That's less than 1% of the total orders.

Here ADA is just getting desperate. They probably want IAF to induct 20 or 30% before the jet gets IOC. You really think IAF will buy that many before IOC? It's bound to fail. And any IOC date for Mk2 is bound to slip and any date ADA announces is guaranteed to be a lie. If this was 1995, IAF would have agreed, but now there is a huge question mark on the future of the program.

Any sane individual will reject concurrency for such a small program. Especially when the supplier is a proven liar.

First let them fly LCA, then let them get IOC, then we will talk. First flight itself is more than 3 years away, forget talking about IOC. Any date that ADA gives, multiply that by two. That's when it will happen.

 

[Pulkit]

I have no faith in HAL wat so ever ....3 years I can wait that long .... we will see....
and yes IAF will not induct that much before IOC.... ADA DRDO need to improve keep up there promises....
IAF should be more active and must take control and responsibility....

Concurrency is meant for very large programs like the F-35. And works only when very few numbers are ordered, like 1 or 2% of the actual order. By the time some 150 are ordered, they plan to get IOC. That's less than 1% of the total orders.

Here ADA is just getting desperate. They probably want IAF to induct 20 or 30% before the jet gets IOC. You really think IAF will buy that many before IOC? It's bound to fail. And any IOC date for Mk2 is bound to slip and any date ADA announces is guaranteed to be a lie. If this was 1995, IAF would have agreed, but now there is a huge question mark on the future of the program.

Any sane individual will reject concurrency for such a small program. Especially when the supplier is a proven liar.

First let them fly LCA, then let them get IOC, then we will talk. First flight itself is more than 3 years away, forget talking about IOC. Any date that ADA gives, multiply that by two. That's when it will happen.

 

[ersakthivel]

Beg to differ with you p2prada coz K 10 was supposed to be like Brahmos JV as I have been led to believe. Secondly the IAF's objection about a mating of Eco Core to Kaveri was all hedging for Rafael. If you read the link I posted earlier Snecma was willing earlier coz they also stood to gain with a new higher thrust engine

I quote from this link : The Failed Negotiations with Snecma for Engine Technology

MoD then began negotiations with Snecma for a joint venture for the development of the Kaveri. Minister of State for DefencePallamRajutold Business Standard: "(Snecma) is willing to co-develop an engine with us; they are willing to go beyond just transfer of technology. It is a value-added offer that gives us better technology than what we would get from ToT from Eurojet(the maker of the Typhoon's engine) or GE." This was misleading. GE and Eurojet were not contenders for the collaboration with GTRE. The technology they were offering was part of a deal for the import of 99 engines for the LCA Mark II. The kind of technologies sought for the collaboration on the Kaveri engine were not sought for this deal. Officially, no specifics of what technologies Snecma would offer have been disclosed. A senior DRDO official said two years ago that the work share between GTRE and Snecma would be 50:50; that price negotiations would be completed "within a month"; and that GTRE would gain the intellectual property rights for the new engine. Aviation Week reported in March 2012 that an agreement on the joint venture to develop and build a 20,230-lb-thrust engine would be reached by June that year. Snecma would provide "exhaustive know-how" on the technologies and manufacturing processes GTRE lacked, the sources for the report claimed.


ALSO NOTE BELOW THE POSTURING OF PARTIES INVOLVED AS PER ACM RAJKUMAR

As Air Marshall Philip Rajkumar (rtd.) recounts in his book The Tejas Story, the DRDO and the IAF had a falling out in the 1980s over the choice of partners for developing the LCA's flight control system. The IAF wanted to go with Dassault, while the DRDO preferred Lockheed Martin. This disagreement had caused the IAF to wage a decades-long cold war against the DRDO and the LCA project in particular. Quite possibly,DRDO bought peace with the IAF by accepting the latter's preference for Snecma.

THE REASON WHY IAF WANTED SNECMA IS COZ THEY PLAYED ALONG WITH IAF WHO WANTED TO KILL THE KAVERI SO THEY COULD GET MMRCA & SNECMA THE MONEY OUT OF IT!!

I quote below from this link : DRDO gets nod for French tie-up for Kaveri project - The Hindu

Snecma chairman and chief executive officer Philippe Petitcolin told The Hindu: "Yes we first stated a 15-year period to hand over the design technology, but now we have indicated that the technology can be given as fast as the Indians can assimilate it."

GTRE director Mohan Rao said the capabilities of "the existing French core will be enhanced to suit the IAF's requirements."

THE IAF FIRST SAID THE K 10 WILL TAKE VERY LONG SINCE SNECMA SAID IT WILL TAKE GTRE 15 YEARS BUT THE ABOVE STATEMENT BY SNECMA CEO CONTRADICTS IAF CLAIMS.

SECOND CLAIM WAS ECO CORE CANNOT BE USED SINCE AS PER IAF IT WONT PRODUCE MORE THAN 2000 lbs THRUST AND THERE IS NO FURTHER POTENTIAL TO ECO CORE....READ MY WORDS THE ECO CORE WILL BE THE BASE FOR THE NEXT HIGHER THRUST ENGINE OF SNECMA ONLY MMRCA DEAL WILL BE FUNDING THAT DEVELOPMENT AND FRENCH WOULD BENIFIT NOT GTRE OR TEJAS!!!

Shortly after the cancellation of this JV GTRE chief was arrested in a spa on frivolous charges and unceremoniously bundled out of the job, while IAF retired brass are cooling their heels with ambassadorships abroad!!!!

The ex GTRE chief Mohan Rao had twenty years of experience in K-9 development, Considering the value of guys like him to he country, I dont know how the UPA joint allowed such an experienced man to be bundled out of a critical project in such spurious manner. he was arrested by karnataka police on some counts of impropriety , but he claimed that he was there to buy medicinal stuff for his wife.

This guy was critical in the GTRE-Snecma negotiations.

I recall the treatment meted out to Nambi narayanan of ISRO's GSLV project. And the deep seated conspiracy hatched abroad to scuttle the ISRO's Cryogenic engine project and successfully put into action with the help of some unscrupulous elements of Kerala police. Hope nothing like that lurks behind the incident.

And there is no way any one can argue to support IAF's view on K-10 JV as thrust alone is not the be all and end all of engines, operating pressure ratio, acceleration,and engine thrust to weight ratio along with SCB and Ceramic matrix tech are priceless items which needs decades of experience to master.

The 100 plus mig-29s in navy and IAF will also benefit from this engine as it has lesser weight and similar thrust level.

With the upcoming Aura project will also benefit immensely from this project.

Atleast for decade long fly by wire and airframe evaluation AMCA could have used this engine.(In the same manner rafale used the engine GE-404 (same one on tejas mk1!!!)in the decade long rafale flight test program )

And how did IAF conclude that a package of all this techs were not needed for this country and strangulated the JV with the help of pliant corrupt govt of the day?

navy is funding the k9 for marine application. his K-10 would have also found application there.

it is a mystery why the tech illiterate retiring mig-21 drivers of IAF are allowed to kill this vital engine program for the country.

many informed voices in that time also questioned the motive of higher civilian leadership and IAF in this k-10 kill.

Hope one day truth comes out from the dark alley revealing who were the guys instrumental in this monumental act of stupidity.

Ia IAF did not want that engine for tejas mk2, nothing wrong with that. No one held their hand and stopped them from going for GE-414 tejas mk2?(infact it was the navy which got this mk2 project going with the timely seed money of 1000 crores to ADA in 2009, not IAF)

After all Kavery was delinked from Tejas program long back , then why did IAF hurl the false accusation on DRDO "of trying to sabotage the project teja mk2?"

They had no right to ask for the cancellation of this JV.

Another interesting titbit on why ADA went for LM instead of Dassualt is,that dassault wanted to palm off the analogue digital fly by wire tech they developed for mirage-2000 to ADA and did not want to partner the ADA for the new age Digital fly by wire tech.

And treated ADA scientist with the monumental arrogance knowing fully well with the IAF's backing they will get the consultancy for tejas. perplexed by this uncooperative attitude from Dassault ADA approached the govt to have LM consultancy and now we have the digital fly by wire tech for tejas and all other projects in future.

Note while failing to co operate with ADA on digital fly by wire tech, Dassault has developed and put the same tech on rafale and selling it for 20 billions!!!

This incident is a slap in the face for many guys who are peddling that the 70 percent TOT for rafale would help in AMCA. there were rumours that dassault did not want the experienced HAL to have any part in the indian rafale production and wanted to partner with a indian private sectror giant that did not even manufacture a screw !!!!

Only God knows how much tech will get transferred to this private sector giant in just ten years of rafale production? Sensing the foul play GOI finally out its foot down and now dassault is singing the praise of HAL "valuing decades long parnership in Mirage-2000 support!!!!"

There are some various interesting plots and sub plots executed by shadowy people in he three combined deals of rafale, gtre-snecma and costly mirage-2000 upgrade.

But as usual the ultimate score card reads 3-0 in favor of Dassault Vs indian mil aviation sector!!!

With the superfluous buy of rafale at a staggering 20 billion plus cost for just 6 squadrons(whose job can easily be done by su-30 MKIs and super sukhois in combination with 4.5th gen tech tejas mk2 and mk1!!!),

milking the future IAF budgets dry and killing the prospect of 300 plus tejas mk2 in service,

with the prospect of taking each and every fighter in IAF fleet close to the level of gripen NG or f-16 block 52 tech level ,

with massive improvement in countries air defence capability.

are all sought to be killed off by IAF top brass.

 

[p2prada]

IAF should be more active and must take control and responsibility....

Read the stratpost link I have posted. There are Air Marshals saying they have no control over LCA. They are saying they want more control and responsibility but they aren't getting squat.

 

[Pulkit]

been through that ... it all started after 2006 after which they showed interest in being a part of HAL mainly controlling it till certain extent then there was another issue when they started we can do better things in our own maintenance yards of airforce....

Even if you go by latest info on that there was no proposal yet..

No proposal to bring HAL under Indian Air Force’ | idrw.org

there is a diference in your and my approach .....
this is what i see...


IAF says we will support totally if it is given under our control...we will not share responsibility....
And HAL doesnot want that.... but if they dont want to be controlled deliver....

So IAF and HAl have extreme points which can never match...

Now jus tell me If IAF was so serious on this matter why wasn't there even a proposal...
Now IAF is jumping Govt so for this also they cud have come in public and said we want HAL they are not doing it but they didnt....


They have a tendency if we get its ok if not then also ok.... lesser headache just import...

Read the stratpost link I have posted. There are Air Marshals saying they have no control over LCA. They are saying they want more control and responsibility but they aren't getting squat.

 

[p2prada]

been through that ... it all started after 2006 after which they showed interest in being a part of HAL mainly controlling it till certain extent then there was another issue when they started we can do better things in our own maintenance yards of airforce....

You don't know anything. IAF wanted control over LCA since its inception. IAF wanted control over HAL for decades now.

No proposal to bring HAL under Indian Air Force' | idrw.org

IAF does not want to take over HAL, they want their man running their projects. They want HAL under civilian control like before. Lockheed Martin has a man called Lt Gen Chris Bogdan.

We don't have a guy like that in our LCA program. The IAF has very little presence in the LCA? Why? It's because ADA doesn't want IAF to control the program.

The civilian bureaucracy in the PSUs is more powerful than the military lobby. MoD supports DPSUs more than the forces. If the military takes over, the civilians will have to start working for real. There will be concrete deadlines and heads will roll, the civilians want to continue their laid back life.

They want to go to the office "aaram se," take breaks "aaram se," cross deadlines "aaram se."

If the military steps in there won't be excuses for deadline extensions. It's because the scientists won't be able to lie then.

IAF says we will support totally if it is given under our control...we will not share responsibility....
And HAL doesnot want that.... but if they dont want to be controlled deliver....

For some reason Lockheed Martin and Sukhoi have no problems, but only HAL has problems.

Like I said, "aaram se." If an army man takes over, no more "aaram se."

So IAF and HAl have extreme points which can never match...

Bollocks.

Now jus tell me If IAF was so serious on this matter why wasn't there even a proposal...

It's been going on for decades.

Now IAF is jumping Govt so for this also they cud have come in public and said we want HAL they are not doing it but they didnt....

That's illegal. That's the point. IAF can't talk to the media. They can't come out into the open. It will be illegal for any IAF personnel to say this publicly. Only HAL is allowed to go public. And they lie.

They have a tendency if we get its ok if not then also ok.... lesser headache just import...

This is only the Arjun brigade's view on DFI. Those who know what happens for real know the Arjun brigade does not know anything.

You are fishing in the wrong sea. There is no tuna here. You want to find fault with the LCA program, everything squarely falls on ADA/HAL, not IAF. None of the delays you see in the program has anything to do with the IAF. Even if IAF was given control, IAF can't be blamed because the program itself is stuck in its implementation. ADA is unable to work effectively. No matter how much IAF supports the LCA program, the fault lies in ADA because they are unable to deliver anything. Facts speak for themselves. The only difference is those who have been following the program know what the facts are, those who don't know literally anything about DRDO automatically become the Arjun brigade.

 

[Pulkit]

Starting with proud to be part of Arjun Tejas Indian Brigade.....

You don't know anything. IAF wanted control over LCA since its inception. IAF wanted control over HAL for decades now.

What are you saying I remember you only telling me that IAF are just customers they want to be just customers.... When did they ask for control before 2006... any source you can share ....to counter ur own point only....

IAF does not want to take over HAL, they want their man running their projects. They want HAL under civilian control like before. Lockheed Martin has a man called Lt Gen Chris Bogdan.

What they wanted control over HAL but didn't want to take over.... what?????
HAL needs to improve they must be held accountable.....in any possible way............

We don't have a guy like that in our LCA program. The IAF has very little presence in the LCA? Why? It's because ADA doesn't want IAF to control the program.

ADA didnt want IAF total monopoly they wanted there interference where they wanted but IAF wanted total control.... monopoly.... IAF didnt want to share responsibility...
Just like you said they wanted to be just customers....

The civilian bureaucracy in the PSUs is more powerful than the military lobby. MoD supports DPSUs more than the forces. If the military takes over, the civilians will have to start working for real. There will be concrete deadlines and heads will roll, the civilians want to continue their laid back life.

Lets get the military into it then.... being a civilian i wont make a fuss about it... but is the military ready? I doubt... they have not proposed yet...

They want to go to the office "aaram se," take breaks "aaram se," cross deadlines "aaram se."

If the military steps in there won't be excuses for deadline extensions. It's because the scientists won't be able to lie then.

Aaaaraaam se attitude has to go.... aaaraaam is haraaaam,,,,,

For some reason Lockheed Martin and Sukhoi have no problems, but only HAL has problems.

Like I said, "aaram se." If an army man takes over, no more "aaram se."



Bollocks.



It's been going on for decades.

They are more matured than us you need to agree ... they are decades ahead of us .... we cannot compete with them at that... can we?
Even military involvement will not advance us to that extent even in a decade as they are growing faster but what can we do is be self sufficient....

That's illegal. That's the point. IAF can't talk to the media. They can't come out into the open. It will be illegal for any IAF personnel to say this publicly. Only HAL is allowed to go public. And they lie.

Oh!!!! then was the comment on FGFA illegal?

This is only the Arjun brigade's view on DFI. Those who know what happens for real know the Arjun brigade does not know anything.

Already said I am Proud to be part of an Indian Brigade....

You are fishing in the wrong sea. There is no tuna here. You want to find fault with the LCA program, everything squarely falls on ADA/HAL, not IAF. None of the delays you see in the program has anything to do with the IAF. Even if IAF was given control, IAF can't be blamed because the program itself is stuck in its implementation. ADA is unable to work effectively. No matter how much IAF supports the LCA program, the fault lies in ADA because they are unable to deliver anything. Facts speak for themselves. The only difference is those who have been following the program know what the facts are, those who don't know literally anything about DRDO automatically become the Arjun brigade.

Fault with Tejas Program are many with Tejas None.... ADA/HAL/IAf/MOD all party to it......
IAF changed some requirement when did they do that....? or they didnt?where they major ? ADA/DRDO/HAL screwed it further.......

 

[p2prada]

Starting with proud to be part of Arjun Tejas Indian Brigade.....

Good for you. Bad for the country.

What are you saying I remember you only telling me that IAF are just customers they want to be just customers.... When did they ask for control before 2006... any source you can share ....to counter ur own point only....

What is different about it? The USAF is also just a customer. Giving them executive powers is just their power as a customer.

IAF doesn't want to take full control of ADA. They just want executive powers over LCA.

What they wanted control over HAL but didn't want to take over.... what?????

They don't want full control. You don't get it. They just want executive control over the projects. They don't want to be CEO of the companies, they want to be project leaders. Basically they want to be middle rung managers with some executive powers. I hope that makes it clear.

Making an Air Marshal a chief of HAL is entirely different. They want executive powers over a wide range of issues, they don't want to simply take over HAL, that would be pointless.

ADA didnt want IAF total monopoly they wanted there interference where they wanted but IAF wanted total control.... monopoly.... IAF didnt want to share responsibility...
Just like you said they wanted to be just customers....

This is one of the reasons why you lot are going on my ignore list. Major comprehension issues.

Aaaaraaam se attitude has to go.... aaaraaam is haraaaam,,,,,

That is the mantra of the Indian MIC.

They are more matured than us you need to agree ... they are decades ahead of us .... we cannot compete with them at that... can we?
Even military involvement will not advance us to that extent even in a decade as they are growing faster but what can we do is be self sufficient....

So, it is okay if we lose a few wars? We can't compete after all.

Oh!!!! then was the comment on FGFA illegal?

Which comment?

Fault with Tejas Program are many with Tejas None.... ADA/HAL/IAf/MOD all party to it......
IAF changed some requirement when did they do that....? or they didnt?where they major ? ADA/DRDO/HAL screwed it further.......

Remove IAF from that equation. I have already posted the views of retired brass who said they were helpless.

 

[ersakthivel]

It is time to get a few top navy guys who spearheaded local manufacturing tech into IAF to teach the retiring Mig-21 drivers ,the importance of phased induction in tranches and the importance of supporting local programs with seed money from stage1 , and not trying to control something about which they dont know a sh!t about.

What was amusing was one of the useless retired gent from IAF commented in strast post conference that Navy was lucky with Leander class!!!

In fact it was IAF which got lucky first with HF-24 Marut.

They never stood up and pressured GOI for a better engine.
In fact the talented Raj mahindra was driven out of top job on marut for a strange reason , that was his wife was a foreign national.

But the irony is the entire team of 16 designers who designed marut were all germans starting with legendary Kurt tank who was Abdul kalam's professor!!!

If only IAF stood up then and stood behind marut effort there will be no reason for the diverse range of fighters from all over the universe giving all kinds of maintenance problems and what not.

Even today IAF will never permit an indian fighter to reach 300 plus figure in its fleet, byt it will cite dubious reason like the present rafale buy of 4.5th gen tech at 5th gen time frame at 5th gen cost.

And all the senile Mig-21 drivers will lie to the public that their spec revision was behind FSED phase -2 in 2004 and , how they would have built a 5th gen fighter if only they could have got control of ADA.

Guys who could not change a Mig-21 ejection seat which could have saved so many lives want executive powers over tejas project!!!
Even the Pakistani Airforce fitted martin baker seats in those mig-19s. these useless senile folks in IAF could not even do that.

Then what is the use of givving them executive power over tejas? To wind it down perhaps as it was attempted during Mulla-yam's time in perhaps, I dont remember IAF ever raising a word in whisper when this henious proposal was pursued at that time. It was Ratan Tata who adviced the govt not to do it.

Seeing the promise of tejas mk2 Navy the least budgetted force came rushing in with the seed money of 1000 crores in 2009 itself.

But IAF mig-21 drivers were farting over the "unsuitability of Snecam -Gtre proposed k-10 " without knowing a shit about anything. And killing the Jv in one go.

If at all executive powers were given to these guys ADA would have been shut down long ago.

If we can see the plight of HAL which needed IAF-MOD combo's permission for financial sanction of any project , we ill know what would have befallen ADA if executive control was passed on to IAF hand.

These guys couldn't see beyond their Mig-21s. Even on tejas IOC-1 day airchief at that time made a stupid remark that it was a mig-21 ++. But the same guys will salivate in front of gripen which also has the same engine and evaluate it for MMRCA.

They couldn't even have the sense to fix techs like,

RSS fly by wire,
lowest clean config RCS,
in service record ,
latest airframe design
as conditions for MMRCA contract and insted chose 30 ton weight as defining parameter!!!!

And evaluated all the fighters till their financial bids expired and cost doubled. Now they want control of ADA!!!!

Even the SU-30 MKI program was a political decision of the civillian govts headed by people like narashima rao and vajpayeeof the time.

It was not bought after a deep soul searching need by IAF after ten year evaluation of 6 fighters like it did for MMRCA.

It turned out to be hugely effective shows that there is no need to believe IAf's panting urgency for rafale over tejas mk2.

And political executive is well within its right to choose a few extra squadrons of Super sukhois and double the number of tejas mk2 (seeing through the crocodile tears of IAF for executive control of ADA) at less than half the cost of rafale with very low forex outgo.

Nothing wrong with that. That combination will also win all wars for the next two decades that can be won by rafale's capabilities.

The real IAF is the guy in the cockpit, not these retired folks who want to stall theplucking of easily available low hanging fruit of taking every fighter in IAf fleet over Mirage-2000, F-16 block52 and to the gripen Ng level with speedily replacing the 14 squadrons of Migs with tejas mk2 as propounded by defence minister Antony in parliament , instead of wasting huge resources over just 6 rafale squadrons.

Because costly6 squadron rafale buy instead of cheaper 14 squadron tejas mk2 buy ,

will condemn Jag and some more mig pilots to obsolete fighters well into next decade. Which no one seems to be interested to rectify,
and forever stall the process of IAF reaching the sanctioned 45 squadrons level with in the next decade.

 

[Pulkit]

Good for you. Bad for the country.

I really dont understand how being pro Indiginisation makes it bad for the nation..... When I fully support the fact that ADA HAL DRDO and defense farces need to take strict measures to improve defense structure of the nation.....

What is different about it? The USAF is also just a customer. Giving them executive powers is just their power as a customer.

IAF doesn't want to take full control of ADA. They just want executive powers over LCA.

but they have not made any proposal .... just by saying we wont this does not work..... LCA executive powers hmmmm back in 2006 they showed interest thats all I know they never wanted to take its responsibility..... I asked for a source from you for the same earlier,.... if you have any do share....

They don't want full control. You don't get it. They just want executive control over the projects. They don't want to be CEO of the companies, they want to be project leaders. Basically they want to be middle rung managers with some executive powers. I hope that makes it clear.

have they proposed it.... what were all the conditions laid down if any such proposal was made.... i want IAF to be part of it but they are reluctant...

Making an Air Marshal a chief of HAL is entirely different. They want executive powers over a wide range of issues, they don't want to simply take over HAL, that would be pointless.

Simply take over will give them immense power by the way.....

This is one of the reasons why you lot are going on my ignore list. Major comprehension issues.

You need not to keep mentioning that again and again .... No one is forcing any one here.... you have your views I have mine....

That is the mantra of the Indian MIC.

They need to follow it strictly....

So, it is okay if we lose a few wars? We can't compete after all.

Who said that..... When i say prefer Indian weapons i dont say do not import at all....but in the field we have an option take that....
we dont have heavy A/c get it no ones stopping you buy it....
My issue with Rafale is not the potency of the A/C , it is its utility & cost and its impact on our projects......

Which comment?

Russia can't deliver on Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft: IAF | Business Standard News

Remove IAF from that equation. I have already posted the views of retired brass who said they were helpless.

IAF cannot be left out ... they are part of a very complex system......

 

[p2prada]

I really dont understand how being pro Indiginisation makes it bad for the nation..... When I fully support the fact that ADA HAL DRDO and defense farces need to take strict measures to improve defense structure of the nation.....

Being stupid is bad for the country. Blindly supporting Arjun/LCA without knowing how it affects comprehensive national power equations isn't a good thing.

but they have not made any proposal .... just by saying we wont this does not work..... LCA executive powers hmmmm back in 2006 they showed interest thats all I know they never wanted to take its responsibility..... I asked for a source from you for the same earlier,.... if you have any do share....

How will I give you sources from claims from before the Internet?

have they proposed it.... what were all the conditions laid down if any such proposal was made.... i want IAF to be part of it but they are reluctant...

This is the latest.

IAF Wants an Air Marshal to Head HAL

"We have proposed that a senior IAF three-star officer be considered for the post," IAF Chief Air Chief Marshal N A K Browne told a press conference here.

You need not to keep mentioning that again and again .... No one is forcing any one here.... you have your views I have mine....

I know. That's why I am putting you lot in my ignore list.

we dont have heavy A/c get it no ones stopping you buy it....

We don't have any aircraft.

My issue with Rafale is not the potency of the A/C , it is its utility & cost and its impact on our projects......

You don't have to worry about any of that.

Russia can't deliver on Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft: IAF | Business Standard News

Every claim in that is wrong. It is fake news.

IAF cannot be left out ... they are part of a very complex system......

ADA and HAL want to keep IAF out.

 

[Pulkit]

Being stupid is bad for the country. Blindly supporting Arjun/LCA without knowing how it affects comprehensive national power equations isn't a good thing.

Criticizing is good but limiting it to ADA HAL DRDO is foolish.... And Criticizing Tejas is Stupid without actually thinking of it utility over using Mig21 flying coffins for another 5-10 years is a crime....

How will I give you sources from claims from before the Internet?

Stop Stating them then....

This is the latest.

IAF Wants an Air Marshal to Head HAL

I shared even more latest link saying no proposal yet...Official..... From 2006 onwards that shows there reluctance....

I know. That's why I am putting you lot in my ignore list.

Great .... in another 47 comments for others and as a punishment after 48 for me.....
Stop being stupid and rigid blocking is no solution its like running away.....oh after that you actually leaving with a option of occasional visit....

We don't have any aircraft.

IAf official site also laughs at you
Official website of Indian Air Force
See there is LCA in here too.....

You don't have to worry about any of that.

Being the Citizen of India I have all the rights to worry about it....

Every claim in that is wrong. It is fake news.

Broadsword: Russia can't deliver on Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft: IAF says
Gunning for the PAK-FA: What the IAF really wants | Russia & India Report
Russia fulfils FGFA obligations with India - Alexander Kadakin | Russia & India Report
Indian Air Force not happy with Sukhoi T-50/PAK-FA/FGFA | Defence Aviation
all are false??????

ADA and HAL want to keep IAF out.

they are hapy to keep them out but they are able to keep them out becoz IAF does not want to get into it.....

 

[Pulkit]

Being stupid is bad for the country. Blindly supporting Arjun/LCA without knowing how it affects comprehensive national power equations isn't a good thing.

Criticizing is good but limiting it to ADA HAL DRDO is foolish.... And Criticizing Tejas is Stupid without actually thinking of it utility over using Mig21 flying coffins for another 5-10 years is a crime....

How will I give you sources from claims from before the Internet?

Stop Stating them then....

This is the latest.

IAF Wants an Air Marshal to Head HAL

I shared even more latest link saying no proposal yet...Official..... From 2006 onwards that shows there reluctance....

I know. That's why I am putting you lot in my ignore list.

Great .... in another 47 comments for others and as a punishment after 48 for me.....
Stop being stupid and rigid blocking is no solution its like running away.....oh after that you actually leaving with a option of occasional visit....

We don't have any aircraft.

IAf official site also laughs at you
Official website of Indian Air Force
See there is LCA in here too.....

You don't have to worry about any of that.

Being the Citizen of India I have all the rights to worry about it....

Every claim in that is wrong. It is fake news.

Broadsword: Russia can't deliver on Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft: IAF says
Gunning for the PAK-FA: What the IAF really wants | Russia & India Report
Russia fulfils FGFA obligations with India - Alexander Kadakin | Russia & India Report
Indian Air Force not happy with Sukhoi T-50/PAK-FA/FGFA | Defence Aviation
all are false??????

ADA and HAL want to keep IAF out.

they are hapy to keep them out but they are able to keep them out becoz IAF does not want to get into it.....