United States backtracks on order of Javelin missile sale to India

Drsomnath999

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A dangerous flashpoint in United States-India relations faces visiting US Secretary of Defence, Leon Panetta, who faces tough questions from Indian officials on Tuesday. The US State Department has slashed India's request for Javelin anti-tank missiles, offering instead a smaller quantity that Washington sources say is "less than half of what India has requested for."

Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD) officials are furious that Washington, an avowed strategic partner, has pared down India's requirement of Javelin missiles, even while arguing that defence sales are a cornerstone of the US-Indian strategic relationship.

"This (US reduced offer) is a deal killer. Washington will not dictate the quantity of weaponry we need. This will severely damage the prospects of US vendors in future arms contracts," a South Block official told Business Standard.



This unexpected rebuff stems from the US Department of Political-Military Affairs, a State Department office that examines the political fallout of proposed US arms sales. Pol-Mil Affairs, as this department is called, often nixes or curtails arms sales because they might "destabilise the regional military balance."

Neither the US Embassy in New Delhi, nor the Ministry of External Affairs (MEA), is prepared to reveal the reason provided by Washington for slashing the Indian request. The Ministry of External Affairs and the MoD have not responded to requests for comments.

US Embassy spokesperson, Peter Vrooman, said, "We don't discuss individual sales. Secretary Panetta looks forward to having an exchange with the Government of India on a broad range of issues."

Andrew Shapiro, the Assistant Secretary of State for Political-Military Affairs, had told Business Standard, in an exclusive interaction during his visit to New Delhi on April 17, that Washington had cleared the transfer of technology for manufacturing the Javelin missile in India. Given that readiness to transfer high-end technology, the curbs placed by Washington on the missile numbers remain inexplicable.

The FGM-148 Javelin, built by US companies Lockheed Martin and Raytheon, is one of the two anti-tank guided missiles (ATGMs) that the Indian Army is evaluating for its 350-odd infantry battalions. The other is the Spike, built by Israeli company, Rafael. These are both shoulder-launched, "fire-and-forget" ATGMs, which means that they autonomously track their targets after they are fired by a two-man crew.

Both missiles are scheduled to come to India for user evaluation trials later this year. However, the Javelin has already impressed the Indian Army. During joint exercises with the US Army, Indian missile crews have fired ten Javelin missiles. All ten hit their targets.

The US industry, which has heavy stakes in a successful Javelin sale to India, is sharply critical of the State Department for curtailing the Indian request. "Offering a reduced number of missiles will almost certainly kill the Javelin deal; in fact it seems to almost be designed to be so. It seems as if Hillary Clinton herself remains unconvinced about the India relationship and is trying to set a different tone," complains an industry member.

A key US frustration in the defence relationship has been New Delhi's refusal to sign three defence cooperation agreements that Washington has pressed for: a Communications Interoperability and Security Memorandum of Agreement (CISMOA); a Basic Exchange and Cooperation Agreement for Geo-spatial Cooperation (BECA); and a Logistics Support Agreement (LSA). New Delhi believes that signing these agreements would put it overtly in the US camp, diluting its "multi-aligned" foreign policy that emphasises strong relations with multiple foreign powers.

There are also growing frustrations in Washington over India's resistance to allow US "end-user" inspections of weaponry sold to Indian security forces. New Delhi regards end-user monitoring as a violation of sovereignty.
United States backtracks on order of Javelin missile sale to India | idrw.org
 

Bangalorean

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There are also growing frustrations in Washington over India's resistance to allow US "end-user" inspections of weaponry sold to Indian security forces. New Delhi regards end-user monitoring as a violation of sovereignty.
United States backtracks on order of Javelin missile sale to India | idrw.org
Make it clear that there will be no "end-user inspections", ever. I hope we have made this clear in unequivocal terms. I am not sure why there are "growing frustrations in Washington" about this - don't sell stuff if you don't agree with the conditions, simple.
 

noob101

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Unkils policy of "not destabilizing regions" makes little sense to me in this case... if it takes 20,000 missiles to have an overwhelming edge over PA then the region is already destabilized... when they were willing to sell 126 f16/ f18 or even eventually f35's without "destabilizing the region" how the hell are a few missiles going to make more of a difference than selling 6 squardrons of aircraft that are far far better than what the PAF has...
 

sukhish

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the state department is filled with cold war era people, they still try to use this strategic balance theory. this will fade away. if U.S does not want to supply us, that is there choice. we will develop our own. anyways India U.S ties will take lot of time and effort. India is in no hurry. if and when U.S feels confortable we can go ahead.
 

Ray

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If Javelins are bought by India, it will give an devastating punch for the Indian Army for the Concept of what is known as the Cold Start.

It will destroy whatever chances the Pak armour may have to halt the limited offensive.

That might be the belief held by the US.
 

sukhish

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so what does the U.S want ? it is still trying to balance India pakistan
 

hitesh

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Specifications FGM-148 Javelin

Weight Missile: 11.8 kg (26 lb)[1]
CLU: 6.4 kg (14.1 lb)
Length Missile: 1.1 m (43 in)
Launch tube: 1.2 m (47 in)
Diameter Missile: 127 mm (5.0 in)
Launch tube: 142 mm (5.6 in)
Crew 2
Effective range 75 to 2500 m
Warhead Tandem shaped charge HEAT
Warhead weight 8.4 kg (18.5 lb)[2]
Detonation
mechanism Impact force
Engine Solid fuel rocket
Guidance
system Imaging infrared (IIR)



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Specifications Spike

Weight Spike-ER from helicopter:

"¢ Missile in canister: 34 kg (74 lb 15 oz)
"¢ Launcher: 55 kg (121 lb 4 oz)
"¢ Launcher + 4 missiles: 187 kg (412 lb 4 oz)
Spike-MR/LR from ground:[1]
"¢ Missile round: 14 kg (30 lb 14 oz)
"¢ Command & launch unit (CLU): 5 kg (11 lb 0 oz)
"¢ Tripod: 2.8 kg (6 lb 3 oz)
"¢ Battery: 1 kg (2 lb 3 oz)
"¢ Thermal sight: 4 kg (8 lb 13 oz)
Length 1,670 mm (5 ft 6 in) (Missile w/launcher)
Diameter 170 mm (6.7 in) (Missile w/launcher)
Rate of fire Ready to launch in 30 seconds, reload in 15 seconds
Maximum range 800 to 25,000 m (870 to 27,000 yd) depending on version
Sights 10× optical sight
Warhead Tandem-charge HEAT warhead
Detonation
mechanism Impact
Engine Solid-fuel rocket
Guidance
system Infrared homing – Electro Optical (CCD, IR or Dual CCD/IIR), Passive CCD or dual CCD/IIR seeker
 
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Archer

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If Javelins are bought by India, it will give an devastating punch for the Indian Army for the Concept of what is known as the Cold Start.

It will destroy whatever chances the Pak armour may have to halt the limited offensive.

That might be the belief held by the US.
Very true sir!

The IA will overnight have its anti tank abilities boosted by a huge amount if every unit or two carries a couple of Javelins. That would mean the firepower carried by the IA is enhanced.

If the US cannot supply us these. Then enough - buy the Spike and buy it in number and make it locally.

Spike is in widespread service so should be decently reliable.
Spike (missile) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This incidentally is what Defense News stated:

Defense News reports that the Indian Army is about to order Spike missiles and peripheral equipment in a $1 billion deal. Indian Ministry of Defence officials told the magazine that the order is for 321 launchers, 8,356 missiles, and 15 training simulators, and peripheral equipment.[31]

This is in all probability, the same deal for which Javelin was competing.

321 launchers seems an underestimate. Assuming India reequips its battalions at the rate of 4 launchers per unit (an underestimate even there) based on (Bharat Rakshak :: Land Forces Site - Infantry Battalion Structure looking at the RCL).

Thats some 80 battalions!

The advantage of the Javelin versus the Spike IMO - I havent researched either system in detail but it seems to be the case is that the Javelin is a more flexible system than the Spike. Range upto 2.5 km, minimum of 75m, versus the Spike which has two missiles -the MR (2.5 km range but minimum range is more) for SR, you need the Spike SR which ranges upto 800meters.

Compare: Both J and S-MR have a sight which is attached to the missile tube and retained. The tube is discarded. I presume it is this sight which is being referred to as the launcher.

Javelin:File:FGM-148 Javelin - ID 030206-M-5753Q-004.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Spike MR:http://defense-update.com/images_lr/spike_mr_team.jpg
 

Archer

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Ok, this deal seems different: Rafael in $1b Indian anti-tank missile deal - Globes

"Defense News" reports that the Indian Army is about to order thousands of Spike anti-tank missiles and peripheral equipoment from Rafael Advanced Defense Systems Ltd. in a $1 billion deal. Indian Ministry of Defence officials told the magazine that the order is for 321 launchers, 8,356 missiles, and 15 training simulators, and peripheral equipment.
Rafael was the only bidder in the tender, which was published in June 2010, and the Indian Army had to obtain a special permit to sign a deal on the basis of a tender with just one potential vendor. General Dynamics Corporation (NYSE: GD), Raytheon Company (NYSE: RTN), Pan-European MBDA, and Russia's Rosoboronexport decided not to participate in the tender.
"Defense News" quotes sources as saying the technology transfer was the main obstacle. The magazine did not say whether the companies that stayed out of the tender refused to share their technology with India, nor is Rafael's position on the matter made clear.
"Defense News" says that the Indian Army will receive various configurations of the Spike, including ready-for-use missiles already assembled in Israel, partly assembled missiles whose final assembly will take place in India, and missiles that will be fully assembled by Bharat Dynamics Ltd., an Indian government-owned company.
The Indian Army plans to install the Spike missile systems on Russian built combat vehicles. Indian officials said that tests in battlefield conditions have been completed, and that the Spike missiles met all the specifications set by the Indian Army: a range of 2.5 kilometers in day and night conditions, and a 90% accuracy rate. The tender also stipulates that the missiles must have 3G active-passive fire-and-forget guidance systems.
These are clearly Spike MR, and based on a quick estimate, probably intended to supplant those Milan2 equipped vehicles which are not receiving the Milan 2T. Russian vehicles quite clearly mean BMPs. 321 launchers seems sufficient in that case. Probably SF Jongas/Jeeps too which are often seen with the Milan launcher otherwise!
 

Archer

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So, if this Javelin deal was for infantry and the IA holding is of ~40K odd missiles, out of 80K authorized per media reports - and say half of that is for Javelin since it should be easily able to supplant/replace Milan 2 requirement, we are clearly looking at anywhere from ~15K to 30 K missiles for the Army. This was clearly a huge deal!

Other reports are confusing and make the point that both these deals are the same but even so thats 8000 missiles at the very least. Silly of the US if they indeed said no.
 
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Bhadra

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If Javelins are bought by India, it will give an devastating punch for the Indian Army for the Concept of what is known as the Cold Start.

It will destroy whatever chances the Pak armour may have to halt the limited offensive.

That might be the belief held by the US.
Sir, what happened to DODOs? They have been promisisng manportable ATGM to IA for last 25 years ! Phus Phus .... !
 

Mr.Ryu

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It's ok if they not sell us the missile we can always have another source to get another similar missile may be little low on reliability but NO WAY we give in to their tactics of End user agreement :bs: where they come and look at where we keep missile and how we use it after we got them.

They give Puki weapons that they dont use against Taliban and puki send it to Iran and NK and make money but the doubt us :( let it be but no way we agree to their EUA ever end of the day.
 

ejazr

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Its looks like the Pentagon and the US defence industry wants to sell the Javelins and its only the state dept. that is opposed to it. IF the "destablising the region" rhetoric is correct, then it could refer to China as well as Pakistan. Just like China is sensitive to defence deals with Taiwan, it won't be surprising if it meddles in defence deals with the US.

However, another part of the same report says that the US is interested in local manufacturing of Javelin missiles as well. So its a bit confusing. Maybe its a tactic to force India to sign BECA, CISMOA e.t.c.? In any case, it would be a severe drawback given that the IA is clearly impressed by this missile during the trials and decided on buying this while it rejected the SPike ATGMs as far back as 2010
http://www.defensenews.com/article/...a-Chooses-U-S-Built-Javelin-Anti-Tank-Missile
 

hit&run

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Can someone tell what is happening with Spike missile deal.

As per wiki
India Defense News reports that the Indian Army is about to order Spike missiles and peripheral equipment in a $1 billion deal. Indian Ministry of Defence officials told the magazine that the order is for 321 launchers, 8,356 missiles, and 15 training simulators, and peripheral equipment.
 

bhramos

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Does the Spike come under IMI!! which got banned for 10years!!!!

How many are US ready to offer!!!
 

jackhammer2

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Does the Spike come under IMI!! which got banned for 10years!!!!

How many are US ready to offer!!!
No Spike is Rafale's product

Spike is a fourth generation[2] man-portable fire-and-forget anti-tank guided missile with tandem-charged HEAT warhead, developed and designed by the Israeli company Rafael Advanced Defense Systems

Spike (missile) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

p2prada

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Make it clear that there will be no "end-user inspections", ever. I hope we have made this clear in unequivocal terms. I am not sure why there are "growing frustrations in Washington" about this - don't sell stuff if you don't agree with the conditions, simple.
EUM contract has already been signed. CISMOA, LSA and BECA are left, but I don't think we will sign these. It is entirely unnecessary from India's POV because we can replace radios and communication equipment with our own.

We don't want US forces in India, so LSA is not necessary too.

Does the Spike come under IMI!! which got banned for 10years!!!!

How many are US ready to offer!!!
Rafael survived the ban because of Barak project. Without it they would have been banned as well. I am not sure whether any new deals with them will be entertained beyond what has already been signed like the 8000+ Spikes.

That would make Javelin the only missile available. So the US may force our hands to cancel the deal, start afresh and stick a much larger price tag on it. Who knows?
 

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