INS Vikramaditya (Adm Gorshkov) aircraft carrier

[Decklander]

@Decklander
can viki or any carrier can operate more fighters than it's usual capacity in war time.

for example wiki can operate 24 mig 29k, but can it support say 10 or more fighters like a juggling ?

We have a normal operating strength and a wartime strength. The wartime strength of vikky is 36 fighters and 8 helos.

 

[pmaitra]

Why doesn't India sink the Virat (post retirement) or Ex vikrant as target during exercises? Have we ever drowned a ship as test target?

The Americans do such things many times.

It should be turned into a museum.

 

[nirranj]

We have a normal operating strength and a wartime strength. The wartime strength of vikky is 36 fighters and 8 helos.

Is this a possible scenario. Viky is somewhere in the western pacific with its wartime strength. Some more Mig 29K from Andamans are conducting operation in that area. They land on Viky and refuel and rearm and again perform some more task before returning to Andamans. By this way can we make use of Viky as a forward base for land based (carrier capable) fighters?

 

[DivineHeretic]

It should be turned into a museum.

That could be a nice way of putting it to use. But I would like it to be used for as a target platform.

Fact is, We have almost no idea what it will take to sink a ship the size and mass of an aircraft carrier. World war 2 proved, beyond reasonable doubt, that carriers are extremely resilient to attacks and did not go down even after being hit with multiple 2000-2200 pounder kamikaze attacks.

The way the future is shaping up, we may have to confront a Chinese Carrier one day. If that happens, we do not want to be caught with our pants down as to how many hits it will take to sink that damned piece of metal.

The Brahmos, or even the Harpoon, with their 300Kg warhead, will in all probability not be able to sink a carrier unless it hits just above the waterline.

 

[asianobserve]

That could be a nice way of putting it to use. But I would like it to be used for as a target platform.

Buy some old/retired commercial vessels. Install some electronic equipments there to simulate radar, etc. That would do the same job.

 

[DivineHeretic]

Buy some old/retired commercial vessels. Install some electronic equipments there to simulate radar, etc. That would do the same job.

Hardly.

Old vessels are mostly single hulled and on top of that, they were never designed with the structural strength and redundancy of an aircraft carrier. Also to be remembered is that a carrier is constructed of a much stronger steel and this impacts the size of the blast hole in itself.

World war 2 saw hundreds of vessels go down with a single strike, the same couldn't be said of a carrier.

Fact is, you can try it on a "similar thing". But its never the same as trying it on the real thing.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

There is no way in my opinion Virrat going to take its permanent leave ..

She is just not a carrier but a Amphibious assault ship ability to carry nearly 800 troopers and landing crafts ..

She will be stationed in Andamans after Vikramaditya takes over, Navy also testing Rudras and interested in Naval LCH ..

That could be a nice way of putting it to use. But I would like it to be used for as a target platform.

 

[sayareakd]

There is no way in my opinion Virrat going to take its permanent leave ..

She is just not a carrier but a Amphibious assault ship ability to carry nearly 800 troopers and landing crafts ..

She will be stationed in Andamans after Vikramaditya takes over, Navy also testing Rudras and interested in Naval LCH ..

Sir another thing we can do is to tow Vikrant behind Vikramaditya. That way we can launch aircrafts from Vikramaditya and Helicopters and harriers from Vikrant, just in case we have to go very long way.

 

[delta]

There is no way in my opinion Virrat going to take its permanent leave ..

She is just not a carrier but a Amphibious assault ship ability to carry nearly 800 troopers and landing crafts ..

She will be stationed in Andamans after Vikramaditya takes over, Navy also testing Rudras and interested in Naval LCH ..

imho, wouldnt an amphibious assault ship require its front to be able to open like that of INS Magar? also, even if it does carry landing craft, how will viraat launch them? there is no platform for that except for cranes i'd say (which doesn't seem a very good option).

now as far as stationing helicopters on her go, that is an excellent idea. after all, she used to be a helicopter carrier in her earlier days! but it all depends on the life of the carrier. she is more than 50 years old in any case.

 

[delta]

That could be a nice way of putting it to use. But I would like it to be used for as a target platform.

Fact is, We have almost no idea what it will take to sink a ship the size and mass of an aircraft carrier. World war 2 proved, beyond reasonable doubt, that carriers are extremely resilient to attacks and did not go down even after being hit with multiple 2000-2200 pounder kamikaze attacks.

The way the future is shaping up, we may have to confront a Chinese Carrier one day. If that happens, we do not want to be caught with our pants down as to how many hits it will take to sink that damned piece of metal.

The Brahmos, or even the Harpoon, with their 300Kg warhead, will in all probability not be able to sink a carrier unless it hits just above the waterline.

how about a single well placed torpedo just below the hull?
i'd say the greatest threat to vikramaditya would be from a submarine rather than a missile. glad that we are shoring up our ASW capabilities in that regard.

 

[pmaitra]

That could be a nice way of putting it to use. But I would like it to be used for as a target platform.

Fact is, We have almost no idea what it will take to sink a ship the size and mass of an aircraft carrier. World war 2 proved, beyond reasonable doubt, that carriers are extremely resilient to attacks and did not go down even after being hit with multiple 2000-2200 pounder kamikaze attacks.

The way the future is shaping up, we may have to confront a Chinese Carrier one day. If that happens, we do not want to be caught with our pants down as to how many hits it will take to sink that damned piece of metal.

The Brahmos, or even the Harpoon, with their 300Kg warhead, will in all probability not be able to sink a carrier unless it hits just above the waterline.

Why just this (to be) decommissioned aircraft carrier? Pray why? There are plenty of other ships that could be used. There are large oil tankers that could be used. I really do not see the benefit of using an aircraft carrier.

No Sir, I want it to be converted into a museum.

 

[pmaitra]

Sir another thing we can do is to tow Vikrant behind Vikramaditya. That way we can launch aircrafts from Vikramaditya and Helicopters and harriers from Vikrant, just in case we have to go very long way.

Good idea. I think Vikrant can be towed by anything but another aircraft carrier. That way, we will have two floating airstrips at different places. This is, of course, a contingency.

 

[sayareakd]

Good idea. I think Vikrant can be towed by anything but another aircraft carrier. That way, we will have two floating airstrips at different places. This is, of course, a contingency.

Small ship can tow big one easily, they even tested this type of things in WW2 Normandy landing.

 

[sayareakd]

Good idea. I think Vikrant can be towed by anything but another aircraft carrier. That way, we will have two floating airstrips at different places. This is, of course, a contingency.

Sir think it like this, we have one CBG, now with Vikrant being towed behind Vikramaditya, it is like having two ACs on same CBG, that way you dont need two CBG one will do the job, plus you have lots of space for helicopter born operations as Kunal sir said

She is just not a carrier but a Amphibious assault ship ability to carry nearly 800 troopers and landing crafts ..

This give us lots of legs and far reach.............

Enemy too will have hard time taking on such CBG.

 

[DivineHeretic]

Why just this (to be) decommissioned aircraft carrier? Pray why? There are plenty of other ships that could be used. There are large oil tankers that could be used. I really do not see the benefit of using an aircraft carrier.

No Sir, I want it to be converted into a museum.

Other ships are not like an aircraft carrier. You could test your theories on it, but it wont be the same as testing it on the real thing. Plus, an oil tanker has a completely different structure from an Aircraft carrier.

An oil tanker has upto 12 tanks for holding oil. For a medium sized tanker of 80,000 ton DWT, this means some 6700ton capacity per tank. A single hull breach causing flooding of just one tank will be enough to sink such a tanker.

Compare that to an aircraft carrier which has multiple water tight compartments. It is entirely possible for an AC to stay afloat even after one or two compartments have been flooded.

 

[DivineHeretic]

@pmaitra, I get the sentiments behind your desire to convert it to a museum. Similar sentiments have been expressed elsewhere as well.

The following is the explanation provided by Vice Chief of Naval Operations, Admiral John B. Nathman in 2005 to the people who wished to have the super carrier converted to a museum.


"America will make one final and vital contribution to our national defense, this time as a live-fire test and evaluation platform. America's legacy will serve as a footprint in the design of future carriers — ships that will protect the sons, daughters, grandchildren and great-grandchildren of America veterans. We will conduct a variety of comprehensive tests above and below the waterline collecting data for use by naval architects and engineers in creating the nation's future carrier fleet. It is essential we make those ships as highly survivable as possible. When that mission is complete, the America will slip quietly beneath the sea. I know America has a very special place in your hearts, not only for the name, but also for your service aboard her. I ask that you understand why we selected this ship for this one last crucial mission and make note of the critical nature of her final service."[

I believe this explanation holds true for us as well. Despite the service rendered, it must be put to use such that our future in Naval Aviation, our understanding of Carriers in itself is improved.

 

[pmaitra]

Oh well, we all have our opinions. Let's move on and talk about Vikramaditya.

 

[DivineHeretic]

What is the normal sortie rate for a STOBAR carrier. for example, the Kuznetsov?

What will be the sortie rate for Viky in normal and combat scenarios (Any Ideas considering its deck plan)

Is there any plan with Navy to buy some more VTOL Aircraft like the Harriers?

How many VTOL Aircraft can simultaneously land on a Aircraft carrier?

Can two or more Helicopters simultaneously be launched from a Carrier?
@pmaitra, @Decklander, @arnabmit, @Kunal Biswas

The Kutznetsov at around 60,000 Tons is similar to the upcoming Queen Elizabeth Class of Aircraft carriers of the British navy in dimensions and aircraft complement. As such, we do expect them to have fairly similar sortie and recovery rates of the aircrafts operating onboard the aircraft carrier.

The QE carriers are expected to generate a maximum launch rate of 24 aircraft in 15 minutes and a maximum recovery rate of 24 aircraft in 24 minutes.
However for a five day period of operations, we have...
The carrier will support joint combat aircraft carrying out up to 420 sorties over five days and be able to conduct day and night time operations. The maximum sortie rate is 110 joint combat aircraft sorties in a 24-hour period.

Of course these estimates are based on an aircraft complement of 40 aircraft and well trained, well experienced crew.

Please keep in mind that sortie and launches are quite different terms.

However a word of caution in calculating sortie rates. Size of the aircraft carrier is not everything, nor is the aircraft complement the decisive factor in increasing or decreasing aircraft sortie and launch rates.

The USN, the sole operators of super carriers, have had mixed experiences with their carrier fleet.

The SURGEX (war-game/exercise) concept postulated carrier aircraft flying one-hour to 1.5-hour sorties and ringing up 200 sorties every 24 hours. With such time requirements, targets more than 200 miles from the carrier would prove to be out of reach.

However, Come Operation Desert Fox in 1998, and these expected sortie rates were found to be out of reach even with a complement of 36 F/A-18s, 10 F-14s, and six EA-6Bs. The best estimate is that CVW-3 logged about 50 strike sorties per day, for a sortie rate of 1.0.

The Carrier Myth
Queen Elizabeth Class (CVF) - Naval Technology

But having said all that, one fact that must be kept in mind in conducting strike missions is the persistence or staying time over target area. Its one thing to enter into an area, and quite another to stay there for a reasonable period of time to support ground operations and/or naval operations.

The talk is all about sorties, very little about persistence over the area and no (if I didn't miss it with my quick look) comparison of actual effect on target.
In short: A F-18 sortie that drops two bombs and loiters over target for an hour is treated as one sortie – just like a B-1B that drops ten bombs and loiters for hours over the area.

 

[Decklander]

Is this a possible scenario. Viky is somewhere in the western pacific with its wartime strength. Some more Mig 29K from Andamans are conducting operation in that area. They land on Viky and refuel and rearm and again perform some more task before returning to Andamans. By this way can we make use of Viky as a forward base for land based (carrier capable) fighters?

Whatever these ac from andaman can do, the Vikky based ac will also be able to do, so why do you want to fly them in all the way from andaman? Use the ones which are on Vikky.

 

[nirranj]

Whatever these ac from andaman can do, the Vikky based ac will also be able to do, so why do you want to fly them in all the way from andaman? Use the ones which are on Vikky.

Just out of curiosity sir. Just in case we need more aircrafts to sustain Air dominance over a area. Will such setup work? Like i will mean we have the strength of two aircraft carriers in the theater, but only one aircraft carrier is physiclly present.