PAKFA & FGFA News and Discussions

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by .v0id, Feb 12, 2009.

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  1. vijaytripoli

    vijaytripoli Regular Member

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    thanks supersallu for this good news that fpga will never be given to china( may be because china will copy of it and sell to others).
    but i heared that china is interested more inits jxx program?
    chau
     
  2. EnlightenedMonk

    EnlightenedMonk Member of The Month JULY 2009 Senior Member

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    I think what he means is that the Russians have denied to entertain that clause... Which means that the fighters CAN be sold to PLAAF in the future !!!
     
  3. SATISH

    SATISH DFI Technocrat Stars and Ambassadors

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    Well Russians are already aware of the Chinese plans. Hence they were not allowed when they asked for joint development of the PAK-FA. The PAK-FA will be available to China but only after 10 years of it's induction.
     
  4. K Factor

    K Factor A Concerned Indian Senior Member

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    Only indigenous plane China has made so far is the Xian JH-7 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xian_JH-7). Even their much hyped J-10 is a reverse engineered cross-breed between Lavi and the F-16. For that, they had Israeli engineers help them out.

    J-XX, thats fiction. Aint gonna happen in the next 10-15 years unless US/Russia help them.

    F-22: Program cost=$65 Billion
    First Flight=29 September 1990
    Introduced=15 December 2005
    Development Time (From RFP to Induction)=18 years

    Well, the PAK-FA? Seems to have come out of nowhere, and suddenly we are to have a prototype within the next 6 months. Seems that they are in a hurry to get the prototype in the air ASAP, for geo-political reasons. Maybe the engineers have a deadline from Kremlin, maybe due to possible deployment of ABMS in Poland.

    Dont mean to sound like a fan-boy, but USAF wouldn't have paid $140 Million a piece for the Raptor, if it was not worth it. PAK-FA will be 10-15 years behind F-22 in the timeline (Just like F-15 and Su-30MKI), but of comparable quality (hopefully).
     
  5. Payeng

    Payeng Daku Mongol Singh

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    Literally saying the fighter jet cannot be exported to China without India's consent.
     
  6. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    Why do Russians give their best weapons to China? There has to be more than greed behind this? they hurt themselves in the process, I hope FGFA never gets to china.
     
  7. VayuSena1

    VayuSena1 Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    If China is being considered a potential customer, then I believe that India would also likely go on the offensive by trying to bag Israeli interest in a fifth generation program. However, the information about denying the clause is something that has not been clarified. There have been a few rumours flying around, however there is no confirmation on the issue. The Indian side would have definitely considered this before signing the deal and would have worked out the clause issue.

    We are talking about a stealth fighter here capably of flying undetected into the enemy territory and take out hostile ground and aerial threats. Besides, India being a 50% partner would also mean that our side carries a significant weight. Russians may have a slightly bossy attitude when it comes to supply delays but even they know not to push a non-aligned country too far. China has nearly stopped importing Russian weaponry since they have moved towards self reliance. This leaves India as Russia's largest customer and hence both sides have to play the game with their toes in line with mutually agreed points.

    Neither can afford to stray too far.
     
  8. VayuSena1

    VayuSena1 Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    Which China is likely to reject because of their own plans to make a fifth generation fighter, namely the J-XX programme. Making such an aircraft is not a joke as this would involve in a large scale concentration of resources, money and manpower focused at one point. Even today, when the United States could not afford to handle the Raptor and JSF programmes together, I doubt that China has the capability to pull of two fighter programmes of such nature, together. I am not being an optimist here but rather trying to understand and at the same time clarify why Russia rejected Chinese bid in the PAK FA programme. If China was even being considered in the picture, it would the them who would be partnering Russians in this project instead of us. Therefore, I feel that according to what information has been given out by HAL and Sukhoi, the possibility of China as a potential client is merely a story to bring spice into the whoe PAK FA story.
     
  9. SATISH

    SATISH DFI Technocrat Stars and Ambassadors

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    The PAK-FA Thread.

    Market Trends Running Contrary to Russian Position in 5th Gen Fighter


    (Source: Forecast International; issued April 15, 2009)



    NEWTOWN, Conn. --- Russia's fifth-generation fighter, known as the PAKFA (Advanced Tactical Aviation Aircraft), has emerged as a key tool of the Russian aerospace and defense industry even before the aircraft has completed its first flight.

    Rosoboronexport has aggressively pitched component production partnerships to a number of Russia's largest arms markets in order to garner risk/cost-sharing agreements and insure continued Russian market access. However, with the PAKFA program under increasing tension and the West's major aerospace firms seeking to shore up additional orders for soon to be closed fourth-generation aircraft production lines, Russia faces the prospect of declining presence in the world's most high sought after arms markets.

    On April 13, various Russian and Brazilian press sources reported that Russia had offered Brazil the chance to opt into the PAFKA program as a component producer if it would defer placing orders with western aerospace firms and instead place firm orders for the untested PAKFA.

    This development follows reports that Russian aircraft, including the Su-35 and Su-34 were excluded from the Brazilian Air Force's (FAB) upcoming fighter tender. The FAB instead opted to select from proven fourth-generation fighters: the Boeing F-18C/D, Dassault Rafale, and Saab Gripen.

    Russia has offered similar arrangements to India and China. Only India has signed onto the PAKFA program in exchange for considerable technology transfer and industry offset contract provisions. The previous Russian offer to Chinese has since been unofficially rescinded following further allegations of Chinese copyright infringements on previous Russian fighter aircraft imports.

    Faced with the considerable research & development costs associated with developing a new, advanced fighter platform, Russia is seeking to both distribute costs and ensure that a viable export market will exist for the PAKFA. The prime contractor on the PAKFA, Sukhoi, is reported to have already invested as much as $115 million in company capital into the program. In order to recoup such investment, which represent a small portion of total sunk costs, and to bring the per unit cost of the PAKFA down to a level that will be affordable to the Russian Air Force, Rosoboronexport is aggressively seeking partners who will guarantee orders.

    Several factors are working against the Rosoboronexport's attempts replicate the international cost/production-sharing development model implemented for the F-35, which is expected to become the dominant fighter in the fifth-generation market.

    The first is the unproven status of the PAKFA. Unlike established fourth-generation fighters, the PAKFA remains untested and thus represents a major risk for potential clients. The PAKFA's initial flight has already been pushed back to late 2009.

    While the PAKFA may be technically superior to western fourth-generation aircraft and may or may not (depending on the accuracy of Russian aerospace industry official statements) be equivalent to western fifth-generation fighters, its timeline for delivery its far behind its western competitors. Deliveries of the PAKFA are not anticipated to begin until 2017.

    Finally, as production of the Eurofighter Typhoon and Lockheed Martin F-35 ramp up, the western aerospace firms currently producing advanced variants of fourth-generation aircraft are likely to push hard to gain additional order to extend production lines.

    That Brazil opted for established western-built fourth-generation aircraft over a chance to participate in the PAKFA program does note bode well for Russia's chance to gain share in the fifth-generation fighter market.

    -ends-

    http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...n-fighter.html
     
  10. SATISH

    SATISH DFI Technocrat Stars and Ambassadors

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    http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/2009/04/russian-industry-looks-beyond.html

    Russian industry looks beyond PAK-FA

    Russia's answer to the Lockheed Martin F-22 -- the Sukhoi T-50 prototype -- isn't expected to fly for several months. Conceived under the optimistically-named Promising Aircraft System for Tactical Aviation, or PAK-FA, program, the T-50 will reportedly pack F-22-like stealth, speed and advanced avionics into a similarly F-22-like large airframe.

    PAK-FA was understood to be Russia's answer to both the F-22 and the F-35, but that exclusive status may be about to change.

    Alexey Federov, the head of the United Aircraft Corporation, which is sort of like Lockheed Martin, Boeing and Northrop Grumman combined, has recently disclosed interest in building a "lightweight" fifth-generation fighter after completing the PAK-FA.

    Consider this interview with the Russian-language newspaper Vedomosti, dated 26 March:


    Q: Do we not put our position in the market in jeopardy by the end of the next decade if we have no basic fighter? The Chinese have made their own with our help.

    A: I fully agree that Russia needs a light fighter - both for the world market, and for its own air force. But due to limited resources, we first decided to concentrate on the heavy fifth-generation fighter. Incidentally, the Americans went the same way, first with the F-22. This question requires a detailed discussion with the military. I hope that we come to create the fifth-generation lightweight fighter.


    Translation by Google, with editing.
     
  11. nitesh

    nitesh Mob Control Manager Stars and Ambassadors

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    http://www.defpro.com/news/details/6842/

    Market Trends Running Contrary to Russian Position in 5th Gen Fighter

    12:01 GMT, April 17, 2009 NEWTOWN, Conn. | Russia's fifth-generation fighter, known as the PAKFA (Advanced Tactical Aviation Aircraft), has emerged as a key tool of the Russian aerospace and defense industry even before the aircraft has completed its first flight.

    Rosoboronexport has aggressively pitched component production partnerships to a number of Russia's largest arms markets in order to garner risk/cost-sharing agreements and insure continued access to the Russian market. However, with the PAKFA program under increasing tension and the West's major aerospace firms seeking to shore up additional orders for soon to be closed fourth-generation aircraft production lines, Russia faces the prospect of a declining presence in the world's most highly sought after arms markets.

    On April 13, various Russian and Brazilian media reported that Russia had offered Brazil the chance to opt into the PAFKA program as a component producer if it would defer placing orders with western aerospace firms and instead place firm orders for the untested PAKFA.

    This development follows reports that Russian aircraft, including the Su-35 and Su-34, were excluded from the Brazilian Air Force's (FAB) upcoming fighter tender. The FAB instead opted to select from proven fourth-generation fighters: the Boeing F-18C/D, Dassault Rafale and Saab Gripen.

    Russia has offered similar arrangements to India and China. Only India has signed onto the PAKFA program in exchange for considerable technology transfers and industry offset contract provisions. The previous Russian offer to China has since been unofficially rescinded following further allegations of Chinese copyright infringements on earlier Russian fighter aircraft imports.

    Faced with the considerable research & development costs associated with developing a new, advanced fighter platform, Russia is seeking to both distribute costs and ensure that a viable export market will exist for the PAKFA. The prime contractor on the PAKFA, Sukhoi is reported to have already invested as much as $115 million in company capital into the program. In order to recoup such an investment, which represents a small portion of its total investment, and to bring the per unit cost of the PAKFA down to a level that will be affordable to the Russian Air Force, Rosoboronexport is aggressively seeking partners who will guarantee orders.

    Several factors are working against Rosoboronexport's attempts to replicate the international cost/production-sharing development model implemented for the F-35, which is expected to become the dominant fighter in the fifth-generation market.

    The first is the unproven status of the PAKFA. Unlike established fourth-generation fighters, the PAKFA remains untested and thus represents a major risk for potential clients. The PAKFA's initial flight has already been pushed back to late 2009.

    While the PAKFA may be technically superior to western fourth-generation aircraft and may or may not (depending on the accuracy of Russian aerospace industry official statements) be equivalent to western fifth-generation fighters, its timeline for delivery is far behind its western competitors. Deliveries of the PAKFA are not anticipated to begin until 2017.

    Finally, as production of the Eurofighter Typhoon and Lockheed Martin F-35 ramp up, the western aerospace firms currently producing advanced variants of fourth-generation aircraft are likely to push hard to gain additional orders to extend production lines.

    That Brazil opted for established western-built fourth-generation aircraft over a chance to participate in the PAKFA program does note bode well for Russia's chance to capture a share in the fifth-generation fighter market.
     
  12. nitesh

    nitesh Mob Control Manager Stars and Ambassadors

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    http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20090421/121235891.html

    Fifth-generation fighter to be developed in joint project
    20:26 | 21/ 04/ 2009


    MOSCOW. (Ilya Kramnik, RIA Novosti military commentator) - The development of the fifth-generation jet fighter is one of the most widely discussed issues in Russia's military.

    What's more, with its potential involvement in developing the jet fighter, India, one of Russia's long-standing partners in military technical cooperation, confirms its interest in Russia's future project.

    The new jet fighter is being developed under the PAK FA (Prospective (promising) Aircraft System of the Frontline Aviation) program to replace fourth-generation models now in service in Russian and Indian air forces.

    The Soviet Union launched fifth-generation fighter programs in the 1980s. By the mid-1990s, the Mikoyan Design Bureau developed the Project 1.44 warplane, also known as the Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG MFI. The Sukhoi Design Bureau came up with the S-37 Berkut experimental supersonic forward swept-wing jet fighter. The S-37 aircraft was an advanced technology demonstration prototype not intended to be mass-produced as a fighter. However, due to the lack of funding, the Project 1.44 aircraft was not streamlined and never entered production either.

    By the late 1990s, it became apparent that existing fifth-generation fighter projects were becoming obsolete, that their production versions would be inferior to the brand new American F-22 Raptor air superiority fighter, and that even if finalized the air force would receive such warplanes a decade too late.

    As a result, in the early 2000s, the Russian Government made decision to develop an entirely new fifth-generation fighter. The Sukhoi, Mikoyan and Yakovlev Design Bureaus, all renowned for their fighters, offered several warplane versions.

    The project was eventually entrusted to Sukhoi, which refers to it internally as the T-50.

    Various maiden flight and supply deadlines were discussed from the very beginning. The T-50 was eventually scheduled to perform its first flight somewhere between 2008 and 2010. In late 2008, the commander of the Russian air force announced that the plane would first take off in August 2009.

    Mikhail Pogosyan, head of the Sukhoi Design Bureau, confirmed the information. "The progress that has been made by now suggests that we can begin the flight tests within one year," Mr Pogosyan said. Several versions of the aircraft are being discussed, including a two-seater model, and a carrier-based aircraft.

    In the summer of 2008, officials said the T-50 design had been approved and prototype aircraft blueprints sent to the Komsomolsk-on-Amur aircraft-building plant (KNAAPO) in Russia's Far East, where jet fighters will be produced. The plant is currently building three prototype T-50 fighters for future tests, due to last five to six years, while mass production will not get underway before 2015.

    Although T-50 specifications have not been disclosed, it is known that prototypes and the first production aircraft will be fitted with 117S (upgraded AL-31) turbofan engines from Russian aircraft engine manufacturer Saturn. As a result, the T-50 will be a heavy fighter with a takeoff weight of over 30 metric tons and will have the same dimensions as the well-known Sukhoi Su-27 Flanker. The Tikhomirov Institute of Instrument Design, which had developed the Irbis radar for the Su-35BM Flanker, is now working on the T-50 radar. The new fighter's radar and fire-control system will be designs on the basis of the Su-35BM's systems.

    India is reportedly more interested in the two-seater version, while Russia, with its developed ground and air fight control system, plans to concentrate on the one-seater fighter. There is a possibility that the Indian version of the Russian fighter will be lighter and smaller, and thus cheaper.

    There have been reports in the past few months about the new fighter's exterior design. Judging by photographs of the prototype available online, the T-50 will resemble the American F-22, a fact easily explained by similar parameters on their technical specifications. However, it is yet undecided whether the model will eventually be used as a prototype.

    As of now, one can only make general conclusions on what kind of a machine it will be, based on the known parameters of their technical specifications. The new fighter should be:

    - multifunctional - capable of successfully hitting air, ground and water targets alike, including small and moving ones, in any weather or time of the day, against an enemy equipped with high-precision weapons;

    - super-maneuverable - capable of performing controlled flight at low velocity and large angle of attack;

    - largely undetectable by optical, infrared or radio radars; and

    - capable of taking off and landing on short runways.


    However, the term "fifth-generation" covers more than just the fighters. It also embodies a whole range of equipment to ensure advanced combat capabilities, including weapons, radio-electronic equipment, ground- and air-based supply and control systems.

    These elements are also under development, although not all projects are proceeding with equal speed and success. Nevertheless, they are all crucial to the program as a whole. Without them, the new fighter will remain a very expensive toy incapable of boosting the combat capabilities of the air force.

    The opinions expressed in this article are the author's and do not necessarily represent those of RIA Novosti.
     
  13. bhramos

    bhramos Elite Member Elite Member

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    Fifth-generation fighter to be developed in joint project

    Fifth-generation fighter to be developed in joint project


    MOSCOW. (Ilya Kramnik, RIA Novosti military commentator) - The development of the fifth-generation jet fighter is one of the most widely discussed issues in Russia's military.

    What's more, with its potential involvement in developing the jet fighter, India, one of Russia's long-standing partners in military technical cooperation, confirms its interest in Russia's future project.

    The new jet fighter is being developed under the PAK FA (Prospective (promising) Aircraft System of the Frontline Aviation) program to replace fourth-generation models now in service in Russian and Indian air forces.

    The Soviet Union launched fifth-generation fighter programs in the 1980s. By the mid-1990s, the Mikoyan Design Bureau developed the Project 1.44 warplane, also known as the Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG MFI. The Sukhoi Design Bureau came up with the S-37 Berkut experimental supersonic forward swept-wing jet fighter. The S-37 aircraft was an advanced technology demonstration prototype not intended to be mass-produced as a fighter. However, due to the lack of funding, the Project 1.44 aircraft was not streamlined and never entered production either.

    By the late 1990s, it became apparent that existing fifth-generation fighter projects were becoming obsolete, that their production versions would be inferior to the brand new American F-22 Raptor air superiority fighter, and that even if finalized the air force would receive such warplanes a decade too late. (U.S. secret weapon: F-22-A Raptor in action. RIA Novosti video)

    As a result, in the early 2000s, the Russian Government made decision to develop an entirely new fifth-generation fighter. The Sukhoi, Mikoyan and Yakovlev Design Bureaus, all renowned for their fighters, offered several warplane versions.

    The project was eventually entrusted to Sukhoi, which refers to it internally as the T-50.

    Various maiden flight and supply deadlines were discussed from the very beginning. The T-50 was eventually scheduled to perform its first flight somewhere between 2008 and 2010. In late 2008, the commander of the Russian air force announced that the plane would first take off in August 2009.

    Mikhail Pogosyan, head of the Sukhoi Design Bureau, confirmed the information. "The progress that has been made by now suggests that we can begin the flight tests within one year," Mr Pogosyan said. Several versions of the aircraft are being discussed, including a two-seater model, and a carrier-based aircraft.

    In the summer of 2008, officials said the T-50 design had been approved and prototype aircraft blueprints sent to the Komsomolsk-on-Amur aircraft-building plant (KNAAPO) in Russia's Far East, where jet fighters will be produced. The plant is currently building three prototype T-50 fighters for future tests, due to last five to six years, while mass production will not get underway before 2015.

    Although T-50 specifications have not been disclosed, it is known that prototypes and the first production aircraft will be fitted with 117S (upgraded AL-31) turbofan engines from Russian aircraft engine manufacturer Saturn. As a result, the T-50 will be a heavy fighter with a takeoff weight of over 30 metric tons and will have the same dimensions as the well-known Sukhoi Su-27 Flanker. The Tikhomirov Institute of Instrument Design, which had developed the Irbis radar for the Su-35BM Flanker, is now working on the T-50 radar. The new fighter's radar and fire-control system will be designs on the basis of the Su-35BM's systems.

    India is reportedly more interested in the two-seater version, while Russia, with its developed ground and air fight control system, plans to concentrate on the one-seater fighter. There is a possibility that the Indian version of the Russian fighter will be lighter and smaller, and thus cheaper.

    There have been reports in the past few months about the new fighter's exterior design. Judging by photographs of the prototype available online, the T-50 will resemble the American F-22, a fact easily explained by similar parameters on their technical specifications. However, it is yet undecided whether the model will eventually be used as a prototype.

    As of now, one can only make general conclusions on what kind of a machine it will be, based on the known parameters of their technical specifications. The new fighter should be:

    - multifunctional - capable of successfully hitting air, ground and water targets alike, including small and moving ones, in any weather or time of the day, against an enemy equipped with high-precision weapons;

    - super-maneuverable - capable of performing controlled flight at low velocity and large angle of attack;

    - largely undetectable by optical, infrared or radio radars; and

    - capable of taking off and landing on short runways.

    However, the term "fifth-generation" covers more than just the fighters. It also embodies a whole range of equipment to ensure advanced combat capabilities, including weapons, radio-electronic equipment, ground- and air-based supply and control systems.

    These elements are also under development, although not all projects are proceeding with equal speed and success. Nevertheless, they are all crucial to the program as a whole. Without them, the new fighter will remain a very expensive toy incapable of boosting the combat capabilities of the air force.

    The opinions expressed in this article are the author's and do not necessarily represent those of RIA Novosti.

    RIA Novosti - Opinion & analysis - Fifth-generation fighter to be developed in joint project
     
  14. nitesh

    nitesh Mob Control Manager Stars and Ambassadors

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    Russia's first post-Soviet warplane to fly in 2009 | Reuters

     
  15. SATISH

    SATISH DFI Technocrat Stars and Ambassadors

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    I found these pics on another forum...looked cool...so i thought i would post it here...if it is against the rules mods please delete them.
     
  16. GRIM SS

    GRIM SS New Member

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    I always loved this design. Maybe what the MiG-1.44 could of been.That would've been tight ass design if Mikoyan was picked.

    [​IMG]
     
  17. SATISH

    SATISH DFI Technocrat Stars and Ambassadors

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    enjoy.....:2guns:
     
  18. SATISH

    SATISH DFI Technocrat Stars and Ambassadors

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    the new Pak fa CG..
     
  19. SATISH

    SATISH DFI Technocrat Stars and Ambassadors

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    ok i am trying it for last time...
     
  20. Daredevil

    Daredevil On Vacation! Administrator

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    Looks like a deadly beast Satish. I hope it will be something like this.
     
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