The Atheism/Agnosticism Thread

[Agnostic Muslim]

Re: Salam, Schalom, Namaste!

Nagraj ... horse, water and all that.

Goes both ways ...

 

[Nagraj]

Re: Salam, Schalom, Namaste!

...........

 

[Razor]

God of the Paradox

 

[Razor]

How God Favors Evil

 

[Razor]

Re-posting from Nagraj.
Too good. Had to re-post.

 

[Razor]

God Works in mysterious ways.

 

[LurkerBaba]

For the modernizers ~(read Atheists),nothing is sacred. Hindu civilization considers everything to be sacred. Modernizers in the Indian context are the "Nehruvian children" misguided and maladjusted to Indian civilizational roots. They wanted the State to replace society as a regulator, arbitrator and settler of all disputes. They want to create an abstract society which is rootless and without memory.

-R. Vaidyanathan

This is truly funny.

Many self proclaimed "Hindu-nationalists" today have almost zero Civilizational memory. Although they're at the forefront of showcasing how bad Islam is, when it comes to 'defending' Hinduism all we get are references to Aircraft in Vedas, Nuclear War in Mahabharata, Tejo Mahalaya (apart from the usual marxist/sickular/congi circlejerk)

On this very forum, they'll be the first to say "RIP" in threads, without realizing that "resting in peace" isn't a Hindu belief ! Look at our mainstream culture, we have people fawning over movies like "Zindegi Milegi Na Doobra" (I hope "Hindus" here understand the irony).

"Hindus" today don't realize how much their beliefs resemble Christianity and Islam !


Note: I'm not referring to you.

 

[Razor]

Re: How Muslims around the world celebrate the month of Ramadan

Definitely there was something before the moment of creation, an empty space or space-dust which caused the big bang or any such thing. It just can not take birth out of nothing, if we have child then there are sperms and chromosomes, in the same manner Universe also needs a thing like sperm or something like it. I can not believe that Universe created itself until it is God.

If you would go a step beyond and care to ask, where did God come from. Where did the sperms and ova that made God come from ? etc. We could go on all day.
Your answer would be
1. God was neither born nor will ever die,
2. God creates himself, and destroys himself after a certain number of eons and the cycle continues or
3. God created himself.

Each of these hypotheses are as good as the hypothesis that the Universe created itself, but at least the latter removes a redundant step in the process i.e. existence of God.

Endless space requires an endless space to exist, all the galaxies are resting in the endless space, no scientist has succeeded in measuring the length or depth of the space. Where did this space come from ?

Do read up on the Big Bang theory.

We can not call the space empty because when we send rockets there, they run through an engine which pushes itself ahead by thrusting the gaseous flames in the opposite direction and if the space is empty how can the spacecraft go ahead? it needs some matter to push and go to the opposite direction of it, as per Newton's 3rd law, it requires something which can exert equal force against the thrust of rocket engine. So the space is not empty it is full of dark invisible matter.

First, space is not empty, coz then we'd not exist. Space is relatively empty would be a more correct statement.
Second, Rockets obey conservation of momentum (remember that momentum is a vector), and so to conserve momentum when gases are thrust from the exhaust, the rocket needs to move forward in such a way that the product of mass and velocity cancels the same for the exhaust gases.

 

[ani82v]

Sanal Edamaruku under attack for exposing Catholic "miracle"


Threat live on TV

When they saw their hopes dashed to force Sanal to his knees and apologize, they publicly threatened to file a blasphemy case against him. Sanal pointed out that this would give him an excellent opportunity to support all his statements with evidence in a court of law, with the bishop of Mumbai in the witness box. Foaming with rage, the church people vowed to harass him by filing an array of cases against him in all Mumbai police stations. They did.

Whats this blasphemy case in India?????

 

[panduranghari]

This is truly funny.

Many self proclaimed "Hindu-nationalists" today have almost zero Civilizational memory. Although they're at the forefront of showcasing how bad Islam is, when it comes to 'defending' Hinduism all we get are references to Aircraft in Vedas, Nuclear War in Mahabharata, Tejo Mahalaya (apart from the usual marxist/sickular/congi circlejerk)

On this very forum, they'll be the first to say "RIP" in threads, without realizing that "resting in peace" isn't a Hindu belief ! Look at our mainstream culture, we have people fawning over movies like "Zindegi Milegi Na Doobra" (I hope "Hindus" here understand the irony).

"Hindus" today don't realize how much their beliefs resemble Christianity and Islam !


Note: I'm not referring to you.

I agree. I am learning more and with someone like Rajiv Malhotra as a teacher, we all can learn a lot. His yahoo group is excellent but so are his books. We could learn a lot from him.

 

[panduranghari]

Re: How Muslims around the world celebrate the month of Ramadan

Do read up on the Big Bang theory.

Razor
BBT is a theory and there is a constant need in the west to get the theory validated. Even today there are many glaring holes within the theory.

The closest way you can perceive what god is different for everyone.

However this bit

One Universal Creator. Truth is his name. The Creator of all things. One without fear. Without hatred. Beyond the chains of time, birth and death. Self-existent. Enlightener. Gracious. - Japji
......
God is neither appointed nor created. He's self-existent, the Immaculate one. (Jap)
.....
Though a better form of life be attained through good actions, salvation comes only through God's Grace and Benediction. (Jap. 5)
.....
Everywhere is God's Seat, everywhere His Stall. And, He puts in it what He wills once for all. (Jap. 31)
.....
All Truth, all Penances, all Goodness, all Miracles, all Merits of the adepts, the Intuitive powers, no one has found without Thee, O God! (Asa M. 1)
.....
God alone Gives and His Givings know no bounds. (Asa M. 1)
....
Thou Thyself separated (the egoists) from Thee, and it is Thou that united them again to Thyself. (Asa M. 4)
....
How shall we become fearless if we do not fear the Lord and merge in His Word. (Sri Rag M. 1)
....
He alone is Wise, Beneficent, of tender heart, of pure form and vast, thy Friend, Protector, Highest of the high. He is neither young nor old. His court is eternal. We gather from Him what we seek, for, He's the only Shelter of the Shelterless. He is the Treasure of good, the ever-fresh Being, whose gifts are perfect. (Sri Rag M. 3)

posted earlier in the thread does encompass a substantial amount of ideas of the concept of GOD. I doubt science can achieve the ability to explain it.

Here is an email from Chandrashekhar on Rajiv Malhotra's group about this very idea.

a recent mail, Rajiv Ji had raised the question: �How are we to
creatively speculate on the relationship between classical Indian ideas and
modern science, and develop models based on Indian systems for scientific
purposes? How do we carry this out without the pitfalls of digestion being
discussed?�

I think the following approach will help to arrive at a position:

The basic objective of science is to understand how the natural world
works. However there is a fundamental difference between the approach
taken by western science and ancient Indian scientific thought to achieve
this objective. Western science has followed an incremental approach �
starting with the Newtonian laws, arriving at the atomic model and then
moving to the quantum model. Obviously it continues to work it�s way up..
In contrast ancient Indian thought had followed a top-down approach.
Intuitive leaps supported by deep insights thru contemplative methods
recognized the ultimate structure and organization of the natural world.
They then worked down from it to derive ways to use this knowledge to
support human development and sustenance.

The path of western science is quite possibly far from a full understanding
of the natural world because of the fact that it has followed a pure
materialistic approach during most of its lifetime. Only recently has it
started giving importance to non-material aspects of consciousness. And
they are digesting Indian thought in the process

In this scenario it is indeed dangerous to map any ancient Indian concepts
to western concepts. We would be playing a �catch-up� game whereas it is
they who should be doing the catching up.

At our end the need is to go back to the original scriptures and make
efforts to freshly interpret them keeping current science also in mind.
Possibly we should ignore the interpretations published over the last few
centuries and think afresh taking care to avoid the pitfalls of
non-translatables and avoidable mappings

 

[ani82v]

A fascinating site. Select India and then see how meticulously it has been researched.


Tajik, Afghan of Afghanistan Ethnic People Profile

 

[Razor]

Re: How Muslims around the world celebrate the month of Ramadan

Razor
BBT is a theory and there is a constant need in the west to get the theory validated. Even today there are many glaring holes within the theory.

The closest way you can perceive what god is different for everyone.

However this bit



posted earlier in the thread does encompass a substantial amount of ideas of the concept of GOD. I doubt science can achieve the ability to explain it.

Here is an email from Chandrashekhar on Rajiv Malhotra's group about this very idea.

Panduranghari
Agreed, BBT is not perfect. But we are inching closer to the truth by exploring the Universe and its mysteries. Just doing nothing and saying God did it all because this book says so etc, is like square one.
But then, to each his own.

 

[ani82v]

A fascinating site. Select India and then see how meticulously it has been researched.


Tajik, Afghan of Afghanistan Ethnic People Profile

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Progress Indicator for Rajputs:


Progress Indicators [3]
Progress Scale: [4] 1.2 Evangelicals >.01% but <=2%. Professing Christians <=5%
Least-Reached: Yes
GSEC Status: Level 3 Less than 2% Evangelical. Widespread church planting within past 2 years

Ministry Obstacles
High caste communities find it especially difficult to humble themselves enough to accept God's free gift.

Outreach Ideas
Sustained prayer and dedicated workers are needed.

Pray for the followers of Christ
Pray for the small group of Christian believers among the Hindu Rajput, that they will be united in love around the truth of Scripture. Pray they live a life of love, just as Christ loved them and gave Himself up for them.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Current status for Qazi Community

Progress Indicators [3]
Progress Scale: [4] 1.1 Few, if any, known Evangelicals. Professing Christian <=5%
Least-Reached: Yes
Finishing the Task Status: Level G Engaged with church planting
GSEC Status: Level 2 Less than 2% Evangelical. Initial (localized) church planting within past 2 years

What are their beliefs?
The Qazi are Sunni Muslims of the Hanafi tradition. They faithfully follow the Muslim practice of praying five times a day. They also fast during the month of Ramadan as do most Muslims. Some also celebrate Hindu festivals and traditions as well as participating in animistic rituals.

What are their needs?
There is a need for education. There is also a lack of employment among them.

The Qazi are a very strategic community to bring to faith in Christ as they would be natural spiritual leaders as followers of Isa. Terrific influence among many Muslim groups could be made if a Qazi man were able to remain in the community and be a Christian Qazi leader. With Christ all things are possible

I am not sure what kind of opinions should I make about missionaries. Ghanta secularism!!!???

 

[A chauhan]

Re: How Muslims around the world celebrate the month of Ramadan

If you would go a step beyond and care to ask, where did God come from. Where did the sperms and ova that made God come from ? etc. We could go on all day.
Your answer would be
1. God was neither born nor will ever die,
2. God creates himself, and destroys himself after a certain number of eons and the cycle continues or
3. God created himself.

Each of these hypotheses are as good as the hypothesis that the Universe created itself, but at least the latter removes a redundant step in the process i.e. existence of God.



Do read up on the Big Bang theory.


First, space is not empty, coz then we'd not exist. Space is relatively empty would be a more correct statement.
Second, Rockets obey conservation of momentum (remember that momentum is a vector), and so to conserve momentum when gases are thrust from the exhaust, the rocket needs to move forward in such a way that the product of mass and velocity cancels the same for the exhaust gases.

Scientists believe that there are 11 dimensions, they have tested many theories for origin of the Universe like big bang theory, Om theory, String theory etc. and have found that the Om and String theories are more perfect than others, but still they are not sure.

When the scientists will come up with the most accurate theory or the reason behind the creation of the Universe, that theory or the reason will only signify our existence ! some will call it science some will call it God, so basically it's an ever going debate.

Panduranghari
Agreed, BBT is not perfect. But we are inching closer to the truth by exploring the Universe and its mysteries. Just doing nothing and saying God did it all because this book says so etc, is like square one.
But then, to each his own.

Naah, I am not a believer because of any book! the very first man who thought that there is God didn't think it because of any book.

 

[Razor]

Re: How Muslims around the world celebrate the month of Ramadan

Scientists believe that there are 11 dimensions, they have tested many theories for origin of the Universe like big bang theory, Om theory, String theory etc. and have found that the Om and String theories are more perfect than others, but still they are not sure.

When the scientists will come up with the most accurate theory or the reason behind the creation of the Universe, that theory or the reason will only signify our existence ! some will call it science some will call it God, so basically it's an ever going debate.

Okay.
I don't care if somebody or some people choose to worship/acknowledge the existence of God(s) etc, as long as it does not interfere with the freedom and progress of humanity and I.

 

[Razor]

Re: How Muslims around the world celebrate the month of Ramadan

Naah, I am not a believer because of any book! the very first man who thought that there is God didn't think it because of any book.

That is why I put etc, there. A very useful word that one.

Panduranghari
Agreed, BBT is not perfect. But we are inching closer to the truth by exploring the Universe and its mysteries. Just doing nothing and saying God did it all because this book says so etc, is like square one.
But then, to each his own.

 

[panduranghari]

Re: How Muslims around the world celebrate the month of Ramadan

Panduranghari
Agreed, BBT is not perfect. But we are inching closer to the truth by exploring the Universe and its mysteries. Just doing nothing and saying God did it all because this book says so etc, is like square one.
But then, to each his own.

You are wrong in your assertion when you state ,'Just doing nothing and saying God did it all because this book says so'.


The basic objective of science is to understand how the natural world works. However there is a fundamental difference between the approach taken by western science and ancient Indian scientific thought to achieve this objective.

Western science has followed an incremental approach starting with the Newtonian laws, arriving at the atomic model and then moving to the quantum model. Obviously it continues to work it's way up.

In contrast ancient Indian thought had followed a top-down approach. Intuitive leaps supported by deep insights thru contemplative methods recognized the ultimate structure and organization of the natural world. They then worked down from it to derive ways to use this knowledge to support human development and sustenance.

This is called being more open to ideas. Its not an imposition of views like it was done in USA or Europe. Just because the church states its so does not make it so. Indian intellectualism, as it needs to be understood in relation to the Veda's, does not make any assumption as such. Its states this is what I think and I am trying to work out how it applies to the current way of the world. It can be defined in a nutshell as ' Aesthetic Empiricism'

 

[panduranghari]

Re: Salam, Schalom, Namaste!

Okay. Nice.
But tell me, did the word Ahura evolve out of Asura ? I mean, was he that pissed off with the Vedic system ?

In the Rigveda, Asura is not (A + Sura) but rather (Asu+Ra), and this is clear from the accent as well. For this reason, many Devatas are specifically referred to as Asuras, like Varuna. And a Sukta has a refrain in its verses: mahat devaanaam asuratvan ekam (citing from memory).

The same word which means one thing in Vedic Sanskrit can mean something different in Laukika Sanskrit. You may wish to read - "Asura in Early Vedic Religion" by Wash Edward Hale.

Best,

Vishal Agarwal

 

[ani82v]

Think for yourself