Kaveri Engine

[Assassin 2.0]

So, after so many years of "working on its own", the solution Indian scientists come up is "teach me" how to fix metallurgy in hot sections? How do you call that "self dependent

Because there is difference with learning and copying. In copying you are just blindly following in learning you learn how to do it. We have achieved many things in jet engine technology in blades and etc it's the hot section which is the only problem. Our core is working fine. That's why india rejected M-88 core. In such a less amount of money india have achieved a lot. If government spends alone some money in time we can also fix hot section but they find forgein collaboration to fix it will be better and cheaper.

Over 200 Su-30 with AL31 in your air force, you call that "for testing"?

I was not talking about AL-31 i was talking about Russian assistance in our home grown jet engine program. We only ask them for testing equipments for high altitude test and etc.

Over 200 Su-30 with AL31 in your air force, you call that "for testing"?

Iaf was already quite irritated with Russian engines that's why we went with American one GE - 404 and GE 414. For future jets. Russian technology isn't bad or anything but it comes with it's own flaws and merits. For example it's cheaper.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

With American F414/F404 engine families set to rule the skies of India, Why India needs to have alternatives


40 Tejas Mk1 and 83 Tejas Mk1A will be powered by American developed F404-GE-IN20 after-burning engines to be followed up with F414-GE-INS6 after-burning engines which will be sourced for 200 Tejas MkII and it is also confirmed now that 40 AMCA Mk1 will also be powered by F414-GE-INS6 after-burning engines till a locally developed after-burning engine is ready for AMCA MkII. With 360+ jet to be powered by F414/F404 family engines in their lifetime whole fleet will require nearly 1300 engines and its number will only grow if India decides to stick with F414EPE engines for the AMCA MkII also. HAL plans to develop Lead-in fighter training (LIFT) based on trainer variant of the Tejas Mk1 which means more American engines. In short, IAF will have nearly 360+ jets with American developed F414/F404 family engine which will make up nearly 50% of the future IAF fleet by 2040 without even local production of spares available in India. American engines will not only dominate the Indian fighter fleet even if IAF never inducts any American fighter jet in its arsenal leaving the IAF fleet vulnerable to sanctions and restriction on the supply of spares to India in the event of the fallout of relationships with US Government. India not to be depended on American developed F414/F404 family engine will need to develop at least two engine variants that can be locally developed with a foreign aero-engine maker. India should strive to develop a de-tuned 100kN thrust class engine based on the 110kN thrust class engine which we plan to develop for the AMCA MkII program in the country. Tejas MkII and Tejas Mk1A fleet will require 3.5 engine swap for its entire flight worthy life of nearly 40 years so India will neither should upgrade the fleet of Tejas MkII and Tejas Mk1A fleet with the same 110kN thrust class engine we plan to develop for the AMCA MkII program or we can plan to develop a de-tuned variant of the same engine with lower thrust. Selection of the same 110kN thrust class engine for all three programs will mean that the production rate of the engines will be high and due to the commonality of engine among all three fighter jet fleet, logistics and maintenance of the jets at a base level will also improve considerably. India will require at least 10 years for the new engine to be ready for the production so, in next two to three years, India will need to take a call on development partner it was to choice for the new engine and also invest in the required infrastructure like flying test-bed and multiple rig and ground engine facility for the program to succeed.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

..........................

 

[Suryavanshi]

..........................

We have more than one reason to develope our Turbofan technology and aeronautics in general.
India is a big market for Aviation market which is gonna inflate even more in the future. We need to have an aerospace industry of our own to meet the needs of aircraft or otherwise imports will cost us a filthy lot of money.

There are a lot of people like Amol Yadav who have good concept but are struggling because of Red tape.

Pilot who built aircraft on rooftop signs Rs 35K-crore pact with Maha to make 1st plane factory of India
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.li...ilt-6-seater-aircraft/amp-11571650007468.html

 

[Assassin 2.0]

BIG BIG BIG UPDATE.

HAL working on afterburner module for HTFE-25 engine likely for Jaguar fleet Published November 5, 2019 | By admin SOURCE: RAUNAK KUNDE / NEWS BEAT / IDRW.ORG The Indian Air Force (IAF) has decided recently not to go with “re-engining” of its 80 aging Jaguar fighter fleet after US firm quoted an unacceptable $2.5-3 billion for taking full responsibility for installing its new F-125IN engines in 80 Jaguars, But Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) actually might be working on an alternative engine which will be able to power IAF’s Jaguar fighter fleet if its plans to develop an advanced version of the HTFE-25 (Hindustan Turbo Fan Engine) materializes soon. In March this year, HAL has taken up the design and development of ‘Afterburner Technology’ for the HTFE-25 aero engine. The afterburner module was mounted on the PTAE engine followed by a successful demonstration of the basic afterburner technology using a fixed area propelling nozzle for the HTFE-25 engine was also carried out. Jaguar’s fleet has an under-powered Rolls-Royce Adour 811 engines generating 25 kiloNewtons of dry thrust and 37.5 kN with afterburners, F-125IN selected by IAF earlier could have bumped up the power requirement to 27.7 kN of dry thrust and 43.8kN with afterburners with the new engines. HTFE-25 which is a 25 kn turbofan engine so far has completed 339 runs on Core-1 and 96 runs on the Core-2 engines 2018-19. HTFE-25 with an extra thrust of an afterburner module will be able to deliver 40.39 Kilonewtons (kN) (max afterburner) Takeoff Thrust with its dry 25 kN Takeoff Thrust which is still better than the power generated by the Rolls-Royce Adour 811 engines but slightly short of the F-125IN performance if it can generate above Takeoff Thrust . HTFE-25 can be used on Basic/ Advanced military in single-engine trainer jets, business jets and UAVs weighing up to 5 tonnes and in the twin-engine configuration for the same weighing up to 9 tonnes. Two core engines have been produced so far and are undergoing development trials.

idrw.org .Read more at India No 1 Defence News Website https://idrw.org/hal-working-on-afterburner-module-for-htfe-25-engine-likely-for-jaguar-fleet/ .

 

[suny6611]

what is the cost, weight,fuel consumption & size difference between two each of F-125IN, HTFE-25 with afterburner and Rolls-Royce Adour 811 ?

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Nicely explained why india doesn't want to go with Russia for engine development.
M-88 Axial, 3-stage LP, 6-stage HP Compression.
EJ-200 Axial, 3-stage LP, 5-stage HP
GE - 414 Compressor: axial compressor with 3 fan and 7 compressor stages
F-135 : 3-stage fan, 6-stage high-pressure compressor
AL-41S Compressor: Axial, 4 stage fan, 9 stage compressor

AL-31S Compressor: 4 fan and 9 HP compressor stages

RD-33 Compressor: 2 spool axial, 4 low pressure stages, 9 high pressure stages

WS-10 is a high power, high thrust to weight ratio and low bypass ratio engine with 12 stage structures, including a 3-level fan, nine-level stator, one-level high pressure compressor and one low pressure compressor.

GTRE KAVERI - LP compressor with 3 fan stages and transonic blading
HP compressor with 6 stages, including variable inlet guide vanes and first two stators

Higher stages = more weight. Which increase thrust to weight ratio.
Russian engines blades cannot sustain the high load that's why they need to add more stages to divide them in different parts. And they increase some thrust generated by there engine by changing some settings in compressor.
This requires extra fuel. As more stages are added more heat is generated which works quite well in Russian cold weather but in tropical regions just like in india it does not work. That great. This increase maintenance heavily for india because wear and tear is high. And THIS MAKES DIFFICULT FOR THESE ENGINES TO DO SUPER CRUISE IN HOT CLIMATE. @Armand2REP

When india went to test Su-57 found its hot core temperature pretty high which was one of the main reasons why india didn't moved ahead as izdeliey - 30 is in just developing phase.

@no smoking

 

[Armand2REP]

THIS MAKES DIFFICULT FOR THESE ENGINES TO DO SUPER CRUISE IN HOT CLIMATE. @Armand2REP

Those Russian engines never could do super cruise, they are too heavy. It is all about T2W at dry thrust and building a fighter light enough around those engines to attain SC.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Those Russian engines never could do super cruise, they are too heavy. It is all about T2W at dry thrust and building a fighter light enough around those engines to attain SC.

Heating issues too.
Russians do some tricks with there compression system tweak and there current best AL-31 & AL-41 are already at there peak KN power. There thermal capabilities are not great in Russian cold climate they can work but at the place were air is hot there thermal capabilities which are already mediocre cannot perform best in hot region at it's best. Question of super cruise cannot even arise then.
More than weight it's about thermal capabilities. AL-41S creates good thrust but as a engine it's inefficient.
It's technology is simply old.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Large Aerofoil Castings for Land-based Gas Turbine Engines

DMRL’s expertise in investment casting technology has also resulted in a civilian spin-off for the manufacture of large size blades used in land-based turbines for power generation (BHEL and NTPC). NTPC is operating several gas-based power plants in the country and the blades for gas turbine engines are being imported at high cost to replace the worn/damaged blades during the overhauling. With the help of CAD model, a wax pattern injection die has been designed and fabricated. It was quite challenging to produce a class-I casting since the individual blade is heavier (3 kg) than the Kaveri aero-engine blade (200-300 g) produced so far. However, with existing expertise of developing aero-engine blades, technical difficulties were overcome through optimisation of process parameters. One engine set, consisting of 125 numbers of IN738 alloy blades, was produced with an acceptable yield of 60 per cent and handed over to NTPC. This is an outstanding example of civilian spin-off benefit of the technology developed for defence.

Ceramic Cores for Aerofoil Castings
DMRL has developed the process technology for making highly intricate, aerofoil shaped, sintered silica cores used for the production of hollow gas turbine engine components. This is one of the critical material processing technologies in the gas turbine engine development programme. Through sustained research and development efforts, a viable process based on Ceramic Injection Moulding (CIM) has been successfully developed. The capability of the process has been demonstrated by making highly complex and intricate ceramic cores meeting stringent dimensional requirements. The process is used for making silica cores for production of turbine blades and vanes of Kaveri engine and land-based gas turbine. The process is also being adopted for preparing alumina cores required for producing single crystal aerofoil castings.

 

[assassin162]

I would suggest that Govt should go for a new engine development plan. Form a govt company with 49% govt ownership and 51% pvt ownership. The 51% should be divided between 3 to 4 companies based on their technological and commercial abilties. Like 21% for the one whose proposal is found most capable, 15% then 10% and then 5% ...... Tata, Kirloskar, L&T, Mahindra etc are some of those who can make the cut off in my eyes.
This new engine company can house a lot of capabilities that the govt has in this regard including kaveri, and its offshoots and pvt companies promised techs..... Pvt companies can help in enabling foreign consultants to work on the project both individuals and foreign companies.....

If the project is successful we may have our own indigenous Rolls Royce, Saffran or Pratt and Whitney at the end of the day.

What is your opinion guys?

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Why India will need to look beyond GE and SAFRAN for its quest for AMCA MkII Power plant

idrw.org .Read more at India No 1


TUSHKAR SHIRODKAR / FOR MY TAKE / IDRW.ORG. The India-U.S. Joint Working Group on jet engine cooperation within the framework of the Defence Technology and Trade Initiative (DTTI), has been suspended and Joint venture proposals with the French Aero-engine maker SAFRAN after years of talk has been suspended. India’s quest to jointly develop a new generation afterburning turbofan engine for its upcoming 5th generation AMCA MkII fighter program which is all set to take off officially in 2020. Delays in the selection of Joint venture partner for AMCA specific engine to power India’s first 5th generation fighter program has meant that now India has planned to use less powerful F414-GE-INS6 afterburning engines for the first two squadrons of 40 aircraft. GE Aviation and SAFRAN seem to be India’s first choice of foreign companies with whom India has carried out extensive collaboration talks for years now without any results and India simply cannot continue with talks especially when the program is about to take off officially. Years of negotiation with both the companies and it is more or less confirmed now that India can’t afford SAFRAN proposed JV offer to India and GE Aviation proposed Technology Transfer without core stage is not acceptable to the IAF top brass. Instead of India going round and round with the same set of companies, India should send a global invite to all major aero-engine makers to send their proposals for joint venture development of a new engine with minimal order guarantees to set the ball rolling again and to gather global interests. While many other Major Aero-engine companies like Rolls Royce, EuroJet Turbo GmbH consortium, NPO Saturn and Pratt & Whitney have in past offered to collaborate with India on development of new AMCA specific engine which can generate 110kn of Wet thrust class, it is not clear why such proposals were not pursued in the past and why there is lack of will also to fund GTRE to fix Kaveri engine which already is on the death bed even when it was certified by SAFRAN and cleared it for flight trials even though it doesn’t meet the wet thrust requirements of the LCA-Tejas. Many prominent aviation engineers and former employees of ISRO have written to Prime ministers minister office to re-start the Kaveri engine program with a new team and involve many prominent organizations like ISRO and Private sector companies to fund develop a new engine locally with a fresh influx of funds. Management shake-up of the GTRE has been called many times in the past but it is not GTRE which is the program but it is funding and lack of infrastructure in the country which has become the greatest hindrance to the development of the engine locally in the country. GTRE which doesn’t have a test-bed aircraft to test the Kaveri engine in the past had demanded from the Government to procure IL-76 aircraft to be used as a Test-bed aircraft to test the Kaveri engine when it was forced to go to Moscow for similar flight trials. GTRE also has requested the Government of India to buy an old Mig-29 fighter jet from the abroad so that one of its engines can be swapped with a Kaveri engine for flight trial certification. While both its demand were not accepted, GTRE is now depended on HAL to free up som old LCA-Tejas PV-2 aircraft for engine testing but many Military engine experts believe that original plane to test them on Twin engine Mig-29 with one experimental Kaveri engine along with one Klimov RD-33 engine was much safer option in case of mid-air engine failure on single-engined LCA-Tejas. 75kn wet thrust producing Kaveri engine needs to be certified for production even if it means it will not power LCA-Tejas so that it can be used on other programs like Trainer aircraft, Saras Turbojet variant, UCAV and HALE Class UAV programs in near future. Private sector companies should be allowed access to the Kaveri engine technology so that minor and major issues that keep cropping up can be fixed and resolved. If Kaveri engine powered aircraft starts flying then the confidence to build a better and improved engine for the AMCA MkII fighter program can be initiated locally. India has to decide, whether it will be ok with limited core stage transfer of technology for the new engine to power the AMCA MkII fighter program or it wants complete independence from the foreign vendor and their conditions.

idrw.org .Read more at India No 1 Defence News Website https://idrw.org/why-india-will-nee...fran-for-its-quest-for-amca-mkii-power-plant/ .

 

[no smoking]

Nicely explained why india doesn't want to go with Russia for engine development.


Russian engines blades cannot sustain the high load that's why they need to add more stages to divide them in different parts. And they increase some thrust generated by there engine by changing some settings in compressor.

This requires extra fuel. As more stages are added more heat is generated which works quite well in Russian cold weather but in tropical regions just like in india it does not work. That great. This increase maintenance heavily for india because wear and tear is high.

You still don’t get it, do you? You can only design your product based on the material and machines available to you. That is the basis for any designing work. If Russian scientists have the western standard materials, machine tools, etc, at their disposal, certainly they can adopt the same design as their western counterpart. However, the reality is Russian lags behind Nato in these area. So they have to take these weakness into their design. If you give US or French scientists the Russian industrial basis, their products’ design won’t be better than Russians either.


Now, the question is If India has better metalloy industry than Russia? No! Does India have better tooling industry than Russia? No! If India lags behind Russia in all the military related industries, why Indian scientists believe that they can use the superior design as US based on inferior technical basis. Do they think they are better those Americans and Russians on engine design?

And THIS MAKES DIFFICULT FOR THESE ENGINES TO DO SUPER CRUISE IN HOT CLIMATE. @Armand2REP

Who tells you that? Please don’t tell me you got from that joker.

When india went to test Su-57 found its hot core temperature pretty high which was one of the main reasons why india didn't moved ahead as izdeliey - 30 is in just developing phase.


@no smoking

I am not sure if you understand what you are talking about. Higher turbine entry temperature is the trend shared by every engine manufacturer. In general, the temperature of each generation is always higher than the previous one. As matter of fact, the temperature of AF-41F1 was simply not high enough, here is your list:


AL-41F 1828K

F119 1977K

M88-2 1850K

 

[Armand2REP]

why Indian scientists believe that they can use the superior design as US based on inferior technical basis. Do they think they are better those Americans and Russians on engine design?

Why do Chinese scientists believe that? You did copy F101 core right?

 

[Assassin 2.0]

You still don’t get it, do you? You can only design your product based on the material and machines available to you. That is the basis for any designing work. If Russian scientists have the western standard materials, machine tools, etc, at their disposal, certainly they can adopt the same design as their western counterpart. However, the reality is Russian lags behind Nato in these area. So they have to take these weakness into their design. If you give US or French scientists the Russian industrial basis, their products’ design won’t be better than Russians either.

I said this too you previously will say again.
There is no point in investing money in inferior technology. Russia don't have the technology to do it now. They are trying to build izedily - 30 which is in development so even they are trying to update themselves.
In Game of technology everyone invest on the latest one not on the obsolete one. After all india in 30 years back thought to build it's own core and design and knew that which technology is better.
India didn't copied Russian or American design instead of that we tried to build ours. It's true we lack in certain areas but work is still going on we have invested peanuts but results are great. India will sooner or later will have it's own engine.

Now, the question is If India has better metalloy industry than Russia? No! Does India have better tooling industry than Russia? No! If India lags behind Russia in all the military related industries, why Indian scientists believe that they can use the superior design as US based on inferior technical basis. Do they think they are better those Americans and Russians on engine design?

No one in 2019 will spend money to develop 32 bit architecture core processer.
Will they?
India is actually working on it . We need a engine which can power and can do super cruise for our 5Th generation jet if engine cannot match the requirements. then their is no point in even developing it. Why you cannot understand this even if we develop some Russian engine we will power toy train with it?
We require what we require simple.

Russia simply don't have the technology which we seek that's why india is running around French US UK anyone. Russians themselves need to invest and create it. And this is the reality Russia even asked india that we can work together to create a 5Th generation jet engine.

 

[no smoking]

I said this too you previously will say again.

There is no point in investing money in inferior technology. Russia don't have the technology to do it now. They are trying to build izedily - 30 which is in development so even they are trying to update themselves.

Again, none of Russia’s forth generation plane is desperately waiting for their indigenous engine.

India’s tejas – a 4th generation plane, however, is still waiting for the long overdued kaveri – a 4th generation engine, now you are keep talking about how to turn Kaveri into a 5th generation engine, isn’t that funny?

In Game of technology everyone invest on the latest one not on the obsolete one. After all india in 30 years back thought to build it's own core and design and knew that which technology is better.

Who tells you that? In 1980s, US and USSR already started their 5th generation engine development, guess who decided to invest on the 4th generation engine? INDIA.

India is actually working on it . We need a engine which can power and can do super cruise for our 5Th generation jet if engine cannot match the requirements. then their is no point in even developing it. Why you cannot understand this even if we develop some Russian engine we will power toy train with it?

We require what we require simple.

That is very funny, Kaveri has been struggling to reach its original target 81kn in quite long time and failed, now you are talking about making super cruise. I am sorry, I would never understand this logic.

Russia simply don't have the technology which we seek that's why india is running around French US UK anyone. Russians themselves need to invest and create it. And this is the reality Russia even asked india that we can work together to create a 5Th generation jet engine.

Sure, Russian’s 5th generation engine is flying now, where is India’s 4th generation engine?

 

[no smoking]

I said this too you previously will say again.

There is no point in investing money in inferior technology. Russia don't have the technology to do it now. They are trying to build izedily - 30 which is in development so even they are trying to update themselves.

Again, none of Russia’s forth generation plane is desperately waiting for their indigenous engine.

India’s tejas – a 4th generation plane, however, is still waiting for the long overdued kaveri – a 4th generation engine, now you are keep talking about how to turn Kaveri into a 5th generation engine, isn’t that funny?

In Game of technology everyone invest on the latest one not on the obsolete one. After all india in 30 years back thought to build it's own core and design and knew that which technology is better.

Who tells you that? In 1980s, US and USSR already started their 5th generation engine development, guess who decided to invest on the 4th generation engine? INDIA.

India is actually working on it . We need a engine which can power and can do super cruise for our 5Th generation jet if engine cannot match the requirements. then their is no point in even developing it. Why you cannot understand this even if we develop some Russian engine we will power toy train with it?

We require what we require simple.

That is very funny, Kaveri has been struggling to reach its original target 81kn in quite long time and failed, now you are talking about making super cruise. I am sorry, I would never understand this logic.

Russia simply don't have the technology which we seek that's why india is running around French US UK anyone. Russians themselves need to invest and create it. And this is the reality Russia even asked india that we can work together to create a 5Th generation jet engine.

Sure, Russian’s 5th generation engine is flying now, where is India’s 4th generation engine?

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Sure, Russian’s 5th generation engine is flying now, where is India’s 4th generation engine?

Who tells you that? In 1980s, US and USSR already started their 5th generation engine development, guess who decided to invest on the 4th generation engine? INDIA

Were is Russian 5Th generation engine?

India’s tejas – a 4th generation plane, however, is still waiting for the long overdued kaveri – a 4th generation engine, now you are keep talking about how to turn Kaveri into a 5th generation engine, isn’t that funny?

Lamo. I never said it's perfect looks like you are coming shot on valid points and is now coming with BS. It's in development.
And india totally skipped the program of putting Kaveri in tejas it will be directly installed in amca

That is very funny, Kaveri has been struggling to reach its original target 81kn in quite long time and failed, now you are talking about making super cruise. I am sorry, I would never understand this logic

Babies are not able to walk for some months it doesn't mean they will never walk. Kaveri will have different series K-4 being the one which will be used on AMCA as india economy grows more funds will reach it. Indian AMCA will require two 110 KN engines the work is going on. To make it lighter and more efficient because of it's 3 fan 6 stages structure that can be achieved.

Sure, Russian’s 5th generation engine is flying now, where is India’s 4th generation engine?

How many are flying? 100? 200? 50?.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

DRDO CHIEF ON KAVERI.
Update.
14
November, 2019
by Manish Kumar Jha
Despite insufficient budget and structural changes, Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has performed commendable on missile technology and fighter aircraft. In an exclusive interaction with BW Businessworld’s Manish Kumar Jha, DRDO Chairman and Secretary Department of Defence R&D G. Satheesh Reddy talks about the critical issues of R&D in Defence, apart from other pertinent issues.


The plan to develop Kaveri fighter engine as a part of the Rafale deal has hit a roadblock after the Indian side found pricing prohibitive. Only a part of the offsets, over €250 million, could be utilised for the project and the remaining €500 million, the DRDO would have to shell out. Please share insight about the Kaveri engine and challenges to achieve the required thrust? Do you still see Kaveri as a potential fit?
While developing Kaveri engine, we have learnt our lessons. It was a useful, technology development vehicle to traverse the path of fighter aircraft engine development cycle and understanding. The project gave enormous insight and experience in development of materials; various sub systems, assembly and testing an aircraft engine. It might have fallen short of expectations, but teams have gone through the process and now the requisite know how to develop a fighter aircraft engine and the intricacies involved. They are better equipped to handle and point of take off is definitely higher for next gen aircraft engine.

We have moved beyond Kaveri engine in terms of power, technology and utility. We intend to develop our own engines for fighter aircrafts; it could be with or without collaboration. Development of such critical technology is not about economics or offsets but about building technological capability in the country.

Then, how about the AMCA and Tejas MK 2, as they require higher capacity engine?
Higher capacity engine is a must for both aircrafts and there are no two opinions about that. Two parallel approaches are being planned, first is use of imported engine for development, and second is to develop indigenous engine, while progressing aircraft integration and flight testing to prove other aspects.

Do we see the AMCA project being realised by 2023 as it addresses the huge capability gap in IAF for the depleting squadron? With the current scope of design, will the AMCA be at par with the F-22 Raptor and the F-35?
It is our endeavor to develop the AMCA as per the project schedule to meet the Air force requirements. Preliminary designs of the aircraft have already been carried out. We should be in a position to roll out the first AMCA within 5 years of projection. We are not comparing AMCA with other aircrafts, but trying to meet our specifications.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I would rather be happy with any sort of engine has ability to power Tejas made and design here in my county.

what difference it makes if its a super cruise or not for immediate requirement.