ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[ersakthivel]

Wants and having actually 6 squadrons is service is different thing, correct me if I'm wrong thanks

O.K ,IAF chief also wants 144 FGFA in IAf. Will the difference between " Want and having " will matter here or not?

 

[JBH22]

O.K ,IAF chief also wants 144 FGFA in IAf. Will the difference between " Want and having " will matter here or not?

difference is that we wanted to have twin seaters approximately 200+ plane and now the rumours are that the IAF want only 144 single seater plane. got the gist?

What I'm trying to say is that present and in coming 3-5years its practically impossible to have 6squadrons of tejas given that Mark 2 is still in design phase and Mark 1 is not in demand.

 

[ersakthivel]

difference is that we wanted to have twin seaters approximately 200+ plane and now the rumours are that the IAF want only 144 single seater plane. got the gist?

What I'm trying to say is that present and in coming 3-5years its practically impossible to have 6squadrons of tejas given that Mark 2 is still in design phase and Mark 1 is not in demand.

Please google "IAF chief BROWNIE wants all 6 squadrons of tejas to be inducted by2012" .i never said it is within 3 years.
About 40 tejas mk-1 will be in production for four years.And by the end of fourth year mk-2 would be ready.Then naturally tejas mk-2 will be added to IAf after four years of mk-1 production.
ANd the GTRE-SNECMA K-10 AMCA engine is supposed to have the same form fit as the mk-1 engine if open source reports are right. .SO mk-1 too can have that engine in MLu.Then it too will have close to mk-2 performance with excess thrust is a also a sound possibility.

 

[Blackwater]

shukar ha sarkari babus ka

 

[ersakthivel]

shukar ha sarkari babus ka

Well I can't understand the meaning.

 

[Blackwater]

delete.............

 

[Blackwater]

Well I can't understand the meaning.

thanks to our bureaucrats

 

[ersakthivel]

thanks to our bureaucrats

Of course ,delayed funding,no deadlines, no accountability.every entity blaming the other for the delay.

s 1,500 cr more for combat aircraft Tejas as HAL fails to meet targets | idrw.org

This need for additional money arises from the inability of HAL, a public sector aerospace monopoly, to establish a production line that can build at least eight Tejas fighters a year. The production line that HAL set up two years ago on the priceless real estate that it holds in the heart of Bangalore has not yet produced a single Tejas fighter.


Briefing Business Standard the Director of the Aeronautical Development Agency ( ADA), P Subramanyam, who runs the LCA programme, explains that nobody realised that setting up a production line was a technology by itself. So far, ADA and HAL have built only prototypes and limited-series Tejas aircraft, producing individual parts one-by-one like a tailor making a suit. When HAL graduated to a standardised production line, it encountered serious difficulties.

Senior IAF officers express frustration that HAL has failed to set up a Tejas assembly line, though its primary activity for the preceding decades has been to build foreign aircraft on an assembly line under licence.

Air Marshal Pranab K Barbora, who retired as the IAF vice-chief two years ago, summarises the Air Force's viewpoint: "HAL's assembly line expertise is outdated by at least three decades. They have done nothing to upgrade their technology. Setting up a modern assembly line for the Tejas is far beyond HAL's capabilities."

 

[venkat]

OT..sakthivel!! whats your take on IJT?will it ever fly in IAF colours? Can you present an analysis whats wrong with it? Basic design is faulty? Engine selection is faulty? why are we struggling ?

 

[ersakthivel]

OT..sakthivel!! whats your take on IJT?will it ever fly in IAF colours? Can you present an analysis whats wrong with it? Basic design is faulty? Engine selection is faulty? why are we struggling ?

I don't know much about it, frankly.

 

[ersakthivel]

Nopes sir...

1 squadron in the south is far from what had been envisaged when this program was initiated.

" India's self-developed Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas will be based at the IAF's brand new forward-operating base at Phalodi in Rajasthan. Medium-lift choppers, Mi-17s will also be stationed at the base which will be 102 km from the India-Pakistan border, said sources.

Uniquely, the new air base that was inaugurated four days ago is the first forward-operating airbase to be commissioned by the IAF in more than two decades. The first lot of the LCA -- a squadron of 20 aircraft -- is scheduled to be handed over to the IAF in 11 months from now. The second squadron will follow a year later -- both are being built at the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) unit at Bangalore. Once handed over to the IAF, the LCA's first base, briefly, will be at a station in South India, from where the fighters will move in batches to Phalodi, the sources said. Moving planes in small batches is a normal IAF procedure. Phalodi has the capacity to handle other aircraft besides deep penetration radars.

Defence Minister A K Antony had told Parliament last month that the first lot of the LCA would be delivered in March 2011. The Air Force is likely to accord 'initial operational clearance' by the end of this year.

Phalodi is the sixth IAF base in Rajasthan. It is located almost equidistant from the three existing IAF bases at Jaisalmer, Jodhpur and Nal (Bikaner). The IAF has two others bases in Rajasthan -- Suratgarh and Uttarlai (Barmer). Across the border opposite Phalodi are two major Pakistani military bases in Bahawalpur and Rahimyar Khan.

So tejas will be on the indo-pak border as well.

 

[ersakthivel]

" India's self-developed Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas will be based at the IAF's brand new forward-operating base at Phalodi in Rajasthan. Medium-lift choppers, Mi-17s will also be stationed at the base which will be 102 km from the India-Pakistan border, said sources.

Uniquely, the new air base that was inaugurated four days ago is the first forward-operating airbase to be commissioned by the IAF in more than two decades. The first lot of the LCA -- a squadron of 20 aircraft -- is scheduled to be handed over to the IAF in 11 months from now. The second squadron will follow a year later -- both are being built at the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) unit at Bangalore. Once handed over to the IAF, the LCA's first base, briefly, will be at a station in South India, from where the fighters will move in batches to Phalodi, the sources said. Moving planes in small batches is a normal IAF procedure. Phalodi has the capacity to handle other aircraft besides deep penetration radars.

Defence Minister A K Antony had told Parliament last month that the first lot of the LCA would be delivered in March 2011. The Air Force is likely to accord 'initial operational clearance' by the end of this year.

Phalodi is the sixth IAF base in Rajasthan. It is located almost equidistant from the three existing IAF bases at Jaisalmer, Jodhpur and Nal (Bikaner). The IAF has two others bases in Rajasthan -- Suratgarh and Uttarlai (Barmer). Across the border opposite Phalodi are two major Pakistani military bases in Bahawalpur and Rahimyar Khan.

So tejas won't be holidaying in airbases in coimbatore forever.

 

[sesha_maruthi27]

What is the use in spending 600 million $ when the engines are not going to be used until the decision on the air frame is not finalized.........

 

[Abhi9]

A detailed analysis of composites , technologies in LCA and SARAS


Manufacturing And Certification Of Composite Primary Structures For Civil And Military Aircrafts


Very good indeed

 

[arunpat]

Flight test update

From

LCA-Tejas has completed 1957 Test Flights Successfully. (15-Dec-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,LSP3-82,LSP4-56,LSP5-111,LSP7-6,NP1-4)

to

LCA-Tejas has completed 1959 Test Flights Successfully. (18-Dec-2012).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-222,PV3-348,LSP1-74,LSP2-238,PV5-36,LSP3-83,LSP4-56,LSP5-111,LSP7-7,NP1-4)

 

[ersakthivel]

The F-16 was the first production fighter aircraft intentionally designed to be slightly aerodynamically unstable, also known as "relaxed static stability" (RSS), to improve maneuverability. Most aircraft are designed with positive static stability, which induces aircraft to return to straight and level flight attitude if the pilot releases the controls. This reduces maneuverability as the aircraft must overcome its inherent stability in order to maneuver. Aircraft with negative stability are designed to deviate from controlled flight and thus be more maneuverable. At supersonic speeds the F-16 gains stability (eventually positive) due to changes in aerodynamic forces.


To counter the tendency to depart from controlled flight—and avoid the need for constant trim inputs by the pilot, the F-16 has a quadruplex (four-channel) fly-by-wire (FBW) flight control system (FLCS). The flight control computer (FLCC) accepts pilot input from the stick and rudder controls, and manipulates the control surfaces in such a way as to produce the desired result without inducing control loss. The FLCC conducts thousands of measurements per second on the aircraft's flight attitude to automatically counter deviations from the pilot-set flight path; leading to a common aphorism among pilots: "You don't fly an F-16; it flies you."

The FLCC further incorporates limiters that govern movement in the three main axes based on current attitude, airspeed and angle of attack (AOA), and prevent control surfaces from inducing instability such as slips or skids, or a high AOA inducing a stall. The limiters also prevent maneuvers that would exert more than a 9 g load.

Although each axis of movement is limited by the FLCC, flight testing revealed that "assaulting" multiple limiters at high AOA and low speed can result in an AOA far exceeding the 25° limit; colloquially referred to as "departing". This causes a deep stall; a near-freefall at 50° to 60° AOA, either upright or inverted. While at a very high AOA, the aircraft's attitude is stable but control surfaces are ineffective and the aircraft's pitch limiter locks the stabilators at an extreme pitch-up or pitch-down attempting to recover; the pitch-limiting can be overridden so the pilot can "rock" the nose via pitch control to recover.

Unlike the YF-17, which had hydromechanical controls serving as a backup to the FBW, Grumman took the innovative step of eliminating mechanical linkages between the stick and rudder pedals and the aerodynamic control surfaces. The F-16 is entirely reliant on its electrical systems to relay flight commands, instead of traditional mechanically-linked controls, leading to the early moniker of "the electric jet". The quadruplex design permits "graceful degradation" in flight control response in that the loss of one channel renders the FLCS a "triplex" system.

The FLCC began as an analog system on the A/B variants, but has been supplanted by a digital computer system beginning with the F-16C/D Block .

So this complex fly by wire system which dramatically improves the maneuverabiltiy of the fighter is not there in any other IAf craft in service except MIRAGE and SUKHOI.

Tejas is the next one going to have it.That's the reason testing has been excruciatingly slow.

So harping on topspeeds at service ceiling as the lone indicator of fighter superiority is not evn accepted by IAf.Because IAF indicated it's readiness to accept either RAFALE or TYPHOON after fully evaluating their entire flight profile depending upon the price. That is an undeniable fact.

But the point I wanted to highlight was that RAFALE had lower topspeeds than TYPHOON . Then WHY did the IAF intimated that they can accept any one of them if top speed is so important as it the main stick used to beat tejas on all forums?

Does't the IAF see it fit that a fee extra million dollars per plane is worth it if top speeds are so important?After all Even MIG-21 has higher top speeds than rafale.So why did IAf not consider the top speed so important?


TEJAS mk-1 has been repeatedly criticized in all the forums because of it's design top speed of mach 1.8 at service ceiling,which incidentally is also the same as that of RAFALE.

So what I wanted to stress was that overall flight profile is more important than top speeds at service ceiling.

Because even the swiss airforce arrived at the same conclusion, that is the overall flight profile is more important than topspeeds at service ceiling.And they too gave higher marks to rafale than typhoon in this area , and if it is not for the price they would have chosen RAFALE over grippen .

Close to 90 percent of the time fighters fly at transsonic speeds only(0.8 mach to 1.2 mach,which is what most delta wing forms excel in handling with least drag ) and they accelerate to top speeds only while firing BVRs to add some range .You cannot out run a long range BVR by flying 0.2 mach faster as BVR has a speed of aroung 4 plus mach.

another reason why overall flight profile is prefered over fancy top speed is no fighter can maneuver efficiently at it's top speed. SO if you want to dodge a missile maneuvering with agility takes precedence over fancy top speeds which are not so maneuverable.Also higher STR wont help to dodge a missile because missile has 50 g plus turn specs.

What is more important is higher ITR which help the fighter to try sharp turns to shake off the missile,which is the strong point of low wing loading deltas. But I dont mean to say that by using this tejas will dodge all the missiles and JF-17 wont. It is what today's trend is. That's why you have lower wing loading deltas like typhoon , grippen, rafales are adopting this design.Just compare the wing loading of PAKFA with SU-30 and you will get some idea.


That is where tejas will score over jags and migs , because relaxed static stability fly by wire tech will give tejas a significant edge over there. However much you upgrade them you cannot change it into fully relaxed static stability air frame like tejas.There in lies the modernity of tejas, not just fancy top speeds and higher STRs, which can be improved by having a more powerful engine during first engine change.

That is why the test pilot SUNNET KRISHNA says , "that TEJAS is ours and it is modularly upgradable.

That is why the development validation and testing is taking long while conventional stable air frames like JF-17 was quick off the block.If you compare the time frame of tejas with typhoon and rafale you can notice despite decades of experience these programs too took long time to mature.

Because it is the computer that controls the actuators while taking directions from pilot. So each flight profile must be painstakingly validated because the fly by wire software adjusts control surfaces 10 to 12 times a second.

The fly by wire tech has been exported to airbus industries by india .It's writing ,evaluation,validation , and finessing will take years, for every fighter program,so there is no getting away from it.

Even if you don't take into account ASR spec rivisions that tejas has to undergo , with funding for TD build starting at 1993 to IOC at 2013 it is quite same as typhoon and rafale.Typhoon hasn't been adopted to ground bombing till today.

If you take into account the ASR revisions and US sanctions the tejas development timeframe is not as delayed as many people imply it to be.

further reads on relaxed static stability.

[PDF]
Flying Qualities of Relaxed Static Stability Aircraft - Volume H 833 0 ...
www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA128720File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML

 

[ersakthivel]

The F-15's superior maneuverability and acceleration are achieved through high engine thrust-to-weight ratio and low wing loading. Low wing-loading (the ratio of aircraft weight to its wing area) is a vital factor in maneuverability and, combined with the high thrust-to-weight ratio, enables the aircraft to turn tightly without losing airspeed.

Weapon and Technology: TOP MODERN FIGHTER PLANES -2011
So low wing loading and high TWR are potent as a combination regardless of whether the plane is twin engined or single engined.

 

[ersakthivel]

To be a supersonic an ac has to be first aerodynamically compliant and than it shud have the trust required to get to those speeds. In case of LCA, it is aerodynamically supersonic at all altitudes but the intake size has caused the engines to under perform and increased weight had caused the ac to under perform. This issue has been resolves to some extent in LSp-7&8 and the rest of MK1 models will have better thrust levels compared with previous ac. this has been acheived by increasing airflow to the engine by use of side aux intakes like Jags in LCA.

There are some open source info like air intake is aerodynamically modified in LSP-7 along with the addition of auxilary air intake like the one on JAGUAR.It is clearly visible in the you tube film on lsp-7's maiden flight.

Is it done to improve it's top speed at service ceiling? And considering the size of the aux air intake how much performance improvement it can give in high altitude?

There is also some info like these aux intakes are spring loaded andwill open only when engine needs more air.
So in future if higher thrust engine is installed on mk-1 will these aux intakes be sufficiently enlarged to cater to the higher airflow needs?

Will it also help in increasing AOA and STR? Because increased air suction with higher thrust will be beneficial to these parameters also.What is your opinion on that?

 

[sasi]

PV2

 

[sasi]

Deleted out.