WAR 1971

[W.G.Ewald]

If Pakistan is broken up further, who will administer the resulting political entities? India, the UN?

 

[warriorextreme]

Blaochistan

Sindhudesh

It will be fun :thumb:

 

[Yusuf]

If Pakistan is broken up further, who will administer the resulting political entities? India, the UN?

The people of that region. The Baloch, the Sindhis who have no say in the matters of their region which is dominated by Punjabis.

 

[warriorextreme]

If Pakistan is broken up further, who will administer the resulting political entities? India, the UN?

people of that land will rule...and after 30 or odd years they will become headache for india too..

 

[mayfair]

The breaking up of Pakistan was supposed to make India safer. Has it?

Lt Gen JFR Jacob: No, I don't think things are very different. Earlier, when there were two fronts - Pakistan to our west and East Pakistan (Bangladesh) to our east - Pakistan didn't really have the capacity needed to create trouble for us. Now, with all their troops and equipment in Pakistan, they're better able to focus on them.

With all due respect Gen. Jacob, by that logic even we were able to concentrate our troops on China and Western (Pakistan) borders instead of thinning them out over three frontlines.

East Pakistan would have easily created as much or even more trouble for us..it would have been far easier for PLA to station troops and equipment there and create another Gwador, without accompanying Baloch pinpricks. We would have been surrounded by Chinese forces from three sides in the Northeast and that itself lends to some not so comforting scenarios.

Finally, Pakis being Pakis, would have still gone on to support terror in the North East and with Chinese backing; there would have been no crackdown on ULFA, NLFT, NDFB, KLO and other terror groups.

On the plus side, perhaps the illegal immigration would have been far less since the border would have been very strictly patrolled by the army.

 

[Ray]

Technically, Gen Jacob said is right. Now, the complete military of Pakistan is hunkered down in West Pakistan.

The anger of being humiliated and their claim of 1 Pak boy = 10 Indians being smashed, has been translated in the idea of destroying India by a 1000 cuts. It is something that India can take it in its stride, but in the bargain, it resurrected the fire of Islamic 'superiority' all Muslim harbour. The initial success in Kashmir, ignite Zia's zeal to take on the Russians in Afghanistan with US arms and money, that turned successful.

The fundamentalists that were unleashed became heady with the success and they thought they could take on the world. Foolishly they took on their benefactor, the US and they have met their current doom, wherein they are foolishly dying in Afghanistan and also their country is in total turmoil and they are killing each other and also, they are so confused that they are in a mental limbo as to whether to have a military regime or have a civilian Govt.

They blow hot and cold against their benefactor, the US, but cannot abandon the US since they are the Masters who feed, cloth and pay for their existence.

In other word, they are not a country in its real sense.

Hence, who won and who lost?

 

[mayfair]

Technically, Gen Jacob said is right. Now, the complete military of Pakistan is hunkered down in West Pakistan.

The anger of being humiliated and their claim of 1 Pak boy = 10 Indians being smashed, has been translated in the idea of destroying India by a 1000 cuts. It is something that India can take it in its stride, but in the bargain, it resurrected the fire of Islamic 'superiority' all Muslim harbour. The initial success in Kashmir, ignite Zia's zeal to take on the Russians in Afghanistan with US arms and money, that turned successful.

The fundamentalists that were unleashed became heady with the success and they thought they could take on the world. Foolishly they took on their benefactor, the US and they have met their current doom, wherein they are foolishly dying in Afghanistan and also their country is in total turmoil and they are killing each other and also, they are so confused that they are in a mental limbo as to whether to have a military regime or have a civilian Govt.

They blow hot and cold against their benefactor, the US, but cannot abandon the US since they are the Masters who feed, cloth and pay for their existence.

In other word, they are not a country in its real sense.

Hence, who won and who lost?

That would have happened with our without 1971. Afghan invasion was bound to happen and the Great game would have played out leading to the terrorists being diverted to J&K as it happened later.

 

[Ray]

I am no crystal ball gazer and so I cannot say that it would happen even without 1971.

What were the indications that it would?

As per the books, they seem to feel that the Mujhs were the fallout of Zia's 1000 cuts where he honed his strategy and played up to the US.

 

[Bangalorean]

Of course it has helped!!! Can you imagine a nuclear BD with missiles pointed towards Guwahati and Kolkata??

The N-E has had its share of insurgencies as it is, and if BD was Pak, those insurgencies would have been ten times worse!

Of course the breakup has benefited India!

 

[Yusuf]

I don't think we would have seen terror as we see today if Astan war of the 80s had not happened. But then we could still have had a cold war and the USSR still in existence and India still supported by the soviets would not have initiated reforms and we still would be in a mess!! God this IF can bring out so many scenarios!!

 

[mayfair]

I am no crystal ball gazer and so I cannot say that it would happen even without 1971.

What were the indications that it would?

As per the books, they seem to feel that the Mujhs were the fallout of Zia's 1000 cuts where he honed his strategy and played up to the US.

The Afghan war would have happened irrespective of 1971..two completely unrelated events.
Indian would have gone ahead with the nuclear test, leading to ghaas khaayenge..hazaar saal maraayenge rant from Bhutto and the AQ Khan saga..
India would have still pre-empted Paki perfidy and cartographic aggression on Siachen
The perceived successes of the US-backed jihad in Afghanistan would have still emboldened the Pakis to support terror in India. They were already supporting the Khalistanis and supporting Kashmiris would have been an obvious development.

If not 1971, Pakis would have found something else to initiate their war by thousand cuts. The entire premise of the country is based on hating India, Indians (Hindus for them) and kaafir (in no particular order).

I agree that none of us are prophets to know with certainity what would have happened..but given what HAS happened and our understanding of the Paki national character a few guesses can be made with some degree of confidence

Pakis have virtually ceded Gilgit-Baltistan to Chinese and would have done the same to Gwador if not for Chinese reluctance to be caught in the quagmire of Baloch insurgency and become another USSR in Afghanistan. I bet my months salary (a pittance actually but that's besides the point) that the Pakis would have done the same in their East Wing.
Invite the Chinese to setup PLA, PLAAF and PLAAN bases,
Invite them to station their nuclear tipped missiles there,
Invite their corporations to invest in gas, mining, forestry and agriculture..
Withdraw most of their forces to the West or the "real" Pakistan, content in the knowledge that India would be forced to spread their troops to counter the Chinese on at least two fronts in the North and the East, thereby, balancing the power equation on the Western front.

East Pakistan was treated as a colony and with nothing but contempt by the TFTA Pakis. However, we ould have been left sandwiched between nuclear tipped missiles from the West, the North and East, with nowhere to go but the ocean.

 

[Tianshan]

i think it is possible to say that the split up was inevitable, given the geography and the fact that the two sides had no land connection with each other.

however, india's involvement gives the pakistani leadership and people, a reason to hate india forever. regardless of whether or not india was actually hurting them, or simply speeding up the inevitable, both of which are plausible.

 

[Ray]

i think it is possible to say that the split up was inevitable, given the geography and the fact that the two sides had no land connection with each other.

however, india's involvement gives the pakistani leadership and people, a reason to hate india forever. regardless of whether or not india was actually hurting them, or simply speeding up the inevitable, both of which are plausible.

I wonder if the split was inevitable. Geography should not have been an inhibitor.

Pakistanis hate Indians ever since the Independence. History witnesses the same.

Whether it is hurting Pakistan or not is also being seen.

Pakistan is in total chaos!

 

[pankaj nema]

We need to see this issue in its entire perspective and NOT what happened after 1971

The India Pakistan fight has its roots much before partition and independence

Pakistan and Pakistanis have considered themselves as successors of the Mughal empire

" We are Mughals " This is what was told to Pakistani children by their elders after 1947

Pakistani mentality is that they hate the FACT that even after centuries of Islamic rule Hindus got their country
back and this is considered as a failure on the part of their ancestors

Pakistan ever since its creation has had one dream

This dream was expressed in the form of a slogan in 1965 war

This slogan was " GREEN flag on RED Fort "

For ACHIEVING this dream of destroying and breaking up India it was COMPLETELY necessary
FOR Pakistan that the TERRITORY or LAND of Bangladesh was in the hand of Punjabis and Pathans

Whether or not Bangladesh was to be created at a future date, Pakistani animosity and hatred towards
Hindus would have ALWAYS been there

 

[pankaj nema]

The Pakistani perspective of 1971 DEBACLE on which there is PLENTY of material
available on the internet clearly states that

"Pakistan LOST for ever the ABILITY to have PARITY with India and stand on an equal footing "

This proves that they are still Hurting

Similarly and more importantly Pakistan LOST its MIND after the 1971 debacle and like a broken person
who drowns himself in alcohol Pakistan immersed itself in religion

The effects of which are there for the whole world to see

 

[pankaj nema]

We should not forget that 25 percent Bangladeshis have an Islamist and Jamaati mindset
which is at the root of India Bangladeshi UNEASINESS

25 % Bangladeshis are ISI fans admirers and lovers according to our PM

So how much easier it would have been for the Pakistani punjabi establishment to cause harm to India

 

[Daredevil]

Our job is only half-finished. We need to finish our job by breaking up the Pakistan as it exists now. I'm sure even Pakistanis will agree with this.

 

[pankaj nema]

Pakistan till 1971 believed that it could win a war against India because China threat will cause a thinning
of Indian armed forces and India will have to cater for three fronts

ie China ,East Pakistan and West Pakistan which is what we precisely did in 1971

The fighting with Pakistan was on both fronts and on the western front we managed only a few small gains

Now when our THREE strike corps are MOBILISED It causes " Brown salwars " in GHQ Rawalpindi

So pakistan has LOST Not only LAND, Natural Resources and Talented people it has been FORCED
to seek strategic depth in Afghanistan because of its very thin and elongated geography

 

[Virendra]

Perhaps this is also a reason that West Pakistan didn't care much for the Eastern. Because if they cared, they would have a hand tied behind and would be weak against India.
I may be wrong here. Does anyone else agree with this?

 

[pankaj nema]

We must remember that PUNJAB terror experiment was the PRE cursor to Kashmir terrorism

But if pakistan and Bangladesh would have remained ONE this EXPERIMENT would have
HAPPENED in West Bengal AND Assam

America wanted to give SOVIET Union its own Vietnam war

So America helped Afghan militants and Pakistan army with liberal financial and military help

Even though Soviet invasion of Afghanistan was NOT in India's Interest (because it INCREASED Pakistan's
IMPORTANCE overnight ) we could do NOTHING about it

So it is safe to assume that A FEW THOUSAND Battle hardened Jihadis would have been UNLEASHED
in Bangladesh to go on a rampage in Assam and West Bengal after 1989 or even earlier