We have inadequate air defense to stop chinese airdropped divisions.

Yusuf

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Ok, Indian AD is bad and chinese land their troops in Indian territory. Then what? Be target practice for Indian troops? Terrain favors India. Indian side is plains. There will be a shooting contest and India will have more supply of bullets.
 

BunBunCake

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RCS of Sukhoi 30 MKI doesnt come into the picture as its in defending role . RCS comes into picture only when a plane is trying to enter into enemy territory and want to avoid detection.
No, RCS comes into play when you are going aginst another aircraft also...

If you see a plane 100 Kms before its coming to attack you definitely have more time to react and plan accordingly . Time is money my friend even for defence
Pilots are trained and millions are put in for their training. One would expect pilots can act instantly, not plan for 25 minutes before engaging.

Its RCS of incoming or attacking plane that affect the detection or range of radar. so Sukhoi RCS has nothing to to with its detection range its RCS of chinese planes that matter.
That's incorrect. Also, the MKI's RCS DOES play in, because if you have a plane with RCS of 25 m^2, and the enemy radar can see to it's FULL POTENTIAL, while the RCS of the enemy plane is 1m^2, the MKI CAN'T see to 350 KM.
gl
gl
 

Tshering22

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Chinese airborne troops landing behind Indian lines? What kind of fantsasy is this?
When considering Chinese, we have to consider every theater of warfare, bro. Due to their secrecy, little is known about their tactics, strategy and maneuvers. Our satellites don't have GPS level network centrism, our forces don't have any idea of the troop formation on the other side of Himalayas. You must realize that PLAAF has already started activating bases there while 2 of the bases have been active all along; their location is such that they are sufficiently away from Arunachal in distance to prevent an IAF strike and enough to descend on us.

Remember the last time we estimated something, something else happened.

There are some 200,000 troops deployed in Northeast, along with two squadrons of Su-30MKIs. Not to mention several other squadrons of MiG-21s and 27s in support role.
Chinese have opened up dozens of all weather roads, their infrastructure is 20 times faster than ours (they manage to finish 20 roads in the time we manage to finish 5) and waves and waves of light armoured vehicles (unknown whether IFVs or light tanks). Not to mention towed Artillery and MBRLs. And we are yet to even start a tender for howitzers all over again. Does this give you a picture? They have it all ready and covered while we are even yet to buy them off the market. THIS is the reason why IA cannot do jack and PLA gets to come into our side whenever they fancy; because they KNOW that we aren't armed well even today.

2 lakh troops without sufficient roads, armoured vehicles, towed artillery and firepower are nothing but 2,00,000 cannon fodder.

One wonders how a few thousand Chinese troops will survive in such a hostile environment, especially when the PLAAF will likely be unable to acheive sufficient air parity and provide direct support to these stranded airborne troops.
PLAAF won't be dropping airborne until their fighters have cleared the way which is not going to be easy for them. Arunachal is a pretty hostile terrain and due to its density, it might be a nuisance for Chinese airborne to penetrate. But don't rule out H-6s coming in to clear way. Which is exactly why we need to get Akash SAMs ASAP en masse blanketing Arunachal, Sikkim, Himachal, Uttarakhand and Ladakh so that PLAAF thinks a thousand times before sending their strike force into our airspace. even if IAF jets won't be enough, Akashs will do the job.

This "China invasion" syndrome propagated by the media and a few attention-hungry yellow journalists is extremely annoying. There will be no Chinese invasion of India, period. And if there is, then God have mercy on the PLA.
Invasion is unlikely but Chinese believe in "WHAT YOU CANNOT TAKE IN MILES, TAKE IN INCHES" and that is something you cannot deny no matter how much praises we have to shower on our armed forces. They make sure that whatever areas are not patrolled sufficiently, they send their state-owned road making companies guarded by PLA to make roads and claim it as their territory. Bhutan's 5,000 sq, miles was lost to PLA just like that and that taking over made it impossible to go by Sikkim to Bhutan on foot directly. That small "kink" you see between below pointed by the red arrow, was once Bhutanese territory which has been slowly encroached upon:



This has happened in a span of 30 years. in 2008 PLA entered Bhutan despite Indian Army's presence nearby. The invasion of India has already begun and by inches, not by miles since the latter would slow down their economy and be a suicide mission. It is only our idiotic leaders who downplay Chinese threat. Media glamorizes it but there is some element of truth in it.

Face it: They know we are under-armed, under-equipped, shaky leadership, slow-decision makers and worry about them.

Which is why PLA is not scared to come into our territory for "accidental patrolling". Do you think they will let an Indian patrol party off that easily if we patrol into their territory? China has already started its invasion and if you are interested in reality, understand this. Chinese strategy is that of a constant war and until the enemy is in no position to retaliate unlike our weakling foreign policy and strategic circles. We northeasterners know Chinese very well and know their psychology well. They will never make large scale invasion when they know they cannot defeat us absolutely. But take land by inches, they will and they are.
 

SHASH2K2

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No, RCS comes into play when you are going aginst another aircraft...
Talk was about detection range of Sukhoi 30 radar and for that RCS of incoming plane matters . You are also forgetting role of ground radars in detecting the incoming target and giving feedback to planes.
Pilots are trained and millions are put in for their training. One would expect pilots can act instantly, not plan for 25 minutes before engaging.
25 minutes are more than enough to get a plane in air to shoot down the enemy plane . Time will be priceless when we do not have proper air defence units .
 

Kunal Biswas

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Its not released. BUT (with common sense), what I do know is this KLJ-10 won't be anywhere near 350km. But that won't matter because of the MKI's huge RCS, which means > detection range for KLJ-10 while the bars may not perform to 350km.
PLAAF is not fool enough to open their nose and say " their u go! " ! lol..
And yes IAF put those huge ECM pods underneath for no use.. ( Cant believe! )

So Mr USAF tell so call huge RCS of Su-30mki is a huge problem?!
USAF F-15c were blind when we used our ECM pods during exercise which were mounted both Su-30 & Mig-21..
That F-15 got huge cross-section than F-16 and F-5, In the same manner SU-30MKI got bigger RCS than Mig-29! ( Common sense )

Good, It wasn't that hard is it..

I never disputed that, you are right, but it depends on the range of the missile, not the radar (because the radar's range is always > than the range of the missile) Also, not many SAM missiles are built to have a range of 300km. Only the Patriot and S-400 have those missiles.

We only have 6 S-300 systems though. As you said, if we place 2 in Delhi, 2 in Chennai, 2 in Banglore, 2 in Mumbai, the rest of the cities won't be protected. It's also LIMITED protection. As I said earlier, the RADAR may have a HUGE tracking range, but the MISSILE can only fly so far.......

U dont get it..

For Example SA-6`s radar can engage enemy at 50kms where missile range is 30kms, Now what we do is to place launchers at the limits of the radar`s cover hence with seekers in missiles kill range is increase to 80kms..

Because of the seekers within the missile its independent hence can operate beyond the cover of tracking/ illumination radars...





PAD is designed to intercept BM's OUTSIDE the atmosphere. Which means the information the radar sends (for active homing)

is useless because PAD only has radar guidance when in TERMINAL PHASE. And you will have no guidance from then on ( 80KM celling and over 300km range )...

@AAD if you use it, which is designed to intercept inside the atmosphere ( 150-200KM sam range ),
U have answered your own question..
 

Agantrope

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Another IMPORTANT thing to add, even if the radar's detection range is 1000 KM, the MKI's missiles don't go that far =)
R-77 = ~100km.
Buddy you dont understand the modern war logic.

For instance say, i have a 1000 Kms radar and a flight is entering in that vicinity as per your argument i dont have a 1000 Kms missile, but still i have a air-base within atleast 200Kms and a Su-30 will do that duty happily with its R-77. I dont gonna detect PLAAF aircraft by 1000 Kms and fire a missile from here. It is all the network centric information that are been fed to the systems from the ground. Again radar is very important. It is not the quantity that determines the winner, it is all about the effective utilization of the resources that are in the pocket.

Again i have saw your arguments based on the RCS, RCS is like a d*ck, man. It will not be visible that easily (until you get closer in excited state) for a enemy flight which is of 30-35Kms radius. It is all the ground radars powerful signals feed to the aircraft.
 

SHASH2K2

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I don't want to get offtopic too much, now so i'll use this.. anyways, ground radars don't GUIDE aircraft's missiles !!
you and I have been long enough in DFI to know it . But Ground Radars still are the first one to detect the intrusions and guide the planes towards the target .

UchihaCG 2 Hours Ago
by saying 25 minutes before engaging i meant that in an air-air combat, pilots don't need like 25 minutes to plan and shoot.... since you said that the MKI will see the other plane 100km before...
If detection is early we can send in some reinforcements to repel the attack . Also Sukhoi itself will see its enemy before it will be seen by its enemy and will fire first.
let's not mix up ground radars/sams with air-air now.
Its about defence of Ne from sudden Chinese adventure so we need to consider everything.
 

BunBunCake

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Buddy you dont understand the modern war logic.
For instance say, i have a 1000 Kms radar and a flight is entering in that vicinity as per your argument i dont have a 1000 Kms missile, but still i have a air-base within atleast 200Kms and a Su-30 will do that duty happily with its R-77. I dont gonna detect PLAAF aircraft by 1000 Kms and fire a missile from here. It is all the network centric information that are been fed to the systems from the ground. Again radar is very important. It is not the quantity that determines the winner, it is all about the effective utilization of the resources that are in the pocket.
Dude you're totally taking my posts out of context. See why I said that. Other people here keep telling me the MKI's radar can track 350km and can wipe out the J-10 or what ever AC before they even see the MKI. Is that true? The J-10 has a PL-12 equipped, which is on par with the R-77. My argument was even if you have such a great detection range (radar) your missiles can only fly so far, ! Also I was talking about the AC's radar being 1000 km (as an example), I don't know how you got ground radars involved in this.

Again i have saw your arguments based on the RCS, RCS is like a d*ck, man. It will not be visible that easily (until you get closer in excited state) for a enemy flight which is of 30-35Kms radius. It is all the ground radars powerful signals feed to the aircraft.
That's not true, only if you have an awacs will you get these "feeds". Ground radars can't guide the aircraft. Now, ground controllers may radio the pilot the details, but other than that, nothing else can be done.

you and I have been long enough in DFI to know it . But Ground Radars still are the first one to detect the intrusions and guide the planes towards the target .
Never denied that fact. I said ground radars don't GUIDE the missile.
FYI, ground radars give the gist for AC's, they don't show the pilot where exactly the target is (i mean live updates like the actual radar on the AC.)

in response to:
Talk was about detection range of Sukhoi 30 radar and for that RCS of incoming plane matters . You are also forgetting role of ground radars in detecting the incoming target and giving feedback to planes.
If detection is early we can send in some reinforcements to repel the attack . Also Sukhoi itself will see its enemy before it will be seen by its enemy and will fire first.
Again, you're missing the "missile range" point. See first, yes.. fire first... not so much
 
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BunBunCake

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U dont get it..

For Example SA-6`s radar can engage enemy at 50kms where missile range is 30kms, Now what we do is to place launchers at the limits of the radar`s cover hence with seekers in missiles kill range is increase to 80kms..

Because of the seekers within the missile its independent hence can operate beyond the cover of tracking/ illumination radars...


Nice try, but this comes to the beginning again. You only have 6 S-300 Launchers. Put 4 launchers in delhi, what will you do about the rest of the cities? Use Akash? (you'll need a lot more than 4 if you're going to use that :p)



U have answered your own question..
Do you have a problem comprehending what I say?

Here:
PAD only has radar guidance when in TERMINAL PHASE. And you will have no guidance from then on ( 80KM celling and over 300km range )...
@AAD if you use it,which is designed to intercept inside the atmosphere ( 150-200KM sam range ),

They're two different systems, if you haven't heard.

And read the rest of my post. Neither AAD nor the PAD can intercept an aircraft.
 
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civfanatic

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When considering Chinese, we have to consider every theater of warfare, bro. Due to their secrecy, little is known about their tactics, strategy and maneuvers. Our satellites don't have GPS level network centrism, our forces don't have any idea of the troop formation on the other side of Himalayas.
Come on, even an amatuer like me with Google Earth and a military encyclopedia can get a good glimpse of Chinese infrastructure in Tibet. And a professional army like IA has no idea of PLA formations??

You must realize that PLAAF has already started activating bases there while 2 of the bases have been active all along; their location is such that they are sufficiently away from Arunachal in distance to prevent an IAF strike and enough to descend on us.
So they activated an airbase near us, big deal. Its their territory, they can do whatever they want. We also have airbases along Bangladesh border, like Kalaikunda AFS and Hashimara AB. Are we preparing for an invasion of Bangladesh?

Remember the last time we estimated something, something else happened.
If you're referring to 1962, that's a dead horse and there's no need to keep on beating it. We are discussing air power today as the primary factor of a future Sino-Indian conflict; in 1962 neither side even used their air force. The present day scenario is a completely different scenario from 1962, and direct comparisons between the two are often flawed.

Something which we Indians often forget about is that India is very low on China's list of military priorities. This is something that defence professionals and China watchers - including some on this forum - have repeatedly mentioned, though many of us continue to live in a paranoid state. Just a casual look of China's military layout will show that it is heavily focused towards Vietnam, North Korea, and South China Sea, with its presence near India almost nonexistent in comparison.

Note that I am not advocating a lax position on the defence borders. I believe that any military should keep constant vigilance over its borders, and that is something that the Indian Army is doing day and night, 24/7. We can accuse the GoI of being lax towards the border issue, but the fact is that the GoI has been more vocal about the China threat now than at any other time in history.

However, being ready for a conflict does not mean a conflict is about to happen; in fact, it is usually the opposite, as a prepared army is a very potent deterrent.

Chinese have opened up dozens of all weather roads, their infrastructure is 20 times faster than ours (they manage to finish 20 roads in the time we manage to finish 5) and waves and waves of light armoured vehicles (unknown whether IFVs or light tanks). Not to mention towed Artillery and MBRLs. And we are yet to even start a tender for howitzers all over again. Does this give you a picture? They have it all ready and covered while we are even yet to buy them off the market.
First of all, and this is very important, Arunachal Pradesh is our territory, which means that we automatically have the defenders advantage of knowledge of the terrain, ability to use local infrastructure as we see fit, etc. Our infrastructure may be worse than the Chinese, but this doesn't really matter when you consider the distances over which the Chinese forces will have to travel in order to reach the border. Indian forces will obviously have a far less distance to travel. Secondly, even if the PLA manages to make a dent in Arunachal Pradesh, can they exploit this breach? The answer is NO. The deeper the PLA goes, the greater the Indian advantage of fighting on home turf. The Indian depolyment in Arunachal is structured in such a way that small penetrations in a limited war are unlikely (due to the sheer number of Indian forces), while a powerful thrust into the Indian defence will allow Indian assets to be mobilized from the remainder of the country (a direct highway link to Itanagar will soon be complete) and turn the tide in a war of attrition.

One of the fundamentals of fighting a deep war is to destroy the enemy's communications, supply lines, and chain of command. For the PLA to accomplish this, this would mean a virtual conquest of the entire Northeast region. I have seen nothing so far to make me believe the PLA is capable of such a feat. Even if the PLA fights a limited war as in 1962, the sheer strength of the Indian border force will prevent this from succeeding, as mentioned earlier.

About the points on equipment that you brought up: I don't see why the PLA would use armored vehicles, even light ones. They had plenty of them in 1962, and didn't use them then. What makes you think they will use them now? The terrain of Arunachal would make them nothing but targets for the IAF and IA.

About artillery, the IA may not have as much equipment as they desire, but they have enough to fight a war. That is certain. The Indian Army has showed time and time again throughout our post-independence history that they can triumph even in situations where the foes possess superior armaments. To verify this, go no further than 1962, where our jawans armed with WWII rifles killed 700 PLA soldiers and wounded 1300 more, despite being drastically outnumbered and outgunned. The media makes it seem like we have absolutely no artillery positioned on the border...
Once M-777s are purchased, you can expect our border force to be even better supported.

THIS is the reason why IA cannot do jack and PLA gets to come into our side whenever they fancy; because they KNOW that we aren't armed well even today.
The PLA enters the border whenever they feel like it?? That's news to me. Is there any reliable source for that?

There hasn't been a single major skirmish on the Sino-Indian border since 1987. One wonders, if the Indian Army is so haplessly armed, why the Chinese don't press their advantage?

2 lakh troops without sufficient roads, armoured vehicles, towed artillery and firepower are nothing but 2,00,000 cannon fodder.
2 lakh troops with Flanker and Flogger air support, 130mm M-46 and 100mm IFG towed artillery, and close proximity to Indian lines of supply and communications are a considerable border force, and no one in their right mind would say other wise. To give you an idea, there are only about a dozen countries whose entire armies are as potent as this border force.


Invasion is unlikely but Chinese believe in "WHAT YOU CANNOT TAKE IN MILES, TAKE IN INCHES" and that is something you cannot deny no matter how much praises we have to shower on our armed forces. They make sure that whatever areas are not patrolled sufficiently, they send their state-owned road making companies guarded by PLA to make roads and claim it as their territory. Bhutan's 5,000 sq, miles was lost to PLA just like that and that taking over made it impossible to go by Sikkim to Bhutan on foot directly. That small "kink" you see between below pointed by the red arrow, was once Bhutanese territory which has been slowly encroached upon:
What? I have an atlas from 1968, it still shows that piece of land as Chinese territory? Also, that piece of land is covered by a giant glacier, making it near impossible to "walk" to Bhutan from Sikkim anyway.

This has happened in a span of 30 years. in 2008 PLA entered Bhutan despite Indian Army's presence nearby.
Please provide a source for this.

The invasion of India has already begun and by inches, not by miles since the latter would slow down their economy and be a suicide mission. It is only our idiotic leaders who downplay Chinese threat. Media glamorizes it but there is some element of truth in it.
So while the PLA is taking "inches by inches" from India, the Indian Army is sleeping and doing nothing?
Let me just say this: the GoI, our babus, our diplomats, our self-proclaimed leaders... they can all be sleeping.
But the Indian Army never sleeps, and every night, the hundred crore citizens of India can go to sleep in peace because the Indian Army is awake.

Face it: They know we are under-armed, under-equipped, shaky leadership, slow-decision makers and worry about them.
Even knowing all of this, they have not invaded since 1962? Why haven't they?

The whole facade of Chinese claims and counterclaims on Indian territory are only meant as a distraction for India to divert our attention from far more pressing strategic questions... like deciding who becomes the dominant power in the Indian Ocean. When push comes to shove, the Chinese will back down from their claims, as will we. They know that and we know that as well. The status quo will be maintained for quite a long time, possibly indefinitely.
 
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LETHALFORCE

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Quote Originally Posted by Tshering22
When considering Chinese, we have to consider every theater of warfare, bro. Due to their secrecy, little is known about their tactics, strategy and maneuvers. Our satellites don't have GPS level network centrism, our forces don't have any idea of the troop formation on the other side of Himalayas.

we have satellite intelligence sharing with atleast 2 countries and possibly even a third(not made public) who do have this capability.
 

captonjohn

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Ok, Indian AD is bad and chinese land their troops in Indian territory. Then what? Be target practice for Indian troops? Terrain favors India. Indian side is plains. There will be a shooting contest and India will have more supply of bullets.
Do you think that chinese are fool enough that they will airdrop a division without any solid strategy and land forces support? If china decide to airdrop its troops then definitely it would be with possibility to link up with nearest chinese land forces.
 

Yusuf

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Do you think that chinese are fool enough that they will airdrop a division without any solid strategy and land forces support? If china decide to airdrop its troops then definitely it would be with possibility to link up with nearest chinese land forces.
How exactly will they do that? Don't go on assumptions. In 62 also they declared ceasefire as their supplies collapsed. Yes this is not 62 but then the indian forces too are also not stuck in 62.
 

SHASH2K2

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How exactly will they do that? Don't go on assumptions. In 62 also they declared ceasefire as their supplies collapsed. Yes this is not 62 but then the indian forces too are also not stuck in 62.
Yusufbhai this kind of operation can be to cut off our supply lines , something like chicken neck area. they can very well carry out some overt or covert operations to cut the supply lines.
 

sesha_maruthi27

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All claims made by china about their army and equipment may be 50% true. Hype is given by them like our media giving hype about every small thing they see everywere. Why do some guys here feel or even believe that IA and IAF have inferior equipment than the PLA and PLAAF. Have you ever tested them face to face. Why do some guys degrade the IA and IAF by saying that we have been equiped very poorly when compared to the chinese.... It is b'cos of these very inteligent guys we think that IA and IAF are really ill equiped than the chinese. It is not necessary to show what we have and what we can do. It is at the time of war that some new equipment emerge, which are being used by IA and IAF and also our enimies.
 

sesha_maruthi27

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Everyone witnessed what happend during the 1971 war with pakistan. They were said to have a far better equiped and well trained and very advanced fighter jets, but could not make sufficient use of technology. Do not under estimate our own IA and IAF............
 
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hit&run

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@Yusuf
I agree with you,
Has China ever para dropped a division behind enemy lines?
 

SHASH2K2

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@Yusuf
I agree with you,
Has China ever para dropped a division behind enemy lines?
There is always a first time . We cannot presume that chinese may or may not try a particular option. There is no harm in being prepared for the worst .
 

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