We have inadequate air defense to stop chinese airdropped divisions.

[ejazr]

Our philosophy should be "madness" ie if china does anything hanky panky and we are losing then nuke china with 80% of our arsenal and 20% on pakistan for good measure.

I am prepared to die in this scenario aswell...maybe im mad myself.

I have mentioned this before as well that our NFU policy on nuke should apply only to SAARC member countries.

China will get the message that it is not covered in the NFU clause and any major intrusion into Indian territory can see escalation to nuclear levels quite quickly.

This will deter them from making unilateral moves.

 

[Phenom]

Airborne operations are extremely risky and countries opt for it only when they have far greater firepower than the enemy. As operation Market-Garden showed, even when one has complete air superiority, airborne operation can still fail.

Second problem with airborne operation is once these divisions are dropped inside enemy territory there has to be a way to get them out or link up with them. Otherwise you have just handed the enemy a large number of PoWs to be used as a tool in future negotiations. For example, let's take the scenario discussed in this thread.

Let's say one fine morning the Chinese open up on Indian defences all across the LAC and to the surprise of Indian top brasses they even manage to drop an entire air borne division on the Sillguri corridor cutting of NE from rest of India. Indian defence forces are taken completely by surprise. Realising that their supplies are in trouble, the army decides to retreat from border areas to more defensible locations. China gains several border towns, may be even Tawang. But India manages to surround the airborne division in sillguri from all sides, around 10 - 15 thousand Chinese soldiers are now trapped. What cold China do in this situation?

Modern wars are not won on the basis of territorial gains alone, they are won or lost on the basis of how many men a country has lost. If China gains few border towns, but has to face the videos of 1000s of Chinese PoWs on CNN and Youtube or even worse in Youku, then China won't consider that a victory.

IMO, airborne operations are way too risky,especially in Sino-Indian conflict where the difference in military capability between the two sides is not that big. If any airborne action does take place, it would be small scale hit and run attacks carried out by special forces, not large scale WWII style airdrops.

 

[civfanatic]

Chinese airborne troops landing behind Indian lines? What kind of fantsasy is this?

There are some 200,000 troops deployed in Northeast, along with two squadrons of Su-30MKIs. Not to mention several other squadrons of MiG-21s and 27s in support role.

One wonders how a few thousand Chinese troops will survive in such a hostile environment, especially when the PLAAF will likely be unable to acheive sufficient air parity and provide direct support to these stranded airborne troops.

This "China invasion" syndrome propagated by the media and a few attention-hungry yellow journalists is extremely annoying. There will be no Chinese invasion of India, period. And if there is, then God have mercy on the PLA.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Being a Defence Professional, I'd expect better from you.
NO information about the J-10's radar been released, and yet you still compare their radars?

Update yourself!
http://www.janes.com/articles/Janes-Avionics/KLJ-710-Fire-Control-Radar-FCR-China.html

You can't use AKASH to shoot down a BM.
There's a reason why Russia, America spend billions making S-Xxx and the Patriot.


You are ******** me, you honestly think ABM/BMDs can shoot down aircraft

Please enlighten me on how the AAD and the PAD (both BMDs) can be used to shoot them down. Either I'm ignorant or you're wrong.

S-300 use of a phased array radar for tracking and engagements, The radar output is much better so that the range is longer,Radars and missile seeker are capable of tracking small size object far as 300km..

PAD radar is very advance, Its capable locking small size object as far as 600km, Needless to say the missiles use active homing after launch just like R-77 seeker..
Its Aircraft or Missile of pinpoint cross-section PAD/BMD are very capable in destroying such threads..

The self explanatory part is that six S-300's are NOT good enough.

For protection a city like two system are enough, S-300 missle use active homing seekers, that means you can place launcher even at the borderline of tracking radar`s range, the range of the system automatically enhanced, two tracking radars with ten launchers not only cover the whole delhi but can also can engage targets over 300plus km..

On paper its just 300km, practically you can do way more than 300km, IA and RUA SA-6 batteries do the same trick its range is just 30km but separating launchers to far distance wihin radars range you can cover 50kms..

 

[BunBunCake]

Update yourself!
http://www.janes.com/articles/Janes-Avionics/KLJ-710-Fire-Control-Radar-FCR-China.html

Please do:

A derivative of the KLJ-7, and likely employing a larger diameter array, the KLJ-10/J-10A, is believed to have been installed in the Chengdu J-10 fighter aircraft.

Its not released. BUT (with common sense), what I do know is this KLJ-10 won't be anywhere near 350km. But that won't matter because of the MKI's huge RCS, which means > detection range for KLJ-10 while the bars may not perform to 350km.

S-300 use of a phased array radar for tracking and engagements, The radar output is much better so that the range is longer,Radars and missile seeker are capable of tracking small size object far as 300km..

I never disputed that, you are right, but it depends on the range of the missile, not the radar (because the radar's range is always > than the range of the missile) Also, not many SAM missiles are built to have a range of 300km. Only the Patriot and S-400 have those missiles.

PAD radar is very advance, Its capable locking small size object as far as 600km, Needless to say the missiles use active homing after launch just like R-77 seeker..
Its Aircraft or Missile of pinpoint cross-section PAD/BMD are very capable in destroying such threads..

No, you should understand that the PAD is designed to intercept BM's OUTSIDE the atmosphere. Which means the information the radar sends (for active homing)
is useless because PAD only has radar guidence when in TERMINAL PHASE. And you will have no guidence from then on... so how will you shoot down the aircraft?

@AAD if you use it, which is designed to intercept inside the atmosphere, the aircraft will move away. It's like shooting down a bird with a ballistic missile.

For protection a city like two system are enough, S-300 missle use active homing seekers, that means you can place launcher even at the borderline of tracking radar`s range, the range of the system automatically enhanced, two tracking radars with ten launchers not only cover the whole delhi but can also can engage targets over 300plus km..

We only have 6 S-300 systems though. As you said, if we place 2 in Delhi, 2 in Chennai, 2 in Banglore, 2 in Mumbai, the rest of the cities won't be protected. It's also LIMITED protection. As I said earlier, the RADAR may have a HUGE tracking range, but the MISSILE can only fly so far.......

On paper its just 300km, practically you can do way more than 300km, IA and RUA SA-6 batteries do the same trick its range is just 30km but separating launchers to far distance wihin radars range you can cover 50kms..

No, no you can't, because the missile can't fly that far.. show me a missile in the S-300 with > 300km. (actually its missiles are less than that range)
gl

 

[SHASH2K2]

I never disputed that, you are right, but it depends on the range of the missile, not the radar (because the radar's range is always > than the range of the missile) Also, not many SAM missiles are built to have a range of 300km. Only the Patriot and S-400 have those missiles.

We only have 6 S-300 systems though. As you said, if we place 2 in Delhi, 2 in Chennai, 2 in Banglore, 2 in Mumbai, the rest of the cities won't be protected. It's also LIMITED protection. As I said earlier, the RADAR may have a HUGE tracking range, but the MISSILE can only fly so far.......

New swordfish Radars will be having 1500 Kms of range and are very accurate as well. If they are able to detect the target or intruders we can take precautionary mesures like trying to shoot them down using any of the fighter planes.
First and most important step is to detect the intrusion and we have that capability . India is also procuring new Radars to Fit in to mountaneous terrain . I agree that Akash donot have very great range but we do have many potent planes to shoot them down. Sukhoi 30 MKI with 300 Kms range abd BVR missiles can definitely beat the shit out of Chinese . And none of chinese planes have better detection range that Su 30 MKI .

also check this : http://www.google.co.in/#hl=en&source=hp&biw=1280&bih=937&q=india+%2B+firefinding+radar+%2B+mountains&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=9b69dabe92eec210

 

[Pandora]

SA 6 better than AKASH ? how.oh!plz enlighten us ? you ever saw SA 6 ? WELL MY DAD IS A WEAPON FITTER BY TRADE ,sorry am not gonna tell you his Rank and unit but currently he's serving . so plz dont tell BS here in public forum atleast if you don't know anything about SAM system. ACCORDING TO HIM AKASH IS BIT BULKY BUT A WORLD CLASS SAM WITH EASY USER INTERFACE ..adios

 

[captonjohn]

We don't have enough technological superiority over china. China also has SU-30 and also trying to get latest version. India has Harpy for destroying air defense and in same way china also has purchased harpy from Israel which pose a serious threat to our radars and air defense. First we don't have enough SAM units specially medium and long range SAM which can shoot any aircraft from 100+ KM distance. Akash has 25 km range and this won't help because till enemy already has been entered in our area. So in short we need more effective medium, long range and short range SAM to counter such operation.

Also we can use air superiority fighters to kill enemy paradropping aircrafts and would maintain our superiority on air.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Indian nukes are pointed either at china or at Pakistan While china has many more countries to care or target its nukes.
Also 100 nukes will damage India but it will not finish us. we will have a lot left.

China never compromised its national security even when they were not so strong economically. Infact we should learn from them and do whatever is required to protect our intrests.

we have plenty of fissile material in reserve ,and the Fast breeder reactors will pump out much more annually ;enough for hundreds to thousands of warheads annually if chosen

 

[BunBunCake]

New swordfish Radars will be having 1500 Kms of range and are very accurate as well. If they are able to detect the target or intruders we can take precautionary mesures like trying to shoot them down using any of the fighter planes.
First and most important step is to detect the intrusion and we have that capability . India is also procuring new Radars to Fit in to mountaneous terrain . I agree that Akash donot have very great range but we do have many potent planes to shoot them down. Sukhoi 30 MKI with 300 Kms range abd BVR missiles can definitely beat the shit out of Chinese . And none of chinese planes have better detection range that Su 30 MKI .

also check this : http://www.google.co.in/#hl=en&source=hp&biw=1280&bih=937&q=india+%2B+firefinding+radar+%2B+mountains&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=9b69dabe92eec210

Again you're missing the point here, yes we can send in MKI's, but again, we still need sams. What you proposed is an alternative that isn't the best. And FYI, the Chinese J-11's and MKKs will be getting the newest AESA radars soon.. I haven't heard about the MKI's upgrade yet.


You don't need to be a secret officer to know this, but obviously the Akash is better than the SA6. Those are systems 2-3 decades old. Akash is today's SAM.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

How well or long can Chinese maintain supply lines when they were not able to aainst their neighbor Vietnam?? Check how fast they ended that .

http://www.salem-news.com/articles/october242010/vietnam-china-tk.php
Vietnam's Bloody Defeat of China

 

[LETHALFORCE]

How well or long can Chinese maintain supply lines when they were not able to aainst their neighbor Vietnam?? Check how fast they ended that .

http://www.salem-news.com/articles/october242010/vietnam-china-tk.php
Vietnam's Bloody Defeat of China

 

[SHASH2K2]

Again you're missing the point here, yes we can send in MKI's, but again, we still need sams. What you proposed is an alternative that isn't the best. And FYI, the Chinese J-11's and MKKs will be getting the newest AESA radars soon.. I haven't heard about the MKI's upgrade yet.

I never said that we donot need Surface to Air missiles. We need them and need them badly. I was just talking about one of way to counter possible chinese intrusion.
I Think you Should know about AESA Radar . Having AESA Radar doent mean greater range . No other plane can match the Range of Sukhoi 30 MKI Radar. Even the proposed AESA upgrade fpr Sukhoi will not have more than 200 Kms range . Only Problem with existing sukhoi 30 MKI Radar is that its not as efficient as AESA upgrade. SO MKI without upgrade is also death warrant for Chinese planes.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

I never said that we donot need Surface to Air missiles. We need them and need them badly. I was just talking about one of way to counter possible chinese intrusion.
I Think you Should know about AESA Radar . Having AESA Radar doent mean greater range . No other plane can match the Range of Sukhoi 30 MKI Radar. Even the proposed AESA upgrade fpr Sukhoi will not have more than 200 Kms range . Only Problem with existing sukhoi 30 MKI Radar is that its not as efficient as AESA upgrade. SO MKI without upgrade is also death warrant for Chinese planes.

Air power alone will not hold territory,most of the action will be on the ground.

 

[SHASH2K2]

Air power alone will not hold territory,most of the action will be on the ground.

Sirjee our first aim should be to destroy the threat in Air itself and if we fail to do so then ground troops comes into picture. I think there should be another thread to analyze the capability of ground forces to tackle sudden incursion into territory.

 

[BunBunCake]

I never said that we donot need Surface to Air missiles. We need them and need them badly. I was just talking about one of way to counter possible chinese intrusion.
I Think you Should know about AESA Radar . Having AESA Radar doent mean greater range . No other plane can match the Range of Sukhoi 30 MKI Radar. Even the proposed AESA upgrade fpr Sukhoi will not have more than 200 Kms range . Only Problem with existing sukhoi 30 MKI Radar is that its not as efficient as AESA upgrade. SO MKI without upgrade is also death warrant for Chinese planes.

AESA = less prone to Jammers, harder to detect, better reliability
now tell me if it means something. Range doesn't mean EVERYTHING man, don't fall into dreams thinking the MKI is invulnerable.

The MKI is a HUGE plane with a HUGE RCS.. it's radar's detection range won't be 350km when you're going against a target with say 1m^2. It'll drop somewhere to 150 KM.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Sirjee our first aim should be to destroy the threat in Air itself and if we fail to do so then ground troops comes into picture. I think there should be another thread to analyze the capability of ground forces to tackle sudden incursion into territory.

AWACS,Akash,SA-6,Maitri,SPYDER -against low flying planes, helicopters, UAV's,missiles,air launched cruise missiles,S-300,BVR'S, Derby, Python, KH-31, and also possibly Novator missiles that are not advertised??take your pick i probably missed a few?? What country has this much???? Same as our planes we have the best of Russian,French and Israeli SAM'S in some cases we have their whole portfolio.

 

[BunBunCake]

Another IMPORTANT thing to add, even if the radar's detection range is 1000 KM, the MKI's missiles don't go that far =)
R-77 = ~100km.

 

[SHASH2K2]

AWACS,Akash,SA-6,Maitri,SPYDER -against low flying planes, helicopters, UAV's,S-300,BVR'S, Derby, Python, KH-31, and also possibly Novator missiles that are not advertised??take your pick i probably missed a few?? What country has this much????

Completely agree with you . we have quality but we need quantity and hopefully AKash will be able to fill the gap.

 

[SHASH2K2]

AESA = less prone to Jammers, harder to detect, better reliability
now tell me if it means something. Range doesn't mean EVERYTHING man, don't fall into dreams thinking the MKI is invulnerable.

The MKI is a HUGE plane with a HUGE RCS.. it's radar's detection range won't be 350km when you're going against a target with say 1m^2. It'll drop somewhere to 150 KM.

RCS of Sukhoi 30 MKI doesnt come into the picture as its in defending role . RCS comes into picture only when a plane is trying to enter into enemy territory and want to avoid detection.
If you see a plane 100 Kms before its coming to attack you definitely have more time to react and plan accordingly . Time is money my friend even for defence .

Its RCS of incoming or attacking plane that affect the detection or range of radar. so Sukhoi RCS has nothing to to with its detection range its RCS of chinese planes that matter.