23 Pak troops killed or injured in ambush

Daredevil

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Can't you really distinguish between the civilians and the terrorists? Are you not aware of the fact that number of foreign so-called Mujahideens too died in Swat and Waziristan? Why do you pick only smaller issues and ignore the biggers facts? why can't you see the picture in a broader way?
You have to also remember why these foreign fighters are there in the first place. Pakistan has used cause of Islam to the hilt to fight against Russia previously and against India now. The foreign fighters are there to fight for the larger cause of ummah, or at least that is what they think.

I do know local civilians are too brain-washed and co-operating with militants but are you forgetting its a whole bunch of organisation having recruited peoples from Afghanistan, Kyrgystan, Uzbek, Tajik, Malaysian, indonesian and even some black africans were caught in Karachi. Haven't you witnissed the corpses of these foreign militants in Swat and Waziristan. Obviously we have no idea where people came from - apparently by using Afghan-Pakistan border........ but we are doing our best to clean this mess as soon as possible...... It won't be a bad idea if you instead of getting worrying about Pakistan concentrate on your country first
Its true that there are foreign fighters but their number is miniscule. The base that Pakistan provides as a breeding ground of terrorists is very large not just in the FATA/NWFP bad lands but also from the main land Punjab. Terrorists of all ethnic and national backgrounds are mixed up in this fight against Infidels and their lackeys. Pakistan has used most of them previously to fight soviet and now India.

PA should clean the mess irrespective of them with or against PA until then all countries will view action of PA against terrorists with suspicion.

We have already done pretty well - the problem is if we clean up the miss - indian bollywood news channels starts reporting of Genocide and if they do not clean up the mess they keep shouting of terrorism
You cannot call fight against terrorists as a genocide but what PA is doing is indiscriminate shelling of artillery against terrorists and civilians creating the problem of IDPs (internally displaced persons) to the tune of millions, in effect killing your own country men who are not at all involved in terrorism.
 

Daredevil

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& i will repeat that same thing was said before SW operation & nothing has happened, holding ground thing is been in favor of security forces for now, The target killing is a different issue, it is no way related to holding ground, even in a fantasy Taliban cannot come back in swat taking not consideration PA will be permanently stationed in swat & FC & police are becoming an effective counter insurgency force, as for suicide bombings, they are dispersed & suicide vest are not a big thing for them to manufacture, they are in pockets only, there is no 'strong hold' left, the articles are only aiming at criticizing PA for not going into NW, when there is no point in doing it for now, we won't do exactly what americans will tell us
Targetted killings is a message that Taliban are back again and it is just the beginning. This is how Taliban have occupied swat in the first place and they are just repeating the tactics.


open your eyes& go back, come back & tell me where i said Pakistan takes the credit of killing BM & hakeem, I was replying to the line which said that 'Taliban leaders have relocated'
I never accused you that you credited PA for killing of BM & HM, I only stated the fact that they were killed by drones.

Wrong, it ain't that simple, Indians must stop simplifying things, the haqqani group is getting nailed by drone attacks, I have mentioned it before as for Hekmatyar, he is only faction which is some what been talked to by US & afghan Gov, just get some Talibs on track & split them in groups, US is only apparently talking
The Haqqani group are nailed by drones because his group is against NATO but not against Pakistani Army and my statement remains the same that - Haqqani network and Gulbuddin Hekamtyar remain the lackeys of PA to be used by them when NATO vacates Afghanistan as part of so called "strategic depth"
 

DaRk WaVe

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@ Emo Girl: Its getting nauseating here, the way you are showing your premature optimism (as i said before) i have no doubt to tell you that your knowledge about Taliban's operational command and recent arrests made by your nation self proclaiming dismantle of Queta Sura [spellings] is hopeless.Are Americans negotiating with Queta sura or Rawalpindi sura? I was thinking that you are not like ''nehale te dehala'' type Pakistani member like we see in many Pakistani forums but a good debater having a sound interest in reading and analysing the facts. What ever link you are providing are readily available and are nothing but current affairs with no significance what so ever to assure anyone that your operations and recent arrests made has done some thing significant till date. If i am picking articles suggesting my POV then you are doing the same as well. However i am flexible and will see how things will take shape by the course of time and world communities (including India present in Afghanistan) will be able to get desired results from over manipulative Pakistan. But whatever is happening in your part of the world is taking toll on innocents which we have categorised as genocide cause due to your states cunning policies they are nothing but cannon fodder.
Nauseating, I told ya all on very first page, it can get dirty, what kinda links you want, first you said its all just Paki Propaganda, but now I have foreign links, you are down to negate them as well, on what basis exactly, what kinda links with 'divine truth' you want? Sorry I don't have contacts with angels

As for Quetta Shuira, there was a reason why I used word ;moderate taliban', the fact is that the some analyst have labeled Mullah Bradar as the ultimate 'moderate taliban' in Quetta Shura & that ISI was tricked by Taliban & location of Mullah was intentionally given away to ISI to remove the 'moderate dirt' from Taliban Factions, when they on the other hand don't know that the Mullah once in started singing in front of ISI's male virgins & lead to more arrests including a Shadow Governor

Captured Taliban No. 2 'Singing Like a Male Canary'


& moreover I am not simplifying & concluding things like you people, I never said that WoT has ended & that PA has gained ultimate superiority, The problem cannot be solved so early & you people are acting as if everything can be solved over night

Indian desired results are in no way converging with that Pakistan, so Pakistan will make sure India is out of our back yard

Innocents are suffering, that happens in every war, collateral damage is not a kin to genocide & i have provided the link about the damage done some pages back in Bajur Opeartion but you simply rejected the link saying it to be 'un authentic' on some unkown grounds
 
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nitesh

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Can't you really distinguish between the civilians and the terrorists? Are you not aware of the fact that number of foreign so-called Mujahideens too died in Swat and Waziristan? Why do you pick only smaller issues and ignore the biggers facts? why can't you see the picture in a broader way? I do know local civilians are too brain-washed and co-operating with militants but are you forgetting its a whole bunch of organisation having recruited peoples from Afghanistan, Kyrgystan, Uzbek, Tajik, Malaysian, indonesian and even some black africans were caught in Karachi. Haven't you witnissed the corpses of these foreign militants in Swat and Waziristan. Obviously we have no idea where people came from - apparently by using Afghan-Pakistan border........ but we are doing our best to clean this mess as soon as possible...... It won't be a bad idea if you instead of getting worrying about Pakistan concentrate on your country first
Why don't you look in to the basic issue it self which is the greediness of your organizations which provided it's people to be brainwashed in first place. It is your establishment's responsibility to think of weel being of your people not others so don't blame others for your ills. And still your army is busy killing people selectively and busy with peace agreements with terrorists. And when the topic of discussion is your country we will discuss that only don't try to derail the topic with unnecessary point


We have already done pretty well - the problem is if we clean up the miss - indian bollywood news channels starts reporting of Genocide and if they do not clean up the mess they keep shouting of terrorism
Please don't flame unnecessarily. What channels do or not has nothing to do with the topic at hand
 

DaRk WaVe

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Targetted killings is a message that Taliban are back again and it is just the beginning. This is how Taliban have occupied swat in the first place and they are just repeating the tactics.
you are a kind of decoder i think, 'they are coming back', just because they are doing some random killings in no way means they can come back, as i told ya, Army will be permanently stationed there along with FC & police, the borders of swat in no way are near the the more volatile areas, they need a big army to out number & out gun all the security apparatus that was placed there after operation, how they got hold of swat previously is a completely differnt story, there was not an effective police to counter the insurgents nor were they trained for it & moreover they had some local support which was because initially people were of view that Taliban can in valley can be brought to path of non violence but all failed & public PoV changed when they tried to extend to Buner, resulting in Operation



The Haqqani group are nailed by drones because his group is against NATO but not against Pakistani Army and my statement remains the same that - Haqqani network and Gulbuddin Hekamtyar remain the lackeys of PA to be used by them when NATO vacates Afghanistan as part of so called "strategic depth"
wrong, go back to page 12 second last post, I ahve explained how drones are doing good job for now & why exactly Pakistan is no more even saying a word against it, Haqqani Thugs are getting killed on regular basis, Hekmatyar group was called in Kabul to have some 'talks' & moreover the Indians are also want to use this same group for their interests in Afghanistan, this group is indeed under spotlight
 

DaRk WaVe

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PA should clean the mess irrespective of them with or against PA until then all countries will view action of PA against terrorists with suspicion.
who are you to define that?
every country is singling out the Taliban factions which are of their use, even your own country & as for suspicion, the very fact is that people have even tried to malign almost all the gains by PA one way or other so in the end we don't any one's NOC
'
 

nitesh

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wrong, go back to page 12 second last post, I ahve explained how drones are doing good job for now & why exactly Pakistan is no more even saying a word against it, Haqqani Thugs are getting killed on regular basis, Hekmatyar group was called in Kabul to have some 'talks' & moreover the Indians are also want to use this same group for their interests in Afghanistan, this group is indeed under spotlight
In effect Pakistani people are killed by Other countries or by PA which is busy killing own people which have been brainwashed by them in first place
 

DaRk WaVe

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In effect Pakistani people are killed by Other countries or by PA which is busy killing own people which have been brainwashed by them in first place
read the post on page 12 again, don't make me go in circles
 

A.V.

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let me bring a conclusion to the 15 pages of debate to which i think many would agree .....


1> 23 soldiers died fighting for their country -- TRUE its a fact and whats the conclusion death must be mourned at the human level more so for soldiers is anybody objecting to this i think nobody ....everybody expresses sorrow

2> QUESTION > could this death have been averted ? could we stop the innocents dying ? yes could have been if the past governments acted wisely and with foresight

3> why are we discussing this ? because we dont want more innocents dying anywhere today 23 tomorrow can be more so we must rise and fight the menace with true intension ..... right everybody agrees i think


so thats a simple solution to the discussion rise above this and every individual must act on a smaller level and todays misdoings are a result of our previous generations of failures what is so difficult to accept this , this kinds of incidents must now happen do not think that as human beings somebody is rejoicing at the deaths of innocents nobody is doing that but somebody must take the blame and start acting and even as i said we must also act o a personal level, demand the men in power to act , raise a voice , denounce terrorism on all forms not a particular form

thats the conclusion on this thread .... please can give closing comments after which we move on there are lots more happening around
 

ahmedsid

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AV Just summed up what every Indian or otherwise should Feel about this Incident! Death is to be mourned, but nevertheless its a tragedy that could have been averted had the previous generation showed some long term thinking!!! God Speed
 

venkat

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AV saar!! True Gandhigiri spirit!!!! I appreciate it!!!
 

nitesh

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read the post on page 12 again, don't make me go in circles
What to understand it is your own people right and US killing them with the help of PA or as they wish am I right? In effect Pakistani people are on rent to US for getting used or killed right with the support of there own institutions
 

DaRk WaVe

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1) PA is doing what it can to get rid of sums, if people don't like PA no problem, but you are no one to question the dead, soldiers deserve respect no matter which country they are from, IF don't want to say RIP then don't even try to insult them either

2)PA is no way committing genocide, collateral damage is the part of every war, you cannot eliminate it completely, it will be there no matter how care you take, non of the weapons has taliban recognition sensors nor the use of heavy weapons is akin to genocide, infact PA's model was somewhat used by ISAF in Marja & under consideration by US with the ultimate aim to minimize collateral damage

3)We are accused of making distinction b/w good & bad taliban when it has taken action against almost all factions of taliban & the other thing is that every country is singling out the faction of taliban which is suiting its interests, so no point in blaming Pakistan for singling out Taliban Groups

4)Creation of Taliban is not only because of Pak, Hillary is denying that claim

5)Success of PA is maligned by all means possible, on almost every forum, every thing is viewed suspicious

6) ISAF & US has been uptill now almost in effective in clearing their side, so they just blame Pakistan for all the ills, recent example is pressurizing Pak to go into NW, when they are themselves abandoning bases every now & then by labelling it as strategic move

7)there is a different dimension of Good n Bad Taliban which define the effectiveness of drones strike, Baitullah was allowed to get away many times even when Americans knew he was entering Afgh & ISI pin pointed his location & still Americans didnt sent many drones at that particular time, meaning at first the drones were only striking the only targets that were disturbing the American Designs & they were totally ineffective & not in interests of Pakistan, they were doing more harm than good, then suddenly from no where Hell fires sent BM to hell, there are different theories of how American Intelligence was tricked by ISI to strike the BM's location, this theory may sound weird but taking into consideration the past acts by CIA to avoid hitting BM, it has got some weight in it, any ways one way or other BM got killed, after that again there came a wave of ineffective drone strikes which were doing more harm than good but then again something terrible happened for Americans i.e a Jordanian Triple Agent Killed like 20 CIA agents in Kabul & a video came on air in which That Jordanian was seen with Hakeem Ullah Mehsud & stunningly the very next day drones struck & Hakeem Ullah was sent to hell & then came some more pin pointed Drone Strikes which killed a Shadow Governor & one Top Thug of Haqqani Group
Americans were making distinction b/w Good & Bad Taliban, there was trust defect but when the Good Taliban for Americans were found linked with that triple agent things changed, Americans & Pakistanis had trust deficit removed & suddenly all of the Taliban leaders started falling out of the sky(Mullah Bradar etc), Drones are doing the right thing for now & with deadly accuracy thats why you see nothin coming from GoP on this for now

I have backed my words with sources, you can turn the pages
 
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Daredevil

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you are a kind of decoder i think, 'they are coming back', just because they are doing some random killings in no way means they can come back, as i told ya, Army will be permanently stationed there along with FC & police, the borders of swat in no way are near the the more volatile areas, they need a big army to out number & out gun all the security apparatus that was placed there after operation, how they got hold of swat previously is a completely differnt story, there was not an effective police to counter the insurgents nor were they trained for it & moreover they had some local support which was because initially people were of view that Taliban can in valley can be brought to path of non violence but all failed & public PoV changed when they tried to extend to Buner, resulting in Operation
You have to decode based on available information and so far it indicates that TNSM are coming back and it is only a factor of time that it will be proven right. Till then, enjoy the peace in swat valley.


wrong, go back to page 12 second last post, I ahve explained how drones are doing good job for now & why exactly Pakistan is no more even saying a word against it, Haqqani Thugs are getting killed on regular basis, Hekmatyar group was called in Kabul to have some 'talks' & moreover the Indians are also want to use this same group for their interests in Afghanistan, this group is indeed under spotlight
Haqqani and Hekmatyar networks are targeted by drones not on the insistence of PA but on behest of NATO. I will believe PA when it takes on these networks on ground.

Indians talking to Afghan Taliban is all a mere conjecture by media, no statements have every come out of India.
 

Daredevil

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who are you to define that?
every country is singling out the Taliban factions which are of their use, even your own country & as for suspicion, the very fact is that people have even tried to malign almost all the gains by PA one way or other so in the end we don't any one's NOC
'
I'm not the one to define that but being from a country that is affected by terrorism perpetrated (Kabul embassy attacks) by PA backed terrorists tanzims (Hekmatyar&Haqqani groups), we expect PA to act against all forms of terrorism to prove its sincerity in this WoT, otherwise it will be viewed with suspicion as it being done now. Till then, Indians will not sympathize with PA and will always wish that PA gets destroyed, as is seen in this thread.
 

nitesh

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PA is indeed killing selectively and commiting genocide:

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect...h-waziristan-poses-a-formidable-challenge-740
Tuesday, 27 Apr, 2010

PESHAWAR: A steady escalation in attacks on security forces in South Waziristan and Mehsud tribesmen's reluctance to return home has thrown up a formidable challenge to the government to deal with militant leaders in neighbouring North Waziristan Agency — the real bastion of Tehrik-i-Taliban.
THE MEHSUD CONUNDRUM: Despite the military's overwhelming presence, Mehsud tribes have shown little inclination in returning home.

Their return, which was scheduled to start on April 15, could not take place despite prodding and pressure tactics by the administration, including the stoppage of cash assistance from March 31.

The Mehsud tribes have agreed, albeit grudgingly, after a lot of cajoling and behind-the-scene arm-twisting, to return home.
again selective killing

North Waziristan is fast becoming a whole new dilemma for Islamabad and Rawalpindi, which have so far successfully resisted pressure from Washington to launch a full-scale operation in the militant-infested region.
The government, which had entered into an understanding with the top militant commander Hafiz Gul Bahadar to stay neutral and not side with the TTP in the military operation in South Waziristan, has now begun to doubt his ability to rein in the new guests from the neighboring tribal region.
Again genocide why no operation in Punjab? why killing only pakhtuns

"The attacks are fewer in number but bigger in impact," a law enforcement official said. "They are recuperating from the initial shock. Their nexus with the Punjabi Taliban has given them greater outreach," the official said.
In effect punjabi dominated army is killing pakhtuns while they want to save there a$$ and get money

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2010\03\15\story_15-3-2010_pg7_12

The CM's appeal, asking the Taliban not to target Punjab, since both the terrorist group and the provincial government have the same views over foreign dictation has shocked many. I believe his statement will lead to further controversy and that Sindh and NWFP should have serious reservation over it. His love for Punjab cannot be doubted, but shouldn't he be making an appeal for the safety of the entire country?

one more link:

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/LD28Df04.html

Date: Apr 28, 2010

ISLAMABAD - Militants in Pakistan's North Waziristan tribal area on Tuesday issued a statement claiming that skirmishes had broken out early in the morning when the military tried to enter Miranshah, the tribal headquarters. There was no official confirmation.

The United States has placed Islamabad under intense pressure to launch an operation in North Waziristan, which it views as the command and control center of al-Qaeda and from where the powerful network of Jalaluddin and Sirajuddin Haqqani is based for its operations in Afghanistan.

Pakistan has over the past year marched into several other tribal areas to take on militants, including Swat and South Waziristan, but at present a peace agreement is in place between Taliban-led militants in North Waziristan and the military.

However, al-Qaeda linked militants have informed Asia Times Online that a battle in North Waziristan is inevitable to avenge atrocities that the militants claim the military has inflicted on children in the tribal area. The incident took place last week in a brief clash between the army and militants.

The al-Qaeda linked militants are spoiling for a fight even though the chief of the Taliban in North Waziristan, Hafiz Gul Bahadur, has said that last week's contact would not affect the ceasefire.

The militants also want to head off any attempt by the government to create a split in their ranks. In one effort, Islamabad has put in motion an operation that includes a former Iraqi intelligence official who now works for the Saudis, former officials of Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) and a former Taliban commander who was once a member of parliament.

"It is not an issue of whether the Pakistan army wants a military operation or not. The issue is related to their capacity," Muhammad Umar, a spokesman for the Pakistani Taliban in North Waziristan, told Asia Times Online in a telephone interview. Muhammad Umar is an alias for a non-Pashtun from Punjab province.

"They [the army] are already under siege in North Waziristan. Troops are sitting at checkpoints and cannot even fetch water for themselves from a nearby stream if the militants, positioned all around the mountains, open fire on them."

The situation in North Waziristan is clearly highly volatile as the militants are not united. Many, especially those allied with the predominately Pashtun Haqqani network, want to concentrate all of their efforts on Afghanistan, hence the peace accord with the army. Al-Qaeda-linked militants, including Punjabis, see the state as their enemy, in addition to the foreign forces across the border. The recent abduction of influential powerbrokers highlights the problem.

On March 25, retired squadron leader Khalid Khawaja, a former ISI official, traveled to North Waziristan to interview Sirajuddin Haqqani and Waliur Rahman Mehsud. He was accompanied by Colonel Ameer Sultan Tarrar, also a former long-time ISI official and once Pakistan's consul-general in Herat in Afghanistan. Tarrar is nicknamed "Colonel Imam" by the mujahideen as he was instrumental in helping raise the Taliban militia.

The men have not been seen since and Punjabi militants calling themselves the "Asian Tigers" said they had seized the men. Subsequently, Asia Times Online received several video clips of Khawaja speaking. (See Confessions of a Pakistani spy Asia Times Online, April 24, 2010.)

The militants believe Khawaja was a part of a joint international operation trying to isolate the al-Qaeda-linked militants.

Asia Times Online has leaned that Khawaja and Colonel Imam wanted to hammer out a formula of peaceful coexistence between militants and the military in North Waziristan, and in the broader context to seek a way for the US to withdraw from the region in such a manner that the Taliban would have a role to play in Afghanistan and Pakistan would have a friendly government in Kabul.

The initiative was stopped in its tracks with the abduction of the peacebrokers and in the video clips Khawaja, most likely under duress, spoke out against Pakistan's military establishment.

The message between the lines from the militants is that the role of the Pakistan army in Afghan affairs through any Islamist or non-Islamist cadre is over; that is, the war is exclusively between the West and Muslim militants, and no "referee" is required.

Two sides of the story

Khawaja was retired from the air force in the late 1980s after he wrote a letter to the then-president, General Zia ul-Haq, in which he called him a hypocrite for not enforcing Islam in Pakistan. He then went to Afghanistan and fought alongside Osama bin Laden. He was a recruiter and trainer of Pakistani fighters for the resistance against the Soviets.

After his forced retirement, Khawaja was active in politics, from trying to stitch together an Islamic election alliance in 1988 against the Pakistan People's Party's government to the so-called Operation Khilafat, an alleged plot of some military officers and jihadis to stage an Islamic revolution in Pakistan in the mid-1990s.:) Khawaja and former US Central Intelligence Agency director James Woolsey worked unsuccessfully after the September 11, 2001, attacks on the US to prevent the invasion of Afghanistan.

Khawaja tricked a radical cleric into being arrested during the crackdown on the Taliban-sympathetic Lal Masjid (Red Mosque) in the capital, Islamabad, in mid-2007. Yet he has been active in providing support to the families of members of al-Qaeda who have been arrested or killed. Earlier this year he filed a case that prevented captured Taliban commander Mullah Abdul Ghani Baradar from being handed over to the Americans or the Afghan government.

Depending on the issue, Khawaja is clearly not afraid to act in the establishment's interests, or against them, and he is equally comfortable speaking to Americans or with the ISI.

Along with an American friend, Mansoor Ejaz, who was close to right-wing Republicans, Khawaja worked on a project for peace in South Asia. In this regard he gave a detailed interview to Asia Times Online to promote his theme that the international proxy war in the region should be stopped. (See The pawns who pay as powers play June 22, 2005.)

Before his ill-fated trip to North Waziristan, Khawaja spoke to Asia Times Online, saying that a few veterans of the Afghan jihad (against the Soviets) were now coming together.

"It would be premature to tell you the details, but I will soon give you a breaking story about a mechanism under which these suicide attacks in Pakistan will be stopped completely," Khawaja said. He also pointed to the involvement of a renowned Arab, Mehmud al-Samarai, earlier wanted by the Americans for financing militants in Iraq but now known to be helping Saudi Arabia's peace efforts in Afghanistan.

Pakistani Taliban spokesman Umar gave his version of Khawaja's trip to North Waziristan.

"Khalid Khawaja, Colonel Imam and a [former] Iraqi intelligence agent [Mehmud al-Samarai] and Shah Abdul Aziz [a commander during the Taliban regime and a former member of parliament] visited North Waziristan about a month and a half ago. They were all old mujahids who fought against the Russians, therefore they were all treated with respect. However, everybody noticed their suspicious activities," Muhammad Umar told ATol.

"They met the chief of the Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan [Pakistani Taliban] Hakeemullah Mehsud, Mufti Waliur Rahman Mehsud [chief of the Taliban in South Waziristan] and the Khalifa Sahib [Sirajuddin Haqqani]. Khawaja brought with him a list of 14 commanders and he tried to convince Hakeemullah Mehsud and Waliur Rahman Mehsud that all those commanders, including Qari Zafar [a leader of the Pakistani militant group Lashkar-e-Jhangvi] and others are Indian plants among the mujahideen and the Taliban should get rid of them. Both Hakeemullah and Waliur Rahman were tolerant of those allegations against their own commanders and they were silent. However, these people did some other things which made them suspicious," Umar said.

"They tried to convince Hakeemullah Mehsud and Waliur Rahman Mehsud to stop attacking the Pakistan army and discussed a mechanism to target NATO [North Atlantic Treaty Organization] supply lines only. They offered to help Hakeemullah set up pockets in different parts of the country from where they could attack NATO supplies going to Afghanistan.

"Shah Abdul Aziz was then spotted asking people the names of the militants who [last December] attacked the Parade Lane Mosque in Rawalpindi [several army officers were massacred along with 17 of their children]. At the same time, the visiting group met with Khalifa Sahib and urged him to keep his connection with the army. They asked him what kind of weapons he required and they would arrange it for him," Umar said.

Umar said that during Khawaja's first visit, he used Mufti Mehsud's four-wheel drive vehicle. A few days after Khawaja and the others returned to Islamabad, the same vehicle was hit by a drone.

"You know that the Pakistan army aims to keep the Taliban divided as good and bad Taliban. The Afghan Taliban are good for them and the Pakistani Taliban are bad. We don't have such distinctions. If we get proof that a person has a connection with the ISI, whether he is bad or good, he is an enemy. As far as Khawaja is concerned, he confessed that he was sent by an ISI officer. We have reports that he frequently meets with the CIA and arranges meetings of other people with the CIA in return for money," Umar said.


"Khawaja and the others left North Waziristan with assurances that he would soon come back with a British journalist. We all compared notes and concluded that he had come with an agenda and he would come back again. As was expected, he came back and we caught him immediately. The journalist he brought with him also worked for the ISPR [Inter-Services Public Relations) for documentary-making projects. Therefore, they were all the Pakistan army's assets and our enemies and they will be dealt with according to their crimes. It has been decided," Umar said.

The Pakistan army, the Americans and the militants each have their own plans, and they are all at a critical juncture.

Pakistan's military anticipated that the US would be defeated in Afghanistan and therefore there was no need to wage all-out war in the Pakistani tribal areas. Rather, they wanted to keep operations at a level where hostilities would remain minimal and once the Americans left, Pakistan and the militants would restore their traditional strategic relations.

"That illusion went away under General Kiani's command," a senior US official told Asia Times Online in reference to Pakistani army chief General Ashfaq Pervez Kiani.

"The militants showed so much hostility that the military had to wage an all-out war against them. However, the situation in North Waziristan terrifies them [the army]. Sirajuddin Haqqani has a strong 4,000 armed militia [besides Hafiz Gul Bahadur's men, al-Qaeda, Uzbeks, Chechens and other militias]. The army thinks that if they launch an operation in North Waziristan, the militants will occupy South Waziristan again and the military will be unable to fight them," the official said.

However, the Americans aim to provide full support through their unmanned drones, which target militant leaders, as they have been doing for some while. The aim is to eliminate the major Taliban networks and support bases and then make preparations for a US withdrawal from the region.

However, as illustrated by the Khawaja case, sections of the militants are in no mood to talk, other than through the barrels of their guns.

Syed Saleem Shahzad is Asia Times Online's Pakistan Bureau Chief. He is writing an exclusive account of al-Qaeda's strategy and ideology in an upcoming book 9/11 and beyond: The One Thousand and One Night Tales of al-Qaeda. He can be reached at [email protected]

(Copyright 2010 Asia Times Online (Holdings) Ltd. All rights reserved. Please contact us about sales, syndication and republishing.)
 

Daredevil

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1) PA is doing what it can to get rid of sums, if people don't like PA no problem, but you are no one to question the dead, soldiers deserve respect no matter which country they are from, IF don't want to say RIP then don't even try to insult them either
I think no one (not at least me) is trying to insult the death of soldiers but are mocking the PA for landing in such a situation.

2)PA is no way committing genocide, collateral damage is the part of every war, you cannot eliminate it completely, it will be there no matter how care you take, non of the weapons has taliban recognition sensors nor the use of heavy weapons is akin to genocide, infact PA's model was somewhat used by ISAF in Marja & under consideration by US with the ultimate aim to minimize collateral damage
Collateral damage is accepted but million of IDPs and refugees wherever PA goes for offense is definitely not collateral damage, it is called indiscriminate firing and killing of people.

3)We are accused of making distinction b/w good & bad taliban when it has taken action against almost all factions of taliban & the other thing is that every country is singling out the faction of taliban which is suiting its interests, so no point in blaming Pakistan for singling out Taliban Groups
Blatant lie. There was always a distinction made by PA. No action was taken against the Good taliban - Quetta Shura, Gulbuddin Hekmatyar Network, Haqqani network while action was taken against Pakistani taliban - TTP, TNSM etc.

A year back PA claimed that there is no quetta shura in Pakistan but suddenly they arrest number 2 of Mullah Baradar just when they want to make peace with NATO.

4)Creation of Taliban is not only because of Pak, Hillary is denying that claim
Taliban is an offshoot of Mujahideen, who fought the Soviet, created by PA to do a proxy rule of Afghanistan. If US was involved in creation of Taliban why did it not recognize Taliban govt. USA may be a factor in forming of Taliban but definitely not their creators. Taliban created by Pakistan and its government was recognized by Pakistan. That tell the story.

5)Success of PA is maligned by all means possible, on almost every forum, every thing is viewed suspicious
That is because no body believes in the claims of ISPR and its killing of Taliban leaders and due to past association of PA in supporting and nurturing them.

6) ISAF & US has been uptill now almost in effective in clearing their side, so they just blame Pakistan for all the ills, recent example is pressurizing Pak to go into NW, when they are themselves abandoning bases every now & then by labelling it as strategic move
It is simply because the PA side of Af-Pak border served as a haven for terrorist groups attacking the NATO in Afghanistan. Mushrraf made it haven to these terrorist groups by making peace deals and not taking action against them keeping strategic depth (in Afghanistan) in mind.


7)there is a different dimension of Good n Bad Taliban which define the effectiveness of drones strike, Baitullah was allowed to get away many times even when Americans knew he was entering Afgh & ISI pin pointed his location & still Americans didnt sent many drones at that particular time, meaning at first the drones were only striking the only targets that were disturbing the American Designs & they were totally ineffective & not in interests of Pakistan, they were doing more harm than good, then suddenly from no where Hell fires sent BM to hell, there are different theories of how American Intelligence was tricked by ISI to strike the BM's location, this theory may sound weird but taking into consideration the past acts by CIA to avoid hitting BM, it has got some weight in it, any ways one way or other BM got killed, after that again there came a wave of ineffective drone strikes which were doing more harm than good but then again something terrible happened for Americans i.e a Jordanian Triple Agent Killed like 20 CIA agents in Kabul & a video came on air in which That Jordanian was seen with Hakeem Ullah Mehsud & stunningly the very next day drones struck & Hakeem Ullah was sent to hell & then came some more pin pointed Drone Strikes which killed a Shadow Governor & one Top Thug of Haqqani Group
Americans were making distinction b/w Good & Bad Taliban, there was trust defect but when the Good Taliban for Americans were found linked with that triple agent things changed, Americans & Pakistanis had trust deficit removed & suddenly all of the Taliban leaders started falling out of the sky(Mullah Bradar etc), Drones are doing the right thing for now & with deadly accuracy thats why you see nothin coming from GoP on this for now
More conjecture. Thank the drones for doing PA's job otherwise it wouldn't have done on its own.
 

DaRk WaVe

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No action was taken against the Good taliban - Quetta Shura, Gulbuddin Hekmatyar Network, Haqqani network while action was taken against Pakistani taliban - TTP, TNSM etc.
now stop it again, past is past, if you would, its difficult to trace all of them & stop down playing the elimination of Quetta Shura, CIA was talking more than doing something, Hekmayar story is different, PA is in no position to go in NW for now so Haqqani is getting screwed from air, US needs to reciprocate & do something from their side as well, ISAF needs to prove its effectivness on other side of border, moreover you cannot take on all groups simultaneously....


In a report to Congress released on Wednesday, the Pentagon estimated that about 140,000 Pakistani troops were taking part in offensives against militants in the semi-autonomous tribal regions, known as the Federally Administered Tribal Areas, or FATA, and the Northwest Frontier Province, near Afghanistan.

The Pentagon, which had long pressed the Pakistanis to take on Taliban and al Qaeda leaders on their territory, said the recent military deployments were the biggest in the country's history on the western border.

To carry it out, Pakistan has shifted more than 100,000 troops from the eastern border with India, according to the report. "This unprecedented deployment and thinning of the lines against India indicates that Islamabad has acknowledged its domestic insurgent threat," the Pentagon said.

The Pentagon issued the report one day before the prime ministers of India and Pakistan are due to hold their first meeting in nine months. Washington has sought to improve frayed ties between the South Asian rivals, who have fought three wars since their independence from Britain in 1947.

In the report, the Pentagon said Pakistani military operations in the FATA and the Waziristans have had an impact across the border, placing a "high degree of pressure on enemy forces and reduced insurgent safe haven" in eastern Afghanistan.


Recent arrests by Pakistan of Afghan Taliban leaders, including the group's No. 2, Mullah Abdul Ghani Baradar, have "increased insurgent leaders' concern over the security of their safe havens" and created "financial and logistical" problems, it said.

A senior U.S. defence official said the arrests in Pakistan had produced "a lot of concerned chatter" among Taliban sympathizers in Afghanistan, but added, "I've not seen anything to indicate ... that there is a leadership crisis in the Taliban."

The Pentagon said Islamabad's crackdown had thus far "focussed almost exclusively on internal threats."

"While this evolving approach is unlikely to have significant impact on the Afghan insurgency in the short term, it offers opportunities in coming months to have a greater impact on the conflict in Afghanistan depending on how PAKMIL (Pakistani military) operations evolve," the report said.

More conjecture. Thank the drones for doing PA's job otherwise it wouldn't have done on its own.
Who provided intelligence? right now TTP is as anti american as anti pak that is why Americans are killing them(Jordanian Triple Agent)

as for NW's volatile situation, it seems PA is thinking about it, there's been Troop movement from Indian Border

'Pak moves 100,000 troops from border with India'
 
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Daredevil

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now stop it again, past is past, if you would, its difficult to trace all of them & stop down playing the elimination of Quetta Shura, CIA was talking more than doing something, Hekmayar story is different, PA is in no position to go in NW for now so Haqqani is getting screwed from air, US needs to reciprocate & do something from their side as well, ISAF needs to prove its effectivness on other side of border, moreover you cannot take on all groups simultaneously....
As I said, I will believe PA when it takes actions against the so called good Taliban until then suspicion remains. My hunch says that there will never be an offense in North Waziristan, even if there is one it will be a token measure.

Who provided intelligence? right now TTP is as anti american as anti pak that is why Americans are killing them(Jordanian Triple Agent)

as for NW's volatile situation, it seems PA is thinking about it, there's been Troop movement from Indian Border
CIA has its own moles. There were many reports that the people in ISI has tipped off many a jihadists about the impending attacks from NATO or drones in the past that NATO has stopped sharing intelligence with Pakistan. Even in the case of drone attacks on TTP leaders one cannot say Pakistan provided the intelligence. If it indeed provided intelligence on Hakimullah Mehsud, they would have known if he was killed or not. But it seems that Pakistan is wavering in its statements, one time it says HM is dead and another time it says he is alive indicating that Pakistan's intelligence is weak in the badlands. Nothing that comes out of Pakistan is obviously not believable and viewed with suspicion.

Good if PA moves its troops and carry out offense in NW against all terrorist tanzims without discrimination.
 

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