ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[enlightened1]

A bit confusing even thought article doesn't speak directly about dumping EJ200 or F-414.

I have a firm belif that new Kaveri will not be a reality anytime before 2016-17. And if they are trageting MK-2 then i will say Tejas program is in real mess! So in my openion. It would be much better if MOD brings some clarity. Might be by saying that new Kaveri will only go into last batch(MK-3) of Tejas.

Broadsword said...

REGARDING DELAY ON THE LCA MK 2:

Perhaps you all should read the article more carefully. The EJ200/F-414 procurement option is being retained for now, even as the Kaveri-Snecma development programme proceeds on a parallel track.
Ajai Shukla's Broadsword

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Quickgun Murugan]

Bids received for indigenous fighter aircraft’s engines

New Delhi, Dec 14 (IANS) India has received bids for developing a more powerful engine for the homemade Light Combat Aircraft Tejas, as the development of the indigenous Kaveri engine is yet to be completed, Defence Minister A.K. Antony told the Lok Sabha Monday.
Antony said in a written reply that the proposal on developing the engine under a joint venture is under consideration with the government.

“Request for proposal (RFP) for procuring 99 engines have been sent to two short-listed engine manufacturers, namely GE F414 from General Electric Aviation, USA and EJ200 from Eurojet Germany,” Antony said.

“The engine houses have responded to the RFP. Both commercial and technical responses have been received for procurement of 99 engines along with transfer of technology,” Antony added.

Tejas, meant to replace the ageing MiG-21 fleet of the Indian Air Force (IAF), is currently under development in Bangalore for the last couple of decades.

The Aeronautical Development Agency of the DRDO is developing the supersonic combat aircraft along with the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL).

The IAF has placed an order for 20 Tejas lightweight multi-role planes, India’s second indigenous fighter aircraft, and is inclined to increase the number to 40.

Earlier, it was planned that a turbofan engine, the GTX-35VS Kaveri, being developed by the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), would be fitted to the production aircraft. But delays in development led to the purchase of General Electric engines, which even faced rough weather due to the sanctions imposed post-1998 nuclear tests.

The IAF had expressed reservations about the GE engines as it increased the plane’s weight from 8,000 kg to 10,000 kg. This delayed the production of the aircraft and it will be ready for delivery only by 2011.

Read more: Bids received for indigenous fighter aircraft’s engines

 

[rakesh]

which engine is better for teja?

 

[nitesh]

here is good news guys:

http://203.197.197.71/presentation/...od-to-rs-8,000cr-for-production-of-tejas.aspx

Dec. 15: In a major leg-up for one of the country’s most crucial indigenous defence initiatives, the Centre has sanctioned a massive Rs 8,000 crores to begin production of the fighter jet Tejas for the IAF and Indian Navy.

The lion’s share of this outlay, Rs 5,000 crores, will be for the manufacture of the jets for the IAF, while the rest will be for the development of a variant for the Navy, P.S. Subramanyam, director of the Aeronautical Development Agency which coordinates the Light Combat Aircraft programme, told this newspaper. "This is very good encouragement for a homegrown programme, but the challenge ahead is that we must deliver the jets on time. The first of these fighters will join the IAF’s fleet early 2011. The Air Force has ordered one squadron (20 fighters), and is in the process of ordering another squadron," he said.

Official sources said the IAF has committed to the purchase of 140 more jets, for seven squadrons, with more powerful engines. Next year, the LCA programme will cross another milestone with the maiden flight of the naval version.

This variant will be designed to operate from aircraft carriers INS Vikramaditya and the Air Defence Ship.

 

[Sridhar]

One more source

Nod to Rs 8,000cr for production of Tejas
In a major leg-up for one of the country's most crucial indigenous defence initiatives, the Centre has sanctioned a massive Rs 8,000 crores to begin production of the fighter jet Tejas for the IAF and Indian Navy. The lion's share of this outlay, Rs 5,000 crores, will be for the manufacture of the jets for the IAF, while the rest will be for the development of a variant for the Navy, P.S. Subramanyam, director of the Aeronautical Development Agency which coordinates the Light Combat Aircraft programme, told this newspaper. "This is very good encouragement for a homegrown programme, but the challenge ahead is that we must deliver the jets on time. The first of these fighters will join the IAF's fleet early 2011. The Air Force has ordered one squadron (20 fighters), and is in the process of ordering another squadron," he said.
Official sources said the IAF has committed to the purchase of 140 more jets, for seven squadrons, with more powerful engines.
Next year, the LCA programme will cross another milestone with the maiden flight of the naval version.

Nod to Rs 8,000cr for production of Tejas

 

[mattster]

Does this mean that HAL is going to have to build brand new plants with new production lines, or are they going to expand existing facilities.

Do any DFI guys have any info on this ???

 

[enlightened1]

Does this mean that HAL is going to have to build brand new plants with new production lines, or are they going to expand existing facilities.

Do any DFI guys have any info on this ???

It is very unlikely that they'll build new lines... when the Mk.2 flies maybe. Current capacity is 8-12 per annum.

 

[mattster]

I dont see how HAL can get by with a capacity of 8 - 12 LCA aircraft per year. That means it will take 10 years and the IAF is running low already.

 

[Sridhar]

I dont see how HAL can get by with a capacity of 8 - 12 LCA aircraft per year. That means it will take 10 years and the IAF is running low already.

Despite a pending order from the Indian Air Force (IAF) for 20 light combat aircraft (LCA), India can manufacture only eight such aircraft annually, a senior Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) official has said.N. Shyama Rao, project director at the ADA, said Tuesday that while only eight LCA could be manufactured annually, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), a public sector undertaking unit involved in the manufacture of the LCA, would undertake a massive recruitment drive in order to expand the scope of production of the fighter planes.
‘Currently we can manufacture 8 aircraft per annum, which is extendable up to 12,’ Rao said at a press conference at the INS Hansa, a naval base in Goa 30 km from here.
He also said that HAL in the near future could recruit nearly 500 officers to meet the challenge.

‘India can manufacture only 8 Light Combat Aircraft a year’ IDRW.ORG

 

[nitesh]

This is perfect guys for now the capacity can be expanded once users commit the numbers one more assembly line can take production to 20 per year in short time

 

[s_bman]

i hope his has not been posted before

HAL could be facing a capacity crunch in near future, delays with Tejas

http://www.8ak.in/8ak_india_defence_news/2009/12/hal-could-be-facing-a-capacity-crunc

14 Dec 2009 8ak: IAF’s wait for indigenously manufactured Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) – Tejas may get even longer. N. Shyama Rao, the project director of Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), which is partnering Hindustan Aeronautical Limited (HAL) in the development of LCA said "Currently we can manufacture 8 aircraft per annum, which is extendable up to 12” at a press conference at INS Hansa, a naval base in Goa. Adding further, Rao said that the HAL may hire up to 500 people to meet the challenge to expand the scope of production of the fighter planes.

The IAF has already ordered 20 LCA to be delivered by 2013 and may order 20 more to meet the security demands of the nation, which was also reported by 8ak earlier. Some analysts feel that HAL may be taking on too many projects without adequate planning to build the infrastructure it requires to build all of them. Given its production lines, currently and in the near future, can it really deliver the 126 MMRCA planes, the Fifth Generation Fighter Project, recently announced Medium Transport Aircraft with Russia, more fighters for the Navy including imported and naval version of Tejas, Tejas Mark II, light combat helicopter, attack helicopters, advanced light helicopters etc. HAL is already way behind on the BAE Hawkjet trainers and it took them a reported 15 years to weaponise ALH Dhruv. Also, with the government's preference for PSUs, HAL figures on almost every vendor's offset program and has a virtual stranglehold on the Indian aerospace dream. So unless it acts now, we can expect significant delays across the board. And the actions are not minor, they may require it to change its mindset and organisation to move from being a manufacturer to being a systems integrator. If it does this, then it will have to do the unthinkable and build up private sector companies to be major suppliers. Besides the cultural challenges it will face, other problems will crop up including licensing and approvals for its partners, investments, legal agreements including performance monitoring clauses, training, land acquisition (UAV required 4,000+ acres of land) etc.

Back to the Tejas - its induction is vital to the IAF as its squadron strength has come down to 32.5 from the sanctioned 39.5. The top brass of the IAF has indicated that the squadron will come down to 29 by 2015 due to phasing out of six squadrons of Mig-21s and two of Mig-27s. However, the IAF requires 45 squadrons to counter the growing Chinese threat perception.

The Sulur-based 45 squadron near Coimbatore will be the first to operate the Tejas after its Mig-21M fleet is retired. The second squadron is yet to be decided. The indigenous LCA is attributed to be the lightest combat aircraft in the world. It will also be used by the IAF to train pilots in its twin seated version

 

[Pintu]

The Asian Age - Enjoy the difference

Nod to Rs 8,000cr for production of Tejas

B.R. Srikanth

Bengaluru

Dec. 15: In a major leg-up for one of the country’s most crucial indigenous defence initiatives, the Centre has sanctioned a massive Rs 8,000 crores to begin production of the fighter jet Tejas for the IAF and Indian Navy.

The lion’s share of this outlay, Rs 5,000 crores, will be for the manufacture of the jets for the IAF, while the rest will be for the development of a variant for the Navy, P.S. Subramanyam, director of the Aeronautical Development Agency which coordinates the Light Combat Aircraft programme, told this newspaper. "This is very good encouragement for a homegrown programme, but the challenge ahead is that we must deliver the jets on time. The first of these fighters will join the IAF’s fleet early 2011. The Air Force has ordered one squadron (20 fighters), and is in the process of ordering another squadron," he said.

Official sources said the IAF has committed to the purchase of 140 more jets, for seven squadrons, with more powerful engines. Next year, the LCA programme will cross another milestone with the maiden flight of the naval version.

This variant will be designed to operate from aircraft carriers INS Vikramaditya and the Air Defence Ship.

 

[RPK]

Chindits: Kaveri-Snecma JV Try Back-door Entry In LCA

Indian Air Force (IAF) has submitted a report to the Ministry of Defence (MoD) about how the

present engine in the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas fighter aircraft, the American GE 404, does not meet the requirements of the IAF, and that the indigenous Kaveri engine has design problems, both of which are being seriously considered by the Government.

On December 14, Defence Minister A K Antony made a statement in Lok Sabha that the proposal put forth by Bangalore-based GTRE (Gas Turbine Research Establishment), of a joint venture between Kaveri and Snecma of France to bail out Kaveri, was under consideration by the Government, adding that the tender for 99 engines to be delivered by the winning company, both of whom have responded for commercial and technical proposals along with technology transfer. The competing concerns are the American GE F414 from General Electric Aviation and the German EJ200 from Eurojet.

The first 40 LCA aircraft will be powered by the American GE 404, while the ones after that would have either the American GE F414 from General Electric Aviation, or the German EJ200 from Eurojet, both of whom have responded to the tender floated by the Indian Government for a new engine for the aircraft, as the Kaveri-Snecma tie-up too was put down by Air Headquarters.

The Kaveri-Snecma joint venture has been criticised by the IAF on grounds that Snecma, which is a derivative of the M-88 engine developed for the Rafale aircraft, has a similar core like that of the Kaveri engine and the joint venture involves GTRE building the peripheral of the core, which would not solve the purpose of having the joint venture, but would basically be the license production of Snecma, for which around 300 orders are being envisaged by Snecma before it enters into this license production.

A senior IAF officer told People's Post, "Jet engine making is a complex technology, which as of today is mastered only by four countries in the world, USA, UK, Russia and France. GTRE has spent 40 years trying to make jet engines and about 1500 crores on the Kaveri programme. While the LCA is yet to meet the IAF's air staff requirements (ASR) in acceleration, sustained turn rate and other parameters, its performance is no better than the MiG-21 'Bison', the thrust of the GE 404 engine being used in it now is not enough as the aircraft is heavy." By the inclusion of Snecma, the purpose of indigenisation is defeated by the GTRE and even if Snecma is involved, it will not disclose its core technology, which amounts to nothing but license production, he added.

A jet engine has two parts, cold and hot part, where the hot part forms the core of the engine where combustion and the thermodynamics of the engine take place. The LCA requires an engine with more than 90 KN thrust, while the Kaveri and GE 404 are less than that.

It is reportedly learnt that GTRE has agreed to de-link Kaveri from LCA, but has put in a proposal that when the first 40 GE 404 engines in the initial two squadrons of the LCA for the IAF, get phased out should be replaced by the Kaveri-Snecma, in future.

The contract for the new engines is to be signed by mid-2010, while the modified aircraft frame and engine trials would take four years, before serial production begins. The weight of the LCA is nine tons and is being considered to be reduced by 150 kgs. Whichever engine the indigenous aircraft is powered by finally, weight reduction and other modifications would be required which would push back this already delayed project of the DRDO.

 

[mattster]

Am I correct in saying that no company from any part of the world is going to give away turbofan jet engine technology no matter what you pay them, or whatever joint development agreements you sign ??

Based on all the posting I have read here and elsewhere; this is the inevitable conclusion.

So the question is why not just delink the LCA development from the Kaveri completely, and get a consortium of top unversities and private industry with GTRE to create Kaveri with enough thrust. The universities can do the basic reasearch like materials, etc and private companies can help with various components

India need the equivalent to something like the JPL(jet propulsion labratory at Caltech in Pasadena, California). This is where much of the early foundation for jet and rocket propulsion stuff in the US was developed. It was thru heavy involvement with academia and these people eventually moved to the defense industries, thereby creating a knowledge pipeline.

Why not just move ahead with the Kaveri for the LCA Mk-2 and forget about redesigning the LCA to take in the Kaveri - just go with a foreign engine for the whole serial production lot of the LCA.

Who cares if it is not 100% indigenous....so what ?? Ultimately you need to provide a competitive fighter to the IAF.

Isn't this the lesson that the Chinese have learnt with the WS-10 development. They have learnt that they could not link engine development to an aircraft development. It took them a long time to learn that lesson and we seem to be taking a very long time to learn the same lesson.

I often wonder if the MOD in India, ever makes an attempt to research the experience of other countries before embarking on huge projects ??

 

[Rahul Singh]

Chindits: Kaveri-Snecma JV Try Back-door Entry In LCA

While the LCA is yet to meet the IAF's air staff requirements (ASR) in acceleration, sustained turn rate and other parameters,

This is exactly the reason why IAF is asking for a up-thrust turbofan. But here one thing is most important and which is, Tejas doesn't meets revised ASR

its performance is no better than the MiG-21 'Bison', the thrust of the GE 404 engine being used in it now is not enough as the aircraft is heavy.

What the author means by his words? Didn't he heard that IAF is in process to table order for 20 more HF-XX Tejas while quoting the reason that Tejas is a much better fighter(aerodynamically, not counting the fact that Tejas flies with 4.5 gen avionics) even with current GE-404 IN20 turbofan.

 

[badguy2000]

Am I correct in saying that no company from any part of the world is going to give away turbofan jet engine technology no matter what you pay them, or whatever joint development agreements you sign ??

Based on all the posting I have read here and elsewhere; this is the inevitable conclusion.

So the question is why not just delink the LCA development from the Kaveri completely, and get a consortium of top unversities and private industry with GTRE to create Kaveri with enough thrust. The universities can do the basic reasearch like materials, etc and private companies can help with various components

India need the equivalent to something like the JPL(jet propulsion labratory at Caltech in Pasadena, California). This is where much of the early foundation for jet and rocket propulsion stuff in the US was developed. It was thru heavy involvement with academia and these people eventually moved to the defense industries, thereby creating a knowledge pipeline.

Why not just move ahead with the Kaveri for the LCA Mk-2 and forget about redesigning the LCA to take in the Kaveri - just go with a foreign engine for the whole serial production lot of the LCA.

Who cares if it is not 100% indigenous....so what ?? Ultimately you need to provide a competitive fighter to the IAF.

Isn't this the lesson that the Chinese have learnt with the WS-10 development. They have learnt that they could not link engine development to an aircraft development. It took them a long time to learn that lesson and we seem to be taking a very long time to learn the same lesson.

I often wonder if the MOD in India, ever makes an attempt to research the experience of other countries before embarking on huge projects ??

the R&D of engine needs the support of full industry chains and infrastructures,from upper streams like materials to the mid steams like machining,to down mainstreams like varieties testing-beds and windy tunnels.


the problems that most countres like India have to face is that their industry chains are not as full as USA ,RUssia and EU.

For example.

Most modern engine blades are made of "single crystal material" .when India develops engines, Indian suddenly find they can not manufacture it at all. So India have to develop the material from scratch. the development of "single crytal material " take indian decades and the whole project of LCA has to be delayed for it. Instead, USA worked out such material in 1950s-1960s,long before they launch the engine projects.

When India devleoped engines, Indian suddenly found that they have not build enough windy tunnels and testing beds at all, so they have to send its engines to Russia or French for key tests,because Indians found they have no enough time and money to build so many expensive infrastructures.

.......
besides, sophicated NC machine and supersized forging-tech are also needed for the R&D of manchines. Developed countries like USA and EU have applies those tech widely to their civilian workshops.so they can easily transplant those tech to the R&D of engines while India has to develop those tech fro the scratch...

 

[Rahul Singh]

It is true that India lacks expertise for the development of crucial sub-systems. But we are catching up fast. And, for this, thanks must go to LCA project. This sole project changed the mentality of Indians. Today India has developed many 'first-in-India' only because these were required for LCA.

 

[mattster]

the R&D of engine needs the support of full industry chains and infrastructures,from upper streams like materials to the mid steams like machining,to down mainstreams like varieties testing-beds and windy tunnels.


the problems that most countres like India have to face is that their industry chains are not as full as USA ,RUssia and EU.

For example.

Most modern engine blades are made of "single crystal material" .when India develops engines, Indian suddenly find they can not manufacture it at all. So India have to develop the material from scratch. the development of "single crytal material " take indian decades and the whole project of LCA has to be delayed for it. Instead, USA worked out such material in 1950s-1960s,long before they launch the engine projects.

When India devleoped engines, Indian suddenly found that they have not build enough windy tunnels and testing beds at all, so they have to send its engines to Russia or French for key tests,because Indians found they have no enough time and money to build so many expensive infrastructures.

.......
besides, sophicated NC machine and supersized forging-tech are also needed for the R&D of manchines. Developed countries like USA and EU have applies those tech widely to their civilian workshops.so they can easily transplant those tech to the R&D of engines while India has to develop those tech fro the scratch...

Yeah.....I agree with most of your comments. Any country that is starting out on this course has a huge learning curve and mistakes are going to be made, and I am sure China made some of the same mistakes that India made in Kaveri.

So yes there is a certain element of unpredictability in a complex development process like this, and a lot of "learning on the fly".

But still I think that Indian defense planners(MOD) are just not realistic on assessing the local capabilities and dont seem to have what it takes to see these types of complex projects through to fruition.

I would put the blame for this Kaveri mess on the top level management of the MOD and the defense department for poor oversight.

 

[enlightened1]

What the author means by his words? Didn't he heard that IAF is in process to table order for 20 more HF-XX Tejas while quoting the reason that Tejas is a much better fighter(aerodynamically, not counting the fact that Tejas flies with 4.5 gen avionics) even with current GE-404 IN20 turbofan.

She is the same journalist who had claimed that Arihants's reactor was bought from Rubin & that she was going to post actual pics of arihant in her dock

 

[Rahul Singh]

So, the author is a woman. Well! the flaws are expected.

I guess woman in photo is the author. I believe, for her commendable work, she should be crowned Miss. DDM universe.

Link