Who owns yoga? :Indian Americans stir a debate over yoga's soul

[p2prada]

Like Soviet Russia???
Or PRC???

They are not people are they?

Countries and organizations are not the same as people. Their interests have first priority and then comes everything else including religion. There is a difference between saying you are atheist and practising it. Countries preach, not practice.

Religion is not the problem, the problem is with extremists.
And extremists exist in every sphere of public life including Nationalism and Racism, so why pick out only religion.

Nationalism and Racism can be cured using education. Religion is at a whole different league.

Majority of the people in a country are not nationalistic or racist and ones who are can forgo their views if they are given a good enough distraction or are empowered to believe otherwise.

But Religion is not the same. If you stop being nationalistic or racist then nobody is going to question you Why because they are accepted evils of society. But if you stop being religious then people will be consumed with Fear. If some one stops being religious then will they not anger God? Perhaps one minor insult against God and he will smite you. Perhaps your life will be filled with misery and sorrow for being a heretic. Perhaps you will go to Hell. But nobody is willing to believe, "Perhaps nothing will happen?"

This is not something you can learn in just a few years. I first questioned the existence of God when I was 10. I learnt of the word Atheist when I was 12. Been that way ever since and it is not going to change any time soon. Thus my views on religion.

 

[S.A.T.A]

Shouldn't one lead a religious/spiritual life long enough to sufficiently question the validity of god,divinity and spirituality or is that too much of an encumbrance for atheists.

P.S:Nationalism is an ailment that must be cured ?

 

[The Messiah]

nationalism is evil ???

that makes majority of people in this forum evil.

and atheists have houlier than thou attitude also....they consider themselves to be superior than believers.

agnostics > atheists

 

[p2prada]

Shouldn't one lead a religious/spiritual life long enough to sufficiently question the validity of god,divinity and spirituality or is that too much of an encumbrance for atheists.

I can throw that right back at you. Why do you have to follow the beliefs that your parents and elders follow? Should you live their life first and then find your own path or start living your own life with your own beliefs right from the start.

That way you are a better judge as you are neither prejudiced nor brainwashed as a kid. Nobody told me to become atheist after all. So I never felt the need to feel otherwise.

Why should I be religious first in order to become atheist later? There are a Billion religious people I can look at and learn from everyday. But there are only a handful of atheists for the religious people to learn from and therein lies the difference.

 

[S.A.T.A]

I can throw that right back at you. Why do you have to follow the beliefs that your parents and elders follow? Should you live their life first and then find your own path or start living your own life with your own beliefs right from the start.

That way you are a better judge as you are neither prejudiced nor brainwashed as a kid. Nobody told me to become atheist after all. So I never felt the need to feel otherwise.

Why should I be religious first in order to become atheist later? There are a Billion religious people I can look at and learn from everyday. But there are only a handful of atheists for the religious people to learn from and therein lies the difference.

Human intelligence,upon which rest such intellectual processes like spiritualism and atheism,is itself a natural outcome of man's power of cognition.This innate ability to process information from his immediate surrounding and adapt this acquired information to augment his ability to think and perceive is what makes us an intelligent being.Sure we can concede that spiritualism as a inherent part of our cognitive process takes vital inputs from
our immediate surroundings,which for a child or an young adult would be his family and the cultural traits that his family imbibes.

Surely its only natural that our spiritual initiation follows what already prevails in the family,which probably is same for atheist too.But as our intellect expands surely that is no longer a restriction.However since atheists by definition do no believe in a god or a supreme agency that transcends the realm of material construct,wouldn't it be natural that one has to first understand in depth,that what we seek to reject.I think its fair.

To suggest that one doesn't have to be religious first in order to reject it later,tantamount's to judging a pudding on observation alone,without tasting it.That would be very unfortunate

 

[Ray]

How many of us really understand our religion, whichever we profess?

Many religious facts are debatable - in all religions.

It is the underlining message is what is important.

That is the problem. The interpretation. Each person interprets as per the person's convenience to prove his point!

How many of us are biased by what we are told as interpretation?

Just think that over!

 

[Rahul Singh]

If some one stops being religious then will they not anger God? Perhaps one minor insult against God and he will smite you. Perhaps your life will be filled with misery and sorrow for being a heretic. Perhaps you will go to Hell. But nobody is willing to believe, "Perhaps nothing will happen?"

As far as i know SANATAN DHARM[A] gives many ways to worship. People say one great man said Work is Worship least they know that KARMANEN PRADHAYEN(forgive me if i am not upto actual pronunciation) is actually from hindu religious writings. In many of these writings the path of KARMA is written as 'worshipping'. And as per these writings any person who believe in KARMA and do it in such a manner that no god person is hurt then he/she gets to god without even visiting temple ever. So in spite of being an atheist and following path of WORK(strictly good) people actually worships the power behind all the actions which in fact is god.

You using word PERHAPS is speaking thousand things and one is if something can still happen if slightest of the possibility is still there then why not be on the right path?

May be you should try reading GARUD PURAN. This Puran is strictly on Human deeds and their returns. May be after reading that you may have a broader look at atleast SANATAN DHARM[A].

 

[utubekhiladi]

even going toilet in indian style is also a form of yoga. but the main purpose of yoga is to achieve "Dhyan, niyam, samadhi, taph, saiyam, sankalp, vikalp, swadhya". Yoga is a part of Hinduism.

 

[p2prada]

Human intelligence,upon which rest such intellectual processes like spiritualism and atheism,is itself a natural outcome of man's power of cognition.This innate ability to process information from his immediate surrounding and adapt this acquired information to augment his ability to think and perceive is what makes us an intelligent being.Sure we can concede that spiritualism as a inherent part of our cognitive process takes vital inputs from our immediate surroundings,which for a child or an young adult would be his family and the cultural traits that his family imbibes.

Exactly why I am an atheist. I believe God is a figment of our imagination.

Surely its only natural that our spiritual initiation follows what already prevails in the family,which probably is same for atheist too.

Not for me. My family including parents are super-super religious. My parents have visited every religious place in the country right from Jammu to Kanyakumari multiple times. None of my friends are atheist. I don't know any other atheist personally either.

To suggest that one doesn't have to be religious first in order to reject it later,tantamount's to judging a pudding on observation alone,without tasting it.That would be very unfortunate

Its an old argument. Does a Doctor has to have the same illness to treat it? People have progressed based on observation alone, right from growing food to Flying in the sky.

People readily give up on hard work and leave their problems to divine intervention.

What's so super in religion that I must actually believe it in order to reject it? Should I fall sick first to realize it is wrong to fall sick in the first place?

If you are looking for peace and tranquillity, there are other means to achieve it.

People say one great man said Work is Worship

This is one of the perfect ways to misguide the masses to do both good and bad things using religion. Work is Worship is an example of influencing positivity. But using Religion as an excuse to practice killing is the other extreme.

In many of these writings the path of KARMA is written as 'worshipping'. And as per these writings any person who believe in KARMA and do it in such a manner that no god person is hurt then he/she gets to god without even visiting temple ever. So in spite of being an atheist and following path of WORK(strictly good) people actually worships the power behind all the actions which in fact is god.

I don't believe in Karma, I don't believe in Life after death, I don't believe we go to a special place somewhere after death. I don't believe in doing good things just because somebody told me to. I don't believe in doing bad things when somebody told me to either.

After death a person is merely a piece of meat that rots away and goes back to the environment. The same with plants, animals and insects. The ultimate aim of life is to merely exist or find a way to survive if threatened followed by reproduction. Nothing more.

You using word PERHAPS is speaking thousand things and one is if something can still happen if slightest of the possibility is still there then why not be on the right path?

The word "perhaps" has been used to discard your own doubts. If you take it to mean a thousand things then you are to be a judge of what's good for you and believe what you wish to. I am not here to turn anybody into an atheist.

May be you should try reading GARUD PURAN. This Puran is strictly on Human deeds and their returns. May be after reading that you may have a broader look at atleast SANATAN DHARM[A].

How about being good for the sake of being good rather than having to read it from a book which tells you to be good?

 

[S.A.T.A]

To believe or not to believe is left to the individual,but whatever the intellectual pursuit there must be a strong basis for it.If one were to dismiss spiritualism as a figment of imagination,its incumbent upon the individual to answer to himself why ?.Answers must be sought and deliberated upon without any inherent prejudice and then whatever the final outcome,if it satisfies must suffice.This would indeed be a honest effort.

 

[johnee]

Not to mention that first guru of Yog[a] is Devadhidev Mahadev Bhole Shankar.

Rahul,
In our vedic land, every vidya(knowledge) has a presiding deity. In line with this tradition, Lord Shiva is the presiding deity and the first guru(teacher) of Yoga. In terms, earthly gurus, Patanjali is the first one, as far as I know.
AFAIK, Yoga can be divided into 2 broad categories:
1) Hatha Yoga
2) Raja Yoga

Hatha Yoga deals with physical postures that strengthen the body, free it from ailments and prepares the sadhak(practisioner) for the Raja Yoga.

Raja Yoga or Ashtanga Yoga has 8 parts:
1) Yama: Control(of mind).
2) Niyama: Rules
3) Asana: Posture( Control of mind through posture)
4) Pranayama: Breathing techiniques to cleanse the mind and control it.
5) Pratyahara: Control of food intake(both quality and quantity along with place and time).
6) Dharana: Memory or concentration or focus.
7) Dhyana: Meditation.
8) Samadhi: a blissful state when the practisioner experiences divinity within him or when the practisioner becomes one with god.

1) Yama: It has 5 parts:
a) Ahimsa: Non-injury. Non-injury is not non-violence of Gandhiji. Ahimsa is different in vedic/yogic tradition. Ahimsa means not injuring anyone or anything beyond the day-to-day righteous needs of a practisioner. For eg: The practisioner has to obtain vegetables by injuring the plants, but its unavoidable. Thus, it does not constitue as himsa(or torture/injury). Ahimsa is also to be practised at mental level i.e. thoughts of hurting others is also himsa.

b) Satya: Truth. Speaking facts that do not hurt virtuous is called speaking truth. When facts are spoken with an intention to hurt others, it is not considered proper. Vedas declare, " Satyam Vada(Tell Truth always). Priyam Vada(Speak pleasantly always)." Hence, the practisioner must strive to speak the truth that is pleasant. Of course, if its unavoidable, then truth must be spoken even if its unpleasant. Satya also constitues another aspect. Satyam is atma/soul and god. Denying the existance of god or soul also constitues Asatyam(false speaking).

c) Asteya: Not stealing. Stealing from others is prohibited. Further, even the thoughts of stealing from others is prohibited. Infact, coveting what does not belong to oneself is prohibited.

d) Brahmacharya: (sexual abstinence unless one is procreating with one's wife for progeny). Sexual abstinence both physical and mental unless one is in the company of one's dharmic wife and is trying for kids.

e) Aparigraha: Lack of covetousness.

2) Niyama:
a) Shaucha: cleanliness both physical and mental. Mental cleanliness constitues lack of malice, hatred and negative emotions.

b) Santosha: Happiness or contentment. Being content in all situations and not giving way to desires that lead to anger, fear, or addiction. When a desire takes root, if it is satisfied by the practisioner, then the practisioner develops affection towards it. His mind will over time again give rise to same desire and if it is satisfied, the affection strengthens. Thus, the practisioner gets addicted to it. Also, there is an associated fear that the desire may not be fullfilled in future. On the other hand, if the practisioner's desire is not fullfilled, it leads to anger and frustration. All these feelings deviate the practisioner from the goal. Hence, contentment is a prerequisite.

c) Tapas: Austerity or penance.

d) Svadhyaya: Revising the scriptures so that one does not lose the memory of dharma.

e) Ishvara Pranidhana: Self-surrender to Lord.

3) Asana: Physical postures and physical excersises.

4) Pranayama: Breathing excersises that control the mind/thoughts. The mind/thoughts that a person experiences depend on several factors both external and internal. The primary external factors are breath, food and people. The kind of food taken by a person influences a person's thoughts, similarly the kind of people that a person is accompanied by also influence his thoughts. But the most basic factor is breath. As soon as breath is held, all the chain of thoughts vanish and focus on breath alone. So, by controlling the breath one can control the thoughts or mind. Pranayama teaches one to control mind through breathing excersises.

5) Pratyahara: Just as pranayama is controlling mind with the aid of breath, pratyahara is controlling mind with the aid of food. The extreme example that food influences a person are: A person's thoughts are greatly influences when he is drunk.
Thus, the food does have the ability to influence the mind and thoughts. Foods are categorised as: Sattvic, Rajasic and Tamasic. Tamasic foods give rise to lazyness and sadistic thoughts. Tamasic foods include meat and alcohol. Thats the reason for the prohibition of meat eating for certain classes of hindus. Rajasic food gives rise to desires and aggression. Sattvic food gives rise to purer thoughts. The amount of food intake is also quite important.

6) Dharana: Concentration or focus. All the above excersises facilitate a strong concentration. As one concentrates on some subject( generally a god form or related form), one slips into Dhyana.

7) Dhyana: Meditation. This is the stage for which all the above excersises have been prescribed. A good. A good meditation is difficult to achieve without the above pre-requisites. Once, the above are met to an extent, one can meditate properly and in due course attain Samadhi.

8) Samadhi: This is the final set of stages in meditation when one starts to experience the divine within and without.

Today, people practise a very basic form of excersise which is devoid of all the spiritual, mental and physical pre-requisites that have been laid down.

Yoga, Mantra, Tantra, Yantra, Mudra...etc are inherently part of Hinduism/Santana Dharma. Yoga has been rediscovered and repackaged by some. Similarly, Mantras may be rediscovered tomorrow. But at the core these aspects are unseperable from Hinduism, further when they are alienated from the vedic message these aspects can give rise to exactly the opposite effect of what they were meant to. For example, Yoga was meant to go beyond the body, instead devoid of vedic message, Yoga has become a celebration of body!

Actually people are getting confused because of word HINDU, not knowing that what people call Hinduism is actually named 'Sanatan Dharma'. BTW it is fact that people with religious concepts with core belief in "Holier than Thou" find these types of facts very uneasy to accept.

Holier than Thou especially in regard to what they consider as pagan...

 

[johnee]

The world would have been a better place if everybody were atheist.

I disagree. While its one thing to claim that you/someother is better for being an atheist and it is quite another to claim that world will be better. And its a huge jump of logic.
World is not a fair place. Many people suffer through out their life with no hope of justice or fairness, and with no chance of advancement or betterment. At the same time, they see people who are corrupt, evil and inefficient rising just because they have right oppurtunities or because they resort to diabolical means. Yet, not everyone resorts to these means....why? Because of the belief that there exists some super-natural power that is/will be fair in this life or in after-life. This hope/assumption/belief keeps the world safe, secure and sane. Otherwise, everyone will indulge in murder and mayhem to achieve what they can.

Charvakas of yore were atheists who developed their 'belief' to its logical end. They declared that since there is only body and no soul(evidence: the body burns in front of eyes, where is the soul?) and as there is no god, one need not worry about righteousness or vitue. Since one is body, one's main aim should be to pleasure body by hook or crook. In short: beg, borrow or steal as long as you have the clout, guile or strength to avade the law of land. Any kind of hard-work is absolutely non-sense; shortcuts, however devious, need to be employed as the life is short. Any human relation or feelings are again meaningless since, after all we are simply bodies that are born due to the communion of a male and female body. One need not care for one's parents, friends, relatives, community or nation. One's whole and sole motive must be to achieve pleasure at any cost in shortest possible time with minimum effort.


That is the logical end of all athiesm. With that view, the world can never be a better place.

Thus, whether god exists or not, the mere belief in God is a blessing to the world.

 

[p2prada]

I disagree. While its one thing to claim that you/someother is better for being an atheist and it is quite another to claim that world will be better. And its a huge jump of logic.
World is not a fair place. Many people suffer through out their life with no hope of justice or fairness, and with no chance of advancement or betterment. At the same time, they see people who are corrupt, evil and inefficient rising just because they have right oppurtunities or because they resort to diabolical means. Yet, not everyone resorts to these means....why? Because of the belief that there exists some super-natural power that is/will be fair in this life or in after-life. This hope/assumption/belief keeps the world safe, secure and sane. Otherwise, everyone will indulge in murder and mayhem to achieve what they can.

Perhaps Religion has had its benefit in the past. However, if you want to live in fear just to be keep the world safe, secure and sane then there would be no logical point in living. Living in Fear means a handful end up controlling you.

Charvakas of yore were atheists who developed their 'belief' to its logical end. They declared that since there is only body and no soul(evidence: the body burns in front of eyes, where is the soul?) and as there is no god, one need not worry about righteousness or vitue. Since one is body, one's main aim should be to pleasure body by hook or crook. In short: beg, borrow or steal as long as you have the clout, guile or strength to avade the law of land. Any kind of hard-work is absolutely non-sense; shortcuts, however devious, need to be employed as the life is short. Any human relation or feelings are again meaningless since, after all we are simply bodies that are born due to the communion of a male and female body. One need not care for one's parents, friends, relatives, community or nation. One's whole and sole motive must be to achieve pleasure at any cost in shortest possible time with minimum effort.

Though the above logic is scientifically sound, this is where people have to use their education to surpass their limitation. Logically an atheist is not bound by the Principles of Religion. However, even today it is the religious people who commit the most atrocious crimes ever committed. Even Hitler who was a stout Catholic encouraged beliefs of Nationalism, Racism and Religious superiority by marginalizing other faiths like the Jews and Atheist Soviet Union. Is this what you are supporting?

Even if the Charvakas had their own belief, they were true to their beliefs. Rather the people who practise religion and its laws still live like the Charvakas.

That is the logical end of all athiesm. With that view, the world can never be a better place.

Like I said, why not trying to be good for the sake of being good rather than having someone or something control your entire life. Religion does not give you a choice and history already proves it.

Thus, whether god exists or not, the mere belief in God is a blessing to the world.

But it still chains us to the ground. Blessing or not, it is because of this belief that people like this exist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swami_Nithyananda

Religion has only helped CONTROL the lives of ordinary people rather than Empower and Enlighten and therein lies the difference. What you believe is a blessing is actually a controlling mechanism that people willingly allow to take over their principles for both good as well as bad. Religion has actually caused more harm than good since the list of Bad is much larger than the Good.

 

[Phenom]

They are not people are they?

In your original quote you talked about making world a better place. If atheism can't make countries a better place, how are they going to make the world a better place.

Nationalism and Racism can be cured using education. Religion is at a whole different league.

Nationalism is not an ailment that it needs to be cured. Nationalism, like religion gives a person a larger purpose in life.

This is not something you can learn in just a few years. I first questioned the existence of God when I was 10. I learnt of the word Atheist when I was 12. Been that way ever since and it is not going to change any time soon. Thus my views on religion.

Trust me my friend most of us would have gone through such phases in life. My belief phase was something like Believer --> Atheist --> Agnostic --> Believer.

As someone who dabbled in atheism, I would like to point out the whole in atheist argument of painting the religion as the source of all evil.

nationalism is evil ???

that makes majority of people in this forum evil.

and atheists have houlier than thou attitude also....they consider themselves to be superior than believers.

agnostics > atheists

Sorry I never meant to club Nationalism and Racism together. The idea was to show that discrimination doesn't exist only on the name of religion, but also on the name of Race and Nationality.

 

[p2prada]

If one were to dismiss spiritualism as a figment of imagination,its incumbent upon the individual to answer to himself why ?

Look at the world today. Everything possible is being explained by science. Perhaps we are still too young as a species to find an answer to everything. But what were seen as religious experiences the world over in the past have been explained by science. Diseases, natural calamities, wars etc. There is an answer to everything and we are capable of finding those out for ourselves.

The difference between a religious person and an atheist is really simple. We don't believe in the existence of a supernatural being. Spiritualism is nothing to us because we do not believe in anything mystic happening to our bodies after death. Death is explained by science more thoroughly than any other aspect of our bodies. Death is just a failure of life which is followed by decomposition.

For an atheist life is very precious. This is because we have just one. But for religious people life has no value in comparison because of the belief in the after life and the "second" chance. Hindus believe in reincarnation. This is like a game with a reset button every time you messed up. At the same time Christians believe Life is suffering and one must suffer in order to reach Heaven. We do not have either of the beliefs and this makes the life we are living now very precious. We do not believe in living life for the sole reason of satisfying a greater being. Our life is our own and spiritualism has no place in it. Death ends life.

Even if a greater being is proven to exist we will still not give up our lives to it simply because we consider our lives more important than living in servitude of a greater being. Thus survival is more important for us than "survival" after death.

Now you know "Why."

 

[p2prada]

In your original quote you talked about making world a better place. If atheism can't make countries a better place, how are they going to make the world a better place.

You confuse the communist definitions of atheism with that of personal belief. People make a country. People have to be atheists if the country has to be one. The communist version of atheism does not allow the govt to enact laws that benefit a particular religion like a Theocracy does. There is really no difference between an Atheist country and a Theocratic country when it comes to morality. Like I already said earlier, for a country or organization the interests comes first. Comparing a country to a single person is impossible in the realms of the human mind. We aren't bees or ants who follow the whims of a single Queen.

More importantly, Atheists like to be left alone. No atheist likes being talked into believing a God exists.

Nationalism is not an ailment that it needs to be cured. Nationalism, like religion gives a person a larger purpose in life.

Yes. But a lot of negativity involved that does no good. Nationalism keeps a person cooped up in his "territory" rather than provide anything meaningful for him to do. Heck people find reasons to hate each other because of this even if he has done nothing to you. I am proud of my country but that does not give me the automatic right to hate every other country in the world. But, nationalism does only that. It is primarily hating others because of the holier than thou belief.

Nationalism as a goal is a true waste of time. Polyculturalism is a significantly better goal compared to nationalism. Perhaps provides an even larger purpose in life.

Trust me my friend most of us would have gone through such phases in life. My belief phase was something like Believer --> Atheist --> Agnostic --> Believer.

This is my phase Atheist --> Never changed. I was never a believer and obviously not agnostic. Your conviction has merely been weak in that respect. If you believe in a God, then go ahead. If you don't believe in a God then go ahead. But don't confuse the two since it leads you nowhere.

Also I am offended that you call me a non-believer. I do believe in something, however it is wholly divergent from your belief.

As someone who dabbled in atheism, I would like to point out the whole in atheist argument of painting the religion as the source of all evil.

Look up topics on Naturalism. This deals is in only facts. Then figure out why knowing is better than shutting yourself out from the Truth.

Atheists primarily want a society which functions better than it is now. We want to create this society based on factually proven laws based on science which is merely a common source of reference for all, religion or no religion. So, we don't mind you practising your beliefs and spreading it all over the world. We are happy if the society exists based on science rather than religion and also we are not harmed by your beliefs. Who here wouldn't?

Religion limits people's belief in science and that is the foremost concern and the biggest hurdle in creating the society that is primarily based on factually proven laws.

 

[S.A.T.A]

@p2prada

Your observation of religion and spirituality is merely tertiary,you have believed what you merely observed or notions which are in popular consciousness which you have come to be acquainted with.This is what i warned you against.spiritualism is extremely subjective and can neither be positively observed or imagined unless one subjects himself/herself to the experience,anything otherwise is mere hearsay.To believe in something is an intense intellectual effort and so is being an atheist,if one truly want to be atheist one has to make every possible effort to truly arrive at the state of mind and the intellect that made that possible.While I'm not in position to judge whether you have made all those effort,my understanding,the one i garner from your post,is that its not substantial.

Being atheist or religious is only a state of mind,the very argument that we hold 'life is precious' is an argument that has its basis in the concept human moral,a concept which is infinitely linked to the evolution of mans spiritual moorings.On the fundamental level Atheist belief in the absence of an external agency in the travails of human life and his immediate environment, is in essence one of the fundamental tenets of Hinduism,which is best summarized in the verse from Chandogya Upanisad :"Tat tvam Asi" (You are that)

 

[p2prada]

@p2prada

Your observation of religion and spirituality is merely tertiary,you have believed what you merely observed or notions which are in popular consciousness which you have come to be acquainted with.This is what i warned you against.spiritualism is extremely subjective and can neither be positively observed or imagined unless one subjects himself/herself to the experience,anything otherwise is mere hearsay.To believe in something is an intense intellectual effort and so is being an atheist,if one truly want to be atheist one has to make every possible effort to truly arrive at the state of mind and the intellect that made that possible.While I'm not in position to judge whether you have made all those effort,my understanding,the one i garner from your post,is that its not substantial.

I find this statement really funny. So, if I believe a God exists I am just a part of the accepted flock. But if I don't believe in a God I am supposed to prove "myself to myself" before making any kind of statements that is "blasphemous."

What kind of effort should I make to truly arrive at the understanding that God does not exist? Also, if you are religious then what gives you the right to tell me I need to work harder to believe in something that you yourself do not believe in. That is obvious hypocrisy. The belief that you are right simply because an atheist is not of sound mind or has no experience is merely arrogance on part of religious people.

If you are atheist yourself and have arrived at the state of mind and intellect that allows to call yourself an atheist then enlighten myself and everybody else here. If you are religious and believe that atheism is actually a state of mind that is something that cannot be understood by current levels of human learning then you have to explain why it is so?

Being atheist or religious is only a state of mind,the very argument that we hold 'life is precious' is an argument that has its basis in the concept human moral,a concept which is infinitely linked to the evolution of mans spiritual moorings.On the fundamental level Atheist belief in the absence of an external agency in the travails of human life and his immediate environment, is in essence one of the fundamental tenets of Hinduism,which is best summarized in the verse from Chandogya Upanisad :"Tat tvam Asi" (You are that)

Now I don't know what you are talking about? Spiritualism and Spirituality are two completely different fields. One(Spirituality) involves man's understanding of his purpose in life while the other(spiritualism) involves spirits and life after death. If you can make it clear which one you are referring to it would become a lot easier to explain.

We do understand the need to pursue Spirituality. But we don't believe in Spiritualism. My last reply to you was about Spiritualism and not Spirituality.

 

[S.A.T.A]

Unfortunately you tend to easily believe anything,whether you believe in god or a supreme agency or the absence of it,it appears you dont appreciate the effort that should go into believing that.By your own claim it took just first 10 years of your life to question 'God'.Men have wisdom have spent their entirely life span barely coming to terms with the concept of God,let alone find themselves on surer ground enough to begin question it.........The difference between spiritualism and spirituality exists only in your mind.

Its your right to believe whatever you wish to believe and how you arrived at,but unless you make an honest effort to arrive at such a conclusion,you should stop making grand statement such as 'God is figment of one's imagination'.

P.S:Atheism exist on the premise of there is no divinity as proposed by world religions,thence its incumbent upon those who adhere by it to prove its so,not the other way around

 

[p2prada]

Unfortunately you tend to easily believe anything,whether you believe in god or a supreme agency or the absence of it,it appears you dont appreciate the effort that should go into believing that.By your own claim it took just first 10 years of your life to question 'God'.

You are confusing me for a messiah. I am not. I merely have an opinion and that has continuously strengthened over time. When I was 10 I questioned the existence of god, but my knowledge was limited and also the fact that I had to survive brain washing at home from a Brahmin family.

Men have wisdom have spent their entirely life span barely coming to terms with the concept of God,let alone find themselves on surer ground enough to begin question it.........

Another false view that the religious people have against atheists. The concept of a supreme being is as ridiculous to us as an atheists beliefs are to you. We don't have to believe or have to come to terms with a supernatural being simply because majority of the population believes otherwise.

The men you speak of are not me. My beliefs are my own, so is my life and so is my learning. This is another weakness that religious people have over atheists. You want some one with higher authority to tell you what is it and what is not, in this case it is your so called men with wisdom who wasted their entire life in pursuit of their own confusion. They were supposedly so wise they had to take years to figure out if god exists or not and then they had to face a moral dilemma in choosing to believe it or not. Where is the wisdom in that?

If I told you I am 5000 years old and I have travelled the entire length and breadth of the Universe looking for God and couldn't find Him. Would you believe me if I told you the Atheists have it right? Would you give up your staunch belief as easily as you tried to judge my belief as ignorant and childlike?

Look at it this way. If God exists it still does not make a difference to us. We are proven wrong, but it does not change the way we live. But, if God does not exist then that would mean massive overreaching consequences for all of mankind(only the believers of course). If you are proven wrong, then all that you have done to this day would seem a massive waste of time and you would only end up looking foolish. Do you see the difference between us now?

The difference between spiritualism and spirituality exists only in your mind.

No. These are proper terms with proper definitions. Look it up if you want. Don't confuse spiritualism with spirituality.

Its your right to believe whatever you wish to believe and how you arrived at,but unless you make an honest effort to arrive at such a conclusion,you should stop making grand statement such as 'God is figment of one's imagination'.

This is something I can throw right back at you. I do have a right to believe what I want and so do you. But the statement "God is a figment of one's imagination" is exactly the same as what you consider to believe "God exists."

P.S:Atheism exist on the premise of there is no divinity as proposed by world religions,thence its incumbent upon those who adhere by it to prove its so,not the other way around

It is slowly happening. We are proving God does not exist and it is a gradual process. It started by proving the Earth is round and not flat, then by showing Earthquakes and Diseases are not God's wrath. Rain, Thunder and Lightning are mere natural occurrence of events and not God's pain, sorrow or Anger. Then we proved that Evolution exists. Then it was proven that man wasn't the first living organism using evolution. Science is at a very nascent stage. There will come a time when we can decisively disprove the existence of God.

With as much progress as we have seen today we have indeed killed a lot of superstitious beliefs that were born through religion using science. This is now a never ending process. Religion and God is slowly being unproven, just that the religious people are not ready to accept the facts. After all Facts is what governs Atheism and it will be fact that will disprove God. Perhaps that's when people start living life based on factually proven laws rather than prehistoric edicts and morals.