ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[ersakthivel]

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=5557&start=1800

Relaxed stability (which requires FBW) improves performance of all aircraft, delta, canard, and aft tail configurations. With relaxed stability, drag is reduced, fuel efficiency improved, and maneuverability is improved.

The very simple and obvious reason for this is that for aerodynamic stability, the wing and control surfaces have to be arranged in a way that requires permanent trim forces, and temporary turning forces during maneuvering that oppose the lift the wing is generating. This is worst on a delta, better on a canard and best on a aft tail configuration.

This is the reason why all commercial civil airliners built currently use relaxed stability and FBW - it reduces fuel consumption and allows greater variance in center of gravity.

Relaxed stability gives the best improvement in the case of a delta wing, which is not very maneuverable and sheds speed on turning more than the others without FBW, but a delta with relaxed stability can be as good as an aft tail with relaxed stability.

The low aspect ratio of the delta will of course create more drag than a high aspect wing especially during turning, but the Mig 21, F15, and PAKFA are all aft tail aircraft with similar low aspect ratio wings.

The reason why the reverse cranked arrow wing was used in the LCA (ie. with the root sweep less than the rest of the wing rather than greater in the case of LERX wing root extensions) was to ensure controllability at high AOA.

One of the nasty characteristics of deltas is that at high AOA the flow flips suddenly from a LERX vortex generated at the wing root, to air flowing straight over the fuselage.

It is not so much a problem if wing stall, but of maintaining pitch control of the aircraft when this happens. This was a problem with the SAAB Draken and the SAAB Viggen had an LCA like reverse crank in its wing presumably to avoid this problem.

The Mirage 2000 has strakes just ahead and above the wing to try to prevent this by forcing the vortex at all times. The Kfir used small fixed canards in the same place to direct the airflow backwards to delay the flip in airflow.

 

[Sea Eagle]

 

[ersakthivel]

Mr das is still grapling with what is the empty and operational empty weight of tejas and gripen C,

Prof. Prodyut Das: The Ails of the LCA

See the comments section.Apparently the Ails of LCA are too much to handle for Dr. Das.

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

Defence News - India's 20-Year Late LCA Fighter Jet Faces Fresh Delays

if its true then its serious...............

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Take this with a pinch of salt ..

NEW DELHI — India's Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Mark-1, likely will miss its final operational clearance (FOC) deadline set for the end of 2014, an Indian Air Force source said.

The news is being repeated, Rather wait and listen from ADA ..

Defence News - India's 20-Year Late LCA Fighter Jet Faces Fresh Delays

if its true then its serious...............

 

[Santu]

Defence News - India's 20-Year Late LCA Fighter Jet Faces Fresh Delays

if its true then its serious...............

In this article they told that development cost for Tejas program is already reached 4 billion dollars.. Is it true?? If it is then Tejas is not as cheap as expected..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

If i remember correctly, Each Tejas MK1 coast some +20 million according to Government source, Which is dirt cheap compare to similar foreign aircraft in same catagory costing +60 million a piece ..

4 billion is a peanut if compared with other programs like Eurofighter and Gripens ..

In this article they told that development cost for Tejas program is already reached 4 billion dollars.. Is it true?? If it is then Tejas is not as cheap as expected..

 

[Santu]

sir , if the development cost number is true , By quick math.. 4 billion$ development cost gets you to 20m$ each for a aircraft (individual development coast) if we induct 200 Tejas(both MK-1 and MK-2).. Then how come tejas can come at 20m$ a piece? :shocked:

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Tejas programme began in 1985, about Rs 7,000 crore have been spent on the Tejas Mark I, which obtained Initial Operational Clearance in December, allowing regular IAF pilots to fly it. By the end of this year, when it obtains Final Operational Clearance, it would have consumed a budget of Rs 7,965 crore.

Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd, which manufactures the Tejas, has quoted Rs 162 crore per fighter as its latest price. Amortising the entire development cost on the envisioned 344 fighters (IAF: 294; Navy: 50), the Tejas would cost Rs 209 crore ($33.5 million) per fighter.

In comparison, the IAF's Mirage 2000 fighters, which were bought in the 1980s, are currently being upgraded for $45 million per aircraft. IAF pilots that test-fly the Tejas Mark I find it qualitatively superior to the Mirage 2000.

The heavier Sukhoi-30MKI costs more than Rs 400 crore ($65 million) each. And the Rafale, which is currently being negotiated with Dassault, is pegged at Rs 750-850 crore ($120-140 million) per fighter.

Source : http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/searc...00+05:30&max-results=20&start=6&by-date=false

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@ersakthivel can shed some light in ..

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

sir , if the development cost number is true , By quick math.. 4 billion$ development cost gets you to 20m$ each for a aircraft (individual development coast) if we induct 200 Tejas(both MK-1 and MK-2).. Then how come tejas can come at 20m$ a piece? :shocked:

the development cost of tejas is half of that for foreign fighter of similar category.

 

[p2prada]

sir , if the development cost number is true , By quick math.. 4 billion$ development cost gets you to 20m$ each for a aircraft (individual development coast) if we induct 200 Tejas(both MK-1 and MK-2).. Then how come tejas can come at 20m$ a piece? :shocked:

The sanctioned cost for LCA Mk1 and 2 is Rs 13500 Crores with the foreign engines. Half has been spent.

Production cost to date is 1500 Crores and procurement cost could be quite high depending on orders. I think the cost of 40 LCAs is $1.5-1.6 Billion. The airframe cost is $26 Million, along with avionics according to HAL. The engine cost is $4 Million. So, total flyaway cost is $30 Million for one LCA Mk1. LCA Mk2 should cost between $40-45 Million, ADA mentioned 250 Crores per jet.

Kaveri development is separate and costs quite a bit too.

Gripen program cost the same as LCA, at $3 Billion. The current Gripen E development is a little over $1 Billion, including engine. Gripen F may cost lesser and Sweden will share it with Brazil.

 

[syncro]

If i remember correctly, Each Tejas MK1 coast some +20 million according to Government source, Which is dirt cheap compare to similar foreign aircraft in same catagory costing +60 million a piece ..

4 billion is a peanut if compared with other programs like Eurofighter and Gripens ..

The total price for Italy for 96 Eurofighters is 21.3 billions Euro (for now)... and Italy have only about 21% share in the consortium... so the Eurofighter project is around 100 billions euro.

The real price of each EF 2000 is around 225 milions Euro (300 milions dollars).

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Thanks for sharing the details ..

The total price for Italy for 96 Eurofighters is 21.3 billions Euro (for now)... and Italy have only about 21% share in the consortium... so the Eurofighter project is around 100 billions euro.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

HAL pegs price of Tejas light fighter at Rs 162 crore

The Tejas Mark I will be one of the world's most affordable fighters in its class. Ministry of Defence (MoD) sources tell Business Standard that Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) has quoted a price of Rs 162 crore per aircraft for the first 20 Tejas fighters that have begun production in Bangalore. That translates into a dollar price of approximately $26 million per fighter.

HAL is also developing a cost-effective supply chain by establishing Long Time Business Agreements (LTBAs) of 3-5 years with its sub-vendors. Instead of giving them piecemeal orders, HAL assures its sub-vendors of production orders for up to 40-50 aircraft sets. Having provided them business confidence and driven down prices, HAL negotiates yearly requirements with them in tandem with its production rate, ensuring the in-flow of raw materials and parts to keep the Tejas line rolling. As IAF/navy orders grow, these vendors are assured of further business provided their performance and prices remain satisfactory.

Long lead components, which require time to build and sometimes have a high rejection rate, have been identified and addressed. The Tejas line will have a high quality machining shop with state-of-the-art five-axis CNC machines. For critical parts like the Tejas' carbon composite wing skin, these machines will replace the manual drilling of 8000 holes, using instead a computerised drilling programme that will reduce cycle time, errors and production cost.

"With measures like these, we will improve the Tejas' build quality and eliminate rework, rejection and delays. Bringing down the 'Standard Man Hour' for series production, when compared to building prototypes, will automatically reduce the production cost of the Tejas," says RK Tyagi, Chairman of HAL.

Source : Broadsword: LCA

 

[Santu]

The total price for Italy for 96 Eurofighters is 21.3 billions Euro (for now)... and Italy have only about 21% share in the consortium... so the Eurofighter project is around 100 billions euro.

The real price of each EF 2000 is around 225 milions Euro (300 milions dollars).

But Wikipedia says its 80milliom euro as of 2009.. and gripen costs around $48M .. E225 per unit is bit too much.. even richest country cann't afford it.. More than 8 times costlier than Mig.. Tejas might cost us $30+ - $35+ by the time induction completes as we cant overlook cost overruns..

 

[syncro]

espresso.repubblica.it/attualita/2014/02/21/news/la-germania-taglia-gli-eurofighter-proposti-come-alternativa-agli-f35-1.154371 - Translator

digilander.libero.it/en_mezzi_militari/html/ef2000.html - Translator

The italian military budget is strange

The 2° link above ia a bit outdated (2009 as your 2009 wiki page), but give some annual table of expenditure (in 2009 the total cost planned for 2015 was extimated in 18.1 billions euro.. in 2013 the cost was updated at 21.1 billions euro for 2017... in 2014 around 21.3 billions euro)

 

[nik22]

The total price for Italy for 96 Eurofighters is 21.3 billions Euro (for now)... and Italy have only about 21% share in the consortium... so the Eurofighter project is around 100 billions euro.

The real price of each EF 2000 is around 225 milions Euro (300 milions dollars).

Damn expensive. I think F35 would be less than 200 Million $ if and when it get ready (Price quoted by you are in Euro)

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

But Wikipedia says its 80milliom euro as of 2009.. and gripen costs around $48M .. E225 per unit is bit too much.. even richest country cann't afford it.. More than 8 times costlier than Mig.. Tejas might cost us $30+ - $35+ by the time induction completes as we cant overlook cost overruns..

tejas costs 162 crore ie 27 million dollar............ and if order are incresed numbers will get down

HAL pegs price of Tejas fighter at Rs 162 crore | Business Standard News
.
so dont troll again

 

[Santu]

tejas costs 162 crore ie 27 million dollar............ and if order are incresed numbers will get down

HAL pegs price of Tejas fighter at Rs 162 crore | Business Standard News
.
so dont troll again

Number I quoted is around same.. $30M-$35M .. Can you predict the how much it will cost in future?? Did HAL gave orders for 100+ GE F414 engines?? Will price of them wil be same 4million each when we give order?? Nothing can be predicted.. Assumed budget for Tejas when they started program is way less.. now how much it is? Can you guarantee that IAF will n't change MK-2 spec again ?? I didnt tell tejas will cost $100M and all so you can say trolling.. Think in business perspective.. You and me are patriots.. But not GE and other companies which are supplying parts for Tejas.. It's all business in the end..
And on top of that we are not developing engine for the program.. it was separated out long back.. If you include that how much will each Tejas cost when they fit it with kaveri engine?? You believe in HAL and I believe in IAF.. that's only the difference.. you trust what ever HAL and DRDO says.. I trust whatever IAF says.. Press quotes will be like that only.. with 5-6 yrs rafale price got doubled..According to you , It should be stable as there is no change in number of orders from French air force.. But why did it increase??? Take example of Tata Nano.. They said they will give it for 1L ... In the end every one bought it for 1.3 L to 1.4 L... Why ?? it's business strategy.. Do you have any idea what is inflation means?? Many things will become costly with time especially metals...

 

[p2prada]

tejas costs 162 crore ie 27 million dollar............ and if order are incresed numbers will get down

HAL pegs price of Tejas fighter at Rs 162 crore | Business Standard News
.
so dont troll again

Engine costs are separate. ADA paid directly for the engines.