ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[Atul]

A distant FOC …
The article also takes a dim view of the defence ministry's happiness at the LCA conducting a successful test firing of an air-to-air missile. The ministry's proclamation of it as a ''historic event'' marking the beginning of the 'weaponisation' of the LCA seems inappropriate to the author.
The author of the above-mentioned article points out the repeated rescheduling of the initial operational clearance and final operational clearance of the Tejas: ''As things stand now, IOC is projected by 2010 and FOC by 2012.'' Well, the Eurofighter still has to assume its final Tranche 3 avatar, so it will actually complete three decades before it achieves FOC itself. And, as pointed out earlier, the F-22 Raptor achieved FOC on 12 December 2007, a full 21 years after project sanction.

 

[Atul]

Changing requirements
The article says that blame for the delay in the LCA programme needs to be apportioned equally between various agencies involved, such as ''the Aeronautical Development Agency, Defence Research and Development Organisation, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd, and even the IAF, which has frequently changed requirements of weapons and electronic warfare midway, have to share the blame''.

Sure, playing the blame game is so easy. But what happens worldwide? What do similar organisations around the world, such as the USAF or US Navy or US Army do with their programmes?

The question is, why not? Life is dynamic - scenarios change overnight. War strategies and battlefield scenarios have changed dramatically since 1983. Should the DRDO have stuck to the scenarios as they existed 25 years ago, and rendered the LCA obsolete even before it went into production?

Obsolescence

The article points out that the IAF has placed an order for only 20 aircraft even though early projections were for 220 aircraft for the IAF and the Indian Navy. It also says that the IAF is worried whether ''the LCA will be a top-notch fighter once it is ready.''

The 20 limited series production aircraft order from the Indian Air Force is an initial order. Any order for a new fighter aircraft is invariably for at least 40. A naval version is also under development and an initial order from the Indian Navy is also very likely. A naval version will allow our Air Defence Ship, currently under construction at the Kochi shipyards, to carry a larger complement of fighters onboard, as compared to the larger Mig-29Ks that are currently scheduled to operate only from the INS Vikramaditya (ex-Admiral Gorshkov).

As for worries about the LCA not being a top-notch fighter when finally ready, how different is this predicament that from the Eurofighter? By the time the Tranche 3 Eurofighter achieves full operationalisation, America's F-22 and JSF-35 programmes will already have overtaken it technologically. So, no surprises if the same is true for the LCA.

The point of trying to develop the LCA indigenously was not merely to supply aircraft to the IAF and the navy. Just as the Europeans have used the Eurofighter to develop their technologies for next generation projects, the Indian defence R&D establishment has sought to use the LCA as a platform on which to develop several technologies for the future.

The Europeans know that if there is a political rift with the Americans, they will find themselves up a creek without a paddle. The development of top-notch technology through the Typhoon programme gives them independence from US hegemony.

It would, therefore, be wrong to look upon the LCA merely as a fighter-manufacturing programme. It is in fact a unique test bed for the development of aerospace technologies that will take us to an acceptable level of competence in this field. It is a fighter programme, a technology demonstrator and a technology generator, all at the same time.
Upon maturity, the programme may serve the purpose it was designed for, which is to fight - or it might not. That wouldn't matter. By then it would have developed enough technologies to provide a technology base for our own medium combat aircraft (MCA) programme.

The MCA is India's own fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) programme. Though we have a pact with the Russians to co-develop an FGFA with them, the MCA is our fallback. If and when the Russians act tough and repeat a Gorshkov on this programme, we shouldn't find ourselves scrounging around for the required technology.

By the time the LCA achieves maturity it would have already paid back in full, by way of technologies and expertise that it would have generated over the life of its programme.

For that matter, domestic orders aren't the only option for such a project. Pompous though it may sound, there is a possibility that smaller countries may opt for something like the LCA, which for them may well be a more comfortable, manageable aircraft, both in terms of cost and technology. Not every country will be interested in the F-22 Raptor, purchasing a squadron of which could very likely wipe out half, or more, of some national economies.

If India builds its own technology capabilities, who loses? It's the arms merchants of the world. So, come events like the DefExpo in New Delhi, they would love to have some mainline newspapers do some DRDO bashing. That can reinforce some myths about Indian R&D and help them sell some of their wares. But there is no reason we should fall for these ploys.
:vehicle_plane::vehicle_plane:

 

[nitesh]

mess of things:

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/what-went-wrong-with-lca-arjun-tank-akash-missile/429935/1


Light Combat Aircraft (LCA)

StatuS: The fighter may even miss the revised deadline of December 2010 by “one-two years” as DRDO has not been able to generate enough test flights. The present fighter fails to meet requirements set by the Air Force in 1985. Some major requirements that will not be met even after induction include mismatch of aircraft weight to power available from its engines, inadequate turn rates, low supersonic acceleration and achieving maximum angle of attack. The Kaveri engine being developed is nowhere near completion. LCA’s weight has increased 900 kg over the original 9 ton.


Way Ahead

•Accepting LCA in its “sub-optimal performance” as LCA Mk I, IAF to induct 48 of these underpowered fighters.

•However, new teams to be formed immediately to develop a Mk II version that will meet the original requirements identified in 1985.

•The laboratory behind the project — the Aeronautic Development Agency (ADA) — be merged with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

•Take up any future military aerospace programme as a joint venture with foreign aircraft design organisations.

•Kaveri engine project to be taken up as a co-design programme with foreign collaborator.

 

[A.V.]

Second phase of weapon testing on Tejas underway

The second phase of weapon testing on Tejas is currently underway from an Air Force base in the north-western sector. The focus of the current phase of testing is safe separation and also accuracy of weapon delivery. The results from the tests would validate aerodynamic interference data as well as complex weapon release algorithms in different modes of release.

A Composite test team comprising of specialists from ADA, IAF, HAL, NAL, ADE, DGAQA and CEMILAC had been put in place at the trial location where the flight test is being conducted by National Flight Test Centre.

Arrangements are in place for directly linking the trial location with the base telemetry station at Bangalore via INSAT and also through a secluded fiber optic channel. With this arrangement, designers and other specialists are able to monitor in realtime, the activities in general and vital parameters in particular, as the trial is going on thousands of kilometers away. Specifically for this trial, accurate upper air data is gathered at the trial location using GPS Radiosonde supplied by ISRO.

The mood at ADA and other organizations involved in the trial is upbeat as the information has just come in, that Tejas has scored a direct hit on the target in the first test sortie itself. The trials are planned for two weeks’ duration.

http://frontierindia.net/second-phase-of-weapon-testing-on-tejas-underway#more-3601

 

[nitesh]

photo from: http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2009/03/lca-bombing-run.html

 

[pyromaniac]

The second phase of weapon testing on Tejas is currently underway from an Air Force base in the north-western sector. The focus of the current phase of testing is safe separation and also accuracy of weapon delivery. The results from the tests would validate aerodynamic interference data as well as complex weapon release algorithms in different modes of release.

A Composite test team comprising of specialists from ADA, IAF, HAL, NAL, ADE, DGAQA and CEMILAC had been put in place at the trial location where the flight test is being conducted by National Flight Test Centre.

Arrangements are in place for directly linking the trial location with the base telemetry station at Bangalore via INSAT and also through a secluded fiber optic channel. With this arrangement, designers and other specialists are able to monitor in realtime, the activities in general and vital parameters in particular, as the trial is going on thousands of kilometers away. Specifically for this trial, accurate upper air data is gathered at the trial location using GPS Radiosonde supplied by ISRO.

The mood at ADA and other organizations involved in the trial is upbeat as the information has just come in, that Tejas has scored a direct hit on the target in the first test sortie itself. The trials are planned for two weeks’ duration.

http://frontierindia.net/second-phase-of-weapon-testing-on-tejas-underway#more-3601

Didn't they run like a 1000 tests already?

 

[nitesh]

Didn't they run like a 1000 tests already?

Pyro more then 1000 test flights have happen now the weapon testing is on

 

[nitesh]

http://www.hindu.com/2009/03/05/stories/2009030557340100.htm

Tejas scores direct hit in first test sortie

Bangalore: India’s light combat aircraft Tejas was on Wednesday bang on target in the first test sortie in the second phase of weapon testing under way from an Air Force base in north-western sector, said the DRDO.

 

[jayadev]

LCA-Tejas has completed 1065 Test Flights successfully. (05-Mar-09).

LCA has completed 1065 Test Flights successfully
(TD1-233, TD2-304,PV1-186,PV2-115,PV3-133,LSP1-42,LSP2-52).
133rd flight of Tejas PV3 occurred on 05th Mar 09.

http://www.ada.gov.in/Others/Curren...-Mar-09_Tejas-LCA_/_06-Mar-09_tejas-lca_.html

LCA-Tejas has completed 1064 Test Flights successfully. (05-Mar-09).

LCA has completed 1064 Test Flights successfully
(TD1-233, TD2-304,PV1-186,PV2-115,PV3-132,LSP1-42,LSP2-52).
115th flight of Tejas PV2 occurred on 04th Mar 09.
131st & 132nd flight of Tejas PV3 occurred on 04th Mar 09.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

bombs used in LCA tests

 

[nitesh]

Elta 2052 news getting confirmed

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/03/05/323365/indias-tejas-could-get-israeli-radar.html

Israel Aerospace Industries' subsidiary Elta Systems last year began talks with Indian companies that are involved in an effort to develop an indigenous radar for the Tejas, with the discussions linked to Elta's active electronically scanned array EL/M-2052.

 

[nitesh]

http://deccanherald.com/Content/Mar92009/national20090308122857.asp

Indigenous LCA engine ready for maiden trial
DH News Service, New Delhi:

After two decades of copious criticism from every quarter, the indigenous Kaveri engine is ready for its maiden flight trial in 2010.


“We have completed all ground testing for the full engine and individual components. The first flight (in a light combat aircraft) is expected in early 2010,” T Mohana Rao, director of the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), Bangalore, which is developing the engine, told Deccan Herald.

Way back in 1986, the Defence Ministry wanted to develop an indigenous gas turbine engine for the indigenous fighter, Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), which just got off from the drawing board.

The decision led to the Kaveri programme, which was sanctioned in 1989 with an initial funding support of Rs 382.81 crore.

Clueless scientists

But over the years, Kaveri exemplified everything that is wrong with Indian defence research.

There was serious time and cost overrun and the programme was unable to meet many of its stated objectives. Many government and Parliamentary committees blamed the GTRE and the DRDO for India’s failure to have an indigenous engine for the fighter planes in time despite promises.

On the eve of the flight trial, Rao said when they were assigned the critical task they had no clue about the difficulties and were literally groping in the dark.

“We were thoroughly mistaken about the time. No one guided us. We were in dark along with our countrymen,” the GTRE chief admitted.

Rao confessed that there were flaws in the planning process when the project was conceived.

“We were over-optimistic that in six to eight years time, we will be able to make a gas turbine engine from scratch. But it was a myth,” he said.

Almost for the first seventeen years, GTRE scientists had to work in isolation as there was hardly any outside consultation with other engine manufacturers. “We just had some hunch. Consultation started since the last three years,” he said.

There was no test facility in India because of which the engine had to be sent abroad every time for test, further increasing the development time. The centre has so far sanctioned Rs 2080 crore for Kaveri. This, according to Rao, is one-fifth of what other nations have spent on developing similar gas turbine engines.

When the Kaveri programme was sanctioned in 1989, technical specifications were drawn out on the basis of a theoretical concept of the LCA. With the evolution of the LCA design, changes in the engine specifications were necessitated. Till date, GTRE made eight full engines and four core engines which do not have the low-pressure components and some other machinery.

Three cores and one full engine underwent testing in simulated conditions. In the next couple of months, full altitude testing in simulated conditions would be carried out to ensure that the engine can fire between 0-8 km altitudes.

This will be followed by the flight trial in another few months.

 

[EnlightenedMonk]

http://deccanherald.com/Content/Mar92009/national20090308122857.asp

Indigenous LCA engine ready for maiden trial
DH News Service, New Delhi:

After two decades of copious criticism from every quarter, the indigenous Kaveri engine is ready for its maiden flight trial in 2010.


“We have completed all ground testing for the full engine and individual components. The first flight (in a light combat aircraft) is expected in early 2010,” T Mohana Rao, director of the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), Bangalore, which is developing the engine, told Deccan Herald.

Way back in 1986, the Defence Ministry wanted to develop an indigenous gas turbine engine for the indigenous fighter, Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), which just got off from the drawing board.

The decision led to the Kaveri programme, which was sanctioned in 1989 with an initial funding support of Rs 382.81 crore.

Clueless scientists

But over the years, Kaveri exemplified everything that is wrong with Indian defence research.

There was serious time and cost overrun and the programme was unable to meet many of its stated objectives. Many government and Parliamentary committees blamed the GTRE and the DRDO for India’s failure to have an indigenous engine for the fighter planes in time despite promises.

On the eve of the flight trial, Rao said when they were assigned the critical task they had no clue about the difficulties and were literally groping in the dark.

“We were thoroughly mistaken about the time. No one guided us. We were in dark along with our countrymen,” the GTRE chief admitted.

Rao confessed that there were flaws in the planning process when the project was conceived.

“We were over-optimistic that in six to eight years time, we will be able to make a gas turbine engine from scratch. But it was a myth,” he said.

Almost for the first seventeen years, GTRE scientists had to work in isolation as there was hardly any outside consultation with other engine manufacturers. “We just had some hunch. Consultation started since the last three years,” he said.

There was no test facility in India because of which the engine had to be sent abroad every time for test, further increasing the development time. The centre has so far sanctioned Rs 2080 crore for Kaveri. This, according to Rao, is one-fifth of what other nations have spent on developing similar gas turbine engines.

When the Kaveri programme was sanctioned in 1989, technical specifications were drawn out on the basis of a theoretical concept of the LCA. With the evolution of the LCA design, changes in the engine specifications were necessitated. Till date, GTRE made eight full engines and four core engines which do not have the low-pressure components and some other machinery.

Three cores and one full engine underwent testing in simulated conditions. In the next couple of months, full altitude testing in simulated conditions would be carried out to ensure that the engine can fire between 0-8 km altitudes.

This will be followed by the flight trial in another few months.

Finally it seems to be coming together !!! I hear that the Navy is very interested in the LCA and in fact, the first deliveries might be to the Navy and not the Air Force... Any timeline for the same ???

 

[nitesh]

Finally it seems to be coming together !!! I hear that the Navy is very interested in the LCA and in fact, the first deliveries might be to the Navy and not the Air Force... Any timeline for the same ???

The IAF wants first operation squadron by 2010-2011 links are in this thread only, then how N LCA which is not even flown till now will be inducted first?

 

[EnlightenedMonk]

The IAF wants first operation squadron by 2010-2011 links are in this thread only, then how N LCA which is not even flown till now will be inducted first?

I don't know dude, it seems the Bangalore stand at Aero India was full of Naval Personnel... according to another forum and they were all going gaga about the Naval Version. So I assumed it'd be in the pipeline....

If the Air Force wants a squadron by 2010-2011, that in itself would be a tall order...

 

[nitesh]

I don't know dude, it seems the Bangalore stand at Aero India was full of Naval Personnel... according to another forum and they were all going gaga about the Naval Version. So I assumed it'd be in the pipeline....

If the Air Force wants a squadron by 2010-2011, that in itself would be a tall order...

If you don't know something then how you comment on that What other forum says does not matter until it is substantiated with some fact. And how one squadron will be a tall order in 2 years care to explain please.

 

[EnlightenedMonk]

And how one squadron will be a tall order in 2 years care to explain please.

Well ?? Have the specifications been frozen ?? Has the radar been integrated yet ??? The Engine will be ready for testing only in 2010 according to your own posted report...

Add that to the track record of HAL and you'll get the answer yourself...

 

[EnlightenedMonk]

Well ?? Have the specifications been frozen ?? Has the radar been integrated yet ??? The Engine will be ready for testing only in 2010 according to your own posted report...

Add that to the track record of HAL and you'll get the answer yourself...

Unless they decide to to with the GE engines in the first few squadrons and then goto the Kaveri engine. And, buying engines from GE also seems a tad difficult now considering that the US government has served some sort of notice to GE about the engines for the Shivalik Frigate...

 

[nitesh]

Well ?? Have the specifications been frozen ?? Has the radar been integrated yet ??? The Engine will be ready for testing only in 2010 according to your own posted report...

Add that to the track record of HAL and you'll get the answer yourself...

Now this is height of arrogance according to me. With which the LCA is flying till now? An engine right? Do you have even a slight idea about the project? Or you are shouting what ever is coming in your mind. Please do some research before typing such baseless comments.

 

[EnlightenedMonk]

Now this is height of arrogance according to me. With which the LCA is flying till now? An engine right? Do you have even a slight idea about the project? Or you are shouting what ever is coming in your mind. Please do some research before typing such baseless comments.

Maybe you ought to read this I had posted before your post -

Unless they decide to to with the GE engines in the first few squadrons and then goto the Kaveri engine. And, buying engines from GE also seems a tad difficult now considering that the US government has served some sort of notice to GE about the engines for the Shivalik Frigate...

So, don't tell me that you have 20 engines ready for the plane?? Do you?? Till then its only wishful thinking. We might at best have a handful of engines ready. So, no use talking about the contract until GE has released the 20 engines...

And, integrating a radar, even an off-the-shelf radar isn't going to be an easy task. It might take an year atleast. I don't claim to know everything, but I dont type hurtful and arrogant comments either...

Mark my words, its not happening by 2010. 2012 is my guess.