Tejas and Cold Start Doctrine

[tarunraju]

they claim 20000 crore thats more than 3.5billion dollars serious money

Which is exactly why it looks like poppycock.

when the MMRCA requirements were framed in 2001-2004

the 1st Su30MKI was not even delivered

But IAF had a sufficient understanding of the platform the 30MKI is derived from.

even at the time of akrgil we did not have Su30 forget Mki

so you claim that Su30mki demerits forced MMRCA purchase does not wash

Spend some time in that MMRCA thread. Then maybe you'll begin to understand the rationale between choosing a 10-lakh rupee sedan over a 10-lakh rupee MUV...or why people choose 5-seater Hyundai Vernas over 7-seater Suzuki Ertigas in the same or lesser price band. Requirements.

if EFT is offering 20000cr less than Rafale then ---- rafale

to be fair ask rafale to match the price

20000 cr is serious money lets take that

It doesn't exactly work that way. Renegotiations will take years. Our security requirements need us to place an order two years ago. We're already late.

Anyway, back to topic.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Which is exactly why it looks like poppycock.



But IAF had a sufficient understanding of the platform the 30MKI is derived from.



Spend some time in that MMRCA thread. Then maybe you'll begin to understand the rationale between choosing a 10-lakh rupee sedan over a 10-lakh rupee MUV...or why people choose 5-seater Hyundai Vernas over 7-seater Suzuki Ertigas in the same or lesser price band. Requirements.



It doesn't exactly work that way. Renegotiations will take years. Our security requirements need us to place an order two years ago. We're already late.

Anyway, back to topic.

wow you mean to say when the govt gave go ahead to IAF in 2000 for MMRCA the IAF already had the knowledge of limitations of SU30

if Su30 had so many Demerits then IAF must be DUMB to be flying 200+ and again wanting to upgrade them Super Su30MKI

but then IAF is always known for dumber things

Like they were caught with thier pants down during kargil - had to overnight get the mirage modified - till then IAF brass was doing what ? what prepaation they had done ?

Well anyways

whatever you think

it is going to be difficult to ignore the German EFT offer

and there will be MEGA CORRUPTION allegations

 

[pankaj nema]

@PaliwalWarrior

You are mixing up Tejas MK1 and Tejas Mk2

Tejas Mk2 is the REAL Thing which will match F 16 Block 60

But the serial production of MK2 is FOUR Years Away

ALL the problems that we are facing on MK1 will help us in saving TIME during
the design and testing of MK2

LCA navy is Tejas Mk 2

 

[pankaj nema]

@PaliwalWarrior

You said that Every NEW Plane that IAF buys
For example RAFALE will need a lot of time for becoming Fully Operational

But there is a lot of Difference between the Rafale and Tejas MK1

Tejas MK1 has LIMITED Abilities

Rafale's abilities are far too greater than Tejas Mk1 and are KNOWN to IAF

The First squadron of BOTH the Rafale and Tejas Mk1
will be ready in THREE Years Time from NOW

In case of Tejas Mk1 IAF has to think and plan HOW to use its LIMITED abilities

UNLIKE the RAFALE which will straight away form the Tip of the IAF spear
ie The FIRST and the MOST meaningful ACTION in ANY offensive
ALONG with the Su 30 MKI

The RECENT Garuda Exercise between Rafale and Su 30 MKI
was for this purpose ie for devising interoperability between the
Su30 MKI and the Rafale

 

[pankaj nema]

@PaliwalWarrior

The MOST precious Resource of IAF is its Pilots

They cannot be sacrificed just to boost the EGO of Indian Citizens

So Tejas Mk1 will ONLY play a Supporting Role
Most probably Combat Air Patrol

It is best suited for CAP being armed with Derbys and R 73
it WILL Definitely Kill the Paki JF 17 ; Mirage III and Mirage V ; Paki Helicopters and UAVs

Of course Tejas Mk1 is a Multi Role plane and can be used for Bombing missions but that depends
on the overall Situation ;the availability of other assets and the nature of the targets

If it is a Time sensitive target that has to be neutralised immediately and Tejas is the ONLY available plane
then Tejas can go on a Bombing run also

IAF also has demonstrated AN 32 and Hawk trainers as being capable for bombing
but that does not mean they will be the first choice

It all depends on the situation

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

@PaliwalWarrior

The MOST precious Resource of IAF is its Pilots

They cannot be sacrificed just to boost the EGO of Indian Citizens

Agreed but are they really safe in Mig21 right now ?

Wont we be giving them more safety if we give them Tejas Mk1 instead of Mig21 to fly ?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Its the other way around, Its the IAF ego letting young pilots to die in hopelessly outdated aircraft then giving them newer available fighters which are consider better or at least equal to Upgraded Mir-2000 ..

Also the article actually talks about limited sorties of Medium and Heavy fighters, And higher sorties of Light fighters needed for the push, Tejas suits and fits the bill more than the need ..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Air Force has a requirement for 250 LCA Mark-2s

The Air Force has a requirement for 250 LCA Mark-2s, which the government estimates would be covered by the $12 billion advance order.

"It is absolutely essential to set up an additional military aircraft facility here, as HAL is overloaded for the next 10 years and has become too unwieldy,"

Vivek Rae, former director general (acquisition) in the MoD, said, "India sorely needs aircraft manufacturing capability in the private sector. We cannot afford to put all eggs in the HAL basket."

Subhash Bhojwani, retired Air Force air marshal, agreed an additional manufacturing facility is needed,

Source : India Offers To Spend $12B To Break Monopoly | Defense News | defensenews.com

=====================

IAF is planning to operate 14 sqadron of Tejas of both MK1 & 2 >>

In a written statement tabled in the Lok Sabha on Monday, Antony's deputy, Jitendra Singh, stated, "The MiG-21 and MiG-27 aircrafts of the IAF have already been upgraded and currently equip 14 combat squadrons. These aircraft, however, are planned for being phased out over the next few years and will be replaced by the LCA."

So far, the IAF has committed to inducting only six Tejas squadrons — two squadrons of the current Tejas Mark I, and four squadrons of the improved Tejas Mark II. In addition, the navy plans to buy 40-50 Tejas for its future aircraft carriers.

Source : IAF will buy 14 Tejas squadrons, lowering costs | Business Standard News

================

Like i said before, Its just matter of time when more assembly and manufacturing lines will be open in Gov / Pvt for Tejas ..

IAF`s demand will only increase for home made fighters, MMRCA or FGFA future are uncertain ..

 

[sgarg]

The sortie rate depends a lot on spares support and skill level of technicians. A locally made fighter will definitely get better support.

I agree that Tejas can be used for CAS carrying 3x 250kg bombs (center + 2 inboard pylons), 2x anti-tank missile racks (fire & forget type), a targeting pod, and 2x WVR missiles.

The current Mark-1 should be quite capable of CAS. All the components are in place for this kind of operation.

Tejas costs as much as an imported anti-tank helicopter and only a little more than an imported trainer. What more do you want in a CAS plane??

 

[power_monger]

p2prada,I just got confirmation from Sourav Jha that Tejas has indeed flown supersonic at all attitudes.But it was able to reach its highest speed 1.6 mach at higher altitude.So that should clear tejas cruising capabilities in lower altitude.

[tweet]518713607752650752[/tweet]

 

[p2prada]

p2prada,I just got confirmation from Sourav Jha that Tejas has indeed flown supersonic at all attitudes.But it was able to reach its highest speed 1.6 mach at higher altitude.So that should clear tejas cruising capabilities in lower altitude.

[tweet]518713607752650752[/tweet]

Didn't I already answer this question? Where did my post go?

Anyway, for CAS you need low speeds, not supersonic. Check A-10 and Su-25.

 

[ninja85]

It won`t be hard to find post such as Rafale is a good for CAS somewhere in Rafale thread, IAF is not fool to arm Tejas with LBG and cluster Bombs unless it want it for CAS ..

Like Rafale, Tejas are too multirole, Difference is the Medium and light category ..

maybe india needs drones one that spits missiles at least armed with 8 missiles to provide air cover and numbering equivalent to the iaf planes.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

That may be in future in form of Rustom, But as of now and near future the IAF is responsible for CAS ..

maybe india needs drones one that spits missiles at least armed with 8 missiles to provide air cover and numbering equivalent to the iaf planes.

 

[arnabmit]

2. No MKI has been earmarked for nuke deterrence. Only Mirage-2000s. And that's less than a squadron apparently. So all 270 MKIs can be used for air superiority missions. At least 80 MKIs will be placed against China in the NE. A small group may be earmarked for operations against Pakistan, in case the Chinese don't attack. The MKIs located in the North are also part of the deterrence against China. Basically, all MKIs can be used against both China and Pakistan. We have too little information to speculate on how the IAF plans to use the MKIs in a two front war.

40 MKIs are earmarked for SFC. 40 MKIs are undergoing upgrades to carry Brahmos ALCM. Coincidence? I think not. Officially no one would disclose, but there are ample hints from multiple sources that SFC air wing is migrating from Mirage based gravity nukes to MKI based nuke tipped Brahmos.

6. LCA isn't a good aircraft for CAS. The right weapons and avionics for this mission are not yet planned to be integrated. We can talk about it more definitely when we talk about LCA Mk2's FOC. The immediate objective of the LCA is point defense and escort. CAS will continue being Jaguar's mission profile, as it has the right weapons mix for it. Rafale will multiply that capability after induction. The French are planning to develop a new low collateral weapon for this mission, or just buy Brimstones.

Under the 'missile autonomy mission' 2 new standoff PGMs are being developed, which would be operational by 2020.
> One is a medium range PGM with mmW seeker (similar to Brimstone/PAASM/9A4172 Vikhr/Nimrod in role)
> Another is a long range loitering PGM with Ku Band+EO seeker based on the PTAE-7 engine (similar to MBDA-SPEAR or SPICE-250 in role)

Once these are developed and operational, along with CBU-105, Tejas can have much teeth for CAS, but not before that. MkII FOC seems feasible.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

About Tejas Air to Ground Fire ..

Tejas Mk1 in the tactical interdiction mission configuration.

Tejas Mk1 in the battlefield interdiction (close air-support) mission configuration.

 

[AVERAGE INDIAN]

wasn't the attack helis enough for the CAS job?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

It cannot drop a 2000lb laser guided bomb towards its objective, For that you need an Aircraft ..

wasn't the attack helis enough for the CAS job?

 

[pmaitra]

@Kunal Biswas, I see that Tejas in CAS configuration. This is not outside the realm of possibility. My concern is who is coming up with these ideas? Tejas is definitely not a CAS auircraft, not meant for low-altitude combat, and does not have the robust armour required in a CAS aircraft. Tejas was designed primarily to fill the role of interception, and other high-altitude combat. Fitting any armament into any aircraft, as suggested by the picture, seems more like a marketing ploy to me.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

During Kargil we didn't had any SU-25 or A-10, The CAS was called via Old MIGs and Mirages, The need for dedicated CAS fighter is limited as most of the task are done by Multi-role capable aircraft, Hence many large and modern Air-forces do not have dedicated CAS fighters ..

Tejas is a multi-role Light fighter, Not just a single role fighter, Its design for CAS / SEAD as well and Tactical Air-superiority fighter just like any modern fighter ..

@Kunal Biswas, I see that Tejas in CAS configuration. This is not outside the realm of possibility. My concern is who is coming up with these ideas? Tejas is definitely not a CAS auircraft, not meant for low-altitude combat, and does not have the robust armour required in a CAS aircraft. Tejas was designed primarily to fill the role of interception, and other high-altitude combat. Fitting any armament into any aircraft, as suggested by the picture, seems more like a marketing ploy to me.

 

[ersakthivel]

@Kunal Biswas, I see that Tejas in CAS configuration. This is not outside the realm of possibility. My concern is who is coming up with these ideas? Tejas is definitely not a CAS auircraft, not meant for low-altitude combat, and does not have the robust armour required in a CAS aircraft. Tejas was designed primarily to fill the role of interception, and other high-altitude combat. Fitting any armament into any aircraft, as suggested by the picture, seems more like a marketing ploy to me.

Accepted tejas has no armor.

So even Mig-21 can do CAS missions?



Yes, Rafale carry rocket pods. Rafale comes with next generation CAS weapons profile.

Rafale will eventually bring this level of technology to India.




Mig-21 also carries rocket pods, but it is used in air interdiction.

CAS is simply not LCA's role. LCA's role is primarily to protect the skies and protect other aircraft.

but here our DFI technocrat p2p says that rafale will bring all CAS capabilities that are not on tejas,

Does rafale has any armor? No.

So the rafale backers saying that tejas is not good for CAS , because

1.It does not have armor
2.Its low wing loading delta wing is not suitable for sustained low altitude flight

are just telling plain lies. because rafale, gripen, Typhoon are all tail less RSS deltas with low wing loading.Having canards does not alleviate their low wing loading penalty.

Because the vortex generation of canards is done by compound delta lesser swept leading edge at the root wing shape of tejas.

canards are additional control surface. tejas has much larger evelons than the euro canards to compensate for that,

So the aerodynamic philosophy and air frame construction behind both of them are same.

So what is the rationale in saying that job done by Mirage-2000 in kargil can't be done by tejas

and CAs that can be done by Rafale cant be done by tejas?

A-10 and jaguar can be used when we have complete air superiority and the enemy has shoulder fired SAMs. An impossibility in indo-china -pak war.

Americans used armored A-10 in Iraq because they had complete edge in fighter numbers and air superiority in Gulf.

But in indo-pak or indo -china war IAF cant get away with using jags in future , because such complete air superiority condition cant be obtained here.

So LGBs and helinas will be mostly used in place of rocket pods in future.

Also rocket pods acn also be integrated for Tejas.

Tejas MMR too has terrain hugging navigation ability aided by flawless 4 channel digital fly by wire which frees the pilot from the difficulties of controlling the delta wing in low altitude.

It was old deltas with no fly by wire RSS airframe which were difficult to control at ground level and gets buffetted by gusts ,

not the new RSS deltas with digital fly by wire tech and terrain hugging navigation aid from MMR.