ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[p2prada]

Now I want to request an explanation from the journalist who had written that, it takes 2-3 days preparatory time for LCA Tejas LSPs to take to the skies again, from the time of last flight.

I believe you are mistaken in the working of an air force.

An F-22 needs 36 hours of ground work for every hour of air time. Does that mean the F-22 flies every alternate day for an hour? No.

The 2-3 days preparatory time is correct. It takes LCA over 72 hours of ground work before it flies again and this figure is a statistic.

For eg: If you car needs a full day of servicing after every 5000Km, that also means your car needs to undergo one hour of servicing every 200 Kms. Does that mean you have your car serviced for an hour after you finish 200 Km every time? No. You have your car serviced after you reach 5000Km. That's what the LCA and F-22 figures translate to. It is a statistic.

Engines, airframe etc are maintained in terms of hours. For eg: Engines undergo maintenance checks every 200 hours, that's equivalent to 200 hours of flight. The engine itself may see some days to weeks in the workshop. So if the Rafale finishes 200 hours a year, the engine is checked once every year for a decent amount of time. That time is reduced to flight hours for compilation of data. The journo simply fails to explain the statistic and laymen are simply caught up in the muddle where they end up assuming their car needs to go to the garage after every 200 Km.

I hope the car analogy suffices in explaining it.

In terms of the number of flight hours and flights, LCA's schedule is extremely poor. When Dassault built Rafale, the 3rd prototype of Rafale, out of 4, had completed 1500 hours of flight testing before it was inducted. The other three had also completed 1000 hours each before early induction. All this in just 6 years. LCA's dozen plus prototypes have not even reached one Rafale prototype's figure even after 12 years. FGFA is expected to finish 5000 hours of flight testing with just 3 prototypes. That's the level we need to reach if we are to make LCA Mk2 and AMCA successful.

LCA Mk1 only needs 2000-2500 hours of flight testing for IOC and FOC. LCA Mk2 may need around 1000 hours of flight testing, which they have planned to do in 2 years (something most people are very sceptical about). AMCA may be needed to do at least 5000 hours in a shorter period of time.

 

[ladder]

Thanks @p2prada , for explaining so lucidly the working.

But, please look at the below quoted text, which I have quoted from the original article.

"Normally, a combat plane is ready for its next sortie following a 30-minute attention from ground service personnel soon after it has returned from a mission. In the case of LCA, after a single sortie of about an hour or so, it needs three days of servicing before it can go for its next sortie," they said.

Sir, I think it was deliberate.

Tejas grounds Medium Combat Aircraft project - The New Indian Express

 

[p2prada]

In the case of LCA, after a single sortie of about an hour or so, it needs three days of servicing before it can go for its next sortie," they said.

This contains all the information that is required.

For every flight hour, LCA undergoes 3 days of maintenance. This is quite acceptable for prototypes.

The part in bold is what everybody is confused about. Let's face it, our journos are not well versed in the technicalities of the aerospace world, so their info is always muddled with info that is only half correct.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Flight test update

From

LCA-Tejas has completed 2234 Test Flights Successfully. (25-June-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-365,LSP1-74,LSP2-273,PV5-36,LSP3-144,LSP4-85,LSP5-188,LSP7-48,NP1-4,LSP8-15)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 2235 Test Flights Successfully. (25-June-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-365,LSP1-74,LSP2-273,PV5-36,LSP3-144,LSP4-86,LSP5-188,LSP7-48,NP1-4,LSP8-15)

 

[ersakthivel]

I believe you are mistaken in the working of an air force.

An F-22 needs 36 hours of ground work for every hour of air time. Does that mean the F-22 flies every alternate day for an hour? No.

The 2-3 days preparatory time is correct. It takes LCA over 72 hours of ground work before it flies again and this figure is a statistic.

For eg: If you car needs a full day of servicing after every 5000Km, that also means your car needs to undergo one hour of servicing every 200 Kms. Does that mean you have your car serviced for an hour after you finish 200 Km every time? No. You have your car serviced after you reach 5000Km. That's what the LCA and F-22 figures translate to. It is a statistic.

Engines, airframe etc are maintained in terms of hours. For eg: Engines undergo maintenance checks every 200 hours, that's equivalent to 200 hours of flight. The engine itself may see some days to weeks in the workshop. So if the Rafale finishes 200 hours a year, the engine is checked once every year for a decent amount of time. That time is reduced to flight hours for compilation of data. The journo simply fails to explain the statistic and laymen are simply caught up in the muddle where they end up assuming their car needs to go to the garage after every 200 Km.

I hope the car analogy suffices in explaining it.

In terms of the number of flight hours and flights, LCA's schedule is extremely poor. When Dassault built Rafale, the 3rd prototype of Rafale, out of 4, had completed 1500 hours of flight testing before it was inducted. The other three had also completed 1000 hours each before early induction. All this in just 6 years. LCA's dozen plus prototypes have not even reached one Rafale prototype's figure even after 12 years. FGFA is expected to finish 5000 hours of flight testing with just 3 prototypes. That's the level we need to reach if we are to make LCA Mk2 and AMCA successful.

LCA Mk1 only needs 2000-2500 hours of flight testing for IOC and FOC. LCA Mk2 may need around 1000 hours of flight testing, which they have planned to do in 2 years (something most people are very sceptical about). AMCA may be needed to do at least 5000 hours in a shorter period of time.

before 12 years there were only TDs that were meant to prove the basic tech.

no PVs and LSps then.

And in 2004 second FSED phase was started according to new weapon spec from IAf leading to major redesign of wing, which is not there in RAFALE.

There is a full MSD Wollen article saying considering the late funding in 1993 there is no way one can expect IOC before 2010,

At that time he could not have known further delays due to FSED- phase -two.

For your information he compared the time line of RAFALE for better understanding the complications of the first new fighter development project with Relaxed static stability FCS based 4.5th gen fighter.

That article has been posted more than five times in the thread.

The journo did not fail to explain it. he did it knowingly to paint a picture as if LCA systems needs 3 days servicing for each hour of flight. So 2 to 3 days of preparatory time is the time taken to decide the next testing point after analyzing all the data of the previous flight.

But what the journo did is to paint as if it all LCA sub systems need 3 days of down time and servicing after every hour of flight alleging that it has no ability to make 2 or 3 sorties a day.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Tejas >>

 

[Kunal Biswas]

DRDO CHIEF INTERVIEW Part1: First Full-Rate Production Tejas This Year

The first two to three full-rate production LCA Tejas Mk.1 fighters for the Indian Air Force will roll out HAL's production facility in Bangalore in December, marking a major milestone in the trouble's programme's final leg. The aircraft will be the first of an order of 40 placed by the IAF of the Mk.1 variant slated to enter squadron service by the end of next year.With over 2,200 test sorties on the board, the Tejas has 140 hours of test flying left before it achieves the second phase of its initial operational clearance (IOC-2)

Final operational clearance (FOC)), the final step before induction into an IAF squadron, is set for November-December 2014. "We will complete the FOC by 2014 end.

Right about the time that the Tejas Mk.1 achieves IOC-2, two more naval prototypes will roll out, followed by a first flight before the end of the year. "The test facility is getting ready. I am confident that the LCA Navy will be on schedule," says Dr Chander.

"The safety record of the Tejas during testing has been absolutely superb. No other aircraft has this record," Dr Chander says with pride.

The new DRDO chief has asked for an update every alternate day on the LCA programme, and will be briefed by his special team entrusted with keeping things on track over the next 18 months.

Source : Livefist: DRDO CHIEF INTERVIEW Part1: First Full-Rate Production LCAs This Year

 

[Ganesh2691]

LCA Flight test update

LCA-Tejas has completed 2242 Test Flights Successfully. (27-June-2013).

(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-365,LSP1-74,LSP2-274,PV5-36,LSP3-147,LSP4-87,LSP5-190,LSP7-48,NP1-4,LSP8-15)

From
LCA-Tejas has completed 2235 Test Flights Successfully. (25-June-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-365,LSP1-74,LSP2-273,PV5-36,LSP3-144,LSP4-86,LSP5-188,LSP7-48,NP1-4,LSP8-15)

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Astra missile will finally be test-fired

The beyond visual range (BVR) missile, with an eventual strike range of over 100km, will be fired for the first time from a Sukhoi-30MKI fighter this year.

Astra will have a Mark-I version with a 44-km range, which will be followed by the over 100km Mark-II version. "Astra will be a state-of-the-art missile that will first be fitted on Sukhoi-30MKIs and then Tejas Light Combat Aircraft, followed by others. We are pretty confident it will happen soon," said Chander.

With these "developmental flight trials" slated to soon kick off, which will involve a battery of tests covering the entire flight envelope, the aim is to make Astra ready for induction by mid-2015 "if there are no further surprises", added the DRDO chief.

Source : Long-delayed Astra missile will finally be test-fired - TOI Mobile | The Times of India Mobile Site

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Flight test update

From

LCA-Tejas has completed 2242 Test Flights Successfully. (27-June-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-365,LSP1-74,LSP2-274,PV5-36,LSP3-147,LSP4-87,LSP5-190,LSP7-48,NP1-4,LSP8-15)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 2247 Test Flights Successfully. (29-June-2013).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-365,LSP1-74,LSP2-274,PV5-36,LSP3-148,LSP4-90,LSP5-191,LSP7-48,NP1-4,LSP8-15)

 

[Kunal Biswas]

There something that i like to Point Out On Astra..

Observed by @ersakthivel in DFI & @ Karan M from BR..

Extracted from here : Bharat Rakshak "¢ View topic - LCA News and Discussions

==================

This is what DRDL noted in Aero India, earlier in the year.

All Aspect
All Weather
BVR & CCM
Active Radar Terminal Guidance
Excellent ECCM Features
Smokeless Propulsion
Improved Effectiveness in Multi-Target Scenario

Launch Modes
Dual Mode Guidance
Autonomous Mode Guidance
Buddy Mode
Slaving of Seeker with IRST / HMS
Seeker Autonomous Search Mode before Launch
Lock-on Before Launch (LOBL)
Lock on After Launch (LOAL)
Off-Bore_Sight Launch up to 45 deg either side

The parts in bold are the one that are impressive, as they indicate the Astra can bridge the gap between a CCM and a BVR missile and can also be guided by another aircraft. This permits sneaky tactics. The Sea Harrier LUSH upgrade also conferred this capability on the platform per IN reports. but the IAF has been justifiably quite if they have implemented something similar.

Astra missile will finally be test-fired

 

[ersakthivel]

There something that i like to Point Out On Astra..

Observed by @ersakthivel in DFI & @ Karan M from BR..

Extracted from here : Bharat Rakshak "¢ View topic - LCA News and Discussions

==================

This is what DRDL noted in Aero India, earlier in the year.



The parts in bold are the one that are impressive, as they indicate the Astra can bridge the gap between a CCM and a BVR missile and can also be guided by another aircraft. This permits sneaky tactics. The Sea Harrier LUSH upgrade also conferred this capability on the platform per IN reports. but the IAF has been justifiably quite if they have implemented something similar.

.

this buddy mode on ASTRA maximizes tejas performance when teamed with big RCS fighters like SUKHOI that have very powerful radars that can track target well beyond 200 kms.

So if tejas gets teamed up with Su-30, tejas can fly in front attaining an optimum firing position permitted by it's lower RCS in radar silent mode and use the missile in buddy mode guidance from powerful su-30 radars flying at a safe distance back.Effectively making the Su-30 a mini awacs while using the lower RCS of Tejas.

 

[p2prada]

What nonsense. Buddy mode is over 20 years old. It merely means two missiles ripple fired are able to share data on approach.

CCM means counter-counter measures, meant for Home on Jam. This is a decade old. Karan M has obviously confused himself between CCM and CCD.

 

[Decklander]

.

this buddy mode on ASTRA maximizes tejas performance when teamed with big RCS fighters like SUKHOI that have very powerful radars that can track target well beyond 200 kms.

So if tejas gets teamed up with Su-30, tejas can fly in front attaining an optimum firing position permitted by it's lower RCS in radar silent mode and use the missile in buddy mode guidance from powerful su-30 radars flying at a safe distance back.Effectively making the Su-30 a mini awacs while using the lower RCS of Tejas.

IMHO anyone who thinks that ASTRA will be a good missile for Buddy mode firing is a fool and that includes DRDO. Buddy mode will be best for missiles like Novator-172 or likes wherein the terminal guidance and last minute changes to target coordinates can be updated by buddy mode. range of 44 kms and buddy mode firing makes a joke of this missile.
It will however be a good solution to 120kms+ range Mk2.

 

[ersakthivel]

IMHO anyone who thinks that ASTRA will be a good missile for Buddy mode firing is a fool and that includes DRDO. Buddy mode will be best for missiles like Novator-172 or likes wherein the terminal guidance and last minute changes to target coordinates can be updated by buddy mode. range of 44 kms and buddy mode firing makes a joke of this missile.
It will however be a good solution to 120kms+ range Mk2.

First read the article it says that ASTRA will be updated to 100 plus km in future by the time that is when buddy mode along with surrogate craft guidance will make it an asset.

may be by the time tejas fills in with substantial numbers a few years from now this 100 km plus missile with buddy mode is an asset to Tejas. That was what KUNAL meant.

So no one is a fool here.

 

[ersakthivel]

What nonsense. Buddy mode is over 20 years old. It merely means two missiles ripple fired are able to share data on approach.

CCM means counter-counter measures, meant for Home on Jam. This is a decade old. Karan M has obviously confused himself between CCM and CCD.

both the ripple fire missiles can be updated from a surrogate aircraft instead of the firing craft was what Karan meant.

if both the missiles are guided via a data link from mother craft or surrogate craft then it will be a real asset.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I don't think 40km ones either, make no sense for me & you nor DRDO so does IAF..

100kms Astra is meant fo, MBDA meteor missile follow the same suit with Rafale..

IMHO anyone who thinks that ASTRA will be a good missile for Buddy mode firing is a fool and that includes DRDO. Buddy mode will be best for missiles like Novator-172 or likes wherein the terminal guidance and last minute changes to target coordinates can be updated by buddy mode. range of 44 kms and buddy mode firing makes a joke of this missile.
It will however be a good solution to 120kms+ range Mk2.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Lets be Civil, Keep this thread Only TEJAS ....

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@Drsomnath999, I saw a Graphical representation of Meteor Missile few Months back, Where one Rafale was launching the other was painting the Target, If possible can you post that poster here..

Thanks In Advance..

 

[Drsomnath999]

[COLOR="#0000FF"

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@Drsomnath999, I saw a Graphical representation of Meteor Missile few Months back, Where one Rafale was launching the other was painting the Target, If possible can you post that poster here..

Thanks In Advance..

Well sorry i dont remember which poster are u talking about ???

May be mention @halloweene he is the man!!! who can post that pic

he is always uptodate regarding rafale

 

[arnabmit]

140 hours till LCA achieves IOC-2

By September, the LCA Tejas will achieve initial operation clearance 2 (IOC-2) and begin moving towards production, according to DRDO Chief Avinash Chander. Revealing that approximately 140 hours of test-flying remained to sort out the residual test-points, the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) has been asked to stick to a September deadline for IOC-2 and speedily move towards final operational clearance 14 months later.

Starting October this year, the Tejas platforms will be put through a literally endless routine of weather and weapons trials across the country. The Tejas programme was also recently given a non-negotiable ultimatum by Defence Minister A.K. Antony calling for induction into the IAF by next year. As a result, the programme has willy-nilly become the highest priority of the DRDO, and additional resources may be allocated to the programme in terms of manpower, to ensure that it does not stray from its path for even a moment. It has also been recently reported that in an effort to speed up delays in productionisation, series production of aircraft will be undertaken from this year itself, instead of next year as was the original plan.