The Atheism/Agnosticism Thread

[TrueSpirit]

@Known_Unknown Just an FYI....you must be aware of Jain monks who have faster for 17 years & more without any food, with little water, I guess. The medical reports have confirmed the veracity of these claims & this is no hogwash, but common knowledge. All his vital body organs were found to be in ok state.There are specific techniques in prolonged fasting, which comes from experience (of prior monks), practice & determination.

So, a lot is possible (including, apparently impossible feats) through sheer willpower & faith. From my understanding, individuals who believe in nothing, achieve nothing. Another aspect, such beliefs on a large-scale could lead to loss of "sense of collective morality" or what we call "ethics". Counter-productive for civilization. Nihilism is a non-starter.

It has been concluded by various researches that people with faith live longer, happier & healthier. That's why there is a term called "religious-zeal" though repercussions of such zeal could be negative, as well (another matter).

Finally, no use sparring with believers. Personal circumstances (pleasant & not-so-pleasant experiences) in life shape individual opinions. Let everyone derive succor & contentment from whatever they choose to put their faith in: be it God or nothing-ness.

I am not a big believer, by the way. But, I don't reject any claims since, my experience/beliefs are the not the gospel or the final word.

We are just Koop-Mandook (if you know Hindi). There is a lot to be explored.

So, I do not discount the impossible. I look forward in anticipation & excitement.

 

[pkroyal]

One requires special apparatus to see phenomenon, like atoms/electrons(with the help of an electron microscope) normal senses ( touch, hearing,taste ,smell & sight) are not enough to see " suksm" ( without form) phenomenon. The particles themselves are in " tandav"( perpetual dance ) not seen with the naked eye. God does exist, more on this later .......( to be continued)

 

[happy]

Good job on having me take your bait. We were not discussing this but karma/reincarnation and interpretations and cessation of "consciousness".

It is the SOP of atheists to divert the topic when they do not know answers. When I kept debunking @Known_Unknown, he brought virus into the picture and derailed the topic. Till now he has failed to answer any of my other questions. Same with @civfanatic and @Dovah

 

[TrueSpirit]

In my opinion, this thread is pointless.

 

[happy]

@Known_Unknown for your intellectual mind a small sample of the God Particle by Dr. Craig.

The Higgs boson is the final particle postulated by the standard model of particle physics to be empirically confirmed. The standard model postulates various fundamental sub-atomic particles like quarks, electrons, photons, and the like in order to explain three of the fundamental forces of nature, namely, the strong, weak, and electromagnetic forces. The fourth fundamental force, gravity, is left out of the standard model.

One of the theoretical particles in the standard model is a type of particle, called a boson, which is responsible for a field permeating space which determines the mass of various other particles moving through space. For example, the photon has zero mass, whereas the electron has a small mass. This particle has been called the Higgs boson after Peter Higgs, the physicist who predicted its existence, and the corresponding field the Higgs field.

Because the Higgs boson decays so quickly and requires such extraordinarily high energies to create, it took considerable time, effort, and money to finally provide empirical confirmation that the standard model was correct in postulating such a particle. It is one of those wonderful instances in science where theoretical predictions were shown to be correct by experimental scientists.

I think you can see that this confirmation just has no theological significance, except in an indirect sense (e.g., testimony to the mathematical order and beauty of nature). In particular, it changes nothing for cosmological arguments for the universe's beginning or teleological arguments concerning the fine-tuning of the universe, since those arguments have proceeded on the assumption that the standard model of particle physics is correct (--at least so far as it goes! We still need a Grand Unified Theory in order to explain the physics of the universe prior to the emergence of the strong, weak, and electromagnetic forces as distinct forces. And prior to that we need a quantum theory of gravity or so-called Theory of Everything to incorporate the gravitational force. We have neither of these yet.) All that was wanting was empirical confirmation of the standard model with respect to the Higgs boson. Now we apparently have that; so much the better! Nothing has changed.

The contrary impression, evidently shared by your friends, is undoubtedly due to the appellation "the God particle" given to the Higgs boson by Leon Lederman in his 1993 book The God Particle. Some people seem to think that the Higgs boson takes the place of God. In fact, however, Lederman called it "the God particle" for two reasons: (1) like God, the particle underlies every physical object that exists; and (2) like God, the particle is very difficult to detect!

I really like Lederman's nomenclature because it highlights two aspects of God's existence, first, His conservation of the world in being, and, second, the hiddenness of God. With respect to the first, according to Christian theology, God not only created the universe in being, but He upholds it in being moment by moment. Were He to withdraw His sustaining power, the universe would be instantly annihilated. Similarly, on a physical level, without the Higgs boson nothing would have any mass and the universe would be devoid of physical objects. (By the way, no fear that the Higgs boson supplants God in conserving the universe because the Higgs boson is itself a contingent particle, which decays almost as soon as it is formed, so that it does not exist necessarily, and the Higgs boson and the Higgs field themselves are the products of the Big Bang and so non-necessary and non-eternal.)

With respect to the second point, it is part and parcel of the problem of evil that God is hidden. Not only is He undetectable by the five senses, not being a physical object, but He sometimes seems frustratingly absent when we need Him most. But the lesson of the Higgs boson is that physical undetectability is no proof of non-existence, and something can be objectively there and real, even pervasively present, even when we have no direct evidence of its presence. Just because you may not see God's hand at work when you are suffering, that doesn't imply that God is not present and active in your situation unbeknownst to you. So the Higgs boson is a nice reminder of these features of God's existence.

It's a shame that atheists who have little understanding of science or theology should party over something that has not happened and miss what is truly celebratory in this triumph of human reason and discovery.

by William Lane Craig


Read more: Higgs Boson Discovered! | Reasonable Faith

 

[happy]

double post

 

[pkroyal]

There is a Anthropomorphic( of a God) formula which works in more than 100 unvarying aspects of the universe. For eg :-

1. Electro Magnetic Force ( EMF) is 1039 times stronger than gravitational force ( G). Had it been a little weaker say 1033 times ( as strong) the stars would have been a billion times less massive and would have burnt out a million times faster.

2. If the difference between mass of the proton and the neutron were not exactly what it is, ie roughly twice the mass of the electron, all neutrons would have become protons and the matter as we know would have ceased to exist.

3. Water , almost alone among compounds is lighter in its solid state,than in its liquid state, ice floats had it not been so, the oceans would have frozen from the bottom up. and in time the whole earth would have been covered entirely by ice.

There is a grand design and precision in all of God's creation.

 

[happy]

The poll is going neck to neck between atheists and those who believe God exists. Interesting to know the outcome.

 

[Free Karma]

Wow, this thread has really moved fast in the last few days.

In an ideal world everyone would be free of religious dogma. Whether someone wants to commit suicide or not is their own wish. As I mentioned, there is indeed no objective purpose or meaning to life, if there is, please explain it to me. Suicide is okay-but that does not mean I encourage mass suicides. Each person has to take that decision himself after considering the benefits and pitfalls of dying. For example in the case of a patient with terminal illness, suicide could be a very attractive option to the alternative of slowly losing control of his body, his senses and his dignity.

If you do accept that there is no meaning, then everyone who lives is, either doing something pointless, or personal things like family and friends give someone a reason, but is ultimately false/useless. Which is why you say suicide is fine. But all this does is make people who choose to live look like they believe in carrying out something that is pointless, or are content with smaller reasons that add to nothing. These smaller personal reasons could vary wildly, depending on the person, and if the common perception in a society is that life is ultimately worthless, most people are going to do whatever they want to and only anarchy would result,

Also if people believed that there was no reason or meaning to anything, then there would be no religion, no philosophy and also no science, which really is a method of explaining why things are the way they are, why would all of these try to explain something that doesnt really matter?

Science is itself incomplete but constantly evolving and cannot explain everything even at this point in time (maybe forever?).Newtonian physics scoffed at people predicting the wave nature of light, but when it itself failed to predict behaviour at microscopic levels, it opened up a whole new space for science. A lot of quantum mechanics(heisenberg schrodinger etc) are based of randomness and uncertainty, and are often based off analytic models, which do not explain things fully, but are accepted because they sort of just "work". Randomness and chaos are built into nearly everything, Even after years of study, there is no idea what exactly triggers a cell to become cancerous and why. Medicine will give you everything from genetics, to smoking, to pollution, dietary and sleep habits, to drugs and what not as carcinogenic. Other examples like sudden infant death syndrome, spontaneous human combustion, even simple things such as hypertension and so on. Even some simple things from everyday life like people being given clean chits of health, suffering heart attacks, while people who have according to medical terms had abusive lifestyles live for long and die a natural death.

So then if you try to hold this as infalliable, and close yourself from other claimed phenomenon because it doesnt fit in to the current line of thinking, or cannot be explained with the existing principles does not seem completely right. I remain open to everything like true spirit.

Edit: I found a pdf on this swami rama experiments http://www.swamij.com/pdf/swami-rama-beyond-biofeedback.pdf

 

[The Messiah]

There is only one way, exterminate the ignorant and the irrational.

 

[civfanatic]

The poll is going neck to neck between atheists and those who believe God exists. Interesting to know the outcome.

Actually, it shows atheists/agnostics winning over theists.

The people who chose the third option are agnostics.

 

[Yusuf]

Entering this thread for the first time. After yrs of believing what I was born into, I started to question it and when thought rationally, it all sounds funny and crazy.

I questioned what ppl do everyday. When good happens,thank God,when bad happens,its our sins. WTF. If God is merciful, why would he punish anyone just for not believing in him (or that's what they say) if he has been a good human being and led a good life as a human being?
Lots more as well.

Its a good psychological tool this religion.

Well I am just about holding on to "faith" and seeking answers

 

[happy]

Actually, it shows atheists/agnostics winning over theists.

The people who chose the third option are agnostics.

I believe this thread was started to express one's opinion but not to change the opinion of others

So, rather than winning, it should be termed as there are more atheists and agnostics on DFI than theists.

 

[Known_Unknown]

 

[SPIEZ]

For me it's simple.

Somebody should have created everything defying all forms of logic.

However, seeing what is happening around me makes me think that that SOMEBODY is not really paying any attention to us.

Hard to believe there is a 8 year old obese kid and an 8 year old rag-picker in the same street.

And believe this is not anythiong fancy from a movie (Anbe-Sivanesque)

 

[blank_quest]

I don't believe in GOD and am not an Atheist ! its a meaningless existence for me.

can not define the 'Self' without the material existence.

What is 'Life'? ;

What it is to be in 'Existence' ? ;

Can 'Life' be independent of 'Existence'? ;

Dead things 'exists' such as ROCKS that are without 'life'? ;

Does it means 'existence' can be independent of 'life' ? ;

Can God as well 'exist' without 'life' as ROCK exists ? ;

Can Consciousness to be defined independent of 'existence' ? ;

Is 'consciousness' a 'life' without 'existence' ?

Can God 'exist' and be 'non-conscious' ?

Can God 'exist' and without 'Life' ?


Its all absurd !!

 

[blank_quest]

I don't believe in GOD and am not an Atheist ! its a meaningless existence for me.

can not define the 'Self' without the material existence.

What is 'Life'? ;

What it is to be in 'Existence' ? ;

Can 'Life' be independent of 'Existence'? ;

Dead things 'exists' such as ROCKS that are without 'life' {?} ;

Does it means 'existence' can be independent of 'life' ? ;

Can God as well 'exist' without 'life' as ROCK exists ? ;

Can Consciousness {to} be defined independent of 'existence' ? ;

Is 'consciousness' a 'life' without 'existence' ?

Can God 'exist' and be 'non-conscious' ?

Can God 'exist' and without 'Life' ?


Its all absurd !!

Sorry for poorly crafted comprehension!

 

[SPIEZ]

Sorry for poorly crafted comprehension!

We could understand it. No worries.

And yes, this topic is way beyond my thinking level.

 

[blank_quest]

We could understand it. No worries.

And yes, this topic is way beyond my thinking level.

Don't worry, there is no need to worry about thinking level.

It all melts down to the level of the basic definitions.

What is life ? , What is existence ? ,,,, so on!

 

[Dovah]

And yes, this topic is way beyond my thinking level.

Stoopid is as stoopid does Forrest. lelelelelelelele XDDDD