Sukhoi Su-35 Flanker-E

[shiphone]

some correction

5,although if china take 24 units only in the end, as the first international costumer in hand already ,I thought Russia would get what she wanted. at least some SouthEast Asia country have to follow,...ex. Vientnam. and India might be in disadvantageous position in the Super30 upgrading project. I mean the price..[/QUOTE]
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and a little more

而后，有关向中国供应苏-35的问题，战略分析与技术中心专家瓦西里·卡申进行了评论。他说："目前，各方签有向中国供应24架苏-35C歼击机的框架性协议。该协议于今年1月22日在北京签署，是军机领域合作大型协议中的一部分。"åˆåŒç­¹å¤‡å†…容包括协商合同的商务条件、确认所供应飞机的技术指标。

in that news it was said both sides were preparing the the commercial terms and the Specifications of the jet. it seems that the contract might be signed in the late of this year .and earlier report in Jan is still valid...but future is always uncertain.we have no much to say before the deal is inked in the end...only time will tell

 

[p2prada]

you may misunderstand me. I should creat another post to reply instead of reply in a post arguing with another member, and 'Sir' things is just a joke,sorry about that ...when you mentioned me about the 100 jets contract ,I happened to read that news on the chinese forum,so I said that's a fresh update...so I just repost here... I tried to find the russian version or English Version this morning again...but obviously, this news just appeared in Chinese version

Normally, I would take your media with a pinch of salt. Wasn't there a report from the "Chinese Ministry" when the sale of Su-35 first leaked. A lot of Chinese depended on that article to state that the Russians were lying, when it was the other way around.

coz it was faked by one chinese media(one of editors happend to be the member of our forum, but he disappeared these days....LOL), and we read it one day earlier ,so many discussion already. one side said we bought Su27 and Su 30 in batchs ,so '24' might not be the final number ... the other side which objects this bird suspected the authenticity of the news from the beginning,so they were quite 'happy' then...

While I would say it would be prudent not to jump to conclusions, there is a chance the editor is mum for leaking information. Meaning, the 100 aircraft order could also be true.

you may have known my point, I personaly welcome this bird a lot ,24,48 or 100 is quite ok to me,...

I don't like this deal at all. I would actually prefer it does not go through.

1.when Putin came back ,Russian again turns tough against the western.but due to the economy situation,Russian might need funds, and China would like to and have to support russia for reasons of our own...china would buy more oil and gas, and Putin said days ago ,china would pay 70 billions dollors advance payment...but Russia actually didn't want to and keep limiting to sell the resource only, the Russian Pride won't accept the status of energy exporting country in the trading between Russian and China. so another option should be defence trade. and this time Russian put Su35, new SSK, S400 on table.

With exports there should also be imports. There is no point at all if China does all the importing. Regardless of oil or weapons, money is going into Russia only which upsets the trade balance even more.

Russian pride and oil trade don't really go hand in hand that way.

Russia has large oil export deals with Europe too.

4. Su35 was the ultimate one of Su27 family . and our research team would learn a lot from it and understand some latest development of Russian military Aviation ...and if PLAAF accept it, the order might be more than the currently reported 24 units. if 24 only ,these Su35s might come to PLAAF tactics training center to replace one regiment's aging J8 fighters and play the simulated enemy role along with the Su30MKK and J10...

There is a limit to the use of 24 units. I suppose we will know what use they will be of based on the regiment they are posted in.

but 117S on J20, personaly I don't think so now...

Yeah, I still have the opinion that the Su-35 deal has nothing to do with the J-20 project. Nor does it have any value in reverse engineering because of the long time it would take to reverse engineer it.

I would say it has more to do with failure in reverse engineering the Flanker by SAC. That's the reason why I don't like this deal at all. A 100 units deal will pose a threat to IAF and even the Japanese may be watching this deal with interest.

5,although if china take 24 units only in the end, as the first international costumer in hand already ,I thought Russia would get what she wanted. at least some SouthAsia country have to follow,... Vientnam. and India might be in disadvantageous position in the Super30 upgrading project. I mean the price..

I doubt there is any relation. For all you know the Indian upgrade contract may already be signed or nearing completion. Nor is the Su-35 such a major threat that it will be a cause of concern to IAF when FGFA will be inducted.

Vietnam does not pose any kind of air threat to you at all, regardless of what aircraft they buy and what you buy.

 

[gadeshi]

@shiphone
What about the Sukhoi fighters service center in China, which had also been mentioned while the deal negotiation?

Our sources report for Russian readiness to create such a center where Russian and Chinese service specs will be work together. It ia planned to be a service center not for Chinese Sukhois only but for several other countries have them (maybe, even India).

Can you tell something from your sources?

 

[p2prada]

It ia planned to be a service center not for Chinese Sukhois only but for several other countries have them (maybe, even India).

I doubt IAF will accept a service center in a foreign country for MKIs.

 

[gadeshi]

Agreed.
But we are talking about an offer, not its acceptance

 

[shiphone]

to gadeshi...

PLAAF overhual and upgrade their own Su27 family fighters in PLAAF onwed facilities ( they are not independ civilian ones).and as we know ,2 such facilities of them were not imported from Russia but ex-soviet nations. .and China barely imports the spares and other consumable items like all kinds of oils coz we did a lot of job to find the replacement within the nation since 1992..but when Russian AF came to China for joint Exercise , we normally import these from Russia as requested...so Russian earn quite few in the after-sale service ....and we even import the R27 missile from Ukrain not Russia at much cheap price...and BTW you should be confused the Ukrain involvement in R27 AAM upgraped project with so called PL12(SD10)AAM which's seeker is some shared tech from Russian...LOL..and some J11A (105 lacal made Su27SK) got the radar and software upgraded to gain the R77 fire ability ,the scheme should be provided by UKrain or Belrus...

so no such sukhoi facility or JV in China...some news said ,Malaysian RAF might send MKM here for service ,but I don't think anything happended..that would be cross the line too much ,MKM was close to MKI (HAL should be better place),and more importantly our service center was army owned...and the same rumor with Indonesian AF ...rumor is rumor...Malaysian might want to import the spares and consumable items from china at better price...and I think that didn't happen either. let the Suhoki make that money

It's more logical for india to have such JV( with HAL) service center in India to provide such after sale service for MKMs and Vientman's MKKs.

============
to P2P....I got your points...

only time would tell,and anyting would happen...

 

[gadeshi]

@shiphon
I've got your point.
We have heared about JV on Su-35 service center, which could cater some other Su-35 (and the other Sukhois) owners.
Su-35 will be a completely new experience to PLAAF due to its major internal changes compared to Su-27, so this step has its logics though...

 

[shiphone]

to p2p about post @562

1. normally I didn't take care too much about the News...but we got our source...you might know my style...I barely quote the news from some media
2. sorry ,chinese news is a fake one, we have find the editor who is the member of our forum(as he said, original meaning might be Su35 has go 100 units contract of intention from foriegn customers which in his mouth(or on his keyboard...LOL), it became the China instead).and he has been 'punished'...LOL...if the Voice of Russia is also some mistaken one. ..that's what I don't know
3. USA's shale oil revolution coming to Europe
4. I think we could do a lot with the 24 Su35...research, the experience of Russian style TVC and the simulated enemy role, we have a whole regeiment of Su30MKK to did this job. By this chance ,I would say ,Unlike IAF, PLAAF operate their MKK as Attacter (F15E in USAAF),those single seat J11s plays the key air superiority role. the Ground attact training occupies the most of daily training of the MKK units...and only one MKK unit was espeicially arranged for air combact purpose to study the unique combat tactics for 2-seater firghters' . there are different understanding of the 2 seater fighters between our AFs.
5. thers is no plan to 'copy' AL31F since the very beginning...if we want ,we would import. 117S was a interim project for Russian ,in my understanding ,129S might be the ultimate version of AL31 family. since Russian could sell 117S to China, 129S might be around the corner.

 

[gadeshi]

There are no 129 engine.

The 2-nd Stage PAK FA engine cipher is Izdeliye 30 (Article 30).

Article 30 development includes the following R&D works:
1. R&D "129" - Low Pressure Compressor (LPC), 3 stages.
2. R&D "133" - Gas Generator (GG) - High Pressure Compressor (HPC) - 5 stages + Combustion Chamber (CC) + High Pressure Turbin (HPT) - 1 stage.
3. R&D "???" - Low Pressure Turbin (LPT) 1 stage, cipher is unknown
4. R&D "135" - Purpose is unknown
5. R&D "137" - Purpose is unknown

So, 129 is not an engine, but R&D to develop its LPC

R&D 135 & 137 are rumored to be airflow-friendly Radar Blocker and Ejective Flat Nozzle respectively.

@shiphone: since Russian could sell 117S to China, 129S might be around the corner.

Correct. ODK President has stated that Article 30 engine had been already tested on the ground stand.

 

[gadeshi]

Scatter, it's the Super Flanker | Russia & India Report

 

[shiphone]

"Изделие 129" для ПАК ФА создадут раньше срока

Создание реактивного двигателя второго этапа ("Изделие 129") для перспективного истребителя Т-50 (ПАК ФА) ведется с опережением сроков. Об этом, как сообщает ИТАР-ТАСС, заявил управляющий директор НПО "Сатурн" Илья Федоров. По его словам, завершение опытно-конструкторских работ и поставка первых двигателей министерству обороны России в настоящее время планируются на 2015 год, когда первые истребители Т-50 должны начать поступать на вооружение.

"Сейчас подразделения НПО 'Сатурн' и взаимодействующих структур работают над эскизным проектом двигателя. Все согласовано. Работы ведутся в Москве, Рыбинске и на других площадках. У нас есть твердая уверенность, что двигатель второго этапа будет сделан раньше, чем все ожидают", - рассказал Федоров, отметив, что "растягивать сроки разработки и продолжать выпускать двигатель первого этапа ("Изделие 117", АЛ-41Ф1 - примечание "Ленты.Ру") экономически невыгодно".

Согласно планам разработки и производства истребителя Т-50, двигатель первого этапа - АЛ-41Ф1 - будет использоваться на прототипах самолета и первых серийных моделях, которые начнут поступать на вооружение ВВС России в 2015 году. Этот двигатель способен развивать тягу в 86 килоньютонов при обычном режиме полета и в 147 килоньютонов в режиме форсажа. Кроме того, АЛ-41Ф1 оснащен плазменной системой зажигания, всеракурсным управлением вектором тяги и цифровой системой управления двигателем.

Следует отметить, что на истребители Су-35С будет устанавливаться менее мощный вариант двигателя АЛ-41Ф1 - АЛ-41Ф1С ("Изделие 117С"). От своего "старшего" варианта он отличается устаревшей цифровой системой управления двигателем и сниженной почти на пять килоньютонов тягой.

Двигатель второго этапа - "Изделие 129" - будет устанавливаться на более поздние партии ПАК ФА. О новой силовой установке пока известно не много. Ранее сообщалось, что "Изделие 129" будет отличаться от АЛ-41Ф1 увеличенной тягой, а также более высокой топливной эффективностью. Предположительно, двигатель второго этапа сможет развивать тягу в 107 килоньютонов в крейсерском режиме полета и в 176 килоньютонов в режиме форсажа. Кроме того, вероятно, будет значительно увеличен межремонтный ресурс.

По данным компании "Сухой", создающей ПАК ФА, испытания истребителя идут в соответствии с графиком. В настоящее время полеты выполняют два прототипа Т-50. Первый прототип Т-50 участвует в летных испытаниях с января 2010 года, а второй такой самолет присоединился к программе в начале марта 2011 года. Согласно графику, испытания планера ПАК ФА будут завершены в 2011-2012 году. В 2013 году министерство обороны России получит десять опытных машин установочной партии, которые будут проходить испытания на боевое применение.

 

[gadeshi]

Изделие-129 is jounalamers "additional note" which was not spoken by Fedorov.
129 index came to Vikipedia from paralay.com forums

Akhtubinsk weapons and tactics test center in January:

 

[p2prada]

4. I think we could do a lot with the 24 Su35...research, the experience of Russian style TVC and the simulated enemy role, we have a whole regeiment of Su30MKK to did this job. By this chance ,I would say ,Unlike IAF, PLAAF operate their MKK as Attacter (F15E in USAAF),those single seat J11s plays the key air superiority role. the Ground attact training occupies the most of daily training of the MKK units...and only one MKK unit was espeicially arranged for air combact purpose to study the unique combat tactics for 2-seater firghters' . there are different understanding of the 2 seater fighters between our AFs.

Su-35 in aggressor squadrons would be a waste if every aircraft is set to come at $60-70 Million, but I see the value in this. But it can't simulate MKI in BVR if the Irbis-E is restricted from long range radar locks. More useful at lower ranges and WVR I suppose.

IAF uses MKI as an air superiority aircraft first and a strike aircraft next. However it has far superior capabilities as a strike aircraft compared to a Su-27 and the Su-35. Two pilots. I would say MKI has superior capabilities over the MKK in strike as well due to the large number of Israeli pods we use for strike missions, from targeting pods, to ground mapping pods, to EW pods, apart from the Bars PESA and Russian stand off jammer pods of which I am not sure if China has any. Anyway let's keep the discussion to Su-35.

 

[p2prada]

R&D 135 & 137 are rumored to be airflow-friendly Radar Blocker and Ejective Flat Nozzle respectively.

We may need an exhaust radar blocker as well.

Correct. ODK President has stated that Article 30 engine had been already tested on the ground stand.

I thought it will undergo bench tests next year with flight testing 2 or 3 years after that.

 

[gadeshi]

 

[gadeshi]

@admins
Guys, can you relocate my posts about technology and argue with my Chinese comrades from here to the following thread, please?
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/military-aviation/47398-combat-aircraft-technology-evolution.html
Thanks in advance.

 

[gadeshi]

 

[gadeshi]

 

[gadeshi]

Su-27UB repaired and modernized:

 

[Austin]

Article 30 or Idz 129 what ever you call it was a proof of concept for the 2nd stage engine , which generated the necessary thrust for the 2nd stage engine but the actual engine is under works and designed got approved this year , most likely we would see 2nd stage engine come online for production by 2018