Indian response to a Pakistani nuclear strike

Discussion in 'Defence & Strategic Issues' started by Yusuf, Apr 21, 2012.

  1. no smoking

    no smoking Senior Member Senior Member

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    In last 60s, Russian was once planning to retaliate Chinese nuclear facilities with 200 nuclear warheads, how many warheads did Chinese have at the time? Less than 20!
    Today, publically Pakistan has around 120, do your math, what is necessary figure for India to make them a piece of show?

    There are quite a lot experts out there checking your defence budget, your nuclear material imports, your factories production rate. They maybe wrong with exact number of India's nuclear warheads. But there is no way that they will underestimate your nuclear force 10 times. Maintaining a nuclear force with more 1000 warheads is completely different thing than merely 100-150.



    Yes there is a significant number maybe hide, but misread 1000 nukes to 100 nukes? Highly unlikely.

    I am not arguing if India has good reason or not. I am trying to point out that India is publicly blaming Pakistan government is behind all these terrorism attack, but she has been doing nothing significantly when she is enjoying an overwhelming superiority on conventional military forces. There must be a reason that she is doing what she should do. My guess is: Pakistan's nuclear weapon.
     
  2. garg_bharat

    garg_bharat Senior Member Senior Member

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    Let us reverse the situation. Let us say India has 20 and Pakistan 120. Can Pakistan take hits from those 20 and survive?

    Did I say that. You make novel arguments. I would be more worried about "how to deliver" rather than crude numbers. Confidence in delivery systems is more important.

    May be. This could be one of the reasons. I think you misread India's conventional power. India was never so strong as to prevail over Pakistan. Even today, India lacks many components to effectively defeat Pakistan in a purely conventional war.

    However nukes can turn the tables on Pakistan despite the numbers it possesses. You look at only damage to India. You fail to factor in damage to Pakistan. Pakistan is basically 10-12 targets and its is done.
     
  3. no smoking

    no smoking Senior Member Senior Member

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    Yes, great, a country who hasn't test her H-bomb design yet is talking about the quality.
    The fact is India has neither quantity, nor quality, to annihilate Pakistan. Of course, for the fan boy, one Indian nuke could equal 100 Pakistan or Chinese nuke.

    Simply throwing a nuclear weapon in the battlefield doesn't make it a tactic weapon, all right?
    Tactic nuclear weapon is generally designed with low yield (less than 10k) and equipped on highly precise delivery weapon, aiming at smaller target. More importantly, tactic weapon is commanded by battlefield commander. You need to give this level commander the autherization to decide where, when and how to use tactic nuke in a battle. This will require a lot of drill. Did you ever see Pakistan hold any drill with tactic nuclear involved?

    Maybe you should listen as well.

    No, Chinese doesn't hold Pakistan government responsible for that. Instead, they blame the militant group within Pakistan. And Pakistan army is fighting a war against these groups now.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_North-West_Pakistan

    http://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/costs/human/civilians/pakistani
     
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  4. Indx TechStyle

    Indx TechStyle War Mongerer Veteran Member Senior Member

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    We are incapable of taking out pakis?
    Think over it again. :biggrin2:
     
  5. no smoking

    no smoking Senior Member Senior Member

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    Doesn't matter! 1971 war proves that India can destroy Pakistan without nuclear weapon.

    So, you are suggesting Pakistan's missile doesn't work?

    Ok, let's put this way.
    1971 war proves the superiority of India conventional forces against Pakistan. After 45 years development, the gap between the 2 countries becomes even larger. If a large scale war coming again, Pakistan is destined to lose and this time the consequence will lot more serious as they can't afford losing another big piece of land.

    Since their economic scale is less than 20% of India's, there is no hope they can catch up on military build up. And worst of worse, there is no hope that they can impose sufficient damage to India in a conventional war: their weapons are simply outnumbered and outclassed. They need to find a way to prevent India from initiating a big war.
    So, here is how nuclear weapon come to save them. Let's say their nuclear weapon can only cause 5m death in India while India's nuclear weapon can kill all of them. Will India decide to start a nuclear war to destroy Pakistan completely at the cost of 5m Indian lives? Well, highly unlikely. So, as long as Pakistan doesn't give Indian government a good reason to believe that 5m Indian death is acceptable, Pakistan is safe.

    You may suggest that Pakistan won't dare to start a nuclear war because they will lose all. Well, maybe you are right! But keep this in mind: Pakistan make it clear that they will only use nuclear weapon when they are losing big in the war. In other words, they will only use it when they are dying. Do they really care if you can kill them twice?
     
  6. garg_bharat

    garg_bharat Senior Member Senior Member

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    So, you are suggesting Pakistan's missile doesn't work?

    Honestly I have no idea. Do you?

    Since their economic scale is less than 20% of India's, there is no hope they can catch up on military build up.

    Pakistan's GDP is roughly 1/8 of India's now. However it maintains 50% manpower compared to India; and has rough parity in tanks and howitzers. The reason is large transfers from USA and China which we believe add to almost 3B USD a year. Pakistan always advertises that it matches India in quantity and quality and more. So your argument is false.

    Pakistan make it clear that they will only use nuclear weapon when they are losing big in the war.

    Nobody knows the definition of "losing big". Do you know? I don't know.
    Nobody understands Pakistan's threshold. Do you? All we know is that Americans are very worried (due to their perception of low threshold of nuclear use as enunciated by Pakistan).
     
  7. OrangeFlorian

    OrangeFlorian Anon Supreme Senior Member

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    We only have to brutally air raid the cities like Skardu, Lahore, Islamabad, and Karachi to destroy their economy they won't be able to keep up a war with us after that
     
  8. sesha_maruthi27

    sesha_maruthi27 Senior Member Senior Member

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    Pakistan keeps begging the Americans. If not for the Americans, India would have wiped out pakistan after the 26/11 attacks.... Pakistanis and the ISI were pissing inside their pants after the 26/11 attacks....
     
  9. Bornubus

    Bornubus Chodi Bhakt & BJPig Hunter Senior Member

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    Lol Skardu is like big village nothing more why waste a nuke on it.In 1971 it should've been annexed along with Turtok but cease fire saved it.

    On a lighter note - Dogra rulers completely forced it's people into complete submission, they are our former slaves and we might need their women to repopulate Bharat after the Nuclear war.
     
  10. Indx TechStyle

    Indx TechStyle War Mongerer Veteran Member Senior Member

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    Now, this called neck to neck rivalry of cockroaches. Two failed (one is still failing) States against each other. :p
     
  11. sorcerer

    sorcerer Senior Member Veteran Member Senior Member

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    Thats Afghan weed talking..coupled with chinese madrassa education.
    :D
    paki fan boy from china trying to be awesomely stupid for pakistan countering all commonsense and facts.
    We know that even 1 pakistani painted chinese nukes cant do much against India..
    Mushraff learned it the real real hard way during Kargil.


    Really?Wow!! So much of new information...(Note the sarcasm)

    Thats the exact worry for a nuke warfare..because tactical nukes are controlled and commanded by battlefield commanders..and we know how fanatics these battle field commander of pak army is.. A single battle field commander bend on jihad could invoke a dilemma annihilating pakistan as a whole.
    pak army is not a very professional agency.. Read the following article and you will understand why even chinese dont trust the even the mid level ranks of pak army..forget low level ranks.

    Do nations conduct drills with live nukes?
    No Stupid..they conduct and test delivery mechanism for tactical nukes which pakis have conducted enough already.

    And again if there is a drill with an element of nukes involved think about the escalation in South Asia.. :D with pakistan getting cornered big time from all angles including from china.pakistan would become untouchable for china.



    May be you should read a lot as well!!!
    I am listening very well to your stupid facts and its all a joke.

    :D
    http://tribune.com.pk/story/221828/china-blames-xinjiang-unrest-on-terrorists/
    Xinjiang unrest: China blames unrest on Pakistan-trained terrorists

    The Pakistani Foreign Ministry has not commented yet, but the allegations that camps in Pakistan helped trained Chinese militants will only increase pressure on Pakistani authorities which the U.S. has accused of cosying-up to some of the Islamist fundamentalist organisations operating in the country.

    Its from inside pakistan, the exact version what India has already said many times... Thats what the chinese blamed pakistan on...the militants getting trained in pakistan with much support of their intel agency. The same worry India shared with the rest of the world on pakistan.

    May be they are not doing enough in the WoT Drama.


    :D
    seems like paki showed chinese the cold shoulder on East Turkestan

    http://blogs.reuters.com/india/2009/07/09/xinjiang-the-spreading-arc-of-instability/
    Pakistan’s Daily Times noted the Chinese concerns, but said Islamabad could only play a limited role given that it was itself fighting to regain control of its territory in the northwest from the militants.


    The Xinjiangistan Connection
    With terror attacks on the rise, officials in Beijing are increasingly worried that Pakistan is an incubator of Islamic radicalism across China.

    When the Pakistani army launched its campaign in the militant-riddled tribal region North Waziristan in June, it was tempting to attribute the operation to U.S. pressure. For many years, Washington has been urging Pakistan to move against this terrorist haven, situated in the northwest corner of the country on the Afghan border. Indeed, only weeks earlier,the U.S.Congress made the initiation of operations there — which involved tens of thousands of Pakistani troops and the evacuation of nearly half a million people— a precondition for future military assistance. But the security needs of China, Pakistan’s "all-weather friend," probably proved even more important than Congress in Islamabad’s calculations.

    China is struggling with its worst series of terrorist attacks in decades. Xinjiang, a Muslim region in China’s northwest bordering Pakistan, has long been wracked with tension between the Chinese government, the swelling ranks of Han Chinese migrants, and the native population of Uighurs, a Turkic-speaking Muslim people. Especially over the last year, disgruntled Uighurs — often acting in armed groups demanding greater autonomy or a fully independent state of East Turkistan — have been a thorn in Beijing’s side.Chinese state media reported that on July 29, dozens of people were killed or injured after a knife-wielding gang attacked a police station in Xinjiang — only the latest in a long series of deadly incidents in that region.''


    ,..........

    China understood Pakistan’s hesitation to launch a full-scale assault in North Waziristan — the presence of militant groups backed by its intelligence services, the risk of blowback, and the sheer numbers of troops required weighed heavily in Islamabad’s calculations. But Beijing has started to question whether the resilience of the Uighur militant groups might also be tied to religious sympathies among Pakistan’s armed forces.

    Beijing appears to trust the top ranks of the Pakistani army — including the new Chief of Army Staff Gen. Raheel Sharif — but worries about the younger generations that have come through the system since the "Islamization" of Pakistani society and the army over the last 35 years. "We’re not worried about the generals, we’re worried about the brigadiers," one Chinese analyst put it. In other words, top officers are sufficiently secular for Chinese tastes; the lower ranks are not.


    Privately, Chinese officials and experts complain that the Pakistanis have given Uighur militants a heads-up. "When we provide them with intelligence on ETIM locations they give warnings before launching their attacks," groused a Chinese analyst familiar with intelligence issues. :rofl:Foreign intelligence services have even provided material to Chinese officials that purports to show Pakistani intelligence agents:rofl: at TIP training camps. "We certainly think there’s a strong chance [Pakistani intelligence] has contacts and relationships with ETIM and the Uzbeks," said a Chinese official familiar with intelligence issues.
    ....

    And Chinese analysts note a visible lack of willingness among some Pakistani officers to respond to Beijing’s requests. "We see it in their eyes when we’re sitting in the meetings," said a Chinese analyst with ties to China’s People’s Liberation Army (PLA)."They’re not comfortable with what we’re asking.

    http://foreignpolicy.com/2014/07/30/the-xinjiangistan-connection/

    According to reports, the Chinese military is currently engaged in halting the flow of terrorists from Pakistan up the Karakorum Highway and through the Khunjerab Pass into Xinjiang. China would like Pakistan stem the tide of Uyghur militants into China. The failure of Pakistan’s military to do so have led to suspicions in China that some mid-level members of Pakistan’s army are sympathetic to the Uyghur militants and that the problem is not due to Pakistan’s incapacity to eliminate militants in Waziristan. Many of these sympathetic soldiers have been influenced by Pakistan’s Islamization policies since the 1980s. Many Chinese officials believe that Pakistan’s intelligence services have contracts with Uyghur militants who may be used, if needed, in places like Kashmir and Afghanistan. As such, Pakistanis are unwilling to fully take out the Uyghur militants within their borders.

    http://thediplomat.com/2014/08/china-wonders-if-pakistan-is-responsible-for-xinjiang-violence/
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2016
  12. no smoking

    no smoking Senior Member Senior Member

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    Generally, I would assume my enemy's missile working as they said. And so far, I have found no reason to doubt their missile.

    Yes, after all these, the gap becomes even bigger: India is planning to buy Rafael and Pak Fa on the top of her Su-30s while Pakistan is buying JF-17 on top of J-7. The same story is repeating on the land and sea. If you are claiming that Pakistan is equal to India on military equipment, you are kidding yourself.

    That is the idea: unless India wants to find out where the line is, Pakistan is safe.
     
  13. garg_bharat

    garg_bharat Senior Member Senior Member

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    @no smoking, nobody can understands gibberish you type.

    First of all Pakistan does not buy anything as it has no money. It has godfather like China which gives it free.

    The so called Pakistani missiles are Chinese missiles repainted at Kahuta labs.

    India has to assume that China can give any modern weapon to Pakistan anytime.
    What Pakistan has currently is inconsequential.

    I think you should leave this discussion as you add no value whatsoever, just keep repeating your well known viewpoint.
     
  14. Indx TechStyle

    Indx TechStyle War Mongerer Veteran Member Senior Member

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    So, by backed from yourself?
    :biggrin2:
     
  15. Tripurantak

    Tripurantak New Member

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    Usuf wrote:
    I have a different take on how India should respond to a Pakistani first strike.

    India does not have to respond with nuclear weapons to a Pakistani nuke strike.

    ------------------------------------
    My Take:

    It seems the writer Usuf is more worried about deaths of porkis. While casually drawing a picture of Delhi and Mumbai obliterated. It does not anger him that the Nation Bharat that has fed him, educated and gave oppurtunity to rise and prosper GETS NUKED by suar porkis.

    Imagine Delhi and Mumbai 2 cities and surrounding area of 5 crore population dead, and Bharat's army moves to dismember porkistan that that land of inbreds marrying their own cousins and producing retarded inbred race don't get to face the radiation like us Bharatvaasis?

    While such a big disaster has happened army will move to porkis as nothing has happened its supply lines unaffected and all.... waah kya baat kahi. Clap!

    And what will dismemberment get us. Same as those inbred perverted bhooka bangladeshis did, burn our BSF jawaans alive during Vajpayee regime.

    Same 4 - 5 muslim nations Baluch, Sindh, Punjab & Pakhtunkhwa will be doing.

    Retardedness of the idea is that you take a bottle of poison wash its lable "pakistan" off. Divide the contents of the same bottle in 4 smaller ones with new lables AND THEN drink it down you will be all right. 'Poison' won't effect you. Haa haa genius Usuf.

    This is how probably ISI's ghazwa e hind branch thinks.

    Pakistan & Bangladesh muslim population was 6 to 7 crore in 1947 at partition time.

    In Bharat muslim population was around 4 crore at that time.

    Now porkis and bangladeshi populations are around 36 to 38 crores. That means growth of whopping 8 to 9 times.

    After dismemberment bangladesh remains enemy to Bharat.

    Same will be from dismembered porki nations.

    Another weird thing Usuf says is that we can't obliterate the whole pakistan with nukes, so why use, just using conventional gola barood kill all porki army + those enemies inside porki land. THAT IS ALMOST WHOLE OF PORKLAND !!! How can conventional ammunition achieve what nucler can't?

    And enemy china will be laughing seeing Bharat losing 2 biggest cities and weakened considerably.

    Nope it seems under the garb of well wishing, Usuf is trying to save big chunk of muslim population on Bharatiya Upmahadweep.

    Our nuclear retaliation should be on the dense part of population on this map:
    http://www.bestcountryreports.com/media/D_Images/Pakist_Pop.jpg

    And pop goes porkis. And then we should also nuke Bangladesh as a weakened nuke Bharat will be easy prey for them too to eat up and mischief in our eastern borders.
     
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  16. bengalraider

    bengalraider DFI Technocrat Stars and Ambassadors

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    tripurantak- first introduce yourself, secondly this Yususf you speak of has far more strategic sense than you!
     
  17. Prasanna kumar

    Prasanna kumar India is my Identity Defence Professionals

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    Calm down boss. Calm down. I didn't even read all of that the moment I saw first couple of lines filled with anger and emotion and lack a great deal of logic and the prime nature of debate.

    You could have responded in a nonchalant way. Remember, before debating some one or something you must try reasoning.

    And about Yusuf I wouldn't talk like that one more time if I were you.

    Sent from my XT1022 using Tapatalk
     
  18. Prasanna kumar

    Prasanna kumar India is my Identity Defence Professionals

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    And you really think that Bangladesh will do such misadventure after being a first hand witness to India's conventional capabilities(if we choose to not use nukes). It doesn't mean that there is no such chance, but only if people with same mindset as you have are present on the other side of the eastern border.

    BTW please introduce yourself.
     
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  19. sayareakd

    sayareakd Moderator Moderator

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    Unofficial nuke policy should be if Pak ever attack us or our forces, then Pakistan will get 50 nukes and China will get 100 nukes for free.

    That will ensure that Pakistani nukes will never be used against us.

    Rest we are bankrupting Pak every day.
     
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  20. Tripurantak

    Tripurantak New Member

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    Bengal Raider, I was just trawling through net searching for articles on Bharat's nuclear preparation, and came across this site. There is not much to introduce about me, I work as graphic designer and am a military enthusiast, that's all. You are right yusuf is far greater strategist than me, probably everyone on this forum is. But great strategist yusuf's post was in favour of pakistand and china not Bharat, that's what I saw and decided to sign up and write my view on it. I agree about great strategist ; but other part is "In pakistan china favour".

    Prasanna you need to take your own advice and calm down your self. LoL writing this "And about Yusuf I wouldn't talk like that one more time if I were you." What a great logic this is....

    Also prasanna you need to make up your mind first you said you aren't going to read my post fully due to "non-reasoning" and then you quote part of it in next post.

    Points are:
    1. If Mumbai and Delhi are nuked, and we don't respond by nuking back, it will be giving advantage to enemy. Economically, Moralewise it will send us back to lauh yug, if not pashaan yug.

    2.) That Bharat's nukes don't work that's why they don't retaliate in kind will be thought as impotence not any compassionate Buddha act. We will not even be able to support a large army against lizard-pork front.

    3.) I take analogy of pakistan as a poison bottle with lable "poison(pakistan)". What yusuf says is "Oh you just wash off the lable "poison(pakistan)". Divide "poison(pakistan) in four - five bottles and give new lables "baluchistan", "baltistan", etc.
    Pakistan is enemy of Bharat because most of its citizens hate Bharat, they'll continue to hate even in dismembered porkistan. They are brought up with hatred against Bharat ONLY. That will continue.

    6. Surrounding area of Delhi and Mumbai will not grow anything for 600 to 700 years, while porkis will have no such problem, they'll prosper, while Bharat will have to spend its energy wealth on standing up again for next millenium.

    7. On chinese side they'll have very cheaply weakened the only big Tiger in region that would've challenged them without getting a scratch. Great strategy!

    8. A weakened nuked Bharat will be prey to islamist and anglo saxon forces from all sides, for every grant of wheat and daals they'll be making us sign away our future.

    9. Nobody care for a "good boy" behaviour in the world. China gave nukes to porkis, north korea, proliferated long range missiles to saudi arabia but is in NSG, while Bharatvarsh with no proliferation good boy behaviour is not only out but going around pleading to be taken in. So internationally they'll just see Bharat as a nation of incompetent scientists with fizzled nukes couldn't retaliate.

    10. Bigger number of non-islamic population from Bharatiya subcontinent will have been killed while islamists get away with small skirmish of conventional arms. LoL Bharat had to emergency import artillery shells from israel and russia during Kargil. General V.K. Singh wrote to PM that they have only 2 days worth of ammo to fight porkis. And after being nuked yusuf wants army to go and in sniper mode only kill "pakistan army and our enemies there...."

    What enemies? The whole nation is our enemy barring 1 or 2 percent.

    No! Just concentrate all our nukes on these population density areas in the map:
    http://www.bestcountryreports.com/media/D_Images/Pakist_Pop.jpg

    And give peace a chance, destroy pakistan !!!
     
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