Problems with Indian T-90s

[JBH22]

An Indian Army officer who voiced his frustration to his Russian counterparts recalls the taunting Russian response: "Starting T-72 production took you 10 years. How do you imagine that you will produce the T-90 in just 6-7 years?"

Oucch it adds insult to injury

Agar kohi sharaab pita hain to sharaab pine wala doshi hain naki pilane wala (let's not play victim and seriously introspect our production capacity)

 

[Punya Pratap]

Back to the topic at hand >>

[/B]

Source : Indian Army To Upgrade T-90 Tanks With Domestic Help | Defense News | defensenews.com

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Nov 2011 news report

T-90 tank: Technology transfer, supply of assemblies hit Russian stonewall



Source : Broadsword: T-90 tank: Technology transfer, supply of assemblies hit Russian stonewall

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About the 345 new tanks >>



Source : Army scuttles Arjun trials to push through Russian T-90 purchase | Business Standard

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T-90 Missile Woes



Source : Gov't Turns to Indian Firms To Untangle T-90 Missile Woes | Defense News | defensenews.com

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I haven`t touched its engine issues or thermal sights during night yet in detail, Judge for yourself, the links are posted here ..

Thanks Kunal... you have just provided evidence to what I had been telling some senior posters regarding the eyewash called ToT and when I gave T 90 and especially the main gun as an example I was told that my source is BS!

I have a request to make, would you please post the above in the thread I have started in IAF Forum regarding FDI & ToT videshi vs Swadeshi... Thanks once again!

 

[Punya Pratap]

I think it's elementary that Russia specific weapons designed for that country's climatic and geographical layout shall not be compatible with our climate and nor fit in seamlessly in our armoured tactics without making sufficient modification. The very fact that DRDO /CRVDE etc had to step in says a lot and so do the facts that Russia reneged on ToT.

I wonder when would IA learn that supporting desi arms is strengthening their own hands because IA can lay down the specifics and make necessary alterations through GSQR and User Acceptance Trials. The IA doesn't understand the impact of a Made To Order weapon system! Also they have to realise that every weapons system needs to evolve to gain maturity and attain refinement. Law of Trial and Error applies on Defense equipment as much as it does on any human enterprise taken up by mankind!

 

[pmaitra]

Thanks Kunal... you have just provided evidence to what I had been telling some senior posters regarding the eyewash called ToT and when I gave T 90 and especially the main gun as an example I was told that my source is BS!

I have a request to make, would you please post the above in the thread I have started in IAF Forum regarding FDI & ToT videshi vs Swadeshi... Thanks once again!

Apropos the highlighted part, yes, there are certain individuals who have a habit not providing sources for their claims, but when someone provides a source countering them, they dismiss it as "BS." Eventually, any reasonable person will read both sides, and will give more credibility to the posts that have more backing and support in form of sources and references. You don't want to win credibility from those that don't care about sources anyway.

 

[Zebra]

Sir, in 1970s, TATA did requested Indian govt to give permission for MBT development and permission to make them.

Actually they had MBT technology at that time.

But Congress govt refused it.

And I am posting this second time on DFI now.

 

[sgarg]

Just to inform readers about the labour issues in OFB and corruption; I shall post some references.

OFB is a major problem, not a solution, to the problem of local production of military equipment.

It is important that people of this country know the truth. The tax money is provided by crores of hard working people of this country who deserve to see their money used properly.

The first Article:

Press Information Bureau
Government of India
Ministry of Defence
07-September-2011 16:02 IST
Firing by DSC in Gun Carriage Factory at Jabalpur
There was a firing in the air by Defence Security Corps (DSC) personnel at Gun Carriage Factory, Jabalpur on 21st January, 2011.

According to a report received from the Director General Ordnance Factories, there was an assembly of about 150 to 200 employees outside the Administrative Block of the factory. The situation seemed to go out of hand as the crowd tried to force its way through the cordon. An attempt was also made to snatch the rifle of a DSC Jawan. The Security Officer was pushed and he fell down. Under these circumstances, fearing damage to Government property the Security Officer, DSC, already deputed there, ordered firing. In this firing no one was injured.

According to the report submitted by the Director General Ordnance Factories, the General Manager did not order for firing. The DSC did not intervene in the matters relating to industrial relations. They were only guarding the Government property and opened fire for protection of Government property.

This information was given by Minister of State for Defence Shri MM Pallam Raju in a written reply to Shri Tapan Kumar Sen in Rajya Sabha today.

 

[sgarg]

Ex-DG of ordnance factory arrested on graft charges - The Times of India

The corruption not only causes delays, but also reduce the quality and quantity of equipment manufactured.

 

[sgarg]

Don't know what to do about corruption: Defence minister

Don't know what to do about corruption: Defence minister - Rediff.com News

The UPA defence minister was HELPLESS in fighting corruption. The reason - political patronage of corrupt.

 

[sgarg]

The public sector lacks maturity in manufacturing despite being in business for decades. The reason is politics and lack of professionalism.

The public sector jobs are taken by people just like other government jobs - people consider salary as "pension". The real work happens only in "overtime".

The lack of productivity on the shop floor forces the managers to outsource - often to small scale factories. The procurement processes are poor and riddled with corruption.

No doubt equipment built keeps on failing or requires expensive repairs when introduced to service.

 

[sgarg]

The Army wanted a light tank which is very logical. The fighting in mountains and on high grounds requires a lighter class of armoured vehicles. All decent sized countries are able to manufacture the equipment they need except India. The mentality that even a pin has to be imported has to go.

There was no need for import of T-90. What is T-90 now, as it has ended up using mostly locally developed technologies. If Arjun was too heavy, it was logical to design another tank in 40 ton category with the technologies already developed for Arjun. That would have made sense.

DRDO needs massive industrial backup. DRDO cannot function without efficient support from the industry. DRDO programs can run much faster if industry support is greater.

The government factories survive on outsourcing. They are incapable of utilizing the capital assets they have. This results in huge delays as tendering processes are slow and inefficient.

Take the example of Maruti Suzuki. They do not call out a tender each time they need parts. They DEVELOP vendors. Then they raise indents (not tenders) when they need parts. This ensures flexible manufacturing and timely delivery for the entire value chain.

India needs to decide what it wants to be. Either India has to be completely socialist (planned economy) or completely capitalist. Hanging in the middle is suicidal for the country's freedom.

 

[Ray]

I understand about avoidable part- But war machines are prepared for the least wanted scenarios too- If I am not wrong-

I am currently at NJP-

This summer I was in Sikkim-

What so great about being at NJP or visiting Sikkim. Does that make you an expert on warfare?

The areas you mention was my bread and butter at one time, if you understand what I mean.

 

[Zebra]

http://www.parliamentofindia.nic.in/lsdeb/ls12/ses4/0116049924.htm

Scroll down this link page and you might see talks about T-90 at the bottom.

And this are part of it --->

the Raksha Mantri, had gone to Moscow in October 1997. In November 1997, a meeting was held in the room of the Principal Secretary to the Prime Minister; so and so persons were present there. The Army Delegation evaluation performance of T-90 tanks was made in February 1998. The Technical Evaluation Report was given on the 25th of May, 1998. The visit of the Defence Secretary was made in June 1998. The Cabinet Committee on Security gave the approval in principle for the procurement of T-90 tanks on the 3rd December 1998. The date of arrival of the Russian Delegation for the Price Negotiation Committee meeting for T-90 tanks was on the 20th January 1999.

Moreover, T-90 has never been trial evaluated in India in summer or winter.

 

[Guest]

What so great about being at NJP or visiting Sikkim. Does that make you an expert on warfare?

The areas you mention was my bread and butter at one time, if you understand what I mean.

If you didn't get the point- I talked about those specific regions- perhaps a cantonment for Mountain strike crops is coming up in that area- which would have T-72 tanks-

 

[Hari Sud]

Hello Kunal Biswas

Good work.

Clean up threads, I mean all threads, from time to time.

It is a major chore but it gets the message across from time to time.

Institute a policy of a few days of posting denials for repeat offenders.

Things like that will go a long way to instill discipline. I do suggest that identify arms merchants men and women who post or troll to get their point of view and deny them posting rights for a few days. That will teach them to be more objective.

 

[Ray]

If you didn't get the point- I talked about those specific regions- perhaps a cantonment for Mountain strike crops is coming up in that area- which would have T-72 tanks-

When this comes up, we shall know.

 

[Punya Pratap]

Army ignored desi Bofors for 3 years before going for it - The Times of India

Hope some day Army learns to appreciate Arjun... I assume the Dhanush is finding favours simply because Army has been left with no choice!

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

i have a question for the fieldmarshal of T-90 brigade

who says t-90 are best option and the arjun brigade is stupid and arjun have lost thier relevance

dear sir,

if t-90 are so best and Ok

then why is

the OEM not able to provide the airconditioning solution for it and why is DRDO being asked to develop it ?
there is a saying by the way - Maal Kahye Mariyam aur chudw**** fatima ? why?

also why are T-90 being upgraded with the technology and things being developed for Arjun ?
Armour, FCS, Suspension etc etc ?

 

[Archer]

What rebuttal? You arguments involve "lego toys," "Satan," and lots of other things I could prove.

Even I disagreed with Kunal the other day (HAL LCA Tejas as CAS), and agreed with you, and you seized the opportunity to bash Kunal and another member. Why? Insulting people who don't agree with you is your malignant habit. Are you not grateful you receive far less infractions than you deserve? Thank the MODs for that.

You get infracted repeatedly because you ask for it repeatedly.




Yes, I know that.

MODs are not allowed to abuse, or engage in namecalling, like you do. You are not the only one. @SajeevJino chose to pontificate, instead of sending a PM to any other MOD. The fact remains, even when you are not under infraction, you choose to engage in public muck tossing instead of taking things over PM. Quit playing the victim. You are not the victim.

You are not allowed to abuse others. That is Kunal's fault.
You are not allowed to mock others. That is Kunal's fault.
You are not allowed to engage in name-calling. That is Kunal's fault.

Try to civilize yourself.

Thank goodness. One of the reasons I (because I can speak only for myself) visit this forum infrequently is because of the constant trolling by P2P, which infests every thread, responding with abuse or sarcasm, when called out when guys like this make claims which are completely, and that too wrong with the utmost of confidence. The manner in which he responds, almost invariably with poorly sourced information or incorrect data & that too with sanguinity is one thing. That he does this and waltzed around the forum masquerading as an expert, completely bizarre.

OTOH folks like kunal, who never lose their temper despite gross provocation, know a lot but speak less, get drowned out.

The quality goes for a toss.

 

[Archer]

There is no need to fight. This is the link from the "official" website of ordinance factory board itself

http://ofbindia.gov.in/units/hvf/downloads/hvf_43b9787b8a0cd00a8115c14b2b7c3a27.pdf

It clearly shows the first batch of indigenous T90 tanks produced. If someone still believes that only 40% ToT has been done in T90, they are welcome to continue believing so.

I sometimes wonder whether you guys even look into the details. Yes, these tanks are claimed to be "indigenously produced". But what is the so called level of indigenization? They are comparing it merely to CKD and SKD kit assembly. All that has occurred is that instead of assembling the kits directly at HVF, you have assemblies being sourced from the eyewash that are OFB supply factories which also do kit bashing & then send it forward to HVF. This is the big reason why DRDO et al, want private sector in manufacturing to assist them. At least if the Arjun program gets delayed due to the manufacturability, the pvt partner will fix it because its make or break for them. OTOH, OFB merely shifts to the T-90, gets assemblies for its different factories, calls them indigenous and ships them forward to HVF. In the meantime, what is HVF Jabalpur making? Or are they still labelling pvt sector trucks as OFB after assembling the kits? Fact is OFB is maintained with a limited capability by politicians of the G-clan who used it to source imports & also, the trade unions who want to do nothing. Structural problems galore. In public, DRDO et al are forced to go with OFB. In private, they'd anyday want L&T or Tata to build for them and work with them.

 

[pmaitra]

Thank goodness. One of the reasons I (because I can speak only for myself) visit this forum infrequently is because of the constant trolling by P2P, which infests every thread, responding with abuse or sarcasm, when called out when guys like this make claims which are completely, and that too wrong with the utmost of confidence. The manner in which he responds, almost invariably with poorly sourced information or incorrect data & that too with sanguinity is one thing. That he does this and waltzed around the forum masquerading as an expert, completely bizarre.

OTOH folks like kunal, who never lose their temper despite gross provocation, know a lot but speak less, get drowned out.

The quality goes for a toss.

Disagreement is part of a debate. Who is right and who is wrong is not the point. The point is, we should respectfully disagree and move on. A lot of leeway and leniency (in the language used in a post) is given, considering that every person can be passionate about something. It should, however, be limited to once in a while. It should not become a norm. Certain things are also better to be taken off-line. That was my point.