Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[ppgj]

some useful info -

The tank incorporates GPS-based navigation systems and sophisticated frequency hopping radios. The state-of-the-art Battlefield Management System, developed by DRDO allows it to network with other fighting units. In a search and engage operation, referred to as the "Wolfpack/Hunter Network", several Arjuns can monitor an opponent and its moves, and eliminate it in a chase or ambuscade.

It is protected by a laser warning system and smoke launchers for counter measures. To further enhance combat survivability, the tank has an auto-fire detection and suppression system. Ammunition is also stowed in watertight containers to reduce the risk of fire.

Arjun incorporates heavy composite armour and significant crew protection measures, including ammunition separated from the crew, and blow off panels on the turret bustle, and an integrated fire detection and suppression system.

The typical crew consists of a Gunner, Commander, Loader and Driver.

The Arjun also incorporates nuclear, biological and chemical protection.

Explosive Reactive Armour (ERA) panels can be added, though the current Kanchan armour is deemed sufficient for the time being. The turret and glacis are heavily armoured and use "Kanchan" (gold) composite armour. A new honeycomb design, non-explosive and non-energetic reactive armour (NERA) armour is being tested on the Arjun and is reported to be working perfectly.

The engine and transmission are provided by MTU and Renk respectively. The engine generates 1,400 hp and is integrated with an Indian turbocharger and gearbox. A local transmission is under trials and will ultimately replace the Renk supplied unit.

The tracks which were being supplied by Diehl are now being manufactured by L&T, an Indian company.

The cooling pack has been designed for desert operations.

The Arjun has a lower ground pressure than the lighter T-72, due to its design and offers a lower silhouette than comparable western tanks.

It also has a state-of-the-art hydro-pneumatic suspension, which coupled with its stabilisation and fire control system, allows superb first-hit probability. The ride comfort of the tank is highly praised though it makes the system more maintenance-intensive and expensive.

http://www.domain-b.com/defence/general/20090526_arjun_main_battle_tank.html

The DRDO's Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE) in Avadi, has taken up the development of a Defensive Aids System for armoured fighting vehicles (AFVs) to enhance the survivability of tanks against anti-tank guided missile (ATGM) threats and to reduce the probability of detection by target acquisition systems.

Under this project, two major systems -- an Advanced Laser Warning and Countermeasure System (ALWCS) and Mobile Camouflage System (MCS) are being developed. MCS is to provide multispectral signature management of the vehicle to reduce the vehicle signature against all known sensors and smart munitions. MCS system has been developed in collaboration with Barracuda Camouflage Ltd, Gurgaon. The system has been integrated on MBT Arjun and the performance evaluation trials have been successfully completed. The methodology and the technologies can be adopted for any AFV platform. ALWCS system comprises laser warning system, IR jammer, and aerosol smoke grenade system. This is being developed jointly with Elbit Systems Ltd, Israel. The system will be integrated on MBT Arjun and performance evaluation trials are expected during summer 2009.

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/03/mbt-arjuns-new-defensive-aid-system.html

 

[notinlove]

PPGJ Don't you think too many things are under trials or under development? don't you think this can be one of the reason why the army is still not fully comfortable with arjun. and don't you think we need to change the turret design as it is obsolete? please share your views
another thing that i would like to ask anybody who would care to explain . can the same BMS as used on the arjun be fitted on the T-90 too?

 

[Agantrope]

BMS in Arjun can be fitted with in theT-90?? also the Kanchan Armour??

 

[ppgj]

PPGJ Don't you think too many things are under trials or under development?

nil,

it is a natural progression to any machine. you don't get any machine anywhere in the world which takes into account all possibilities of an unknown future. hence all machines go through incremental upgrades as technologies become available and are mastered. the same holds good for T-90 or MBT Arjun.

take the BMS. it is already there and which will be fine tuned down the line. but the army is still in the process of networking its assets. it will be of use only in the coming time.

"ACCCS is the artillery component of the TAC C3I grid, which is the first step of the Army to acquire the capability of network-centric warfare at the tactical level," they said.

http://www.defenseworld.net/go/defe...duct network-centric artillery system&id=3165

don't you think this can be one of the reason why the army is still not fully comfortable with arjun.

hardly if you go by our army's tantrums. MBT Arjun is considered among equals among similar heavy tanks including Abrams.

i have posted this before in full. will give the link again. check for yourself - http://frontierindia.net/dissimilar-combat-arjun-mbt-vs-t-90s-specs

on almost all parameters, Arjun scores over T-90.

and don't you think we need to change the turret design as it is obsolete? please share your views

it can be changed along the way if need be. remember Arjun is the result of ARMY's GSQR. check - http://frontierindia.net/history-of-arjun-tank-development

again, i have posted this before.

another thing that i would like to ask anybody who would care to explain . can the same BMS as used on the arjun be fitted on the T-90 too?

i am not sure. may be possible. strange thing about army is they want DRDO's help in making T-90 better!! while all included Arjun is a NO for them inspite of it being better.

 

[kuku]

This is for Those People Who think that the Armour on the T-90 and T-72 is just a Bar of Butter and would be sliced through by anything .


This is an article from Jane's 1997. Could not post the original link as it appears to have been taken offline.
Some might argue that the tests were on old tanks and the penetrator technology has advanced from then onwards but then Armour technology also has not been standing still kontact-5 made way for Kaktus and then Kaktus for relikt.

During the tests we used only the weapons which existed with NATO armies during the last decade of the Cold War

From your link, thats could be primarily a 105mm gun from the 80s, armour and ammunition had moved on since then, so what relevance does that report have on the current scenario in India?

Not necessarily true. Only Russian tanks can handle the weight penalty without compromising its effectiveness by a large degree. At the same time the heavier western tanks cannot handle adding more weight. M1Abrams are a different beast all together because of the use of Depleted Uranium in the armour. Even the Challenger-2s come out with ERA when fighting in cities. Even the Israeli Merkavas used ERA in the Arab Israeli wars. So, whenever a war comes up the countries can justify the use of ERA away from the ambit of budget pressures.

Adding weight depends on the power to weight ratio and ground pressure, which is roughly the same in western and Russian tanks

Arjun is more than T-90, 24 hp/tonne vs 21hp/tonne, in terms of ground pressure Arjuns is Ground 0.84 kg/sq.cm. and T-90 has 0.91 kg/sq.cm, so by that data it seems T-90 is worst suited for any weight penalty.

Here is some more info
Arjun took hits from a T-72, and T-90 took hits from a T-80 .... now i am not saying that arjun's armour is inferior ...but saying that arjun can take hits from t-72 does not make a case that the T-90's armour is inferior to Arjun and moreover The T-90 can Take Hits and Still Roll and which seemed to be the gold standard in armour for some members, also in arjun tests it was never claimed that arjun could take hits and still roll on it just stated that arjun could survive hits from a T-72 which could mean that the crew could survive or anything it still doesn't say that the arjun was able to roll on and flatten the other tank.

Taking a hit and rolling depends upon the amount of damage the hit does, if you get hit on your tracks there is no way you can move without repairs, what are you taking about, if the T-90 takes a hit the ERA explodes, which can cause crew members to get injured by fragmentation of the inner wall as a responce of ERAs explosion, and any tank which suffers a hit which doesnot kill its crew or damages its systems is going to roll.

from your link

fired from T-80U MBT at a distance of 1,500m, the most likely round is 3BM42

If these types of fantastic sourceless articles suit your fancy the Arjun stood up to latest available Russian and Israeli kinetic penetrators at point blank range, not from 1500 meters away.

 

[notinlove]

From your link, thats could be primarily a 105mm gun from the 80s, armour and ammunition had moved on since then, so what relevance does that report have on the current scenario in India?

I wish you would pay more attention.Please read more closely before embarking on your journey to disparage everything related to russian tanks.

When fitted to the T-72A1 and B1 the 'heavy' ERA made them immune to the DU (Depleted Uranium) penetrators of the M829A1 APFSDS (used by the 120 mm guns of the Cold War era US M1 Abrams tanks), which are among the most formidable of current tank gun projectiles
http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/showthread.php?7-Arjun-News-and-Discussions/page48

This is from my previous post.
Now read this.

Al-Khalid also fires a Pakistani DU round, the Naiza 125 mm DU round.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Khalid_(tank)

See anything alike?

Taking a hit and rolling depends upon the amount of damage the hit does, if you get hit on your tracks there is no way you can move without repairs,

So you do agree that if hit at the right spot even the arjun would be rendered uselss, as opposed to your previous arguments that it would keep rolling on and flatten everything?

what are you taking about, if the T-90 takes a hit the ERA explodes, which can cause crew members to get injured by fragmentation of the inner wall as a responce of ERAs explosion, and any tank which suffers a hit which doesnot kill its crew or damages its systems is going to roll.

You went on to wiki read a couple of lines about ERA and decided that the armour is in itself a danger to the crew inside, maybe you forgot to read about the anti neutron or kevlar layers installed inside the tanks which does not let the inner wall to fragment.Moreover the ERA plates are made so that most the power of the explosion is directed towards the outside and not inside.

from your link

If these types of fantastic sourceless articles suit your fancy the Arjun stood up to latest available Russian and Israeli kinetic penetrators at point blank range, not from 1500 meters away.

Again please go through the link, the source is provided in that article, the tests were official russian army tests, the data is provided by a Lt. col of the russian army and the name of the testing institution is also given. if these are Fantastic sources , then i would like you to show me a less fantastic source which claims that the arjun stood all those blows.

 

[notinlove]

A plan for the Arjun!

Just a few clarifications to put my recent three-article series on Indian tanks in context.

1. I think that the conclusion that some visitors are drawing --- that everything Russian is bad --- amounts to overreaction to my articles. As one critic of the articles correctly posted, Russia has provided us systems that nobody else was willing to provide at prices that nobody else could match. Even it that was in the past, and Russia today adopts a far more hard-nosed, where-are-the-dollars approach towards arms sales to India, one would be ill-advised to forget history.

For example, one visitor posted about my article: “Did you read the parts that establish that the T-90 is at worst a piece of junk, or at best as good/bad as the obsolete T-72?” Well, I’d just point out that you are reading more into my account of the T-90 deal than I actually said. I certainly said that the deal was tailored to bypass parliamentary opposition, India ended up getting an under-equipped T-90 tank, important tank systems failed could not withstand exposure to the Indian environment, there were problems in transferring technology, and we have not yet managed to get the tank upgraded to the level that it should have been acquired in.

All that is true, yes! But also remember that, compared to the T-72, the T-90 is a much better tank. And, whether you like it or not, the T-90 will be in service with the Indian Army till at least 2040, maybe even 2050.

2. I also think that anyone who argues: scrap all Russian equipment and go Indian is fantasizing. Russian equipment is still the mainstay of our mechanised forces and, even if we adopt a conscious policy of Indianisation, it will be decades before Russian equipment serves out its life. Since we have to live with Russian systems for a long, long time, we need to identify which tanks we could phase out first, in what time frame we could retire them, and what we can upgrade and retain in service for a longer period.

3. The answer, in my opinion, will depend upon doubling the rate of retirement of the obsolescent T-72s. One replacement stream is the T-90, being produced at the HVF, Avadi. A second stream of Arjuns must supplement this, for which the following broad process must begin:

(a) Increase Arjun tank production on an expanded assembly line, at the rate of 30, 40, and then 50 tanks per year in 2011, 2012 and 2013 respectively. Task CVRDE to ready the Arjun Mark II by 2013. By 2015 the Arjun production line at HVF MUST roll out 62 Arjun Mark II tanks per year (i.e. one regiment at full scale, including reserve tanks). By 2018, the Arjun Mark III must roll out. Each of these upgrades must have limited and realistic improvements, identified not from glossy magazines but through operational usage by Indian Army regiments.

(b) Alongside the Arjun Improvement Programme (AIP), which will handle the upgrade to Mark II and Mark III standards, work must commence by 2012 on the Future MBT programme. Two consortiums must compete in creating the design: a CVRDE-led consortium that can draw on the Arjun experience. And a private industry-led consortium, which is granted full access to the Arjun design experience, as well as to any other resources that they choose. The private industry consortium must be fully funded by the MoD, their budget in line with what the CVRDE-led consortium is permitted to spend.

(c) As Arjun tanks roll out, T-72M regiments must convert to the Arjun, those with older tanks first. The conversion will serve a two-fold purpose: firstly, the T-72 regiments that first convert to Arjuns, i.e. 4-5 regiments by 2015, need not be upgraded with TIFCS, etc. Secondly, the introduction of Arjuns into service, and the setting up of Arjun instructional cells at the Armoured Corps Centre & School, Ahmednagar, will start spreading an Arjun culture into an army where the opposition to the Arjun is based on an outdated impression of the tank --- on what it was, rather than what it is.

(d) The remaining T-72s need to be upgraded on priority. The ten-year-old process to upgrade them needs to be pushed through, if necessary by a high-voltage, public resignation by whoever the DGMF happens to be. By doing so, that officer will have done more for his arm than any of his recent predecessors; and will be remembered for much more than just “being a good chap”.

(e) By 2015, the DRDO, in collaboration with private industry, must produce and operationalise an Arjun Bridge Layer Tank (BLTs), an Arjun Trawl Tank, and the specialised maintenance vehicles that will be provided to each Arjun regiment. Production lines must cater for adequate scales of these.

(f) The process needs to be set in motion now for creating two Arjun overhaul facilities in the private sector. The first fifteen Arjuns will soon be due for overhaul and the HVF has proved unable to even handle the T-72 overhaul. Just as an RFI has been floated for creating T-72 overhaul facilities, the Arjun overhaul facilities must be kicked off immediately.
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2010/02/plan-for-arjun.html

@PPgj
This is the view i agree with, i suppose you also meant the same .... if otherwise please lemme know.

 

[kuku]

I wish you would pay more attention.Please read more closely before embarking on your journey to disparage everything related to russian tanks.
This is from my previous post.
Now read this.

See anything alike?

Well i said they could be, they are not, so how is this relevant to the Indian Scenario?

You need tank gun and KE round figure to judge the effectiveness, the technology has evolved from the 1980s. Just because Pakistan has a KE penetrator doesnot translate into judging the penetrators effectiveness based on tests for 1980 ammo and gun technology.

And that is what i am asking, how are figures from 1980s relevant to 2010?

So you do agree that if hit at the right spot even the arjun would be rendered uselss, as opposed to your previous arguments that it would keep rolling on and flatten everything?

Any tank hit in the right place will be rendered useless, there is no difference here between T-90, Arjun, M1A1 or any other tank.

Your arguments of rolling after a hit are childish, if a explosive doesnot penetrate the tank and all the systems are working there is no question of tanks capability to carry on with operation.

You went on to wiki read a couple of lines about ERA and decided that the armour is in itself a danger to the crew inside, maybe you forgot to read about the anti neutron or kevlar layers installed inside the tanks which does not let the inner wall to fragment.Moreover the ERA plates are made so that most the power of the explosion is directed towards the outside and not inside.

from your link

Spall liners have been around for a long time same things were done to counter HESH rounds yet injuries happen there is no fool proof solution, explosive reactions (shockwave and fragments) of the ERA are one of the reasons for development of nonexplosive reactive armour.

Again please go through the link, the source is provided in that article, the tests were official russian army tests, the data is provided by a Lt. col of the russian army and the name of the testing institution is also given. if these are Fantastic sources , then i would like you to show me a less fantastic source which claims that the arjun stood all those blows.

Data provided by
Lt.Col. Vladimir Karpov

This is the only thing mentioned about source which is hardly official army test results.

 

[notinlove]

Well i said they could be, they are not, so how is this relevant to the Indian Scenario?

You need tank gun and KE round figure to judge the effectiveness, the technology has evolved from the 1980s. Just because Pakistan has a KE penetrator doesnot translate into judging the penetrators effectiveness based on tests for 1980 ammo and gun technology.

And that is what i am asking, how are figures from 1980s relevant to 2010?

That was Advanced US tech of the 1980's and as we all know any advanced US tech makes its way into subcontinent only after a space of 15-20 years, moreover it makes sense as i have shown you that pakistani's also use DU shells. also in the second article that i posted it clearly shows that T-90 took hits from T-80 and survived This makes IMMENSE sense in indian scenario because pakistan also uses T-80.

Any tank hit in the right place will be rendered useless, there is no difference here between T-90, Arjun, M1A1 or any other tank.

Your arguments of rolling after a hit are childish, if a explosive doesnot penetrate the tank and all the systems are working there is no question of tanks capability to carry on with operation.

Thank you, you are probably only one of the few people who have acknowledged this fact and Sir this rolling after a hit argument is definitely not my argument,if you look at this thread from the start you would find this argument used quite a number of times to support the arjuns armour which i also find childish because my point is any tank can be rendered useless if hit by the right weapon at the right point which now i know you also agree with.

Spall liners have been around for a long time same things were done to counter HESH rounds yet injuries happen there is no fool proof solution, explosive reactions (shockwave and fragments) of the ERA are one of the reasons for development of nonexplosive reactive armour.

what i am tryin to say here is, that yes though the ERA explosion causes shock waves, it does not cause enough shock waves(of the magnitude of a HESH round) to cause fragmentation inside the tank which is strong enough to go through current generation spall liners ,you can guess this by the fact that current generation spall liners have even rendered HESH rounds futile that is why everybody except the british has moved on to APFSDS,moreover in an ERA tile the lower plate is significantly more thicker than the upper tile hence the blast waves tend to go outward as compared to inwards.

This is the only thing mentioned about source which is hardly official army test results.

it also gives the name of the testing institution.
ATW Testing Center NPO "Geodezia"

clearly states Data provided by, don't you think if the data was not provided by an official source and the site was providing wrong data claiming it came from a government institution then the testing institution would have done something about it?
i don't know how much more official can it get.

 

[p2prada]

Like what?

In case we had to close arjun and start a new MBT development. As was said.

It would be more feasible after completing the Arjun up to Mk2 standard. Perhaps set new design principles and go for a new generation tank.

No the research is not locked up its reflected in the companies subsequent projects. The money is paid by the government, i doubt how the private companies will not prefer that.

The YF-23 design has not been used in any subsequent projects till date. Private companies work at a profit/loss POV. Researching and developing the YF-23 and its subsequent cancellation meant the private companies share prices were unchanged, while the competitor, LM's prices soared. Sure, there was no loss to the company, but there was no gain either. So, such ventures come at a big risk.

Dont play sacrasm with me, for the T-90 we are importing the whole thing at the same costs, and same can be done for Arjun, we will just call it indigenous.

Then what is the point of supporting a home grown project if the engine, transmission, electronics are all imported. So, we simply have to induct Arjun for the sake of inducting and make a lot of fanboys happy while delivering a similar capability against a cheaper T-90.

APS has to be installed on both Arjun and T-90 and the multiple options available are equally advanced. Engine for the T-90 has to be upgraded, otherwise current imported ones and their domestic versions are available for both the tanks.

Arjun has no immediate plans for an APS. The T-90 APS is coming. The Arjun engine is still under development while a T-90 engine upgrade is just around the corner.

BMS as a system, will involve several types of vehicles, not just T-90 or Arjun. No it will not have that system soon, the contracts a long one including development for installation. And the same can be done for Arjun under the same contract.

The BMS is still not working to your specifications. The present system has GPS and only helps with communicating with the other tank commanders. That's about it. The one you are talking about has not been implemented or tested. The T-90 has a similar system in place too. The NCW modules will have to come out of our workshops or off the shelf from Israel or the US.

you need the contract for any installations first, then comes the installation.

The contract can be signed and implemented within a year or two. It is just electronics.

No its not the best one available in the market, and there are plenty of options, the reason it doesnot matter is because they are imported for both types., T-90 ERA is definatly not the best one just by being one in the market, and there has to be constant upgrade on the ERA, as developments in the ATGM missile technology keep on rendering older types irrelevant in a modern battlefield.

The kaktus is not the best in the world....agreed. But, can you give me another option that is available to us. No country will give ERA. The DRDO ERA is far from ready. Even ToT on the Kaktus was denied.

From all credible information i have seen there is no T-90M with Kanchan armour, what you see is all that exists with a tender on APS under processing.

It is part of the manufacturing process. The T-90s coming out of Avadi will have an advanced derivative of the Kanchan that was supposedly developed with Israeli help for weight reduction. This was confirmed in the Ural defence expo some years ago.

The T-90 as it stands now, right now, today, is a tank from 1990 and not a day younger, its a whole generation behind.

A T-90 with a new armour, new electronics and higher capabilities as against the T-72. The Arjun with a new armour, new electronics and higher capabilities as against the T-72. The T-90 is cheaper to build, maintain and employ. So, there is only one obvious choice.

Indigenous IP translates into spending the money for upgrade at home,

Haha. Now you are being sarcastic.

doing so without releasing a tender which takes time or price negotiations which take time, increasing the production numbers without price negotiations, and the Russians have already delayed the production of T-90 in India, right now even adding a new type of weapon requires Russian consulting as they are more at home with their tank and its FCS.

I highly doubt the truth of that statement. We use ToT as an excuse for our own short comings in all our defence deals till date. The Russians never provided ToT on the armour and their stand was made clear even before the project was implemented. An indigenous armour was hence created. The time delay was due to various studies on the feasibility of the project. Then the Israelis popped in and helped us out.

There is no added advantage of joining future tank projects with Russia for developing tanks, we have already seen that we prefer other player for all the high tech parts like APS, BMS, communication equipment, all-electric drive, drive by wire, upgrading to mil std-1553/1773, NWS architecture and implementation, so the question remains of engine, armour, transmission etc. where we have the capability to improve in private sector in the coming 20 years, so why bother .

You are a bit too optimistic about our capabilities. If you are suggesting we can make a better tank in the coming 20 years, then let's have DRDO forcing tanks down the Army's throat after 20 years and not now.

I think you forget that the sandwich Armour is much thicker on the Arjun and And it has shown documented resistance better than the T-72/90.

We do not know that aspect. The T-90 Kanchan derivative is supposed to be really good too. It is a more advanced version of the Arjun.

ERA is not exactly the cutting edge technology you make it out to be, mostly to compensate from vulnerability its certainly not a silver bullet with the advances in tandem warheads this game will keep on going to NERA, Electric RA and the only way to stay ahead is to have more facilities like the HEMRL, the very advantage of sandwich armour is the ease of installation of other options (ERA is a custom made add on tile). The very lack of this parameter in the military requirements for the last 10 years should show this to you.

T-90 has already seen two ERA upgrades and will see more. Arjun is yet to be seen with even a locally developed one.

To say that Arjun is not at the same level as T-90 because the latter has to employ RA to compensate for the armour is not true.

Er. So, you say a 2 tier protection is not better than a 1 tier protection? Even the Abrams is being upgraded with ERA due to the proliferation of cheap Russian RPG-29s.

The same tender for upgrading to APS that can be implemented on T-90 and arjun with a third party installation, and the tender is yet to process.

The T-90 APS tender has been signed last year and the first batches will be reaching soon. The Arjun does not even have a APS plan as of now.

The biggest advantage T-90 has right now is in terms of immediate war fighting capability, its already in numbers and serving.

Yes. And this is the most important reason for why the Arjun should not be inducted. The Army has made it clear it needs a whole new generation of tanks 2020 onwards. Inducting the Arjun now and junking it for a new tank only 10 years down the line will not give a major capability to IA's fighting ability.

However being shortsighted often leads to loosing in terms of the bigger picture, right now our economy sits at a point where the next 20 years have a positive chance of tremendous development, to defer the process of going indigenous right now in fields that we can afford to will leave us in the same situation 20 years from now, and many military organisations have carried out similar changes with success. All the tanks inducted and upgraded today will serve for the next 20-30 years.

True. But, why induct a tank to replace a tank of similar capability when we are aiming for a 4th Generation tank post 2020, only 10 years later. The addition of T-90s and maybe the T-95s will completely destroy the Arjun project and that includes the Mk2. DRDO is better off working on a new tank with foreign partners for future requirements. But, completing the Mk2 would mean DRDO is in a better position to undertake a new project.

 

[p2prada]

Adding weight depends on the power to weight ratio and ground pressure, which is roughly the same in western and Russian tanks

Arjun is more than T-90, 24 hp/tonne vs 21hp/tonne, in terms of ground pressure Arjuns is Ground 0.84 kg/sq.cm. and T-90 has 0.91 kg/sq.cm, so by that data it seems T-90 is worst suited for any weight penalty.

That's why a new engine upgrade is required. Also, the ground pressure ratio of a heavy tank and a medium tank cannot be compared.

A fat man will have lesser pressure compared to a thin man due to the area of the buttocks. But, it does not mean the fat man is thinner than the thin man simply because he exerts lesser pressure.

A bridge than can handle 50 tons cannot handle the Arjun. This has nothing to do with Ground Pressure.

 

[ppgj]

@PPgj
This is the view i agree with, i suppose you also meant the same .... if otherwise please lemme know.

(just the other day you were calling him an imbecile!! surprise you agree with Ajai shukla now. )

anyway on a serious note,

Ajai shukla is exactly echoing what i was trying to tell you.

look NIL, i or other people here are not saying T-90 is bad. what we are saying is Arjun is superior to T-90 on most parameters. i gave you the link in my previous reply to you on this. also, Arjun is the result of army's GSQR and not DRDO's fancy. now look at Army's methods adopted to both the tanks.

in the case of Arjun - they dilly dally, delay, manufacture problems by way of sabotage (link given before), refuse trials and scuttle the induction.

in the case of T-90 - just look at the Ajai shukla post which is on the forum. they go for a dumbed down version - to get price advantage - and incrementally add on to get to the final version which is still a long way off. 8 yrs has passed in the bargain. still costs as good as Arjun!! something fishy??? don't you think.

in the case of Arjun - a teething problem is blown out (remember they only created the problem!!) of proportion inspite of being set right. Arjun is made to slog more than necessary to prove itself. poor thing still proves itself!!!! albeit with a black box on. enough links on the thread about this. so i wont try finding them.

in the case of T-90 - army has problems too, whether it is air conditioning, FCS failure, indian ammunition not getting fired or even this -

The Indian Army has decided to replace the main commander's sight on all current and future T-90S main battle tanks, and has issued a request for information for this. The T-90's PNK-4S commanders sight, manufactured by Russia's JSC Rostov Optical-Mechanical Plant (ROMZ), has been found to be far below what the Army wants, and it has therefore put out an RFI for an advanced thermal-imager based panoramic night sight

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/08/indian-army-has-decided-to-replace-main.html

still, they brush it under the carpet and coolly go about as if nothing is serious!!

we, who support Arjun, are not doing it for the sake national pride or because we hate russian product. we do, because we want our army to have the best tank presently available. that's it.

at the same time things that have happened can't be undone. so, let's look at the future. what is that future?

T-90 is already in numbers and more or less fresh. they have lot of life still. so can't be replaced.

but what about T-72's? they are old by a loooong shot. what is prudent way of dealing with them? will upgrading all of them take them anywhere? i think not. why? because the tank frame has a life. with whatever upgrades you do to them is not going to make them a T-90. does it mean we don't upgrade any of them? ok, here is where i disagree with Ajai shukla. my points are simple.

even if Arjuns replace T-72's, it will take 10 yrs minimum to do that. hence what i was telling you before.

start replacing the from the oldest lot of T-72's with Arjun progressively. at the same time start upgrading some newest T-72's too. this way you have capabilities of Arjun (which will run side by side with logistics improvement), numbers and a mix of T-90/Arjun/T-72 upg.

doing that you add more capital to the Arjun project so they can bring in futuristic technology into Arjun along the way. you also create more jobs besides adding to india's capabilities to be independant in the defence sector and immune to foreign arm twists.

gift the retired T-72's to friendly countries like Nepal, Srilanka, Bangladesh, Maldives and even some african countries and create a good will for India.

i agree with Ajai Shukla's article except for the T-72 upgrade part because of our lunatic neighbour who is unpredictable. we need to be prepared all the time for any eventuality.

 

[ZOOM]

I read that travese of Arjun turret is 180 degrees, what is the same for T-90s and T-72s.

 

[notinlove]

well,
Lets look at this from the broader perspective,

Army decided to buy T-90's in 2001, let us see where india was in 2001

Armies position: they had just fought a war in 1999 , parliament had been attacked,moreover operation parakram was afoot , tensions were running high between the neighbours, Pakistan just inductited superior T-80UD and army had not inducted any new tank in about 6-7 years.

Political situation : NDA govenment in its previous term had lasted just about 13 months and this was its second term,Huge controversies regarding the army took place after kargil(coffin scam and all) a very dangerous environment to make high profile new deals.

Economic situation : Asian financial crisis followed by the Dot com bubble burst had left the economy rattled, nobody had any clue as to where the economy was headed.

India and the World : Suffice to say the situation was pretty opposite as compared to today , we were under sanctions from the west and nobody except russia and france was willing to help us out.

Arjun Project : Engine overheat , transmission failure , problem with gun sight , problem with fire suppression system , problem with suspension system to name a few also a heavier tank which meant considerable investment in infrastructure.

Indian army went with the best thing it could get a new russian tank noody else would sell anything to us . Nobody could guess at the time that the arjun would magically come around in a space of 7 years , the army made a plan and planned to induct new T-90's to replace old tanks,
They did what should have been done.if anybody thinks that the arjun was better than the T-90 in 2001 he/she is welcome to prove it.they found the thermal imager to be inferior and hence went for the best western imager they could get the catherine from france , though they botched it up by not testing it properly.

What we are not understanding is The army is not buying tanks as of today They were buying them in 2001 and they will be buying them in 2020 , the DRDO missed its first chance of 2001, and the army has invited them to try again in 2020(refrences by the generals to the drdo to make a futuristic mbt), but DRDO has made such a hue and cry that we have fixed it now Buy it(don't you think this behaviour is a bit childish on DRDO's part) imagine if tommorow boeing comes out and says we have made a better plane then the F-35 please cancel the project and buy our planes instead.

Why the Army showed price of T-90 as less?
Well what could have they done, after the coffin scam and economic crisis if they had asked for a tank that costs twice as much as the T-72 then the Deal would have just got stuck in bureaucracy and red tapism , even ajai shukla has said in his most recent article that army did what they did to cut through unnecessary red tapism, we should be thanking them for being brave and doing this , not condemning it.

 

[kuku]

That was Advanced US tech of the 1980's and as we all know any advanced US tech makes its way into subcontinent only after a space of 15-20 years, moreover it makes sense as i have shown you that pakistani's also use DU shells. also in the second article that i posted it clearly shows that T-90 took hits from T-80 and survived This makes IMMENSE sense in indian scenario because pakistan also uses T-80.
Thank you, you are probably only one of the few people who have acknowledged this fact and Sir this rolling after a hit argument is definitely not my argument,if you look at this thread from the start you would find this argument used quite a number of times to support the arjuns armour which i also find childish because my point is any tank can be rendered useless if hit by the right weapon at the right point which now i know you also agree with.

Your provided article in doubt, and if you follow the procses there has been more types of kinetic penetrators, to say that you know the performance of Pakistani ammunition based on a assumption is not something i will like to believe without some sort of explanation, meanwhile the basis of your assumption, that post in military forum contains the incorrect article.

Hi,
I found my hard copy of the article written by Richard Ogorkiewicz for IDR July 1997. In essence the first two paragraphs of the material published on the Sino-defence site are from the article, the remainder is not. Funnily enough, I attended the SMi Armour/Anti-Armour conference in 1997 where Leyland Ness gave his presentation. That's why it sounded so familiar. His information where treated with a mixture of scepticism and concern. Richard Ogorkiewicz treated Mr Ness's information with respect, as it matched material originally released at an earlier syposium at the Royal Military College at Shrivenham by Martin Held, the leading light behind ERA.
So, in conclusion. The material on the Chinese site, or at least the first two paragraphs, is based upon an article published in 1997. The rest of the text on the Chinese site was not written by Richard Ogorkievicz but does represent the views held in 1997 by a defence correspondent called Leyland Ness.
I know Richard Ogorkiewicz and have enormous respect for him. If you look at page 56 of my book "Merkava a History of Israel's Main Battle Tank" you will see a photo of Richard Ogorkiewicz and General Tal kindly given to me by Richard from his private collection. Just to reiterate, he does not belittle Russian equipment, (nor do I) but the material on the Chinese site is in the main, not from his 1997 article.
cheers
Marsh

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forum...-Examination&p=3012608&viewfull=1#post3012608
Many inconsistent views remain in that post, for example the effectiveness of contact-1 reactive armor tiles which were primarily meant for anti HEAT ammunition role, the GAU-8 cannon fires a top attack profile its not supposed to be fired at the frontal armour, the german defence people i have interacted in online forums say that the NVA tanks did not have any ERA, and the DM33 was able to penetrate the tank.
About the rolling after a hit thing, i think its a stupid concept.

what i am tryin to say here is, that yes though the ERA explosion causes shock waves, it does not cause enough shock waves(of the magnitude of a HESH round) to cause fragmentation inside the tank which is strong enough to go through current generation spall liners ,you can guess this by the fact that current generation spall liners have even rendered HESH rounds futile that is why everybody except the british has moved on to APFSDS,moreover in an ERA tile the lower plate is significantly more thicker than the upper tile hence the blast waves tend to go outward as compared to inwards.

http://www.btvt.narod.ru/4/kontakt5_.htm
The russians are not claiming anysuch thing, there is always a risk that any explosion on surface will cause fragmentation on the inside or damage to equipment, there is nothing you can do about it, however its something one has to accept, like faulty ammunition.
The HESH rounds are not futile, they were not as effective as they were before, as in its better to fire a kinetic or HEAT round (better chances of success)You can reduce it but the risk is always there.
You taking about a explosive than is able to negate the speed of a kinetic round to a degree that helps the armour inside absorb rest of the blast, there will be some damage.
In the end its essential for the Soviets to do this as their armour is not thick enough, along with other steps like active defences.

it also gives the name of the testing institution.
ATW Testing Center NPO "Geodezia"
clearly states Data provided by, don't you think if the data was not provided by an official source and the site was providing wrong data claiming it came from a government institution then the testing institution would have done something about it?
i don't know how much more official can it get.

I can right now start a site and register the domain russiaarmytanks, upload a couople of pages claiming information from all sorts of arbit defence people, that does not prove anything, and its not credible, moreover no one can do anything about online information, just go check several civil pakistani defence sites.

 

[kuku]

That's why a new engine upgrade is required. Also, the ground pressure ratio of a heavy tank and a medium tank cannot be compared.

A fat man will have lesser pressure compared to a thin man due to the area of the buttocks. But, it does not mean the fat man is thinner than the thin man simply because he exerts lesser pressure.

A bridge than can handle 50 tons cannot handle the Arjun. This has nothing to do with Ground Pressure.

Till this point i have seen absolutly no information on a uprated engine tender for the tank, probably when it comes it will change the figures, again in the same ballpark.

Bridges made to handle the specific weight of 50 tons, you might find some bridges which can handle 10 tons (OMG lets design a 5 ton tank). Probably looking at the several zones where the tanks have to operate (big plane area with canals and a large plain desert all the canal crossings wired to explode as soon as threatened ) would be better than this argument which is used quite often.

 

[notinlove]

PPgj,

When india bought the T-90 pakistan didn't have anything even remotely close to a panoramic sight or hunter killer ability , thats why we didn't go for it as we were trying to keep the deal cheap at the time,
now that pakistan has got panoramic sight on their AK's we are also going for it , i don't think there is anything wrong with that.

Also , i think you misunderstood something

As far as i can comprehend you me and Mr. shukla in his latest post all agree on what should be done with the T-72's.

 

[p2prada]

Till this point i have seen absolutly no information on a uprated engine tender for the tank, probably when it comes it will change the figures, again in the same ballpark.

Bridges made to handle the specific weight of 50 tons, you might find some bridges which can handle 10 tons (OMG lets design a 5 ton tank). Probably looking at the several zones where the tanks have to operate (big plane area with canals and a large plain desert all the canal crossings wired to explode as soon as threatened ) would be better than this argument which is used quite often.

I was only giving an example on how throwing around non issues will not get us anywhere in our discussions. The T-90 is a medium tank while the Arjun is heavy. Even with a greater ground pressure, the manueverability of the T-90 is not questioned by anybody in the world.

 

[ppgj]

PPgj,

When india bought the T-90 pakistan didn't have anything even remotely close to a panoramic sight or hunter killer ability , thats why we didn't go for it as we were trying to keep the deal cheap at the time,
now that pakistan has got panoramic sight on their AK's we are also going for it , i don't think there is anything wrong with that.

in essence, you agree that the army has no VISION.

pakistan buys Abrams, let's go for a heavy tank (Arjun).!!
pakistan changes to T-80, so let's shift to T-90.!!
they don't have panoramic sight, let's not have it.!!
they have it now, so let's have it!!

crazy!! why we have to keep looking to pakistan to plan for our selves??

yes, in 1999, Arjun was not ready. but when it became ready what happened?? scuttling, delaying tactics!!

Also , i think you misunderstood something

like what??

As far as i can comprehend you me and Mr. shukla in his latest post all agree on what should be done with the T-72's.

we may agree. but who is going to convince the brats in the army??

 

[kuku]

I was only giving an example on how throwing around non issues will not get us anywhere in our discussions. The T-90 is a medium tank while the Arjun is heavy. Even with a greater ground pressure, the manueverability of the T-90 is not questioned by anybody in the world.

Like throwing around a non issue of weight has not had that impact.

The point of pointing out the power to weight ratio, ground pressure, transmission and suspension is to counter the argument that Arjun MBT is less maneuverable or that it will sink in the sand, this bridge issue you came up with is not new, and believe me it can be an issue in mountenaus regions where often times you have bridges which are over 50 years old, its not a issue in open field deserts, and the canals past the punjab plains will have their crossing blown up as soon as there is a threat.

It would be more feasible after completing the Arjun up to Mk2 standard. Perhaps set new design principles and go for a new generation tank.

As it stands without the multiple tenders that is not the case.

The YF-23 design has not been used in any subsequent projects till date. Private companies work at a profit/loss POV. Researching and developing the YF-23 and its subsequent cancellation meant the private companies share prices were unchanged, while the competitor, LM's prices soared. Sure, there was no loss to the company, but there was no gain either. So, such ventures come at a big risk.

Softwares made to work with the PTD, RAM materials developed, research into composites, a generational development of FCS and avionics, all that research was useful, without it in the next tender they wont have any way to compete against the same competitor.

Without risk there is only one business its called a monopoly based PSU, if 20 years from now indian private firms are afraid of that we would be in the same economic conditions we are in now.

Eventually both companies cooperated on F-22 and F-35.

Then what is the point of supporting a home grown project if the engine, transmission, electronics are all imported. So, we simply have to induct Arjun for the sake of inducting and make a lot of fanboys happy while delivering a similar capability against a cheaper T-90.

Quite simple put It has more indigenous parts than T-90, and subsequent changes to domestic components under development does not require express Russian permission, provides a soft landing platform for development of indigenous technology.(which would keep on happening as projects mature)

Arjun has no immediate plans for an APS. The T-90 APS is coming. The Arjun engine is still under development while a T-90 engine upgrade is just around the corner.

The BMS is still not working to your specifications. The present system has GPS and only helps with communicating with the other tank commanders. That's about it. The one you are talking about has not been implemented or tested. The T-90 has a similar system in place too. The NCW modules will have to come out of our workshops or off the shelf from Israel or the US.

The contract can be signed and implemented within a year or two. It is just electronics.

Your far away from the point, the BMS will work with any system T-90/Arjun/T-72, its not a consideration in deciding which tank to choose, it will work on both tanks at the same time.

If you read the specification of the active protection system, its the same damn thing, they can be used on any tank/ICV/BMP you want to use them on.

This is India, contracts and implementation in a year or two is wishful thinking.

The kaktus is not the best in the world....agreed. But, can you give me another option that is available to us. No country will give ERA. The DRDO ERA is far from ready. Even ToT on the Kaktus was denied.

Open up any Swedish, German, Israeli manufacturers site, all options are available to anyone who chooses to purchase them, could you provide a source for the DRDO ERA (being far from ready)?

It is part of the manufacturing process. The T-90s coming out of Avadi will have an advanced derivative of the Kanchan that was supposedly developed with Israeli help for weight reduction. This was confirmed in the Ural defence expo some years ago.

Could you give at least any indications from the OFB, Russia or the Army regarding that, as right now most of the information available shows different things, Russian plans are to keep on selling their materials, they wont agree to this in the contract.

A T-90 with a new armour, new electronics and higher capabilities as against the T-72. The Arjun with a new armour, new electronics and higher capabilities as against the T-72. The T-90 is cheaper to build, maintain and employ. So, there is only one obvious choice.

Again with the cheaper argument, right now as has been reported the cost of T-90 has gone up, will go up further as upgrades are carrier out and its not going to be cheaper to operate just because its a medium tank.

Haha. Now you are being sarcastic.

No, guess where we have to go when we want to make modification to the FCS to accommodate a domestic missile?

I highly doubt the truth of that statement. We use ToT as an excuse for our own short comings in all our defence deals till date. The Russians never provided ToT on the armour and their stand was made clear even before the project was implemented. An indigenous armour was hence created. The time delay was due to various studies on the feasibility of the project. Then the Israelis popped in and helped us out.

Well as i doubt your sources, the tank is delayed none the less, products designed, i trust our own scientists, you trust the russians. The ToT on the gun was a well documented issue.

You are a bit too optimistic about our capabilities. If you are suggesting we can make a better tank in the coming 20 years, then let's have DRDO forcing tanks down the Army's throat after 20 years and not now.

The tank is as good as the T-90 and better in terms of technology in transmission, suspension and with a stronger armour.

The current capabilities in mechanical technology and electronic technology are on their way up every thing from engine design to microchip design will rise to new levels, in 20 years the army will still be concerned about tanks already in service and common heritage to go for russian option, we need at least 20 years to start indigenous induction.

T-90 has already seen two ERA upgrades and will see more. Arjun is yet to be seen with even a locally developed one.
Er. So, you say a 2 tier protection is not better than a 1 tier protection? Even the Abrams is being upgraded with ERA due to the proliferation of cheap Russian RPG-29s.

Yes i am saying exactly that, the 2 tier protection is their to compensate for the smaller protection through the composite armour.

Abrams are being upgraded under TUSK, a upgrade program for urban conditions in Iraq, hardly the battlefield we are looking for.

The T-90 APS tender has been signed last year and the first batches will be reaching soon. The Arjun does not even have a APS plan as of now.

The biggest advantage T-90 has right now is in terms of immediate war fighting capability, its already in numbers and serving.

Yes. And this is the most important reason for why the Arjun should not be inducted. The Army has made it clear it needs a whole new generation of tanks 2020 onwards. Inducting the Arjun now and junking it for a new tank only 10 years down the line will not give a major capability to IA's fighting ability.

True. But, why induct a tank to replace a tank of similar capability when we are aiming for a 4th Generation tank post 2020, only 10 years later. The addition of T-90s and maybe the T-95s will completely destroy the Arjun project and that includes the Mk2. DRDO is better off working on a new tank with foreign partners for future requirements. But, completing the Mk2 would mean DRDO is in a better position to undertake a new project.

Where is the tender? Haven't seen it anywhere, let alone the payments or the delivery schedule, will be nice to see know this.

Strange that the simple situation that indigenous work can be upgraded steadily, and provides us with the ability to manufacture to our standards, still misses to hit home.

Short sighted decisions provide us with nothing.

another Ivan, there is no money for T-95, hell the great Russian army did not have night vision for the georgian war, and there is nothing so special about the T-90 that scores over Arjun MBT, The plan now is to upgrade the current huge inventory and go for a replacement later, which sits absolutely opposite the plans for Indian Army Induction timeline.

No the army has not made anything clear, thats the comments of a lone army officer, and you should post the comment in full, i have very interesting observations to make on the comment.

That said the army has stated what it wans and its the T-90, no point wasting time there all the contracts for T-90 and T-72 upgrades need to be signed asap, hopefully with Arjun replacing the huge number of T-72s in the desert section of our border to at least 500 nos, otherwise it will takea round 40-60 years to even think of a indigenous tank program and inventory, the only justification for that could be that we see our engineering industry at the same level in that time along with the economy.