Stumpp Schuele & Somappa Defence LTD

[ezsasa]

Current ones are imported then. US or Germany ? I remember their early models having Schmidt and Bender optics. What do the current guns use ?

We have almost everything needed except for eye and ear protection and side arms. This company I just posted about said on twitter they are working on making Quarter zip combat T-shirts.

Current scopes are mostly from BEL & OFB, because INSAS and Ak types didn’t have picatinny rails.

Adoption of Picatinny rails mostly started only after 2014 in regular infantry.

 

[Gautam Sarkar]

Current scopes are mostly from BEL & OFB, because INSAS and Ak types didn’t have picatinny rails.

Adoption of Picatinny rails mostly started only after 2014 in regular infantry.

I meant the current scopes on the SS Defence sniper rifles. Any idea who makes them ?

 

[ezsasa]

I meant the current scopes on the SS Defence sniper rifles. Any idea who makes them ?

Maybe @padmaraj can answer...........

 

[Spindrift]

If the government does ease the restrictions on the private firearms ownership then in the long run it would become difficult for all the private small arms manufacturer in India to sustain operations.

 

[samsaptaka]

Just a thought:

I think in 2020 we almost have an entire ensemble to kit an infantry soldier except for a few things, from private domestic defence OEM.

-MKU BP helmets
-Tonbo helmet sights
-SSS rifle
-MKU BPJ
-Tonbo Long range sights
-L&T/TATA SDR infantry comms(needs confirmation)
-Tonbo scopes
-SSS Sniper rifle
-Small arms Ammunition(not yet I think)
-Combat boots(not yet,no new indian innovation)
-bayonets
-9mm pistol(not yet)
-wildcraft rucksack
-Combat Headphones (not yet)
-Combat eye gear(not yet)

Others can add I missed something.

I think tonbo does night vision goggles too.
Excellent list ! Now if only the asses in MoD thought the same way as well as the army top brass, this list would have been a reality !

 

[Holy Triad]

Getting you an inspiring story of a young bunch of engineers with Xarpie Labs who have developed a simulation package for #snipper rifles. Their product will be out on display for the first time at #DefExpo2020. Stay tuned for more.
@akananth

 

[Spindrift]

Does anyone know how much will they (SSS Defence) be selling the sniper rifle for?

 

[Johny_Baba]

Normally i don't like to play @south block er..Devil's Advocate :biggrin2: , but this time i think i need to...

As Defense Expo 2-20 is coming and some big claims have been made about Stumpp Schuele Somappa bringing THEIR products in exhibition at there,i need clarifications regarding @padmaraj 's past claims on some things (assuming He has some connections with the company as he's the one who introduced the company,its products to us and put these claims on some threads here on the forum),

This is a full upgrade kit manufactured by a company out of Bangalore for the SF.

The muzzle device is visible. It also has new sights.View attachment 28826

View attachment 28829 Deep upgrade with all elements including a proprietry grande launcher
On the lower picatinny.

View attachment 28862 This is the sight they are using as a part of the upgrade process for the side folding Burt stock model

Starting with this picture (i've rotated it horizontaly and put my own pointers on it) that was posted by Padmaraj on starting of the thread

The upgrade kit that they've claimed to have made themselves is actually amreeki one made by Texas Instruments named 'DOG railed handguards and dust cover',a combo pack for AK pattern firearms like this Zastava Z-PAP (civilian variant of military rifle Zastava M70B1)

sources for both - http://www.texasweaponsystems.com/category-s/1879.htm
- http://www.texasweaponsystems.com/category-s/1880.htm

You can see same kit being installed on other AK variants in pics posted by Padmaraj on quoted posts above,as for the 'birdcage' style muzzle brake and flip-up backup iron sights,all these maal are easily awailable from many western manufacturers of these things so i am skeptical at there,too.

Oh,and this "proprietry grande launcher" from third quote (also refer to the image) seems LMT (their partner company from amreeka,Lewis Machine and Tool Company) made grenade launcher to me,which in turn is their short barreled version of famous M203 grenade launcher

compare the one in pic with this one from LMT - https://lmtdefense.com/firearms/l2x

also compare the buttstock posted in same upgrade kit with this - https://lmtdefense.com/parts/l7la2ba

Finally i checked website of SSS to see if they have all these ;upgrade kits; listed on their websites like these original manufactuers from west,the answer was No.

^Due to the things i saw i am skeptical about them being original manufacturers of the kits,or just doing 'screwdrivergiri' as we all call it here in name of calling it all 'indigeneous' (in terms of the Devil himself er...South Block :biggrin2:, selling cheetos)

 

[Johny_Baba]

(continuation of the post above)

Moving towards various upgrade kits for SVD (Dragunov Sniper Rifle) for the Indian Armed Forces,various pictures were posted by @padmaraj of upgraded SVDs with very similar kits with usual New Muzzle Brake, Railed Handguards ,Modular Buttstocks and Railed Dust Covers Combos , Rail-Mounted Folding Bipod - - all these things are easily available from western manufacturers in international market,

again,skeptical here if it's really 'indigeneous' or just 'selling cheetos' due to my findings of my post above in this thread,

then these posts

Stumpp Scheule Defence 7.62/39
Undergoing testing.View attachment 39098

The barrel freefloats,
The magazine and trigger group is integrated like in SCAR. It’s a short stroke piston will full picatinny top and
Bottom rail:

preety impressive,,i must say,

though due to my skepticism arosen by my findings in first post,i am still not ready to believe if it's true indigeneous effort to manufacture an assault rifle here or just another 'cheeto' because same western manufacturers sell full weapons upgrade package there which can turn some basic rifle like this SKS

to this

this thing = sks action painted black + all other parts are aftermarket,from the chassy/receiver to magazine (it's AR mag modified to take 20 rounds of 7.62 x 39mm) to gas system and so) + trigger group is AR-esque too and so

but at 'heart' it is still an sks

^So again,the rifle in pic in quote seems some sort of very similar package which is inspired from Galil ACE with a new gas system on it for regular AK,from west as well ?

 

[Johny_Baba]

(continuation of the post above)

The only product which SSS has publically revealed and that is there on their website as well is their bolt action rifles VIPER and SABER,both are impressive like their Short Stroke AK rifle,perhaps more than that as these are first privately manufactured rifles in India chambered in 7.62 NATO and .338 Lapua Magnum respectively.

and yet,due to skeptism from beginning,i am wondering if these SSS "made" rifles really are from SKS or actually 'cheetos'

as indeed western manufacturers are making virtually everything there that can upgrade a basic bolt action rifle like this lee-enfield

to something like this

^a lee-enfield upgraded with replacement barrel and a modular rifle chassy and other things

- so WHAT IF even rifles brandised by the company are not actually indigeneous but merely 'cheetos' from west ?

^^^all these things raise a lot of doubts in my minds regarding claims made by the company,calling it all 'indigeneous efforts' from very beginning,mainly due to what i am able to find from internet regarding first 'upgrade kit' for AK and equating many things from western market of small arms to the products of the company.

And no,i would not have minded it all whether it is indigeneous or simple 'cheetos' as ultimately it is benefiting our boys in uniforms , but i do think the company is not being honest with their approach ,or simply being too secretive regarding their achivements.

Comparing it all with Punj Lloyd Rakshak,they openly have accepted joint venture with IWI and is a genuine ;screwdrivergiri; from very start and even they are not shying away from it and i appreciate it wholeheartly,unfortunately i am not able to express same feelings towards SSS due to many doubts regarding their claims of indegeniouty and comparisons made with western markets of these products.

So coming back to my main topic,

I really hope to see and hear some HONEST things regarding company's products reveals in upcoming Defense Expo 2020 which would be resolving many if not all my doubts regarding the company's claims and outputs in terms of products (without raising further such doubts,of course).

 

[samsaptaka]

Fantastic research ! Hope you can gather more info regarding their 'indigenous' sniper rifle also.

 

[Shaitan]

===========================================

 

[Kchontha]

How do ya define indigenous products?!

 

[Bleh]

I wish OFB did some screwdriver-giri, instead of trying to make every screw themselves... then their mediocre guns would atleast get suppressor, p-rail, ergonomic grip/guard, adjustable buttstock & cheekrest.
Only private partners who'd push for export market can expose their products to much needed competititon.

Indian Army won't ask for these on their own, forget doing so beforehand. Those geniuses try to buy Ak-103 until Ak-203 is offered. It was like feeding a kitten with cold, eyes & nose sealed shut.

If you put the food before of her, she'll sit on the plate. You have to hold her neck & shove her face on it for her to get the cue.

 

[kr9]

How do ya define indigenous products?!

By their attributes during war time. Below are the 2 levels (definitions) of indigenization:--

Level 1 (ad hoc):
The product and subsystems must be manufactured on Indian soil using native raw materials; even if an Indian company does not own the technology or the factories, we should be able to force them to mass produce, service and replace it during war even if under sanctions and against the will of foreign OEM(s).

Eg 1:- During wartime, hypothetically, Russia asks to halts production of AK 203 in India. But we force the factories to continue the production and service.
Eg 2:--Without a substitute for Rhenium we cannot achieve level 1 indigenization on modern jet engines (even those manufactured here) because we will be dependent on others for this raw material.

Level 2:
We control manufacture, upgrade and export; thus influencing foreign wars with our own sanctions.

 

[Suryavanshi]

^^^all these things raise a lot of doubts in my minds regarding claims made by the company,calling it all 'indigeneous efforts' from very beginning,mainly due to what i am able to find from internet regarding first 'upgrade kit' for AK and equating many things from western market of small arms to the products of the company.

And no,i would not have minded it all whether it is indigeneous or simple 'cheetos' as ultimately it is benefiting our boys in uniforms , but i do think the company is not being honest with their approach ,or simply being too secretive regarding their achivements.

Comparing it all with Punj Lloyd Rakshak,they openly have accepted joint venture with IWI and is a genuine ;screwdrivergiri; from very start and even they are not shying away from it and i appreciate it wholeheartly,unfortunately i am not able to express same feelings towards SSS due to many doubts regarding their claims of indegeniouty and comparisons made with western markets of these products.

What we are looking for is the level of Indigenous content offered by this company.

We might we looking at an actual cheetos seller here.

Now the core of a gun is the barrel, Trigger mechanism, gas transmission, gun housing and bolt rest all are secondary and are easy to develope.

Now when it comes to gun barrel it requires precision and metallurgy.
We already make gun grade steel so they most likley sourced the metal from the same place OFB gets its steel from.
Tho depending upon the climate and place of operation some Metallaurgical parameters may be altered to optimize gun performance.
For instance guns made in Europe will be different from guns made in US, as they use different grade of Steel.

Next is drilling the hole.
This requires extreme precision otherwise even rag tag Afghan make guns in huts but that will differ a lot from a gun made in Factories in terms of quality.

For it machine like this are used.

For more info check this site.

https://www.unisig.com/products-and-technology/machines/find-a-machine/by-industry/firearms/

I wonder if they have bought these machine, a downgraded version of this is in our college and that alone costs around 30 to 50 lakhs.


Next up is designing the grooves

After bullet the power, speed and stability of the gun depends upon Grooving.

U have to consider a lot of factors here. The amount of rifling land, the swirl degree of groove and after processing.

The differnce between a gun made by Afghan and that made by sig is like that of Adidas and Abibas

 

[rone]

What we saw was not 100% indigenous or 100% OEM rebranding, what they doing is proxy selling, in details what they do they take 2 or 3 good samples from chetos sellers products and reverse engineer them when they got contract for specific product they mass produce them, for public show and PR they use the chetos seller products and claim its their product, but once contract signed their reverse engineered product start to mass produce, bml and bel do this starr every time most of our so called indigenous radars are just asmbled from thales radar's parts after significant order these parts get 100% indignation, becoz without sure contract's spending million's on these Tech's make them file bankruptcy,

 

[fire starter]

What we are looking for is the level of Indigenous content offered by this company.

We might we looking at an actual cheetos seller here.

Now the core of a gun is the barrel, Trigger mechanism, gas transmission, gun housing and bolt rest all are secondary and are easy to develope.

Now when it comes to gun barrel it requires precision and metallurgy.
We already make gun grade steel so they most likley sourced the metal from the same place OFB gets its steel from.
Tho depending upon the climate and place of operation some Metallaurgical parameters may be altered to optimize gun performance.
For instance guns made in Europe will be different from guns made in US, as they use different grade of Steel.

Next is drilling the hole.
This requires extreme precision otherwise even rag tag Afghan make guns in huts but that will differ a lot from a gun made in Factories in terms of quality.

For it machine like this are used.

For more info check this site.

https://www.unisig.com/products-and-technology/machines/find-a-machine/by-industry/firearms/

I wonder if they have bought these machine, a downgraded version of this is in our college and that alone costs around 30 to 50 lakhs.


Next up is designing the grooves

After bullet the power, speed and stability of the gun depends upon Grooving.

U have to consider a lot of factors here. The amount of rifling land, the swirl degree of groove and after processing.

The differnce between a gun made by Afghan and that made by sig is like that of Adidas and Abibas

can you explain what drdo ELEGANT project is

 

[Suryavanshi]

can you explain what drdo ELEGANT project is

@porky_kicker can better explain it.
.....................

 

[rone]

As you all know OFB to this day didn't make any decent looking carbine or assault rifles, did any one wonder why?

Answer is simple its bureaucracy, becoz one of college Friend use to work in a famous OFB in south India, so for him in his first year he was so eager to impress his superior,he done so many online research and come up with a decent AR type rifle design when he submitted his deagin to review it take them 3 weeks to give zeroth review just to say it's feasibility, and after one week he got the replay like every other new startup's or aspiring defence innovators get from OFB

" we are impresses with your design and its really innovative design, but unfortunately on feasibility study we found that the environment and equipment need to Carry out prototyping not present at the moment, there for we are considering you're proposal in future weapon development program's "

After this he found out the real States of pur OFB most of OFB and their management reluctant or lazy to do anything innovative they just like to do add-on or Minor upgrades to their existing design, on contrary the OFB my friend worked only make some specific ak clone and make a Minor mods to it , in his word's adding picatinny rail on to ak is considered as cutting edge, so what ever current defense startups doing 100 times better than what some of our OFB doing