The Atheism/Agnosticism Thread

[Known_Unknown]

On the contrary, virus needs a host to live, without which it dies, period. It shows you are ignorant of even science.

The rest very typical atheist arguments. As I said, you can only comprehend things that are rational.

Viruses DO NOT die without a host. They merely become "inactive". A virus outside of a host is like a rock, but even after thousands of years if a host manages to ingest it, the virus will start to multiply and mutate!

This is why "atheists" prefer not to argue with those of "faith"! Because faith can only co-exist with ignorance and having a discussion or debate with an ignorant person is not very interesting!

 

[Bodhi]

It's a bunch of meaningless gobbledygook. It is impossible for a human being to be "without breathing or heartbeat" for a few "hours". If the DL knows someone who can do this, he should ask them to get tested by a doctor (preferably a psychiatrist )

Why the intellectual dishonesty? HH Dalai Lama says minutes not hours. I respect your stance on atheism but such cheap shots are not very nice.

 

[happy]

Viruses DO NOT die without a host. They merely become "inactive". A virus outside of a host is like a rock, but even after thousands of years if a host manages to ingest it, the virus will start to multiply and mutate!

This is why "atheists" prefer not to argue with those of "faith"! Because faith can only co-exist with ignorance and having a discussion or debate with an ignorant person is not very interesting!

You were saying something about quantum theory ?? What happened to that? Choose to ignore it too, eh?

 

[Known_Unknown]

Why the intellectual dishonesty? HH Dalai Lama says minutes not hours. I respect your stance on atheism but such cheap shots are not very nice.

Whether it is hours or minutes is irrelevant. It is impossible to stop one's heartbeat and then re-start it purely by will. When the heart stops, consciousness is lost within 20 seconds and within 3 minutes, the brain dies from lack of oxygen. Cardiac arrest (stopping of heartbeat) is considered to be a medical emergency and without CPR, the person usually dies. Please read the following and prepare to be enlightened like the Buddha!

Clinical death - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ischemia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reperfusion_injury

 

[happy]

All things undergo wear and tear, whether its living things or machines.

What constitutes a living thing and what is a machine?? Pray explain with your point of view.

 

[Known_Unknown]

What constitutes a living thing and what is a machine?? Pray explain with your point of view.

Seriously man, if you have these kind of questions, you should get in touch with your primary school science teacher. I'm done wasting my time with you.

 

[Bodhi]

Whether it is hours or minutes is irrelevant. It is impossible to stop one's heartbeat and then re-start it purely by will. When the heart stops, consciousness is lost within 20 seconds and within 3 minutes, the brain dies from lack of oxygen. Cardiac arrest (stopping of heartbeat) is considered to be a medical emergency and without CPR, the person usually dies. Please read the following and prepare to be enlightened like the Buddha!

Clinical death - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ischemia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Reperfusion injury - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Instead of being a smartass, note that HH Dalai Lama said "minutes, I think" and then look up Swami Ramananda and the scientific papers he
generated with his breathing techniques. Then look for yourself at some of the research that scientists from UCLA and Harvard are doing on Tibetan monks and how astonished they are at the results. Then ask yourself this question: Is it possible to sit perfectly still in the perfect padmasana while being burned alive for more than 30 seconds? Well a Buddhist monk has done that too. Again if you want to debate, stop with the cheap shots and loaded phrases, you have no right to insult my Dhamma.

 

[Known_Unknown]

Instead of being a smartass, note that HH Dalai Lama said "minutes, I think" and then look up Swami Ramananda and the scientific papers he
generated with his breathing techniques. Then look for yourself at some of the research that scientists from UCLA and Harvard are doing on Tibetan monks and how astonished they are at the results. Then ask yourself this question: Is it possible to sit perfectly still in the perfect padmasana while being burned alive for more than 30 seconds? Well a Buddhist monk has done that too. Again if you want to debate, stop with the cheap shots and loaded phrases, you have no right to insult my Dhamma.

I have provided you concrete links which have references to peer reviewed research at the bottom of the article. I expect you to provide a similar standard of evidence-specific links, and evidence that substantiates your claims. Not vague references to studies by Harvard scientists.

If you have even a single concrete example of anyone who has managed to stop their heartbeat for even 20 seconds, please provide it. If not, accept that what the DL "thinks" is vague conjecture and neither here nor there when we're talking about solid facts and verifiable proof.

 

[happy]

Seriously man, if you have these kind of questions, you should get in touch with your primary school science teacher. I'm done wasting my time with you.

Seriously, your knowledge is only upto the primary school level....

I rest my case.

 

[happy]

 

[Bodhi]

I have provided you concrete links which have references to peer reviewed research at the bottom of the article. I expect you to provide a similar standard of evidence-specific links, and evidence that substantiates your claims. Not vague references to studies by Harvard scientists.

If you have even a single concrete example of anyone who has managed to stop their heartbeat for even 20 seconds, please provide it. If not, accept that what the DL "thinks" is vague conjecture and neither here nor there when we're talking about solid facts and verifiable proof.

You want links? Try this:

Like the Tibetan monks, Indian Yogis seem to have an unusual talent for manipulating their physiological processes while in deep meditation. After hearing stories of yogis spending 28 days underground and surviving, in 1936, a French cardiologist named Therese Brosse traveled to India to see if the yogis truly did have such talents. In her experiments, the yogis reportedly slowed their heart down so slow that it was only detectable via an EKG machine.In the 1950s Brosse's study was expanded by another group of researchers who traveled through India with an eight-channel electro-encephalograph and various other instruments, which they used to monitor the yogis' brain activity, respirations, skin temperature, blood-volume changes, and skin conductance. Two of their test subjects were placed in air-tight sealed boxes, on two separate occasions, and were monitored for 8 to 10 hours. During that time the Yogis showed biological characteristics similar to sleep and were able to slow down their heart rate and respiration to low enough levels that oxygen and carbon dioxide quantities inside the box remained virtually in the same proportions as found in air at sea level. Thus, it was shown that by slowing down their bodily processes and not panicking (as most would do) the Yogis could survive a live-burial for far longer than the average person, possibly even weeks longer.

So has it occurred to you oh genius that HH Dalai Lama must be referring to lamas stopping their hearts for many minutes (as it would seem), but in reality their heart rates are faintly detected in a EKG (therefore heart not clinically stopped). BTW Swami Rama CLINICALLY stopped his heart for over 16.5 seconds, something that was thought impossible. This was in the 1960's, so I guess you got the total of 20 seconds as the bar after the 1960's when Swami Rama proved your scientists wrong (must have been 10 seconds or something before).

Advanced bhikkus/yogis/lamas have always shocked scientists and baffled them, leading them to modify their views.
How about this example:

In one of the most notable exhibits of their skills, a group of Tibetan monks allowed physicians to monitor the monk's bodily changes as they engaged in a meditative yoga technique known as g Tum-mo. During the process the monks were cloaked in wet, cold sheets (49 f / 9.4 c) and placed in a 40 f (4.5 c) room. In such conditions, the average person would likely experience uncontrollable shivering and would shortly suffer hypothermia. However, through deep concentration, the monks were able to generate body heat, and within minutes the researchers noticed steam rising from the sheets that were covering the monks. Within an hour, the sheets were completely dry.Although, the display was fascinating to the doctors, for the monks it was an ordinary occurrence. In fact, new monks use g Tum-mo as a way of proving their meditative strength and hold contests to see who can dry the most sheets in one night.The Buddhists say the heat they generate is a byproduct of the meditation, since it takes energy to reach a state of alternate reality – a place unaffected by our everyday world.
In one of the most notable exhibits of their skills, a group of Tibetan monks allowed physicians to monitor the monk's bodily changes as they engaged in a meditative yoga technique known as g Tum-mo. During the process the monks were cloaked in wet, cold sheets (49 f / 9.4 c) and placed in a 40 f (4.5 c) room. In such conditions, the average person would likely experience uncontrollable shivering and would shortly suffer hypothermia. However, through deep concentration, the monks were able to generate body heat, and within minutes the researchers noticed steam rising from the sheets that were covering the monks. Within an hour, the sheets were completely dry.Although, the display was fascinating to the doctors, for the monks it was an ordinary occurrence. In fact, new monks use g Tum-mo as a way of proving their meditative strength and hold contests to see who can dry the most sheets in one night.The Buddhists say the heat they generate is a byproduct of the meditation, since it takes energy to reach a state of alternate reality – a place unaffected by our everyday world.

link: 10 Amazing Examples of Mind Over Matter - Listverse

 

[Known_Unknown]

You want links? Try this:



So has it occurred to you oh genius that HH Dalai Lama must be referring to lamas stopping their hearts for many minutes (as it would seem), but in reality their heart rates are faintly detected in a EKG (therefore heart not clinically stopped). BTW Swami Rama CLINICALLY stopped his heart for over 16.5 seconds, something that was thought impossible. This was in the 1960's, so I guess you got the total of 20 seconds as the bar after the 1960's when Swami Rama proved your scientists wrong (must have been 10 seconds or something before).

Advanced bhikkus/yogis/lamas have always shocked scientists and baffled them, leading them to modify their views.
How about this example:



link: 10 Amazing Examples of Mind Over Matter - Listverse

Thank you for the links. I am aware of all these amazing feats of Indian and Buddhist yogis/monks. Not a single one of them though, actually managed to STOP their heart. This is what I have been saying all along. A person of science will require evidence that is absolutely certain, whether one way or another. Science is not biased. If there indeed were examples of people who managed to STOP their hearts completely, then it would be a remarkable new avenue for research and any scientist would be delighted to get such a result. Btw your story of Swami Rama stopping his heart completely for 16.5 seconds-again, any credible link? Did he re-start his heart after 16.5 seconds?

As for the info about yogis covered with wet cold sheets who managed to steam dry them by raising their body temperature, I think that is absolutely horseshit. The link you provided is from some random site, and it does not have references to the original study or its peer reviews. Just think about it-water turns to steam at 100 degrees Celsius, so in order to see steam rising from the sheets covering the Yogi, they must have needed to raise their skin temperature to at least 100 degrees celsius, which means their core body temperature must have been even higher. This is impossible, as you can see from the below:

Human body temperature - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hyperthermia occurs when the body produces or absorbs more heat than it can dissipate. It is usually caused by prolonged exposure to high temperatures. The heat-regulating mechanisms of the body eventually become overwhelmed and unable to deal effectively with the heat, causing the body temperature to climb uncontrollably. Hyperthermia at or above about 40 °C (104 °F) is a life-threatening medical emergency that requires immediate treatment. Common symptoms include headache, confusion, and fatigue. If sweating has resulted in dehydration, then the affected person may have dry, red skin.

 

[Bodhi]

Thank you for the links. I am aware of all these amazing feats of Indian and Buddhist yogis/monks. Not a single one of them though, actually managed to STOP their heart. This is what I have been saying all along. A person of science will require evidence that is absolutely certain, whether one way or another. Science is not biased. If there indeed were examples of people who managed to STOP their hearts completely, then it would be a remarkable new avenue for research and any scientist would be delighted to get such a result. Btw your story of Swami Rama stopping his heart completely for 16.5 seconds-again, any credible link? Did he re-start his heart after 16.5 seconds?

As for the info about yogis covered with wet cold sheets who managed to steam dry them by raising their body temperature, I think that is absolutely horseshit. The link you provided is from some random site, and it does not have references to the original study or its peer reviews. Just think about it-water turns to steam at 100 degrees Celsius, so in order to see steam rising from the sheets covering the Yogi, they must have needed to raise their skin temperature to at least 100 degrees celsius, which means their core body temperature must have been even higher. This is impossible, as you can see from the below:

Human body temperature - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Please search about Swami Rama, I don't want to do all your homework.

Here is a link about the yogis in Tibet from the New York Times, dated 1982, the authors quoted include:

With the help of three Tibetan Buddhist monks, however, a team of scientists has demonstrated that temperature can be raised. One of the monks, wired with temperature sensors, raised the temperature of his fingers and toes by as much as 8.3 degre e s centigrade - almost 15 degrees Fahrenheit - according to a recent report in the scientific journal Nature.

The authors were Herbert Benson, John W. Lehmann, Mark D. Epstein of Harvard, Ralph F. Goldman of the Army Research Institute of Environmental Medicine, M.@S. Malhotra of India's National Institute of Sports and Jeffrey Hopkins of the University of Virginia.

SCIENCE WATCH - Heat From Meditation - NYTimes.com

And I beg of you, can you discuss in a civil manner instead of name calling, eg, "horseshit", "hogwash"

 

[Bodhi]

Under these scientific conditions, Swami Rama demonstrated the ability to stop his heart from pumping blood for 16.2 seconds and to produce an 11-degree difference in temperature between different parts of the palm of his hand. In one demonstration, using only mental power, he caused a fourteen - inch aluminum knitting needle mounted on a shaft five feet away, to spin.

Below, the foam and plexiglass mask Swami Rama wore over his face to prevent any air current from his mouth or nose from affecting the movement of the PK needles in the telekinetic experiment

Swami Rama and Other Paranormal Info - Neil Slade and The Amazing Brain Music Adventure

Note that he is also referenced as "Ramananda" in some academic works.

 

[Known_Unknown]

Please search about Swami Rama, I don't want to do all your homework.

Here is a link about the yogis in Tibet from the New York Times, dated 1982, the authors quoted include:




SCIENCE WATCH - Heat From Meditation - NYTimes.com

And I beg of you, can you discuss in a civil manner instead of name calling, eg, "horseshit", "hogwash"

Your style of debating is throwing random claims at me and then running away when challenged. This is what happens when pseudo-rational claims meet hard science.

So far:

1. You posted Dalai Lama's claims of knowing monks who stopped their hearts for "minutes".: Proven false
2. You claimed Swami Rama stopped his heart for 16.5 seconds: No proof provided by you to back up your claim
3. You claimed monks managed to steam-dry sheets that were covering them: Finally a credible link!!

OK, according to the NY Times link, the monks did manage to raise the temperature of their extremities by 8-9 degrees celsius. Now if they were covered by cold sheets and sitting in a cold room, the temperature difference will cause condensation at the surface of the sheets, and this could look like "steaming". This is akin to breathing in cold weather.

However I forgot the point you were trying to make with this example.

 

[cloud]

God is their, but may be not in the form of we think.. Because I know God likes me and favors me, inspite of me doing all the things to pull myself at bottom, like parents, he or she loves me still..

 

[Bodhi]

Your style of debating is throwing random claims at me and then running away when challenged. This is what happens when pseudo-rational claims meet hard science.

So far:

1. You posted Dalai Lama's claims of knowing monks who stopped their hearts for "minutes".: Proven false
2. You claimed Swami Rama stopped his heart for 16.5 seconds: No proof provided by you to back up your claim
3. You claimed monks managed to steam-dry sheets that were covering them: Finally a credible link!!

OK, according to the NY Times link, the monks did manage to raise the temperature of their extremities by 8-9 degrees celsius. Now if they were covered by cold sheets and sitting in a cold room, the temperature difference will cause condensation at the surface of the sheets, and this could look like "steaming". This is akin to breathing in cold weather.

However I forgot the point you were trying to make with this example.

Okay lets start from the beginning. First you deliberately lied when you claimed that HH Dalai Lama said hours not minutes. Later I caught you in your lie and you posted your links. Later I showed you from a quote that yogis could make it superficially appear they stop their hearts (interpreted as such by most non scientific people like HHDL) for minutes if it was not for an EKG.

Then you tried to debunk the claim about Tibetan monks lowering their body temperature in a freezing room by 6-8 degrees by claiming that condensation is doing that. Dude what more rubbish are you gonna spout out? WTF would scientists concern themselves over a case of condensation. What we have here is a case where the monks raise their body temperature where as in a similar setting, most people would get hypothermia.

And all this is besides a point. Good job on having me take your bait. We were not discussing this but karma/reincarnation and interpretations and cessation of "consciousness".

 

[Known_Unknown]

Swami Rama and Other Paranormal Info - Neil Slade and The Amazing Brain Music Adventure

Note that he is also referenced as "Ramananda" in some academic works.

I did some more research into this because the feats performed by the Swami are impossible and defy any scientific explanation, especially the one where he moved a 14 inch needle located 5 feet away to spin. Here's the entire record of the experiments:

Swami Rama Beyond Biofeedback

I haven't read it all, but the experiments seem very unscientific, lacking any controls whatsoever. The main researcher Elmer Green himself seems to be a fringe scientist and mainly known for the publication of the above book. In addition, I wonder if the experiments were published in any peer-reviewed journals and what the reaction of the scientific community was like.

 

[Known_Unknown]

.........And all this is besides a point. Good job on having me take your bait. We were not discussing this but karma/reincarnation and interpretations and cessation of "consciousness".

Ok well, #1 doesn't exist. #2 happens when the brain dies. Simple.

 

[Bodhi]

I did some more research into this because the feats performed by the Swami are impossible and defy any scientific explanation, especially the one where he moved a 14 inch needle located 5 feet away to spin. Here's the entire record of the experiments:

Swami Rama Beyond Biofeedback

I haven't read it all, but the experiments seem very unscientific, lacking any controls whatsoever. The main researcher Elmer Green himself seems to be a fringe scientist and mainly known for the publication of the above book. In addition, I wonder if the experiments were published in any peer-reviewed journals and what the reaction of the scientific community was like.

I don't have access to online journals so if you can research, I too will be interested. Swami Rama fell into disrepute (and as did his research) when he was accused (rather unfairly IMHO) of sexual harassment in the US.