The Deadliest Warrior: Rajput vs Roman?

sandeepdg

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There's a show by the same name on National Geographic here in India. I have seen most of the episodes. My favorite was that between the Green Berets and Spetsnaz, and the other between the Samurai and the Spartan. According to me , the most fiercest warrior of all times were the Spartans !! They had unmatched capabilities for an human being ! From, India, Rajputs are the most fiercest warriors according to me, but in terms of organizational skills, my preference is for the warriors of the southern kingdoms of the Cholas and the Pandyas ! Don't forget that at their peak, the Chola dynasty had most powerful navy in whole of Asia with approximately 1000 ships !
 

sandeepdg

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"Turkey is famous for its cavalry, Kandahar for its elephants, and India for its armies"

This quote is wrong. I remember reading this.Its was like Arabs for its Calvary...cant remember the middle but wasn't about elephants.....and India for it armies. Its was quote by some ancient Arab scholar.
Its actually, "The Persians are famed for their archers, the Turks for their horsemen, and India for its armies". - An Arab proverb
 

The Messiah

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You are right. If mahabharata is true then in history of mankind there has never been a bigger Army and its bloodiest of all battles. Technology is also far more superior to what we have now.
which is what i find hard to believe.....i think mahabharata is over exaggerated. how can one lose such advance technology or even not find a single hint of it ?
 
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In the book chariots of the gods a Dutch scientist claimed to find radioactive levels similar to an atomic explosion taken from soil samples at the battlefield?
 

S.A.T.A

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Erich von Daniken's findings must be taken with lot more than a pinch of salt,still some would find it unpalatable.For starter Daniken thinks Hindu gods,among other ancient divinities,were ancient alien astronauts who visited earth longtime ago and spread civilization.Daniken can make even P N Oak look scholarly.
 

warriorextreme

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which is what i find hard to believe.....i think mahabharata is over exaggerated. how can one lose such advance technology or even not find a single hint of it ?
soon my friend we will loose all we have now..
the last battle will be fought with mere bows and stones..

पुनरपि जननं पुनरपि मरणं|
 

jatkshatriya

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i dont have much respect for rajputs..
they helped moughals..
i support marathas..maratha empire was started by chatrapati shivaji maharj and then peshawas became army leaders of maratha empire..they had the biggest Hindu empire...who can forget peshwa bajirao the first who never lost a battle in his life...

When people say such words they insult warriors like maharana Pratap, hameer Dev chauhan. Thakur Khangaar Singh Kacchawaha, Somedev Chauhan, many many more.The only rajputs who supported Mughals were the Shekawats and for sometime the rathores, But the Rathores fought against them many a times as well, When Shivaji was captured by the Mughals the Shekawat king Maan singh helped him escape, Shekawats were great diplomats, they maintained the balance of power though they compromised on honour but still protected their people from brutalities..More than the Rajputs who supported the Mughals there have been many many many more Rajputs who sacrificed everything fighting against them ...Their women burned themselves alive in jauhar to protect their honour...Only Rajput women have been known to do such act of exemplary bravery..rani Padmini the most famous one..Rajputs didnt support the Marathas caz even the marathas demanded wat the mughals demanded and that is Rajput should accept Maratha superiority.....which Rajputs didnt.
 

Virendra

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Oh how easy to insult a community on internet and wash your hands clean.
I don't know why people hold such narrow views with half baked knowledge of history. This is something I've been saying again and again on this forum.
When you go to History, you go to History; don't look at things from where you stand today. You have to reference from the times that prevailed then. They were the people of those times and as rulers of their respective kingdoms they did what they thought was right for them. There were separate autonomous kingdoms with little or no political alliance at all. The India at that time was an extremely loose federation of occasionally warring kingdoms with socio-religous being the only way of some similarity. There wasn't a notion of one country as you see today so don't look at it from this context in which people like you and I are bought in past six decades or more.

Now coming to the point, both Mughals and Marathas wanted the same thing from rajputs or any other regional player - allegiance under their umbrella and rule.
Rajputs had a humble abode on resource less harsh semi desert terrain. Many miss the point that they were merely defending themselves. They never went out on invasion spree and yet were in a fierce geopolitical fit.
There's a saying which expresses it all "Ek baade mein do sher saath nahi reh sakte". Too much individualism spelt doom time and again for rajputs who could've made stronger impact in history.
Even with so much potential, Rajputs failed to understand that chivalry or bravery uncoupled from diplomacy+greater unity cannot be effective. There was even less heed to issues like technology and infastructure. Rajputs were stationary there and hence were outclassed in weapons, out manouvered in tactics.
Consequently, the most valiant were consistently troubled by raids from Marathas and the Mughal supremacy. They ultimately got sandwitched between larger empires - Mughals and Marathas.
If old neighbors like rajputs and marathas failed to forge an alliance, the reasons run deep and blame of trust deficit doesn't lie merely on one side.

Allow me to throw light on something you probably never stumbled upon while starting to blabber with disrespect. The man Chatrapati Shivaji Maharaj you mention and his son Sambhaji Rao came out unscathed and alive out of Aurangzeb's Agra fort because of a Amber's rajput prince Ram singh.
It was Ram singh who convinced Shivaji to come for talks with Aurangzeb after his father Raja Jai singh had promised Shivaji that any harm to Shivaji and his accomplice would have to through the rajputs first.
We all know what kind of a man Aurangzeb was. When the talks began on Aurangzeb's birthday Shivaji was deliberately ignored, which infuriated him. Proceedings at that court are well recorded in books and I'm not going to elaborate everything. When Aurangzeb ordered for Shivaji to be killed, Ram singh stepped out and said that him and his people were oath bound to protect the maratha king at any cost. Aurangzeb then ordered Shivaji be house arrested till the talks were back to track - this happened only after prince Ram Singh signed a bond with Aurangzeb, taking full responsibility of the Maratha king.
For the next few months Shivaji lived in Ram Singh's camp, guarded by Rajput warriors, but also regularly watched by Mughal soldiers. When further negotiations proved futile Shivaji and Ram singh realized what Aurangzeb's next move would be.
Shivaji decided on escape. He feigned illness and began sending out baskets of sweets as charity. Over time, the mughal soldiers went lax in checking those baskets. On August 17, 1666 Shivaji and his son hid themselves in such baskets and escaped from Agra.
Since Shivaji had escaped from the midst of Ram Singh's camp, Aurangzeb's suspicion naturally fell on Ram Singh for the feat. When tortured, some maratha brahmins confessed under torture that Ram Singh had helped Shivaji's escape.

Coming to Marathas, they clashed with Mughals because both saw each other as a threat to their explansion and establishment and moreover they were bigger empires who had the capacity as well as stakes/ambitions for prolonged wars.

It is easy to talk about fight when enemy lives a house farther, when you have a buffer zone (in rajputs) when clash is on ambition not survival (as it was for rajputs), but ask the rajputs who had them all coming right into the face .. right in front of them.
All the land invasions of ancient India had the same route Khyber Pakhtunwa pass which landed the invaders and Rajputs in front of each other. Rajputs chewed these invasions for many many centuries. Had it been someone else, their signs would've gone missing from the pages of history pretty soon.

The party started to spoil even before Mughals came. Rajput power which was better organized in 700-1300 AD under fewer stronger rulers like Bappa Rawal, disintegrated into smaller weaker states later. Enduring continous bombardment of foreign invasions for centuries, figures amongst the reasons.
Rajputs rulers then were successful in thwarting off the attacks of Arabs/Turks for initial centuries. Major examples:
-- Bin Qasim who was defeated and driven off till Sindh
-- Persians routed out of Afghanistan with liberation of Kandhar.
-- Battles fought by Bhattis and PrithviRaj Chauhan in 12th century.
-- Battles fought by Jaitra Singh in 13th century. Defeat of Jalaluddin Khilji at Ranthambore in 1291 AD.
-- Never to forget the siege of Chittor where helpless and boxed in from all sides at a fort, rajputs fought Alauddin Khilji's massive army for 7 months, defended the fort to the last man and as an end resort the rajput women immolated themselves in fire to avoid captivity to foreigners (known as Jauhar). I need not mention further of how closely Rajputs guarded the Hindu bastion and do it even today.
-- Rajputs kept fighting invasions from Afghanistan even till 16th century AD (the likes of Maharana Sangram Singh and the devotee MiraBai's father Ratan Singh).
Rana Sanga fought with Muslims invasions in all directions - Delhi, Malwa and Gujrat; imprisoned Sultan Mahmud.

Do you know that countries like Syria, Jordan etc were taken by the Aravs within days, Egypt took 20 days to be conquered, Iraq 3 months, Iran 3 years and India 400 yrs, because of Rajputs.
You talk of when the intruders came in .. you forget of how many times and for how many centuries rajputs fought with these intruders all alone. There were no Marathas or Sikhs to fight alongside them saying that Oh our country India is under attack lets fight shoulder to shoulder with rajputs and thwart off the invaders .. did it happen, tell me.
What happened instead was that the likes of PrithviRaj Chauhan single handedly defeated people like Ghauri many times over and over before being slayed ultimately.
But I don't blame marathas or anyone else for that. Because I put the context in correct perspective that people of those time had their own reasons to do whatever they did and were too occupied with their own problems. Yet no excuse from the fact that while both held the Hindu flagship - Marathas and Rajputs were prime examples of Indian infighting.

Sayyads, Tughlaqs, Lodis, Afghans and Mughals .. so many came and smothered off aaj kisi ka namo nisha nahi bacha.. par ye kaum to yu hee ladti rahi, girti rahi aur fir se uth ti rahi .. aaj bhi lad rahi hai aur agey bhi ladti rahegi.

Hope you would not jump to conclusions like this ever again. We cannot afford anymore infighting in this country. Lets not revive the genetic flaws of the Indian fiber.

Regards,
Virendra
 
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Blackwater

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When people say such words they insult warriors like maharana Pratap, hameer Dev chauhan. Thakur Khangaar Singh Kacchawaha, Somedev Chauhan, many many more.The only rajputs who supported Mughals were the Shekawats and for sometime the rathores, But the Rathores fought against them many a times as well, When Shivaji was captured by the Mughals the Shekawat king Maan singh helped him escape, Shekawats were great diplomats, they maintained the balance of power though they compromised on honour but still protected their people from brutalities..More than the Rajputs who supported the Mughals there have been many many many more Rajputs who sacrificed everything fighting against them ...Their women burned themselves alive in jauhar to protect their honour...Only Rajput women have been known to do such act of exemplary bravery..rani Padmini the most famous one..Rajputs didnt support the Marathas caz even the marathas demanded wat the mughals demanded and that is Rajput should accept Maratha superiority.....which Rajputs didnt.





could you explain the map
 

Rage

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@ warriorextreme, I'm Maharashtrian. But you just had to go and start a comparison, didn't you?

The first man, to have never lost a battle in his life, was Charlemagne of the Franks and Emperor of the Holy Roman Kingdom.

This is not about the Marathas. So, keep them out of it!
 

warriorextreme

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@ warriorextreme, I'm Maharashtrian. But you just had to go and start a comparison, didn't you?

The first man, to have never lost a battle in his life, was Charlemagne of the Franks and Emperor of the Holy Roman Kingdom.

This is not about the Marathas. So, keep them out of it!
i dont understand why so much heated discussion about it..i just said i dont have respect for them...i no where said bad things about them..
all those who helped mughals in any way(even if they are from maharashtra) are out of my equation...
and yeah this is not about marathas so i wont discuss about that here..
 

Ray

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To add to the confusion, I am glad none said that the greatest chap is Digvijay Singh! ;)

First of all, if one wants to project the greatness of one's clan, it is wiser not to put a rider of a comparison.

What is the relevance to Romans?

Just because there is no Romans here?

Every race/ community has some great people and some downright scoundrels and traitors. May I say more? History bears them out! Even recent history!

So, just keep the thread clean.
 
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Virendra

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Apologies Ray sir, but the thread drifted away from its topic right on the 1st page.
Still I wouldn't have posted had people not started throwing respect/disrespect for various Indian martial communities. If we do like this we can find thousands of reasons to have disrespect for (and blame) each and every community of ancient India - so much happened, you only ought to have the reasons and point fingers. But then none was perfect clean is all that I said.

Actually the whole Rajput-Roman comparison itself is flawed since both powers reigned in different timelines. However, since this was supposed to be a technical discussion so my 2 bits are that -
a) In war tactics and wholesome view, Romans would better the Rajputs.
b) In man to man close combat Rajputs would better the Romans.

Their weapons and war methods tell us why it is so.

Regards,
Virendra
 

Ray

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Virendra,

Very gentlemanly of you.

This A vs B types of threads to including comparison of forces or eqpt, always leads to the same end!
 

Rage

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i dont understand why so much heated discussion about it..i just said i dont have respect for them...i no where said bad things about them..
all those who helped mughals in any way(even if they are from maharashtra) are out of my equation...
and yeah this is not about marathas so i wont discuss about that here..

How does you not having respect for them have anything to do with their fighting skills, or their tactics, or their discipline?

What does it have to do with their weapons? or their training?

The Marathas had an empire of their own and did not aid the Mughals, true. But they were not in the same position as the Rajputs. Nor did they seek anything other than the complete and utter domination of the Rajputs, just as the Mughals did.

But this has nothing to do with whether their tactics, battle equipment and management were superior.


To add to the confusion, I am glad none said that the greatest chap is Digvijay Singh! ;)

First of all, if one wants to project the greatness of one's clan, it is wiser not to put a rider of a comparison.

What is the relevance to Romans?

Just because there is no Romans here?

Every race/ community has some great people and some downright scoundrels and traitors. May I say more? History bears them out! Even recent history!

So, just keep the thread clean.

Ray,

This thread was meant to be a quasi-scientific, experimentative comparison between the battler forms, tactics and weaponry of the Rajputs vs the Romans. Empirically, it has no merit. But the series uses a battle simulator to see whether physically, tactically and battle-philosophically which, of two disparate groups, who had never met would win, if they had met hypothetically. And, it takes that information to produce the result of a battle, of which opinions I wanted on.

Besides, it was the original title of the thread of the program I got it from, in the first place.
 

Ray

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Thanks.

The experiment has established what it had to prove.

And now, the experiment stops, lest the test tube bursts and the acid scalds all.

I am not being arbitrary about closing this, but I am sure most will agree that it has run its course and is getting a wee bit unpleasant.

We are all friends, aren't we?

So. let us continue to be friends and let historical hypotheses not cast us asunder!
 

Yusuf

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The thread is a perfect example of a hijacked one. Most of the posters have not understood the premise of what the thread starter was trying to do.

I think a series runs on NGC or Discovery where they compare different warriors. purely from the point of view of how they fought, tactics, weapons etc...

Too much of unnecessary emotions being included when none is required.
 

Ray

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I am opening this on popular request.

But take care!

No Jasmine Revolution here, please!
 
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