Turkey shot down Russian Su 24

pmaitra

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After Nabbing Russian Jet Turkey’s Erdogan is More Isolated Than Ever
Erdogan’s ploy to increase the wedge between Russia and NATO by ambushing a Russian warplane backfired. Couldn’t happen to a nicer guy
  • RI’s Alexander Mercouris argued for as much as soon as the news of the show down broke
(Al-Monitor) | Russia Insider



Originally appeared at Al-Monitor

The Turkish president is on the defensive after Turkey’s shooting down of a Russian warplane; the Syrian war enters a more dangerous phase.

The most notable consequence so far of Turkey’s shooting down a Russian fighter Nov. 24 has been a possible opening for a deepening of Russia’s cooperation with the US-led coalition against the Islamic State and a free fall in Turkish-Russian relations.

Russian President Vladimir Putin and French President Francois Hollande agreed Nov. 26 to share information about targets in Syria and to strike “only terrorists.” Putin added that Russia is “ready to cooperate” with the US-led anti-Islamic State coalition.

Credit for the inspired diplomacy of turning crisis into opportunity goes to Hollande and US President Barack Obama, who apparently have decided that the overall objective of ending the war in Syria should not be held hostage to Turkey’s aggressive response to the Russian warplane’s alleged violation of Turkish airspace.

In another sign of Turkey’s increasing isolation on Syria, The Wall Street Journal’s above-the-fold feature on Nov. 28 was a report on how the United States has been pressing Turkey to seal its side of the Turkish-Syrian border. The article quotes a senior Obama administration official as saying “enough is enough. … This is an international threat, and it’s all coming out of Syria and it’s coming through Turkish territory.”

Metin Gurcan explains the context of the battle that led to the confrontation between Russian and Turkish aircraft. Gurcan writes that Syrian military forces backed by Iranian Shiite militias and Russian air power have been battling Turkmens, the Army of Conquest, and Jabhat al-Nusra forces in the predominantly Turkmen Bayirbucak region since Nov. 19, which is only nine miles from the Turkish border.

Syria and its allies are seeking to clean this mountainous and densely forested area from opposition fighters as a precursor of further Syrian regime and Russian moves toward Idlib and Aleppo and “to expel Chechen Caucasian fighters from Bayirbucak” in advance of a possible cease-fire.

Semih Idiz reports that Ankara had protested Russian and Syrian attacks on Syrian Turkmen forces in this region, and quotes Turkish Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu as saying Nov. 22, two days before the incident, “We are prepared to take all the necessary diplomatic and other measures in order to protect our brothers there, and wherever they may be, against any threat, and to preserve their human rights.”

Idiz explains how Turkey’s actions have served to undermine its case in support of its Turkmen allies in Syria:

“Once Turkey’s national ‘feel good’ moment of having shown its resolve and military capability by the downing of the Russian jet fighter is over, attention will shift to the diplomatic field to see what political fallout there is in the aftermath of this incident. …

NATO went through the motions of calling for an emergency meeting to discuss the issue, as it has to by its charter, but few expect it to opt for an escalation of the crisis.

Given that there is little sympathy in the West for radical Islamic groups following the Paris attack, and that France is acting with Russia to bomb IS targets in Raqqa, it is likely that Moscow will have the upper hand at the Security Council.

This means that Turkey is unlikely to gain much sympathy from its allies for the Turkmens, or other radical Sunni groups in the region fighting the Syrian regime. Turkey ultimately remains at odds with its allies over the question of fighting the Assad regime, which US Secretary of State John Kerry has said is not part of their military mission in Syria, where they are to fight IS and to aid groups committed to fight this group.

Without the active support of its allies, though, there is little that Turkey can do in the end to respond to Russia and the Assad regime in northern Syria in order to secure the Sunni-dominated political configuration in the region that it wishes to see.”

The incident has drawn increased scrutiny to Turkey’s approach to Syria’s Kurds, which is in direct contrast with both US policy and Russian initiatives in Syria. Erdogan said Oct. 14 that there is “no difference” between the Patriotic Union Party of Syria (PYD), the leading Syrian Kurdish group there, and the Islamic State.

The US has singled out the People’s Protection Units (YPG), the armed wing of the PYD, as among its most effective Syrian partners, so US and Turkish policy will eventually face a day of reckoning, as the differences are to date irreconcilable.

Cengiz Candar writes that “the souring of relations between Ankara and Moscow might also cast a shadow on the cooperation between Turkey and the United States to evict IS from the 98-kilometer (61-mile) border that is still under the control of IS in northern Syria.

Turkey enlisted the Americans by opening up its Incirlik Air Base in exchange for a tacit pledge to prevent YPG forces from moving ‘west of the Euphrates.’ If Russia were to provide overt support to the YPG in its quest to remove IS from the border region, such a political move could further complicate not only US-Russian relations but also the cooperation between Washington and Ankara.

After all, Turkey is a member of NATO, but for Washington, under an Obama administration serving its last year in office and increasingly reluctant to engage in any sort of direct military involvement in Syria, it might be difficult to push ‘the unruly teenager of the Transatlantic Alliance’ to invoke Article 5.”

Zulfikar Dogan describes how Erdogan’s Justice and Development Party (AKP) has successfully divided and weakened the Peoples’ Democratic Party (HDP) by equating the HDP with the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK). Orhan Cengiz reports that a shadowy Islamist paramilitary force, termed “Allah’s lions” (Esedullah), has been operating in Turkey’s predominantly Kurdish southeast regions against the PKK. The security situation in these areas is the worst it has been in a decade.

“What has emerged so far from news reports, witness accounts and images in the media,” Cengiz writes, “suggests that a group within the police — religiously motivated, heavy-handed and hostile to Kurds — is increasingly taking the forefront in security operations in the southeast.

The locals tend to believe these policemen share the same mindset as IS fighters and see them as an IS-linked paramilitary force. Regardless of whether this perception has any factual basis or stems from psychological fears only, one thing is certain: It serves no good for Turkey’s Kurdish problem, already mired in conflict, tensions and mistrust.”

Erdogan has shown signs of seeking to de-escalate the crisis, which has proved a fiasco, despite the nationalist chest thumping, as Pinar Tremblay reports, and the platitudes about self-defense from NATO allies.

Erdogan has appealed, so far without success, for a meeting with Putin, perhaps during the climate talks that start in Paris on Nov. 30. Such a meeting, in the company of other world leaders, could yet be another step forward for a political settlement in Syria and a more coordinated military campaign against the Islamic State.

Syrian war enters new, more dangerous phase

Turkey’s shooting down of the Russian jet signals that the Syrian war has entered a new, more dangerous phase. No more is Syria just a “proxy war” between Syrian parties backed by Iran on the one side, and Qatar, Saudi Arabia and Turkey on the other.

The battlefield now includes American, Russian and Iranian “boots on the ground.” Russia has two military bases and provides air cover for all of Syria.

Turkey prudently suspended its air operations over Syria. The stakes have far exceeded both Erdogan’s personal vendetta against Assad and his desire to thwart the Syrian Kurds.

Turkey’s reckless action put NATO on the hook for a type of escalation that would have repercussions beyond Syria. The credit goes to Obama, Hollande and Putin for weathering the storm.

The incident draws attention to Turkey’s grudging and half-hearted contribution to the war in Syria. If Russian planes were indeed targeting groups affiliated with Jabhat al-Nusra, should Ankara not grant them a few minutes of airspace? The point here is not to get into the back-and-forth about the specifics of whether the Russian and Turkish planes followed appropriate procedures to change the flight path of the Russian plane.

The point, more broadly, is that Turkey’s actions in the war against the Islamic State may be of a lesser nature than those of Russia and Iran, not to mention Assad’s forces, who are actually engaging Islamic State and Jabhat al-Nusra fighters. There are also the questions of the flow of foreign fighters and illicit trade along the Turkish-Syrian border, which are the subject of several UN Security Council resolutions.

Another dimension of the new phase of the Syria war regards the role of Syrian troops in the battle against Islamic State and Jabhat al-Nusra. Both Hollande and French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius referred to the use of Syrian government troops to combat the Islamic State, although only in the context of a political transition without Assad.

The reality is that Syrian troops, backed by Iran, Hezbollah and Russia, are the most effective Arab force battling these terrorist groups, as Arab coalition forces are almost nonexistent, as Bruce Riedel wrote last week, and many of the opposition forces are now penetrated by Jabhat al-Nusra, as the United Nations and other organizations have pointed out.

It might be a fair question to ask that if Syrian military forces, backed by Iran and Hezbollah, retake Aleppo, will the citizens of Aleppo be clamoring for the return of sectarian forces backed by the Arab Gulf states, or welcome the new forces in hopes of calm?

If the Vienna process gets traction in the coming months, the next frontier will be whether those who have backed opposition and Salafi forces in Syria, especially Saudi Arabia, will keep their focus on whether Assad should go, as part of a negotiation over a transition, or continue to carry the fight against the so-called “Iranian axis” to break Iran’s relationship with Syria.

This trend is worth watching, especially if the Russian-Iranian-Syrian-Hezbollah alignment continues to take the fight to terrorists on the ground, and both Syrians and the international community, eager to end the scourge of Islamic State and other terrorist groups once and for all, grow tired of the sectarian agendas that have caused so much misery for the Syrian people.
 

salute

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...................................................................
 

rockey 71

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1.It is becoming clearer:



a. Turkey has been interested in supporting its allies who sell them oil cheap.

b. Russia has been wanting to meddle in ME somehow to show off that after all she is also a super power. Here Putin's mentality is to to understood.

c. Russia wants to showcase its weaponry to the market. Most notably it wants to display the awesome S-300.

d. The West/NATO will not stand by and watch the Russians idly. They have propped Turkey to act.



2. Now we have to see

American F-22s and B-2 Bombers vs. Russia's S-300 in Syria: Who Wins?


http://nationalinter...-who-wins-13905
 

Scarface

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1.It is becoming clearer:



a. Turkey has been interested in supporting its allies who sell them oil cheap.

b. Russia has been wanting to meddle in ME somehow to show off that after all she is also a super power. Here Putin's mentality is to to understood.

c. Russia wants to showcase its weaponry to the market. Most notably it wants to display the awesome S-300.

d. The West/NATO will not stand by and watch the Russians idly. They have propped Turkey to act.



2. Now we have to see

American F-22s and B-2 Bombers vs. Russia's S-300 in Syria: Who Wins?


http://nationalinter...-who-wins-13905
There's really no question of who wins,
The F-22 won't break a sweat going SEAD against an S-300

And not to mention that 4th Gen aircraft can saturate a S-300 and other integrated air defenses like Pantsir system with stand off weaponry like HARMs and JASSMs which allow them to stay comfortably out of the S-300s range and fire their loads.

S-400 is the real elephant in the room
 

pmaitra

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Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Aerospace Forces handed over the Gold Star medal of the pilot Oleg Peshkov killed in Syria to the spouse

Russia: Funeral held for Su-24 rescue op marine Alexander Pozynich

RIP
 
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Akim

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Syria? No Georgia. South Ossetian fighters shooting in the air the pilot.
 

Scarface

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TURKEY MOBILIZES ELECTRONIC WARFARE SYSTEMS IN RESPONSE TO S-400

http://cont.ws/post/155047

The system is called KORAL,nothing else is known about it,can't even find a wikipedia article on it.
 

rockey 71

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Corrected. Pleas disregard the old one
 
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Bornubus

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Who is in control of the area which borders Israel Asad or Resistance/terrorists.

Any idea guys.
 

nirranj

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Not sure if already posted.

The Russian Sukhoi Su-24M bomber was brought down by the Turkish Air Force in Syrian airspace, Greek Minister of National Defense Panos Kammenos said in an interview to the Mega TV channel on Wednesday.

"The attack (on Su-24M) took place in Syrian airspace. This is beyond doubt," he said. "The Turkish side knows that, otherwise Ankara would ask to invoke Article 5 of the NATO Charter, requesting the Alliance’s help."

"This is undoubtedly a military action in the territory of another state," Kammenos said. "But even more important point is the murder of the pilot, who was shot dead by members of the Turkish extremist group Grey Wolves."

Asked which side Greece should take, as a NATO member, the minister said - "the truth". "If Russia had violated Turkish airspace, we would support Ankara", the defense minister said.
http://tass.ru/en/defense/840960
 

rockey 71

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http://world.einnews.com/article/300341598/Ib1SZyqlrozU-e7N

Exclusive: U.S. puts request for bigger Turkish air role on hold
Fri Dec 4, 2015 9:51pm EST

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By Phil Stewart and Warren Strobel

WASHINGTON(Reuters) - Since Turkey shot down a Russian fighter jet last week, the United States has quietly put on hold a long-standing request for its NATO ally to play a more active role in the U.S.-led air war against Islamic State.

The move, disclosed to Reuters by a U.S. official, is aimed at allowing just enough time for heightened Turkey-Russia tensions to ease. Turkey has not flown any coalition air missions in Syria against Islamic State since the Nov. 24 incident, two U.S. officials said.

The pause is the latest complication over Turkey's role to have tested the patience of U.S. war planners, who want a more assertive Turkish contribution -- particularly in securing a section of border with Syria that is seen as a crucial supply route for Islamic State.

As Britain starts strikes in Syria and France ramps up its role in the wake of last month's attacks on Paris by the extremist group, U.S. Defense Secretary Ash Carter publicly appealed this week for a greater Turkish military role.

The top U.S. priority is for Turkey to secure its southern border with Syria, the first official said. U.S. concern is focused on a roughly 60-mile (98-km) stretch used by Islamic State to shuttle foreign fighters and illicit trade back and forth.

But the United States also wants to see more Turkish air strikes devoted to Islamic State, even as Washington firmly supports Ankara's strikes against Turkey's Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK), viewed by both countries as a terrorist group.

Carter told a congressional hearing this week that most Turkish air operations have been targeted at the PKK rather than at Islamic State, but U.S. officials acknowledge some promising signs from Turkey, including moves to secure key border crossings.

For example, Turkish F-16 fighter jets last month joined an air operation to support Syrian rebels taking back two villages from Islamic State along the so-called Mara Line, a senior Obama administration official told reporters, speaking on condition of anonymity.

The United States does not give data on the number or type of missions conducted by Turkish air force flights in Syria.

Turkey rejects any suggestion it is not playing its part in the fight against ISIL.

"We have taken part in at least half of the operations," a senior Turkish official told Reuters. "Apart from that, Turkey takes part in identifying targets and providing logistics and bases. We are in close cooperation with the U.S."

Russian President Vladimir Putin branded Turkey's shoot-down a war crime on Thursday and said Turkey would face further sanctions. Moscow has already banned some Turkish food imports as part of a wider package of retaliatory sanctions.

The United States hopes that tensions between Moscow and Ankara will ease quickly, allowing Turkey to take a more prominent role inside the U.S.-led coalition's air campaign, the first official said.

The Pentagon declined to comment on the status of Turkish flights since the shoot-down. Two Turkish officials declined to directly comment but stressed that Turkey remained part of the air coalition.

"For us nothing has changed," a senior Turkish official told Reuters.

U.S. officials stressed that overall coalition air operations had been unaffected by the tensions between Turkey and Russia.

There is debate within the Obama administration on how hard to push Turkey. U.S. officials broadly acknowledge its support has been vital to the U.S.-led campaign in Syria, allowing the coalition to stage strike missions out of a Turkish air base.

Turkey, for its part, has grown frustrated over the past few years at what it sees as indecision on the part of the United States and its Western allies, arguing that only Syrian President Bashar al-Assad's removal from power can bring lasting peace.

(Additional reporting by Nick Tattersall in Istanbul and Jonathan Landay in Washington; editing by Stuart Grudgings.)
 

pmaitra

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Interesting Tweet.


Would any ISIS-Turkey-Jihadi apologist counter this point?
 

spikey360

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Who is in control of the area which borders Israel Asad or Resistance/terrorists.

Any idea guys.
Terrorists. Funded and supported by Izz. Some months ago, izz fired rockets into Syrian territory and even months before that, about a year ago from now, Israel destroyed some Syrian arms cache. Clearly exhibiting their support for anti-Assad forces.
 

spikey360

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If I am in charge of Russia, I will not think about Turkey as of now. I will just deploy few more air dominance fighters, S400 batteries and issue a warning that we will defend our interests. Same as what Russia has done now.

No trade embargoes on Turkey. Trade embargoes are two sided swords that will hurt everyone. Instead I will force Turkey to accept more cost for the hydrocarbons and ask them to open up more fronts for Russian produce.

I will negotiate with Greece for stop over for Russian ships maneuvering in Mediterranean in exchange for a interest free loan and deployment of an S400 battalion in for safeguarding the air space as an add on option ;-)

I will also negotiate for deploying S400, lease an airbase for Russian long range flights, an agreement for port call of russian navy with Cyprus.

These will be effective ways rather than embargoes on Turkey!!!
Typical coward 'Indian' businessman attitude.
No wonder we will not be ruling the world(or Asia for that matter) anytime soon.

Russia will always be Russia. Russians always Russians. They waded through an ocean of turk blood to establish the Russian Empire, what makes you think it will be different now?
Money is not the most important thing in life. At least not for a great nation. How do you think they became the largest nation on earth? Not through buying land, I can tell you that!
 

nirranj

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Typical coward 'Indian' businessman attitude.
No wonder we will not be ruling the world(or Asia for that matter) anytime soon.

Russia will always be Russia. Russians always Russians. They waded through an ocean of turk blood to establish the Russian Empire, what makes you think it will be different now?
Money is not the most important thing in life. At least not for a great nation. How do you think they became the largest nation on earth? Not through buying land, I can tell you that!
They may have become a largest nation of the world through conquests. But in this new world order money has its power. With Russia now a free market economy dependent on commodity exports, what makes you think that they will not suffer? This means losing a market for exports. True that Russia has other markets from which it can import things that it had sanctioned on Turkey, similarly Turkey can import things from other nations, though costly due to transport.

Please do note that Turkey is a 800 billion dollar economy. Which is roughly 40% that of Russia.
 

spikey360

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They may have become a largest nation of the world through conquests. But in this new world order money has its power. With Russia now a free market economy dependent on commodity exports, what makes you think that they will not suffer?
I did not intone they would not suffer. In fact, they would probably suffer. Life in Russia is suffering. Russians are used to a lot of suffering, and some more suffering for slaying terrorist sympathisers is one they would suffer with a big smile.
Furthermore, note, 'AMERICA' has been putting a lot of 'sanctions' on Russia for the past 1.5 years. What has that yielded? It certainly did not make Russia yield an inch, although their economy suffered.
So, a little sanction here and a little sanction there means nothing to Russia and Russians.
This means losing a market for exports. True that Russia has other markets from which it can import things that it had sanctioned on Turkey, similarly Turkey can import things from other nations, though costly due to transport.
Yeah, so you see, you yourself counter argue your own argument, and rightly so. Nothing is impossible, just expensive.
Please do note that Turkey is a 800 billion dollar economy. Which is roughly 40% that of Russia.
It means nothing to Russia. They are not oil slaves like the Sauds. Oil gives them money, but it is more of a recent development. Oil is not historically Russia's bread and butter. They have made it their bread and butter.
But if you know Russians, they are as likely to eat cake as bread, as long as the enemy suffers.
Russia is a piece of old world, still left. And the world is fortunate that it is so.
 

nirranj

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I did not intone they would not suffer. In fact, they would probably suffer. Life in Russia is suffering. Russians are used to a lot of suffering, and some more suffering for slaying terrorist sympathisers is one they would suffer with a big smile.
Furthermore, note, 'AMERICA' has been putting a lot of 'sanctions' on Russia for the past 1.5 years. What has that yielded? It certainly did not make Russia yield an inch, although their economy suffered.
So, a little sanction here and a little sanction there means nothing to Russia and Russians.

Yeah, so you see, you yourself counter argue your own argument, and rightly so. Nothing is impossible, just expensive.

It means nothing to Russia. They are not oil slaves like the Sauds. Oil gives them money, but it is more of a recent development. Oil is not historically Russia's bread and butter. They have made it their bread and butter.
But if you know Russians, they are as likely to eat cake as bread, as long as the enemy suffers.
Russia is a piece of old world, still left. And the world is fortunate that it is so.
I wish they come out stronger! And I see Russia as a effective counter to the western hegemony. God bless Russia.
 

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