Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[Cruise missile]

 

[ArgonPrime]

@ArgonPrime contd...

This applies for both AK-1 & VT-4. You want to be waiting, dug-in or atleast hull-down to face advancing Indians in those. And THEN gone for a tremendous advantage! Chance of a killshot from the front is 15% max... View attachment 78004
Yes they can be very vulnerable when flanked, but deployed properly flanking is very difficult.

Of course but what's the verdict on their hull armor layout?? I really need to know.

And for the turrets, it's true that they don't have any obvious weak spots but both AK and VT-4 has got fully modular armor, which means at least 40% of the armor block's volume is wasted as they need to leave a gap in the armor cavity to make room for the mounting bolts. So, their perceived LOS thickness is deceiving, to say the least.

I like that Pakis know what they want from the tank & have acquired accordingly... While our Army's ASQR is just few pages of ORAORAORAORAORAORAORAORAORAORAORAORAORAORAORAORAORAORA

Can't argue with that.

 

[Bleh]

Of course but what's the verdict on their hull armor layout?? I really need to know.

I could be sure, but doesn't matter really. In both cases it's concentrated around the centre-of-silhouette at cost of sides.

BTW, one thing you Armata comment reminded me of. Coming to it but first... I had a better version of this image that clearly shows Armata lower glacis is same size as Al Khalid.

And the effective armour there is no more than 400mm, behind it the whole crew.

Now back to the mentined point... APS & other mounted shit are very very vulnerable. Arjun's thermobaric round has been specifically developed to be prematurely exploded by the the hard-kill APS, so that it can destroy every sight & sensor on the tank. That's its main purpose (& that again is assuming arty fragments won't do it first).

 

[ArgonPrime]

@Bleh @ArgonPrime what are the ways to improve the protection of turret weakspots?

1. Move the GMS to the turret roof.
2. Either reduce the size of the mantlet or redesign it on the line of K2/Altay.
3. Add 350mm (at the bare minimum) of composite armor panels to the turret sides, preferably encompassing the sides all the way to the turret bustle or at least extend it to cover the entire crew compartment. At present, the side armor only extends to about one-third along the length of the turret, which has to be increased to two-thirds of it.
4. Redesign the lower glacis plate to incorporate composite armor, at present, it's made out of only an RHA plate with LOS thickness of ~ 150 mm or so.
5. Install spaced armor as they did with the late-model Leopard 2s, or you could go the heavy ERA route,, preferably one with linear shaped charges inserts.

 

[ArgonPrime]

I could be sure, but doesn't matter really. In both cases it's concentrated around the centre-of-silhouette at cost of sides.

BTW, one thing you Armata comment reminded me of. Coming to it but first... I had a better version of this image that clearly shows Armata lower glacis is same size as Al Khalid. View attachment 78013
And the effective armour there is no more than 400mm, behind it the whole crew.

Yes, in absolute terms, you are right. But there are some nuances to it -
First of all, any round that hits the LFP will be coming from a top-down angle, which will significantly increase the LOS thickness the round has to penetrate.
Secondly, take a look at this -

If this is indeed how the armor is laid out, just imagine how difficult it would be to hit the LFP in the first place??!!

No back to the mentined point... APS & other mounted shit are very very vulnerable. Arjun's thermobaric round has been specifically developed to be prematurely exploded by the the hard-kill APS, so that it can destroy every site & sensor on the tank. That's its main purpose (& that again is assuming arty fragments won't do it first).

Nothing to argue in there. I've mentioned this before myself, that the turret has to be up-armored. I don't fully trust APS either, at least I wouldn't bet my life on it.

 

[Bleh]

@Bleh @ArgonPrime what are the ways to improve the protection of turret weakspots?

Not the main issue really. But see my post: https://defenceforumindia.com/threads/arjun-main-battle-tank-mbt.9558/post-1856105

Nowadays, the concentration is on the 1st & 2nd layer. Arjun's mobile camouflage & smoke-launcher APS are being expected to stop the a shot being aimed in the first place (you can't detect shit at beyound 2.5km during battle without thermal sights).

Without laser-sensors you will suddenly be hit & half the tanks be out action b4 you locate the foe.

Many don't know, but the first time both Tiger1 & Tiger2 appeared in their 1st battles, all of them are slaughter without scoring a single kill!.. That's what your armour is worth b4 superior situational awareness.

4. Redesign the lower glacis plate to incorporate composite armor, at present, it's made out of only an RHA plate with LOS thickness of ~ 150 mm or so.

Actually the lower glacis is composite armour, but intended solely to manage HEAT rounds. FSAPDS can't even ignite the wet stowed compartmentalised ammo & will go right through. Noticed since WW2 Shermans experienced that.

Last I heard they were working on an propellant that would only exploded by electric pulses... you can throw it in fire but it wont to go off, I think Semtex behaves like that too.

 

[Bleh]

@ArgonPrime the cross section of armata you have shared could an exaggerated work by some amateur fanboy (great if it's accurate). I say that because conflicting alternative versions exist.

And unfortunately, I can't find that photo of T-72 & T-14 side by side, but it may be more evident in this scaled work... That LFP is as big as in LeClerc or Challenger & everything below the crews chest is behind a max-500mm thick plate!

Russian for marketing this as the next gen shit, but it could just as well turn out to be the new glasscannon deathtrap like T-72. Not only is the turret puffball, ANY penetration is 100% guaranteed death of crew.

 

[ArgonPrime]

Not the main issue really. But see my post: https://defenceforumindia.com/threads/arjun-main-battle-tank-mbt.9558/post-1856105

View attachment 78016

Nowadays, the concentration is on the 1st & 2nd layer. Arjun's mobile camouflage & smoke-launcher APS are being expected to stop the a shot being aimed in the first place (you can't detect shit at beyound 2.5km during battle without thermal sights).

Without laser-sensors you will suddenly be hit & half the tanks be out action b4 you locate the foe.

Many don't know, but the first time both Tiger1 & Tiger2 appeared in their 1st battles, all of them are slaughter without scoring a single kill!.. That's what your armour is worth.



Actually the lower glacis is composite armour, but intended solely to manage HEAT rounds. FSAPDS can't even ignite the wet stowed compartmentalised ammo & will go right through. Noticed since WW2 Shermans experienced that.

Last I heard they were working on an propellant that would only exploded by electric pulses... you can throw it in fire but it wont to go off, I think Semtex behaves like that too.

If you do away with existing Armoured formations, who is going to perform their role? Each formation has a tasking assigned to it. We've already dismantled one Strike Corps. We can't weaken our Western posture any more. I say we replace as many T-72 as we can afford to by Armata/FRCV/FMBT/GNMBT. But we should let the T-72 we can't replace right now serve upto 2040 at least. Its not like Pakistan has the best of weapons. Their low end tanks are even more pitiful than the T-72.

• We already have about 30 T-90 Regiments. There was a new order placed for 8 more T-90 Regiments.
• 2 Regiments of Arjun Mk1 in service with 2 more of Mk1A on order.
• Remaining are about 44 regiments of T-72.
• This comes to a total of 76 Armoured Regiments. Ideal strength was 80, but whatever....
• Now out of these 44 T-72 Regiments, 8 will be replaced by T-90 and 2 by Arjun Mk1A.
• That leaves us with around 34 T-72 Regiments.
• Cost of replacing them with a Futuristic MBT, assuming a cost of $10 Million per tank, is $ 17.68 Billion.
• This cost is double that of the FICV program.
• But considering that this replacement will start only after 2028 and will continue for about 10 years, Army will only need to shell out $1.7 Billion per year. Add to that a generous $1 Billion yearly for 10 years for the FICV program and we'll be looking at an annual CAPEX of $2.7 Billion going towards revitalization of the Armoured Fist of India.
• Compare that to
  • $ 3.6 Billion total CAPEX of Army in 2020-21.
  • $ 4 Billion total CAPEX of Army in 2021-22 (Assuming a 12% increase).
• Also consider that by 2028, this budget would at least have doubled and in the next 10 years upto 2038, it would quadruple at least (especially considering the measures being taken to arrest growth of revenue expenditure and pensions).
• So in 2028, out of an $8 Billion CAPEX, Indian Army shouldn't find it particularly hard to shell out $ 2.7 Billion. I would say funding is not the issue here.

As I said, ideally, I would definitely want our Army to replace the T-72M1s on one to one basis, but I'm still not sure if we'll be able to afford that, because just like our budget, the price is only going to rise as the years go.
Secondly, do we really need to maintain such a massive tank fleet of over 4000 MBTs when it is quite evident from recent conflicts in Nagorno-Karabakh and Libya that tanks and AFVs are becoming increasingly vulnerable to loitering munitions and attack drones??
And thirdly, 3200/44 would leave the army with a total of ~72 armored regiments. Think they will manage just fine with 4-8 fewer regiments due to the vastly improved quality of the new vehicles.

 

[Bleh]

when it is quite evident from recent conflicts in Nagorno-Karabakh and Libya that tanks and AFVs are becoming increasingly vulnerable to loitering munitions and attack drones??

Those are shit tanks tho... Deathtrap models all. Airburst APS & mounted jammers may take care of most such threats in cases of properly equipped armies.

Like we don't even surely know if BVR missiles are going to be a dud in actual combat between competent enemies, equipped with radar warning recievers & jammers. Indo-Pak conflict of 27th Feb strongly pointed at it.

 

[Lonewolf]

Those are shit tanks tho... Deathtrap models all. Airburst APS & mounted jammers may take care of most such threats in cases of properly equipped armies.

Like we don't even surely know if BVR missiles are going to be a dud in actual combat between competent enemies, equipped with radar warning recievers & jammers. Indo-Pak conflict of 27th Feb strongly pointed at it.

Drdo have developed a 1500 hp engine , also the new smoothbore is in work , but one thing i am most concerned about , integration of dircm type tech for protection against atgm , do drdo have some some work done or not on it , also we need to integrate atgm to it ?

 

[ArgonPrime]

Those are shit tanks tho... Deathtrap models all.

Of course but shitty or not, each and every MBT/AFV is vulnerable to top attack munitions.

Airburst APS & mounted jammers may take care of most such threats in cases of properly equipped armies.

True but an APS can be overwhelmed if faced with a saturation attack. A modern NATO standard MBT costs anywhere between 7-10 million USD whereas a top-of-the-line ATGM like the Hellfire or Javelin comes at a unit price below 100k. So, if I can fire 5-6 missiles at your tank and destroy it, then it will still be worth it. Heck, you probably wouldn't need that many missiles if your infantry can properly co-ordinate with your UCAVs - just have your infantry fire a bunch of cheaper anti-tank rockets like Panzerfaust 3 or Vamir at each MBT to saturate its sensors and then finish it off with one or two simultaneous launchings of ATGMs.
Secondly, as you had pointed out earlier, APS sensors can undoubtedly be destroyed by air burst artillery fire, so there is that thing to consider as well.

Like we don't even surely know if BVR missiles are going to be a dud in actual combat between competent enemies, equipped with radar warning recievers & jammers. Indo-Pak conflict of 27th Feb strongly pointed at it.

Of course but unlike that, we have a much clearer picture when it comes to ATGMs.

 

[Bleh]

Of course but shitty or not, each and every MBT/AFV is vulnerable to top attack munitions.

True but an APS can be overwhelmed if faced with a saturation attack. A modern NATO standard MBT costs anywhere between 7-10 million USD whereas a top-of-the-line ATGM like the Hellfire or Javelin comes at a unit price below 100k. So, if I can fire 5-6 missiles at your tank and destroy it, then it will still be worth it. Heck, you probably wouldn't need that many missiles if your infantry can properly co-ordinate with your UCAVs - just have your infantry fire a bunch of cheaper anti-tank rockets like Panzerfaust 3 or Vamir at each MBT to saturate its sensors and then finish it off with one or two simultaneous launchings of ATGMs.
Secondly, as you had pointed out earlier, APS sensors can undoubtedly be destroyed by air burst artillery fire, so there is that thing to consider as well.

Of course but unlike that, we have a much clearer picture when it comes to ATGMs.

All true... But as Lindybeige once said, "All tanks had been vulnerable at all era".

Seriously. Now it's nothing special & present day tank losses are actually some of the lowest in history! There was never a time that tanks weren't extremely vulnerable.
Either 88mm or 16pounders, Panzerfaust or PIAT, magnetic mines or fucking dogs rigged with explosives, recoiless rifles & RPGs, autocannon or rockets from sky, ATGM or cluster-bombs & now IEDs or loitering drones.

 

[ArgonPrime]

@ArgonPrime the cross section of armata you have shared could an exaggerated work by some amateur fanboy (great if it's accurate). I say that because conflicting alternative versions exist.

View attachment 78023

This does not invalidate my earlier point at all. Here, look -

As you can see, in order to take a shot at the LFP, an enemy gunner would have to aim below the green line, which will guarantee that the round will impact at a downward angle, thereby significantly increasing the LOS thickness as shown with the example of the blue line that is intended to show a possible impact angle of a penetrator rod.
And moreover, if the enemy tank finds itself in an elevated position vis-a-vis the Armata ( you do not and can not expect to fight on completely level ground, there will always be bumps and dips even on seemingly flat terrain), then it will make the job that much more difficult, heck if the elevation is too much, then the gunner wouldn't even be able to aim at the LFP at all. So, out of all present-day MBTs, I would say this thing has undoubtedly got the best frontal hull protection and crew protection in general. Of course, the sides are still vulnerable, but then again, that's true for every other tank there is.

And unfortunately, I can't find that photo of T-72 & T-14 side by side, but it may be more evident in this scaled work... That LFP is as big as in LeClerc or Challenger

Yeah but first of all, it'd a lot more difficult to hit the LFP in Armata as compared to the other two you mentioned, and even then the Armata has still a much thicker lower glacis plate which is very well angled and well hidden by the upper glacis plate whereas in LeClerc or the Chally, it's just a simple RHA plate which is rather flat and exposed.

everything below the crews chest is behind a max-500mm thick plate!

Yeah, a 500mm plate that is very well sloped and well-covered by the upper glacis.
And it's more like below the waist (if we are to take your version to be as the correct one) or maybe even below the knee if we consider the impact angle.

And if we are to go by the above version, then it would skew the balance even more in favor of this tank even further.

Russian for marketing this as the next gen shit, but it could just as well turn out to be the new glasscannon deathtrap like T-72. Not only is the turret puffball, ANY penetration is 100% guaranteed death of crew.

Nah, it won't be a death trap like T-72M1 as the crew is completely isolated from the carousel by a solid armored bulkhead. It's even better protected than the Abrams in some regards because unlike in Abrams, you do not need to open a blast door to access the ammo, which leaves the tank somewhat vulnerable for a period of time.

Now, all said and done, I'd have preferred if they had mounted the magazine in the bustle rather than the hull as in its present configuration, a penetrating shot is definitely going to destroy the turret even if the crew survives.

 

[ArgonPrime]

Actually the lower glacis is composite armour, but intended solely to manage HEAT rounds.

You sure about that?? Doesn't seem like there is any composite in there.

FSAPDS can't even ignite the wet stowed compartmentalised ammo & will go right through. Noticed since WW2 Shermans experienced that.

I know, I know, but what about the MkI??
By the way, I doubt a penetrating shot will pierce all the way through the ammo racks into the crew compartment, again, due to the downward trajectory of the incoming projectile will have to take. In my opinion, it will likely lodge inside the ammo bunker.

Last I heard they were working on an propellant that would only exploded by electric pulses... you can throw it in fire but it wont to go off, I think Semtex behaves like that too.

That'd be neat.

 

[Bleh]

@ArgonPrime that don't show any of the composite armour, just the inner plates below, but lower glacis is about 100mm thick & there's a layer of something between the two plates.

Arjun's LFP should become like this I think. Should be achievable without drastic weight increase, but by opening up the lower parts a bit.

 

[ArgonPrime]

@ArgonPrime Ok agreed.

Arjuns front plates should look like this I think. Should be achievable without drastoc weight increase.

View attachment 78122

That's actually quite good. Only if our IITians could figure that out.

All true... But as Lindybeige once said, "All tanks had been vulnerable at all era".

Can't argue with Lindy.

Seriously. Now it's nothing special & present day tank losses are actually some of the lowest in history!

Yeah, about that, I'm pretty sure that's got more to do with the fact that we haven't seen such huge pitched battles like Kursk or Aracourt in a long long time. When was the last time two near peers went into full-blown conflict after the Yom Kippur War??

There was never a time that tanks weren't extremely vulnerable.

It's just that they've become more vulnerable these days and this trend is gonna continue till mobile laser and EMP counter-drone/loitering munitions systems become widely available.

 

[Karthi]

Prime Minister Narendra Modi will symbolically hand over the first 118 Arjun Mark 1A main battle tanks (MBT) to army chief General MM Naravane at a function in Chennai on Sunday. This will clear the path for the army to formally place orders for the production of the final batch of Arjun MBTs worth Rs 6,600 crore.

The political push for the Arjun tanks follows the February 3 award of a contract for 83 LCA Tejas aircraft to Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL). The contract is worth Rs 48,000 crore- the largest placed on any Indian defence firm and was cleared by the Cabinet Committee on Security on January 13. The government has identified indigenous contracts as being a key to jump start indigenous industry and achieve self-sufficiency in defence, the Atmanirbhar Bharat initiative launched last April.

Defence Minister Rajnath Singh said at Aero India last week that the government would reduce imports by $2 billion (Rs 14,000 crore) by the end of 2022.

The Arjun has been designed by the DRDO’s Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE) and DRDO Chairman Satheesh Reddy will hand the first Arjun Mark 1A to Prime Minister Modi. The tanks will be produced by the OFB’s Heavy Vehicles Factory Avadi and the first batch of five MBTs will be handed over to the army within 30 months of signing of the contract.

The Army currently operates two regiments of 124 Arjun Mark 1s which are positioned in Rajasthan. In November, Prime Minister Modi symbolically rode an Arjun tank in Longewala, where he celebrated Diwali with the troops.
The CVRDE swiftly completed development of the Arjun Mark-2 in two years, by 2012. The Rs 6,600 crore order for 118 tanks was cleared by the DAC in 2014 but the order was not placed. The project was in a limbo since 2015 as the army focused on ordering more T-90 medium tanks from Russia. In 2019, the army ordered an additional 464 T-90s worth close to Rs 14,000 crore.

The Arjun Mark-2 was renamed the Arjun Mark 1A in 2018 because the army said it was yet to meet all its requirements like the ability to fire a missile from its main gun and a battlefield management system. The Arjun Mark 1A finally cleared all trials in 2020 and has been awaiting an order since then. These tanks are also being assembled at the HVF Avadi.

End of the Arjun series

DRDO officials believe this order of 118 tanks will be the last orders for the 68-ton Arjun. The army’s refocus on the northern borders with China following the ten-month standoff with the PLA will mean a diminished appetite for heavy tanks like the 68-ton Arjun.

The army wants light tanks that weigh between 20-25 tons and medium tanks that weigh between 30 and 50 tons to equip its armored forces.

“Light and medium tanks have an advantage in multi-spectrum deployability, employability and capability in the varied terrain that the army operates in,” says Lt General AB Shivane, former Director General mechanised forces.

The Indian Army had already set its sights on acquiring light and medium tanks even before the PLA moved into eastern Ladakh with its mechanised columns including tanks and infantry combat vehicles. Army officials cite the Arjun’s 68-ton weight as the reason it has limited mobility along roads and bridges along the rugged northern areas. The requirement for light tanks which could operate in the mountains is at least a decade old, it was revived more recently after the PLA’s Type 15 light tanks appeared on the Tibetan plateau.

Armored vehicle experts say the experience gained from the production of 118 Arjun Mark 1As will help the development of future armored vehicles. “Over the next five years Indian defence industry will be entirely self-sufficient in all aspects of armored vehicles, from engines to tranmissions and gunner sights and electro-hydraulic gun control systems. This will allow us to roll out future combat vehicles at a much faster rate,” says S Sivakumar, former Director, CVRDE.

The test case for this would be army programs like the Future Ready Combat Vehicle (FRCV) and the Future Infantry Combat Vehicle (FICV). The FRCV is to replace the Indian army’s fleet of nearly 3000 T-72 and T-90 tanks while the FICV will replace the nearly 1600 Russian BMP-2 Infantry Combat Vehicles in service.

 

[ArgonPrime]

View attachment 78137

They could at least remove the crew hatches in the turret. And no composite armor to be seen in the LFP while the crew is to be positioned inside the hull. @Bleh

 

[Cruise missile]

They could at least remove the crew hatches in the turret. And no composite armor to be seen in the LFP while the crew is to be positioned inside the hull. @Bleh

T14 is also having hatch which looks more vulnerable, regarding armour it's going to be modular.

 

[ArgonPrime]

T14 is also having hatch which looks more vulnerable,

Come again??

regarding armour it's going to be modular.

Not the LFP, it wouldn't.............. rest assured!!