Know Your 'Rafale'

[gryphus-scarface]

Rafale A was a test bed for : numeric FBW, 30° seat, close coupled delta config, semi recessed with no moving part mach 2 air intakes, and M88. As M88 was late, it was replace by F404.
Fortunately semi recessed air intakes proved to help in RCS, was it was not the initial goal.

I'm not saying Rafale is the best in all aspect, but with it you have a very good product for all missions, at a known price (F35 sustain price is unknown for exemple).

And?
The YF-22 was a prototype for the various technologies incorporated in the F-22. Similarly the YF-16 for the F-16. The LCA PV-1 for Tejas. There have been many planes that were designed to be demonstrators.

My point is that the Rafale is a good 4.5 gen aircraft. It isn't a 5 gen aircraft. It isn't a superweapon. It has some missions which it is more suited for.

 

[Picard]

It is good when compared to 4th gen aircrafts. Intakes are oval still they will contribute in RCS as they are not designed to spread the radar waves in diff direction than the direction of origin. Acc to various researchers and designers , NO AMOUNT OF MATERIAL WILL DO GOOD IF THE SHAPE OF THE AIRCRAFT IS NOT DESIGNED STEALTHY ,and that's reason why get with more advance materials is considered inferior to f22 in stealth. Rafale intakes as well as frontal section which has exposed sensors situated will contribute to the RCS no matter how much you use materials. And thats the problem,in terrain hugging profile it's range will considerably be reduced when compared to the f35 which can fly at the altitudes without being detected . F35 also have better sensor coverage than on Rafale so it has better situational awareness than the rafale,has much advance fusion engine than any aircraft currently build and operational.

What you said about intakes is true from the side, but as I said, Rafale design - while it does have some side-RCS reduction measures - is primarily concerned with frontal RCS. And in frontal RCS, shape of the intake matter much less than shape of the air duct, shape of the intake lip and general shape of the forebody, all of which are good in reducing RCS. Below I have adressed some things which impact RCS (regardless of whether they are intended to or not).

If you look at Rafale's design more closely, you will see that its shape actually compresses radar returns into a number of "spikes" - exactly the same approach as a stealth aircraft, though number of said spikes is greater in Rafale's case (maybe). These are then suppressed by selective use of RAM and, perhaps, SPECTRA.

Sensors you note are IRST and TV camera, but there is literally no other possibility of you want to have them - unless you go F-35 route with its EOTS, but that one is a ground-attack FLIR first and foremost IIRC.

F-35 does not have much better sensor coverage than Rafale, its only advantage is DAS which consists of six IR sensors, as opposed to two fisheye sensors that Rafale has at top of the tail fin. This means that it is more precise and provides full spherical coverage.

http://www.deagel.com/news/DDM-NG-D...Situational-Awareness-Imagery_n000007243.aspx

Even if the rafale super cruises ,its weapons will be located externally which not only increases RCS but also enough drag to limit the range which everyone boasts .

Rafale actually has four low-drag missile points: two wingtip missile rails and two body points. And conformal wingtip missiles actually improve L/D ratio.

 

[Immanuel]

There is no reason to deny what you said. MKI was purchased to shoot down Puki F-16s and it finally had its chance.
How do you say the aircraft that defined 4th generation was not 4th generation? According to your definition the only F-16 that was 4th gen was the Block 50/52, that means the M2000-5 is easily 4th generation even by your own definition.
Low Observability is stealth, in both the radar and infrared. That is what the MICA IR does, it gives the ability to shoot down an F-22 at BVR ranges.

If you have a CAP patrolling the Chinese border, how do you expect it to intercept Porki aircraft in another region without supercruise?
This is like the 4th time you have claimed the Rafale cannot supercruise but the FOX 3 magazine already told you it can supercruise with a 2000 litre drop tank and several missiles. How much more proof do you need?

I don't know how you make a Su-30 LO when it has the RCS of a double-decker bus.

I told you in the post that you butcher quoted so why don't you go back and look at it.

The GOA has already called it a turd because 90% of the missions will require it to have external stores. Once you add external stores to the F-35 it is vastly inferior to Rafale in all flight regimes.

Rafale is far from LO, no aircraft that has a fuel probe sticking like a sore thumb can't be even LO. Add a couple of stores and the Rafale will be spotted by modern 4.5 gen aircraft or radar by over 80-100 km away. Spectra doesn't work against modern radars.

The Rafale won't see the F-22 when it get's it's ass shot out in BVR mode. ALR-94 can view targets out to 1000 km as well, it can play the sneaky game all day long, only turning on it's radar to take the shot in NEZ for Aim-120D.

Rafale has stores 100% of the times. DAS will spot the Rafale from well over 200 km away. The F-35 will be long gone after taking it's shot in NEZ. Keep in mind the F-35 will sport the Meteor too.

The F-35 Cockpit is better, the helmet is ages better, DAS even in current version has no equal with detection and tracking ranges of over 1000km, the APG-81 is better. In all flight regimes with a full internal load VS Rafale with equal load, the F-35 will be better.

Rafale is bloody good aircraft but Rafale will always be a 4.5 gen aircraft even after GAN and MLU. While the F-35 will move from 5 to 5.5 gen when upgrades arrive 2024. While your sorry French ass might be worried about the cost of the F-35, it doesn't bother any in the US really. The plan is funded and all the contractors have deep pockets to keep the politicians happy.

The Block 4 F-35 will essentially put most fighter competition to rest, with Meteor, Spears, JSM, SDB1/2, LJDAM, JSOW-C1, B-61- Mod 12 nuke bomb and others.

Watch as one by one it wins most Western aircraft competitions. Any serious upgrade of the F-22 will take it to 5.5 gen levels if GAN, F-35 style helmets, cockpit etc are added during MLU. Not to mention it will loose weight.

 

[gryphus-scarface]

Rafale is far from LO, no aircraft that has a fuel probe sticking like a sore thumb can't be even LO. Add a couple of stores and the Rafale will be spotted by modern 4.5 gen aircraft or radar by over 80-100 km away. Spectra doesn't work against modern radars.

The public RCS figure for Rafale is roughly 0.75 m^2. That is a pretty good RCS figure.

The Rafale won't see the F-22 when it get's it's ass shot out in BVR mode. ALR-94 can view targets out to 1000 km as well, it can play the sneaky game all day long, only turning on it's radar to take the shot in NEZ for Aim-120D.

Unfair to compare a fighter like the F-22 which is in a completely different wight class. Raptor weighs 20T empty to the Rafale's 10T empty.

Rafale has stores 100% of the times. DAS will spot the Rafale from well over 200 km away. The F-35 will be long gone after taking it's shot in NEZ. Keep in mind the F-35 will sport the Meteor too.

The F-35 Cockpit is better, the helmet is ages better, DAS even in current version has no equal with detection and tracking ranges of over 1000km, the APG-81 is better. In all flight regimes with a full internal load VS Rafale with equal load, the F-35 will be better.

Rafale is bloody good aircraft but Rafale will always be a 4.5 gen aircraft even after GAN and MLU. While the F-35 will move from 5 to 5.5 gen when upgrades arrive 2024. While your sorry French ass might be worried about the cost of the F-35, it doesn't bother any in the US really. The plan is funded and all the contractors have deep pockets to keep the politicians happy.

The Block 4 F-35 will essentially put most fighter competition to rest, with Meteor, Spears, JSM, SDB1/2, LJDAM, JSOW-C1, B-61- Mod 12 nuke bomb and others.

Watch as one by one it wins most Western aircraft competitions. Any serious upgrade of the F-22 will take it to 5.5 gen levels if GAN, F-35 style helmets, cockpit etc are added during MLU. Not to mention it will loose weight.

Agree with most of the rest

 

[Armand2REP]

Even if the rafale super cruises ,its weapons will be located externally which not only increases RCS but also enough drag to limit the range which everyone boasts .

Considering 90% of the missions the F-35 will be conducting require external stores and the fact the Rafale supercruises with a drop tank makes all the difference.

 

[Immanuel]

The public RCS figure for Rafale is roughly 0.75 m^2. That is a pretty good RCS figure.

Unfair to compare a fighter like the F-22 which is in a completely different wight class. Raptor weighs 20T empty to the Rafale's 10T empty.

Agree with most of the rest

Clean config may be, but with even a jelly donut under it's belly, it will light up like a Christmas tree. I am not the one comparing it to the likes of F-22s and F-35. In a holistic comparison, Rafale or any other 4.5 gen aircraft can't match up on many items.

 

[BON PLAN]

It is good when compared to 4th gen aircrafts. Intakes are oval still they will contribute in RCS as they are not designed to spread the radar waves in diff direction than the direction of origin. Acc to various researchers and designers , NO AMOUNT OF MATERIAL WILL DO GOOD IF THE SHAPE OF THE AIRCRAFT IS NOT DESIGNED STEALTHY ,and that's reason why get with more advance materials is considered inferior to f22 in stealth. Rafale intakes as well as frontal section which has exposed sensors situated will contribute to the RCS no matter how much you use materials. And thats the problem,in terrain hugging profile it's range will considerably be reduced when compared to the f35 which can fly at the altitudes without being detected . F35 also have better sensor coverage than on Rafale so it has better situational awareness than the rafale,has much advance fusion engine than any aircraft currently build and operational.

Look at the DSI in the air intakes of F35 : a nice and absolutely not stealth curve....

 

[BON PLAN]

The numbers of rwr antennas on rafale is clear indication that they should rather take advice which I guess they already are doing so with the f4 development . As far as the f3r is concerned ,they still don't have satisfactory coverage of rwr on rafale which can effectively filter out lpi signals in all directions ie 360 coverage.

The rwr antennae are enough to cover a 360°. sorry, Thales dont put one under the frame and up the frame because it is.... USELESS.

 

[BON PLAN]

ALR-94 can view targets out to 1000 km as well

Only if the target used its radar.

 

[BON PLAN]

Rafale is far from LO, no aircraft that has a fuel probe sticking like a sore thumb can't be even LO. Add a couple of stores and the Rafale will be spotted by modern 4.5 gen aircraft or radar by over 80-100 km away. Spectra doesn't work against modern radars.

The Rafale won't see the F-22 when it get's it's ass shot out in BVR mode. ALR-94 can view targets out to 1000 km as well, it can play the sneaky game all day long, only turning on it's radar to take the shot in NEZ for Aim-120D.

Rafale has stores 100% of the times. DAS will spot the Rafale from well over 200 km away. The F-35 will be long gone after taking it's shot in NEZ. Keep in mind the F-35 will sport the Meteor too.

The F-35 Cockpit is better, the helmet is ages better, DAS even in current version has no equal with detection and tracking ranges of over 1000km, the APG-81 is better. In all flight regimes with a full internal load VS Rafale with equal load, the F-35 will be better.

Rafale is bloody good aircraft but Rafale will always be a 4.5 gen aircraft even after GAN and MLU. While the F-35 will move from 5 to 5.5 gen when upgrades arrive 2024. While your sorry French ass might be worried about the cost of the F-35, it doesn't bother any in the US really. The plan is funded and all the contractors have deep pockets to keep the politicians happy.

The Block 4 F-35 will essentially put most fighter competition to rest, with Meteor, Spears, JSM, SDB1/2, LJDAM, JSOW-C1, B-61- Mod 12 nuke bomb and others.

Watch as one by one it wins most Western aircraft competitions. Any serious upgrade of the F-22 will take it to 5.5 gen levels if GAN, F-35 style helmets, cockpit etc are added during MLU. Not to mention it will loose weight.

Seems you were working for LM marketing office...
The sole problem is that F35 is not fully operationnal 12 years after first serial flight.
They add block after block, the latest added come new problems to the others....
It is from the very early beginning, a paper plane. Maybe in 5 years....

 

[BON PLAN]

The public RCS figure for Rafale is roughly 0.75 m^2. That is a pretty good RCS figure.

Give us just a single source, if not you are just a troll.

It is BULL SHIT.
RCS of Rafale is said to be 1/10 to 1/20 of those of Mirage 2000. Mirage 2000 RCS is around 1m². Can you calculate it or do you need some help ?

 

[BON PLAN]

Clean config may be, but with even a jelly donut under it's belly, it will light up like a Christmas tree. I am not the one comparing it to the likes of F-22s and F-35. In a holistic comparison, Rafale or any other 4.5 gen aircraft can't match up on many items.

During the last air strike conducted by US, GB and France against SYria with cruise missiles, the sole planes the russian officially said not having seen are the Rafale....

 

[Gessler]

When they say F-35 EODAS can detect signatures at 1000km, they're talking about plumes of ballistic missiles and/or space rockets. Not the exhaust of a fighter jet or air-to-air missile.

That's like saying a small hand-held IR camera has a range of 150 million kilometers just because you can see the Sun in it.

EDIT: Systems like Rafale's WSO or similar systems will have more or less similar ranges...if one is talking about similar targets. But such figure is never quoted for what is meant to be basically a MAWS....because that is simply not the purpose of said system.

Lockheed/Grumman have made a clever marketing ploy here.

 

[Armand2REP]

Rafale is far from LO, no aircraft that has a fuel probe sticking like a sore thumb can't be even LO. Add a couple of stores and the Rafale will be spotted by modern 4.5 gen aircraft or radar by over 80-100 km away. Spectra doesn't work against modern radars.

Low observable is anything less than 1m^2. The Rafale is 0.3m^2 clean, 0.5m^2 with 3X CFTs, 4X Mica, 2X Scalp. The refueling probe is angled and coated with RAM. The Rafale wouldn't be detected until 30km out by a fighter radar, a wide band radar could detect it further. Spectra works against anything that is in its threat database, it also has AI to analyze and counter any new threats.

The Rafale won't see the F-22 when it get's it's ass shot out in BVR mode. ALR-94 can view targets out to 1000 km as well, it can play the sneaky game all day long, only turning on it's radar to take the shot in NEZ for Aim-120D.

The OFS can detect an F-22 and get a kill with MICA IR out to 70km. The F-22 would be dead before Rafale appeared on his radar.

Rafale has stores 100% of the times. DAS will spot the Rafale from well over 200 km away. The F-35 will be long gone after taking it's shot in NEZ. Keep in mind the F-35 will sport the Meteor too.

The CFTs and missiles carried by Rafale are made of composites and coated in RAM. Only if it is carrying a bunch of cheap Mk 82/84 bombs with guidance kit would it not maintain LO. In the air-superiority or penetration role, it remains LO.

The F-35 Cockpit is better, the helmet is ages better, DAS even in current version has no equal with detection and tracking ranges of over 1000km, the APG-81 is better. In all flight regimes with a full internal load VS Rafale with equal load, the F-35 will be better.

The F-35 has defective software that can't keep the radar on, can't classify threats of radars or missiles, or mount data from the optronics to the display. In the meantime the Spectra of the Rafale gives the pilot full Situational Awareness of the threats around him and the means to counter.

Rafale is bloody good aircraft but Rafale will always be a 4.5 gen aircraft even after GAN and MLU. While the F-35 will move from 5 to 5.5 gen when upgrades arrive 2024. While your sorry French ass might be worried about the cost of the F-35, it doesn't bother any in the US really. The plan is funded and all the contractors have deep pockets to keep the politicians happy.

And the F-35 is a good aircraft... on paper. The software is so buggy it isn't fit for combat and spends half of its time grounded.

The Block 4 F-35 will essentially put most fighter competition to rest, with Meteor, Spears, JSM, SDB1/2, LJDAM, JSOW-C1, B-61- Mod 12 nuke bomb and others.

Governments under pressure from the US might be weak minded enough to fall for it, but luckily India is smarter than all of them.

Watch as one by one it wins most Western aircraft competitions. Any serious upgrade of the F-22 will take it to 5.5 gen levels if GAN, F-35 style helmets, cockpit etc are added during MLU. Not to mention it will loose weight.

Watch one by one they fall from the sky due to its glitchy software, it will be the next 737 MAX.

 

[gryphus-scarface]

Give us just a single source, if not you are just a troll.

It is BULL SHIT.
RCS of Rafale is said to be 1/10 to 1/20 of those of Mirage 2000. Mirage 2000 RCS is around 1m². Can you calculate it or do you need some help ?

Ok frontal RCS is 0.1 m^2. What about any other angle? And as for my claim of 0.75m^2, I've found this source saying that's Rafale RCS with 6 missiles : https://defenseissues.net/2015/11/01/dassault-rafale-vs-eurofighter-typhoon/ (see stealth section)

Most other sources agree with 1/10 to 1/20 Mirage 2000, but in what configuration of Mirage 2000? No missiles? With full combat load?

 

[gryphus-scarface]

Seems you were working for LM marketing office...
The sole problem is that F35 is not fully operationnal 12 years after first serial flight.
They add block after block, the latest added come new problems to the others....
It is from the very early beginning, a paper plane. Maybe in 5 years....

This is literally normal time it takes to develop a fighter. The Rafale first flew in in 1986. It's production variant was first tested in 1991. It's first production variants reached the French Air Force in 1997. That's 11 years.

Similarly the YF-22 flew in 1990. The F-22 first flew in 1997. FOC was achieved in 2005. same is true for the Tejas. First flew in 2001. IOC achieved in 2011. Roughly 10 years.

F-35 isn't unique in this regard. It has also achieved IOC in all variants.

The first X-35 flew in 2000. The F-35A was first flown in 2006. So its on time. Roughly 10 years.

 

[Steven Rogers]

What you said about intakes is true from the side, but as I said, Rafale design - while it does have some side-RCS reduction measures - is primarily concerned with frontal RCS. And in frontal RCS, shape of the intake matter much less than shape of the air duct, shape of the intake lip and general shape of the forebody, all of which are good in reducing RCS. Below I have adressed some things which impact RCS (regardless of whether they are intended to or not).

If you look at Rafale's design more closely, you will see that its shape actually compresses radar returns into a number of "spikes" - exactly the same approach as a stealth aircraft, though number of said spikes is greater in Rafale's case (maybe). These are then suppressed by selective use of RAM and, perhaps, SPECTRA.

Sensors you note are IRST and TV camera, but there is literally no other possibility of you want to have them - unless you go F-35 route with its EOTS, but that one is a ground-attack FLIR first and foremost IIRC.

F-35 does not have much better sensor coverage than Rafale, its only advantage is DAS which consists of six IR sensors, as opposed to two fisheye sensors that Rafale has at top of the tail fin. This means that it is more precise and provides full spherical coverage.

http://www.deagel.com/news/DDM-NG-D...Situational-Awareness-Imagery_n000007243.aspx



Rafale actually has four low-drag missile points: two wingtip missile rails and two body points. And conformal wingtip missiles actually improve L/D ratio.

You already proved my point that having more spikes(it's has the highest if it is compared with a 5th gen aircraft)even with ram treatment doesn't help if it is not concentrated in minimum possible points and thanks for pointing one more thing that it has pointed radome with circular in shape that means ,it is a good reflector of radar waves irrespective of material . F35 has better sensors which includes various antennas spread in the skin which are integrated with the main radar which not only perform radar detection but interception and jamming,eodas is a sniper pod integrated into the f35 for stealth missions and it don't contribute while like hanging outside , DAS provides the complete 360 envelop(which Rafale sensors don't since their is very limited coverage of RWR and maw),and with all these f35 has the best sensor fusion which includes collection OF ALL POSSIBLE DATA and then engine fuses that means data is collected from every possible sensor to present a much smarter view compared to rafales where data is collected to only make worth enough of tracking that means not all sensors data is used and only the best possible is selected and then fuses,developing later is easier however is time consuming in operations.

 

[Steven Rogers]

Considering 90% of the missions the F-35 will be conducting require external stores and the fact the Rafale supercruises with a drop tank makes all the difference.

That already depends upon the mission.

Look at the DSI in the air intakes of F35 : a nice and absolutely not stealth curve....

I don't think what you stated is corrected, if you're asking for the bump it is shaped to return the radar waves away and treated with ram which makes sure it's radar return even from their is maintained to only a point ,the lips of the intakes are shaped so that the direct radar contact could be concentrated towards its body and then directed away from the body.

 

[Steven Rogers]

The rwr antennae are enough to cover a 360°. sorry, Thales dont put one under the frame and up the frame because it is.... USELESS.

No it isn't ,these are the passive sensors, and an aircraft with 3-4 antennas(actually I don't have the numbers on Rafale) can be beaten up by the multiple frequencies in lpi mode with limited listeners which can't even cover the so called 360 degree envelope,which means less information from the sensors which directly affects the claimed sensor fusion which is still inferior to f35 ,and comes close enough to the f22(it has 30such antennas).

 

[Immanuel]

During the last air strike conducted by US, GB and France against SYria with cruise missiles, the sole planes the russian officially said not having seen are the Rafale....

Bunch of hot air, strange you say they didn't see the Rafale but they managed to shoot down the Storm Shadow hmmm. Also can you share some evidence for your claim.