ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

Which role suits LCA 'Tejas' more than others from following options?

  • Interceptor-Defend Skies from Intruders.

    Votes: 342 51.3%
  • Airsuperiority-Complete control of the skies.

    Votes: 17 2.5%
  • Strike-Attack deep into enemy zone.

    Votes: 24 3.6%
  • Multirole-Perform multiple roles.

    Votes: 284 42.6%

  • Total voters
    667
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ersakthivel

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Check my post too ,Vishwashish Jena
lets see what the great prof replies,

Also prof is always harping on tejas empty weight increase from 5.5 tons(original ASR specs by MSD Woolen) to 6.5 tons as the reason for ails of tejas,

but he is quiet about increase in max take off weight from 12.5 ton(initial ASR specs of MSD Woolen) to 13.5 ton in IOC-2,

So if everything about tejas was wrong according to him how did the max take off weight increase?
 

Hari Sud

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Read Prodyutdas paper.

He is one of the many who throw a wrench in the machine.

Ignore him.
 

Twinblade

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So HAL-ADA lied about the deadlines for the thousandth time again. Either that or the incompetence runs so deep that the higher ups have no idea about the situation on ground. SP-1 was supposed to begin ground runs in June and fly in August, which was earlier supposed to be rolled out by 31st March 2014 which was August 2012 before. So many slippages at the last stage of the program when the last design and technology challenges were wound up half a decade back is shameful to put it mildly.



2610th flight on 17 June
TD1 : 233, PV1: 242, PV3: 382, LSP1: 74, LSP3: 200, LSP5: 270, TD2 : 305, PV2: 222, PV5: 47, LSP2: 294, LSP4: 120, LSP7: 110, NP1: 25, LSP8 : 86
2623th flight on 28 June
TD1 : 233, PV1: 242, PV3: 382, LSP1: 74, LSP3: 202, LSP5: 270, TD2 : 305, PV2: 222, PV5: 49, LSP2: 294, LSP4: 125, LSP7: 112, NP1: 25, LSP8 : 88


2627th flight on 02 July
TD1 : 233, PV1: 242, PV3: 382, LSP1: 74, LSP3: 205, LSP5: 270, TD2 : 305, PV2: 222, PV5: 49, LSP2: 294, LSP4: 126, LSP7: 112, NP1: 25, LSP8 : 88
 

brahmastra11

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Whatever, Better than this..

F-35 Joint Strike Fighters grounded after engine fire
http://rt.com/usa/170376-entire-f35-fleet-grounded/

All 2627 flights are incident free.... No other Aviation industry in the world accomplished this feat.

Few months dealys in deadline are very much fine with us..


So HAL-ADA lied about the deadlines for the thousandth time again. Either that or the incompetence runs so deep that the higher ups have no idea about the situation on ground. SP-1 was supposed to begin ground runs in June and fly in August, which was earlier supposed to be rolled out by 31st March 2014 which was August 2012 before. So many slippages at the last stage of the program when the last design and technology challenges were wound up half a decade back is shameful to put it mildly.





2623th flight on 28 June
TD1 : 233, PV1: 242, PV3: 382, LSP1: 74, LSP3: 202, LSP5: 270, TD2 : 305, PV2: 222, PV5: 49, LSP2: 294, LSP4: 125, LSP7: 112, NP1: 25, LSP8 : 88


2627th flight on 02 July
TD1 : 233, PV1: 242, PV3: 382, LSP1: 74, LSP3: 205, LSP5: 270, TD2 : 305, PV2: 222, PV5: 49, LSP2: 294, LSP4: 126, LSP7: 112, NP1: 25, LSP8 : 88
 

Kunal Biswas

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One cannot blame just one node, In this mess IAF biggest of all the Former Government are responsible ..

Tejas and young pilots never given much needed attention, Pilots getting jelly in those coffins have become everyday news ..

Is it better than dozens of pilots getting processed into human jell in ancient MiG-21 ? I guess not.
 

ersakthivel

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So HAL-ADA lied about the deadlines for the thousandth time again. Either that or the incompetence runs so deep that the higher ups have no idea about the situation on ground. SP-1 was supposed to begin ground runs in June and fly in August, which was earlier supposed to be rolled out by 31st March 2014 which was August 2012 before. So many slippages at the last stage of the program when the last design and technology challenges were wound up half a decade back is shameful to put it mildly.


2623th flight on 28 June
TD1 : 233, PV1: 242, PV3: 382, LSP1: 74, LSP3: 202, LSP5: 270, TD2 : 305, PV2: 222, PV5: 49, LSP2: 294, LSP4: 125, LSP7: 112, NP1: 25, LSP8 : 88


2627th flight on 02 July
TD1 : 233, PV1: 242, PV3: 382, LSP1: 74, LSP3: 205, LSP5: 270, TD2 : 305, PV2: 222, PV5: 49, LSP2: 294, LSP4: 126, LSP7: 112, NP1: 25, LSP8 : 88
You should know that the production agency for tejas is now HAL. Not ADA.

HAL was begging MOD for a higher and earlier 1000 cr fund allocation (from 2012 onwards)for the new high tech tejas production line, from saint Antony's time.

MOD in a master stroke of fund allocation asked HAL to put up 50 percent , IAF 25 percent and Navy 25 percent for the

Such is MOD's priority for tejas!!!!,They can not allocate 1000 cr straightaway.


We dont know which member contributed what amount in which time period.


So where did ADA lie?


Also in its initial projection ADA asked 4000 cr with a separate production line with an faster LSP route for tejas development.

After protracted wrangling GOI allocated 2000 cr as per the advice of IAF (which could not spare a penny for Tejas till Navy put up 1000cr funding for the development of naval mk-2 version!!!!)in a snail paced 2 TDs first PVs later and LSPs even later developmental model in 1993.

Nuclear test sanctions delayed the fly by wire part by three years and new heavier missile demands from IAF led to FSED-phase -2 in 2004 which led to further design modification and delays.

So before accusing ADA of lying through the teeth, you should know that projects announced with great fanfare for public consumption are stalled for want of proper funding and user backing .
 
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tejas was never designed to replace mig21. It was designed to replace mirage.
.
http://hindu.com/thehindu/thscrip/print.pl?file=2008030958701000.htm&date=2008/03/09/&prd=th&
.
so tejas cannot be blamed cause MMRCA is the deal to replace mig 21. Again if you have to replace mig21 then why did iaf changed their requirements time to time? They should have accepted old version and asked for a tejas mk2 at that time.
.
Defence News - Export potential for Tejas : DRDO @Twinblade
.
the link I have shared says something different - Mr. Selvamurthy said out of 40 Tejas
aircraft ordered by the Indian Air Force
(IAF), the Hindustan Aeronautical
Limited (HAL) had already completed
production of 10. It had already been
figured in the inventory of IAF.
Another 20 aircraft would be
completed after the Final Operating
Clearance is given
 
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ersakthivel

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Is it better than dozens of pilots getting processed into human jell in ancient MiG-21 ? I guess not.
Prof. Prodyut Das

If you read Another article by same prodyut das in his own blog where he is listing out the findings for Mig-21 crashes,

He lists the following as the prime reason for Mig-21 crashes,

1. Because indian hot climate saps twelve percent lift and 10 percent engine thrust , Mig-21 is very dangerous to operate for inexperienced pilots particularly in landing and take off where approach speeds are higher,

2.The alpha sensitivity of Mig-21 due to low aspect ratio of 2.2(note with an even lower aspect ratio of 1.9 ,tejas had 2700 incident free landings and take offs, showing ADA's care for test pilots,),

3.The weight increase in mig-21 which made approach speeds higher and higher for landing condition,

4.The CK ejection seat not good enough in low level emergencies-"semi -encapsulation feature of CK seat delayed ejection in that it took too long to get rid of the canopy "

And he goes on to say that the attrition rate of Mig-21s in IAF is quite comparable to other airforces,
stating that,

1.The German Luftwaffe flew about 950 F 104s from about 1960 to 1987 and lost about 292 of them during the same period.

2.The Canadians lost half of their fleet of 200 CF 104s during a similar period of service. Training was admittedly a problem with the German Luftwaffe which was barely ten years old at the time of the induction of the F104 but the same could hardly be true about the Canadians.

3.The British RAF lost over a hundred of their 297 Lightnings in about 25 years of service- a number of them to engine fires which was probably due to a flaw in the detail design. Our MiG losses have been at a much lower rate.



And finally he says this,

The importance of having the best ejection seat possible cannot be overstated.

It is noteworthy that the Pakistan Air Force retrofitted their MiG 19s with the Martin Baker MK 10.

Such a seat in the MiG 21would have saved many of the 70 pilots killed. Wg.Cdr Gautam, MVC and Bar who died "dead sticking" a MiG 21 FL during take off at Lohegaon is one name, of the many, who come to mind.
.

And the lack of AJTs is another issue which could have reduced the rate further.So read up before fixing ADA as the only responsible for those pilots who lost their life on Mig-21s.

Only flight worthy Mig-21s are allowed to fly in IAF.


And contrary to your claims he says after 2002 Mig-21 crashes decreased," The sudden decline in the crash rate of the MiG 21 after 2002 cannot be explained with the current level of published information.".

This international acceptable attrition rate work out to about 7 aircraft per anum in the 80s and thereafter.

The fact that in the tropics the aircraft is flying in a non ISA atmosphere means that the engine thrust and the lift available is lower than available to a European pilot.

In addition the flying environment- the ratio of open to densely populated areas, the number and size of birds at low level can alter the accident rate in spite of identical standards of training and maintenance.

Is the general accident level too high?

According to the MOD the IAF lost a total of 315 MiG 21 were lost from all causes in 40 years. Taking out the combat losses this is less than 30% of the MiG fleet in 40 years.

Compared to the Canadian losses of 50% and the German Losses of 292 out of 915 F104s in a much shorter period of operation and the fact the percentage of Lightning losses for the RAF were just as high would indicate that losses were not unusual.
crash rate yearwise,

92-93 11
93-94 10
94-95 11
95-96 9
96-97 10
97-98 7
98-99 10
99-00 13
00-01 12
01-02 8
02-03 11
03-04 5
04-05 2
SO dont lay everything on ADA's door. Even the mother in law of tejas mr. Das does not say so.

In fact the truth is exact opposite of what you want forum members here to believe!!!!

Because ADA got funding for two Tejas TDs only in 1993 . And the first TD flew in 2001. According to Mr. Das after 2001-2002 , the accident rates of mig-21s drastically decreased.



SO your entire accusation is not supported by facts!!!!

From now on please dont make statements without knowing the facts ,Just to beat tejas down.

P.S-This article of Mig-21 crashes has extensive reference materials indicating source of his statements.

But unfortunately in his article on The Ails of tejas , No such reference was there.

Has mr. das forgotten to give us reference for his claims, like

1. Weight of tejas is wrong,
2. Aspect ratio of tejas is wrong,
3. Agility of tejas is useless,
4.Aerodynamics of tejas is wrong,
5.Length of tejas is wrong,
6.Air intake of tejas is wrong.

7. In fact everything on tejas is wrong.

If only Mr. Das gave reference to all his claims ADA could have used to that to correct these mistakes in tejas mk-2.

Or may be He should be appointed the next project director of tejas perhaps!!!!
 
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ersakthivel

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ersakthivel - Philip Rajkumar is a personal friend of mine and I have known him since I was a boy and he had just joined IAF. I do believe him - but I am not trying to set up a comparison. Das is out of the loop and has strong opinions. He has an ability (like Philip Rajkumar) to bring up technical points that 99% of internet forum jingos are unaware of and that is where his utililty lies - as a person who expands the mindscape of the average educated aerospace illiterate fanboy. Some people such as yourself with deeper knowledge are bound to have differences. One need not believe him or vote for him - but one can understand the complexity of issues involved and how some decisions taken along the road cannot be reversed and how things might have been if other design choices had been made.

Check my post too ,Vishwashish Jena
Another comic error in das's epic piece the Ails of tejas,

Aerodynamics
I have elsewhere mentioned that the LCA is aerodynamically blunt, its comparable equivalents being almost a meter longer.
The RAFALE has a length of 15meters and a wingspan of 11 meters,

the typhoon has a length of 15.96 meter and a wing span of 10.95 meters.

SO rafale has worse aspect ratio compared to TYPHOON!!!

SO RAFALE is aerodynamically blunt compared to typhoon and has a major design flaw according to mother in law research of Mr. Das!!!!

SO how come IAF selected RAFALE after evaluating all the MMRCA contenders on 695 parameters?
 
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brahmastra11

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Was it better to isolate ADA/HAL by IAF to run their MMRCA deal lobby till 2006 ?

Innocent brave pilots paid the price bcoz of Arms lobby and useless politicos, not bcoz of ADA/HAL..

This is already been discussed to deapth in this thread.. Lets not go their again wasting everybody time.


Is it better than dozens of pilots getting processed into human jell in ancient MiG-21 ? I guess not.
 

ersakthivel

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Was it better to isolate ADA/HAL by IAF to run their MMRCA deal lobby till 2006 ?

Innocent brave pilots paid the price bcoz of Arms lobby and useless politicos, not bcoz of ADA/HAL..

This is already been discussed to deapth in this thread.. Lets not go their again wasting everybody time.


Is it better than dozens of pilots getting processed into human jell in ancient MiG-21 ? I guess not.
Following is Mr. Philip Rajkumar's quote,
====================================================================================================
Philip Rajkumar on May 1, 2012 at 6:01 am said:

philip rajkumar

I worked in the LCA project for nine years from 17 Sep 1994 to 31 Aug 2003 (actually 17 days short of nine years!). I was deputed to ADA by the IAF to oversee the flight test programme of the Technology Demonstration phase of the project. Having been on both sides of the fence i have a few points to make.

1. Development of a capable aeronautical industry is a small step by small step evolutionary process.Infrastructure and skill sets of the work force have to be built up over decades with considerable effort. All this requires investment of money and managerial resources.

Mainly due to financial constraints and lack of vision in the IAF, HAL and the GOI we allowed capabilities built up during the Marut and Kiran programmes to atrophy.

While the world leapt ahead with several technological innovations like fly by wire,digital avionics and use of composites for structures HAL did not run a single research programme because it was not the practice to do research unless it was linked to a specicific project.


2.The LCA project is where it is today thanks to one man-Dr VS Arunachalam who as the SA to RM in 1985 had the gumption and clout to go to the GOI and convince them that India could build a fourth generation fighter. It was a leap of faith no doubt.

This is the reason why so many ex-HAL guys like Prodyut Das and retired IAF types hate ADA for. The project was out of their hands due to this man. They still have not forgiven him or ADA or tejas for this, even after three decades.

It is this grouse which leads them to dump tons of dirt on tejas.

They wanted the project to be in their hands, but the past association of IAF-HAL could not succeed in Marut program. So GOI decided to create ADA on the advice of SA and DRDO.

Is this decision correct or not will be known in Tejas mk-1 and mk-2 FOC.

Till then people like Prodyut das can keep on dumping on Tejas,
3. HAL feels wronged about being asked to play second fiddle to ADA. This pique continues to hurt the project even today.

4. Without help from Dassault of France,BAE Systems UK, Lockheed Martin of the USA and Alenia of Italy we would not have succeeded in developing the fly by wire flight control system,glass cockpit,and composite structures for the two TD aircraft.

5. So far the flight safety record of the programme has been good. I pray every day that it remains that way. The loss of an aircraft early in the programme would have surely lead to its closure.

6.All pilots who have flown the aircraft say its handling qualities are very good. It means it is easy to fly and perform the mission.

7.It needs to be put into IAF sevice as soon as possible to gain more experience to iron out bugs which are sure to show up during operational use.

8.Programme management could have been better. IAF is to blame for washing its hands off the project for 20 years from 1986-2006. A management team was put in place at ADA in 2007.

Till 2006 IAF didnot allocate any funds . and was not involved in the program in any meaningful manner.
Only after 2006 they started raising close to 250 requests for action , barring 12 (reserved for mk-2) all were complied with by ADA.

If IAF was involved from earlier days with funds and design inputs , tejas would have been in service following tranche-1, tranche-2 model of typhoon or F-1,2,3 model of rafale.
9.Dr Kota Harinarayana and all those who have worked and continue to work have done so with great sincerity and dedication.

10.Indian aeronautics has benefitted immensely from the programme. It is a topic for separate research.

11. It was a rare privilege for me to have been given an opportunity to contribute to the programme by setting up the National Flight Test Centre and putting place a methodology of work which has ensured safety so far.

12. According to me the project can be called a complete success only when the aircraft sees squadron service for a couple of decades. We will have to wait but it is progressing on the right lines and we as a nation have nothing to be ashamed of.
============================================================================================================
 
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Twinblade

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Was it better to isolate ADA/HAL by IAF to run their MMRCA deal lobby till 2006 ?

Innocent brave pilots paid the price bcoz of Arms lobby and useless politicos, not bcoz of ADA/HAL..

This is already been discussed to deapth in this thread.. Lets not go their again wasting everybody time.
Again obfuscating the issue at hand. How is the IAF responsible for delays post IOC1 when the deadlines and benchmarks were set by ADA and HAL themselves ? Those benchmarks have been set for a very very long time. It's almost 8 years since 2006 and three and half years since IOC1. No sanctions any more, no technology denials any more, no changing requirements any more and yet self declared deadlines are not met. Where is the LSP-6 for AoA testing ? It takes 8-9 months for AoA tests alone (bye bye FOC till the end of 2014). A chaiwallah says that they are possibly going to miss the FOC deadline, again.
 

brahmastra11

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ersakthivel already answered your post.. check above..

Again obfuscating the issue at hand. How is the IAF responsible for delays post IOC1 when the deadlines and benchmarks were set by ADA and HAL themselves ? Those benchmarks have been set for a very very long time. It's almost 8 years since 2006 and three and half years since IOC1. No sanctions any more, no technology denials any more, no changing requirements any more and yet self declared deadlines are not met. Where is the LSP-6 for AoA testing ? It takes 8-9 months for AoA tests alone (bye bye FOC till the end of 2014). A chaiwallah says that they are possibly going to miss the FOC deadline, again.
 

brahmastra11

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Well, please be fine in your world.. Ignore me too if you wish so..

I think ppl in this forum have other things to do in this world instead of convincing ppl who always agree to disagree and reluctant to read others post..

Apologize for replying your post..

bye bye

He is on my ignore list, make some effort at your end.
 

Archer

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Again obfuscating the issue at hand. How is the IAF responsible for delays post IOC1 when the deadlines and benchmarks were set by ADA and HAL themselves ? Those benchmarks have been set for a very very long time. It's almost 8 years since 2006 and three and half years since IOC1. No sanctions any more, no technology denials any more, no changing requirements any more and yet self declared deadlines are not met. Where is the LSP-6 for AoA testing ? It takes 8-9 months for AoA tests alone (bye bye FOC till the end of 2014). A chaiwallah says that they are possibly going to miss the FOC deadline, again.
Depends on what those benchmarks are. The IAF asked for a complete revision of avionics post the TDs even when those same items continued with batches of the Sukhois. There are hundreds some sources say 1000plus easy engineering change requests raised over the past four five years after IAF started taking the LCA seriously. Work which should have been done over past 14 odd years has been compressed into the past five since the customer woke up late and won't accept the aircraft until his every requirement is met. Add to this a pathetic GOI which couldn't tell good from bad and did not even direct extra resources to the ADA to get the job done. Yes money on paper is released but then look at the actual DRDO budget which does a fair bit of the work even though notionally the LCA is a separate program. Point is we are paying for the mistakes of the past and will continue to do so. We couldn't close a Kaveri Safran deal nor could we accelerate the original program. Stuff like this is common. The IAF is busy calling for the Rafale (in an era of F35s, J20s) and it's retired folk simultaneously harp on the Rafale being affordable while castigating money spent on LCA as a national waste. It speaks volumes about the import obsession that plagues all aspects of our services. An IAF man at IDSA even referred to the import mania as being in a candy shop and buying as if there was no tomorrow, strategy be damned.

Now it's nobodies case that ADA and especially HAL need better management and stern adherence to project timelines. But it's also true the IAF treats the LCA somewhat as the poor cousin costing it its glory at a fancy event where rich folks read Imports are present. NAK Brownes positive report at IOC2 was a remarkable rarity in a clique of condescending "why do we need this" reports.

As regards AoA we are at 22 as I recall heading to a max of 24. It's not a deal staller or shouldn't be in an era where these angles of attack are overtaken by HMS plus HOBS combos.

Now I would fully support getting a sense of urgency cracking under HAL/ADA et al to get the LCA done. But somehow seeing a perfectly capable mk1 capped at 40 while we fly 10x obsolete MiGs with bravado just seems indicative of the IAFs misplaced priorities to me. The Rafale costs alone scream highway robbery.
 

lcafanboy

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inda had mig 29 production line and all the relevant designs. india should have used the design of mig 29 and instead of rd33 engine should have used american ge f 414 engine the same as on lca mk2 and israelly aesa 2052 radar. this plane should have been stealth optimized with cantered tail and with gold tinted buble glass canopy and advanced composites and voila we could have our own potent medium fighter ready in no time.
 
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