Sukhoi Su-35 Flanker-E

[shiphone]

P2P sir, I was always here in the past week and enjoyed reading some info about the russian fighters from someone could read russian...it seems that our publiced papers and study about Su27 development is quite objective and based on the reliable russian source...so in the future I may feel free to quote some study and statement from chinese defence magazines , books and academic papers. PLAAF owns the second largest Su27 serial jets fleet. we could find many academic papers from the china's Research team, operation team and mantaince team ,but in Chinese(LOL), which help us to understand this bird more deeply.

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about the canard on MKI and Su33, I would say in our study we thought the 'canard' contributes more lift control than the manouver...and MKI's TVC should be integrated into FBW in the end...the FBW could work without the TVC and there might be a switch on joystick to ativate the TVC .

[video=youtube_share;qGcy6zoFIh8]http://youtu.be/qGcy6zoFIh8[/video]

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sorry for OT things about Chinese 5th Gen firghter...I have no much interest to debate with another European from some second rate european state...
the world is always changing...the history told us no one would be the winner forever. so called developing countries like China ,India,were backward ,and we might be backward too now...but at least we are 'developing' , or I would say 'developing fast'. I could say someone from some state couldn't understand it but enjoying their sense of superiority over other developing countries with the past glory or neighbour's success, and blindly showcase the eurocentrism or White Supremacy. ...quite pathetic especialy under current circumstance,...LOL...if most European keep such attitude,I'm afraid the aging Europe mighte be worried...but fortunately we also see the some realistic european country like Germany , France ,UK which happened to always keep in the top league in this world.

30 years? for J20 project....yes,yes,yes, I can't agree more....we happen to have a saying from Chairman Mao ...."Thirty years is too short, seize every minute"- 三十年太短，只争朝夕.. J20 project offecially began in 2006, but advanced research for the necessary tech and theory began in the late 1980s...I'm afraid all chinese have known that the current research team are working at the 7-11 working pace(7days per week, 11 hours per day).we would see the first achievement of this 5th gen fighter project right after 30 years in 2016-17.

I know the ' Honest words hurt and good advice is harsh to the ear' ...blind words were not included but laughable..I thought there were some info about the metioned the Redar ,Engine and other tech about the J20 Project in the J20 thread. and I happen to read something about the china's airborne radar developments. so I would upgrade something in china watch sub-forum.

that's all, I would stop here...back to the Su35 topic please...and I don't want to turn this great thread into something like endless' Chinese Little Yellow man' VS 'UkXXXX big white pXX'(a very famous and excellent product) fighting...LOL...happy to you all

 

[TrueSpirit]

I have no much interest to debate with another European from some second rate european state

While you might be correct about the attitude part, the "second rate european state" phrase demands some explanation, at least from a Chinese Point of view.

PRC has been buying a lot of military stuff from Ukraine (when they can't get the same from Russia for obvious reasons). It's surprising to see that either you are unaware of such a well-known fact, or maybe, you deliberately chose to ignore it. Anyway, have a look.

ДК «Укроборонпром»

It says:

The biggest hovercraft in the world, first Ukraine Zubr coming to China. China ordered 4x Zubr hovercrafts, two building in Ukraine, others will build in China shipbuilding yard.

And this is how your fellow Chinese reacted about it on a different defense discussion forum (you can search it).

Yep, Zubr is the dream hovercraft that PLAN so urgently needs. China ordered 4x (two building in Ukraine, two will build in China) and bought whole production license and engineering drawing from Ukraine. Soon the Zubr will find a home in China.Currently PLAN hovercraft only can carry 1~2 armored vehicles once time, but Zubr can carry nearly 10 inside its body.

Good news for China. Now China has proper power projection. One Zubr can carry a team of Marines and land them in some island.

Now, if you have seen the above, take a peek, here: China hunts for both Soviet and US military technology — RT Russian politics

According to Azarov, cooperation in such areas as the construction of heavy transport aircraft, heavy ships and hovercrafts, tanks, and air defense would have good prospects. The Prime Minister noted that Ukraine has a lot of potential when it comes to radar technologies.

"The famous "Stealth" is perfectly picked up on our radars," he said, as cited by UNIAN agency.

The top official instructed the government to develop a 5-10 year cooperation program between Ukraine and China – which was declared a strategic partner back in June of this year.

On Sunday, Chinese first aircraft carrier returned to the port of Dalian after completing its initial sea trials. The 60,000 ton warship, formerly known as "Varyag", was bought as an empty shell from the Ukraine in 1998. The republic got the vessel – which was 67 % ready – after the collapse of the USSR and sold it to China for the price of "scrap metal", reminds Novy Region news agency. The carrier is expected to officially start service with the Chinese Navy in August 2012 and a naming ceremony for the ship is to be held next October, Xinhua reported.

Last year, it came to light that Chinese engineers had developed the J-15 naval fighter, which is believed to be a clone of Russia's Su-33 deck-based fighter jet. The Asian state had earlier bought the aircraft prototype – the Soviet T10K – from Ukraine, and used it to develop its own version.

China interested in cooperation with Ukraine on military aircraft modernization

So, it seems that PRC heavily depends on this second rate power i.e. Ukraine for lots of big-ticket items & critical technologies like amphibious power projection capability, aircraft carrier, design of modern naval aircraft, military transport planes, modern radars & lot more. "

It is not hard to guess, who is actually a second-rate power in technology ? PRC is even having a "strategic partnership" with this "second-rate power".

And, why are shying from debate? @gadeshi has already demonstrated on DFI that he knows what he is talking about. He knows his subject. Would be interesting to see, if the same can be said about you.

Could you even convince others that J-20 is actually on par with other 5th Gen fighters, or PRC already have the research-industrial base ready for a 5th Gen fighter & the research base actually has any origins in China, with no foreign inputs ?

 

[shiphone]

to be honest , the honor you metioned might still belong to the USSR...the Russia might be the only one inherit the huge ex-Soivet military tech heritage and could keep moving on...other ex-soivet nations might have to make the best benifit from those heritage in their hand before it gets outdated...but I thought some R&D ablity and unique tech in their hand would be well kept and go on...

may I mind you that our government always lable china as a developing country? we have some great things and we also have loads of weakness..in modern china, we are not afraid to talking about our weakness and we are going to fix these... China might be some kind of big power: industry power, tech power...(everything have to be big due to our population) but we are not the strong one which we are aiming for...so in our culture we are not shame of learning from anyone who has better knowledge and tech ,we learn from USA ,Germany and Japan ...and we also learn from India ,your sucessful IT outsourcing business as a good example and reference ...

and Business is Business, in modern China ,we thought money talks,and we pay for something and try to earn more from it later. if you understand this, everything would be easy...
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but in our culture ,we are shame of talking a lot but doing nothing , endless arguing and blaming games...and personanly I don't have much time,I have my job and English is not my native language, I couldn't play the words games brilliantly like you . if you question my contribution to J20 discussion on DFI , you might have to go to the related thread for the answer...

someone's comment not only demostrate.ignorance but also the ethnic prejudice...obviously ,i'm not the one should be ashamed

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once again ,this is a Su35 thread, and I thought there is a J20 thread already...I don't think someone's opinion whose country has no direct conflict with china about whether J20 is a 5th Gen firghter or not matters.
some simple reply
.china's AESA in service: the radar on KJ200,KJ2000, type 052C's 346 Radar and 052D's 346A radar.
.china's SCB material ...LOL,that would be a long list....1Gen DD3 in early 1980s, 2nd Gen: DD6 late 1990s, 3nd Gen: DD9 and DD4XX,4YY,4ZZ serail ---the R&D word began in 2002...WS10B use the DD6 to make the SCB. DD3 was used on the ship0borne gas turbine.
.china's composite manufactue tech: one pic talks...LOL

and F35

 

[pankaj nema]

China's Su-35 fighter order reaches 100

Source China's Su-35 fighter order reaches 100｜Politics｜News｜WantChinaTimes.com

If this Happens IAF is F****D up

 

[pankaj nema]

IAF could have Handled 24 Su 35 But 100 are just too many

Rafale and FGFA will NOT come in sufficient numbers till 2022

Super Su 30 has Not yet started

What do we do now

 

[gadeshi]

Sorry, @Shifon but those pics say nothing.

We all hear about Chnese claims for success in one area or another, but the fact is that none of them are proven with facts.

For example, let's talk about AESA... All the stations you are talking about are BIG, HUGE ones. This means that they have much less limitations on size, vollume and weight of their parts (TRMs, shieldings, cooling systems and the others).
But put all of these parts in small-sized fighter is a complete differen tech level than into ship or AWACS aircraft.
And another one question: how many of them have you done and what about their failure rates?
BTW, we heard nothing official about those AESA performance and capablities, so...

As for composits... Why had China purchased Hawker-Beechcraft company from US owners? The answer is to learn CM usage techniqs. Because it is not enough to have CMs themselves but you need to know how to use them and how to design and calculate airframes and force-cerving parts usng them.
BTW, we heard nothing official about those CMs quality and properties, as well as about where and on whoos equipment are they produced, so...

J-20... This is a very strange aircraft with uncertain usage concept. It is too inert for a fighter, has very small specific wing longtitude, canards which are encreasing RCS, drag and weight... It looks like a bomber like Su-24 or F-111 to strike Taiwan rather more than a fighter. However it has too small weapons bays to cary ASMs, ARMs or large bombs. They have insufficient length and depth for them.
Those bays are simply copy-pasted from Raptor. But Raptor has one major limitation of weapons supersonic delievery. The case is that F-22 cannot fire nothing from his bays supersonic while the flight altitude is less than 15000 meters (the air is rarefied enough starting from 10-12000m to fire even a log from any bay). This is because the fact that if you want supersonic delievery you should do the bays as long, narrow and deep as possible. The bright examles are T-50 and A-12 (SR-71 interceptor prototype). F-22s bays have critical length-to-width ratio and depth. But chinese engineers are the best in the world, so they made them even wider and with less specific depth than the Raptors ones. Bravo, what can I say...
If they will even try to use those bays on supersonic speeds, the chockwaves and sonic booms from plane, baydoors and a weapon will unite their powers and punch a plane just into the most vulnerable place - internal belly structure. This can cause many harm from engines surge to fuel detonation and complete airframe destruction.
There are many strange and uncertain design decisions were made on this plane. Non-controllable DSI (on supercruiseable craft!!!), canards, closely coupled engines, strange tailfins shape and force structure, aerodynamically horrible design of short range missile launch rails (which cannot be used on supersonic speeds) and many-many others.

This all allows the specs all over the world treat J-20 as technology demonstrator and concept prototype, but not as real fighter design.

About your tries to offend me... This is rediculous.

Your country would never make a step forward without Ukraine. You are trying to acquire from our dumb authorities all those things which you will never get from Russia or Europe. You purchase aircraft engines, transport aircraft technologies (Y-20 transport has been designed and calculated with major help of Antonov DB in Kiyev, especially wing), CM and monocrystals (from my city of Kharkiv), tank armor and armor metal working technologies, active radar homing seekers and compound-based rocket fuels for your SD-10 missiles (don't you know???) and much much more.

You would never built your Liaoning carier without help and support from ship-builders from Nikolayev SBP, as well as your analog of NITKA training facility.
I know several people from Nikolayev who have worked in China by years.

I have an experience working with your software developers. They doing good in the ties of a well-known SDK or a framework, but cannot do a step out of them.
I will never forget the Chinese argue scene. They don't argue or discuss things at all!!! They finding out who is the older one in the team and automatically agree with this person. I wonder, what scientific and technological advances can be made when no decisions are made collegially but by the few autorities in the area???

However, I respect Chinese abilities to be a prominent and skilled merchants, diplomats and spies. You are really good in those areas. But engineering and science...

We all need proofs!

 

[gadeshi]

Russian GaAs technologies:

Russian composits:

Russian monocrystals:

Alternative fuel:

Smart polymers:

 

[p2prada]

China's Su-35 fighter order reaches 100

Source China's Su-35 fighter order reaches 100｜Politics｜News｜WantChinaTimes.com

If this Happens IAF is F****D up

@gadeshi @shiphone @J20!

So it seems the first case is applicable here. The contract is for large amounts of Su-35s, probably 4-6 squadrons.

 

[p2prada]

@shiphone

The manual override for TVC is on the right side of the cockpit, not on the stick.

 

[shiphone]

We all need proofs!

Do you need proof? obviously NO ,...you have got you conclusion without any first hand source....LOL,
----------------------------------------
shall I expect to disscuss something with you? It depends....

may I ask one question?

do you accept what I said or stuff in Chinese? coz we speak in chinese,we write in Chinese ,and we teaching and learning ,doing reserch job in Chinese.
if you bring you knowledge about china's project and ability from English source into this discussion, May I bring my 'offcial 'source in Chinese here? of course ,necessary translation would be provided...

if yes,we might go on...
-----------------------------
since you have made another brilliant views about China's AESA---may I do a quick test here---would you take back your early statement first in post #535?

2 - They have no radars and NO AESA

 

[gadeshi]

@shiphone
I will gladly help you to bring proof and info to this forum to increase mutual knowledge.
Time is short resource for me, so maybe this will not be just a minute, but I'll help.

I haven't any intention to offend China and Chinese. I just bring the facts from open sources and sometimes project insiders if they are available, nothing else.
I think Russians and the other countries would be glad to cooperate with China if the China will be as honest and heafty partner as India for example.
But for now all the world can see is only a nation capable of steal all they can reach and cheat their partners (like you have cheated Sukhoi with Su-27SK license manufacturing in 2002). We all can see J-20 or the other Chinese-built products photos and make a proper conclusions from them. And all we see for now is just bolt-to-bolt copy-paste and popular "fashionable" design patterns compilations in one airframe (like J-20) without complete understanding of reasons and aftermath consequences of those decisions.

If I'm wrong, please give me (and many others with me) a proof of that.
If I can help you to do this, I will gladly help.

2 - They have no radars and NO AESA
China has no viable working production ready FIGHTER-SIZED AESA. The reasons for this conclusion I have wrote just under that article in that post. At the top of this, we all don't know any official (not fanboys) information about neither quality and capabilities of AWACS AESA, nor about technologies used. According to number of planes have been built for now, the AWACS production has major problems with radar.

And another one: We have never seen any of the "chinese" Su-27/30 photos with nose cone removed. It can point us to solution that China has no even planar-array antennae Flanker-sized radars and uses copy-pasted old soviet Mech (N001MVE) radar with parabolic Cassegrein antennae. China has obtained this radar included into Su-30MKK/MK2 weapons complex. This Mech modfication has a bypass channel to work on ground targets and use active radar homing R-77 missiles.

 

[gadeshi]

Su-27SM-3:

Su-35 in Bourget, the big report (in Russian):
Aviator.ru, Сергей Мартиросян - Su-35 по прозвищу "Show Stopper"!

 

[shiphone]

you help me to understand chinese military projetcts ? a great help from an foreigner couldn't read ,speak Chinese ? ....please..talk with normal logic and show us you bright side...yes,yes ,some 'fanboy' use his limited infromation and unrilable info to claim ' I would help you' ...I give your offcial info, can you read or listen? our ' official language' is Chinese...I'm afraid even the so called offcial info showed in front you ,but you can't get it...quite funny indeed..

and I won't waste my time either...so what's your word to my simple request ...yes or no?, make it simple and quick like a man....

may I ask one question?

do you accept what I said or stuff in Chinese? coz we speak in chinese,we write in Chinese ,and we teaching and learning ,doing reserch job in Chinese.
if you bring you knowledge about china's project and ability from English source into this discussion, May I bring my 'offcial 'source in Chinese here? of course ,necessary translation would be provided...

and as you wish to save both our times..my another request is I would like to limit our discussion only about your statements in POST #535? coz I don't want to turn this into some kind of endless auguing as I said...when I finish giving out my proofs ,I don't want to dogfighting with those extensive questions...

and you could only present youself , you new comer...most member here know there is J20 thread somewhere else...and I would bring something in that thread first and add something interesting.

--------------------------------

I think Russians and the other countries would be glad to cooperate with China if the China will be as honest and heafty partner as India for example.
But for now all the world can see is only a nation capable of steal all they can reach and cheat their partners (like you have cheated Sukhoi with Su-27SK license manufacturing in 2002).

I'm afraid you won't understand the Political relationship between China and Russia...you are too naive to understand it...and Russia is always the No.1 exporter of Chinese military equipment purchase although Indian shining in the recent years...and our Indian friends would tell you how the partnership really is...although so called bad names , France , UK ,and Italy ,of course including Ukrain are keep trading with china...don't underestimate your and other country's defence manufatures' intellegence and confidence. the governments as well...fooled and brainwashed by the western media and some russian media...

if you want to talking about the 200 Su27sk contract, the fact is China finished the 105 jets locally made and bought the 100 Su30MKK (fly away status) instead...and Russian keep selling the AL31F (AL31Fn is different contract), SAC produce the first batch of 20 J11Bs with the AL31F ,and we would accept the following orders to replace the Life ending engines...and now Su35 contract comes.

I remember someone said in this thread that : defence contract is highly political...think about it...

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and P2p (no 'sir' ,this time ...LOL)...I'm afraid the order number might still be 24...the 100 claim might be a fake news...
the fresh update from the ' the voice of Russia' ..chines version, you might have to try some google translation
"俄罗斯之声"æœªæŠ¥é“有关向中国供应苏-35战机协议的信息 : 俄罗斯之声

此前，中国一些媒体曾报道，"俄罗斯之声"å¹¿æ’­ç”µå°é€šæŠ¥æœ‰å…³åœ¨å·´é»Žå¸ƒå°”热（Le Bourget）国际航空航天展览会期间已达成供应俄产苏-35歼击机协议的信息。但我台并未做如此报道。
.........
而后，有关向中国供应苏-35的问题，战略分析与技术中心专家瓦西里·卡申进行了评论。他说："目前，各方签有向中国供应24架苏-35C歼击机的框架性协议。该协议于今年1月22日在北京签署，是军机领域合作大型协议中的一部分。"åˆåŒç­¹å¤‡å†…容包括协商合同的商务条件、确认所供应飞机的技术指标。

-----------------------

 

[gadeshi]

News: UMPO has mastered serial-used inertial friction welding of different materials: they have welded all the PD-14 engine turbin blades to the mono-crystallic turbin wheel.

 

[gadeshi]

@shiphon
I will help to find additional materials and articles for comparison (for example).
But if you are so arrogant as it seems from your posts than save your time. However, all the world cannot be able to know about Chinese advances. Your choice is up to you.

 

[Shirman]

@gadeshi there is one question which i hope you find it interesting in this given link :- http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-air-force/43829-sukhoi-su-30mki-10.html#post751556 Su-30mki Thread.......Plz See....Thanks.........

 

[gadeshi]

 

[gadeshi]

Tomsk technologies video:
http://rtdru.rt.com/filmy/tomskie-tehnologii/#part-1

Ryazan Electronics plant (produces NIIP radars):

 

[p2prada]

and P2p (no 'sir' ,this time ...LOL)...I'm afraid the order number might still be 24...the 100 claim might be a fake news...
the fresh update from the ' the voice of Russia' ..chines version, you might have to try some google translation
"俄罗斯之声"æœªæŠ¥é“有关向中国供应苏-35战机协议的信息 : 俄罗斯之声
-----------------------

I didn't say the news is official. Merely said the first case is applicable for 100 units. I was stating my opinion on what is the real goal of the deal.

Anyway cut out the sir. Totally unnecessary.

 

[shiphone]

you may misunderstand me. I should creat another post to reply instead of reply in a post arguing with another member, and 'Sir' things is just a joke,sorry about that ...when you mentioned me about the 100 jets contract ,I happened to read that news on the chinese forum,so I said that's a fresh update...so I just repost here... I tried to find the russian version or English Version this morning again...but obviously, this news just appeared in Chinese version

coz it was faked by one chinese media(one of editors happend to be the member of our forum, but he disappeared these days....LOL), and we read it one day earlier ,so many discussion already. one side said we bought Su27 and Su 30 in batchs ,so '24' might not be the final number ... the other side which objects this bird suspected the authenticity of the news from the beginning,so they were quite 'happy' then...

you may have known my point, I personaly welcome this bird a lot ,24,48 or 100 is quite ok to me,... BUT ,my friends, I'm afraid Su35 would come to china , all our source confirmed it unless some big change happened...if you asking my point to the real goals, what I said before was my personal guess(note: guess only) and after months' rethinking and observation...I thought:

1.when Putin came back ,Russian again turns tough against the western.but due to the economy situation,Russian might need funds, and China would like to and have to support russia for reasons of our own...china would buy more oil and gas, and Putin said days ago ,china would pay 70 billions dollors advance payment...but Russia actually didn't want to and keep limiting to sell the resource only, the Russian Pride won't accept the status of energy exporting country in the trading between Russian and China. so another option should be defence trade. and this time Russian put Su35, new SSK, S400 on table.

2.in the three main items ,I think Su35 and S400 are the surprise,but our navy show the interest in SSK for a while and we would offer our AIP ,2 would be made in Russia with our AIP ,and 2 would be made in China. I don't think this means that China would TOT the AIP to Russian, it might be that we ship our AIP to Russian and let them to integrate into theire SSK ...Goverment would take the Su35 offer, and our Industry objetcts it mainly ,but some research unit suport the deal..and most interesting thing is the attitude of PLAAF..it seems PLAAF keep quite neutral indeed. Su35 should be not in thier plan...and you know, we are good at long term planning..so it would affect many people and many things...but Su35 should be a tempt as well.and at least PLAAF won't worry about the funds since the goverment want the trade first.

3.about the engine...when I was in Airshow China 2012, some russian said 117S was free to sell alone, but I still doubt it...and the same as Su35,117S was not in our plan at all...we have been chasing for and supporting 99m serial(AL31 FM1,2) from another russian company for quite a long term financially and emotionally...these two models has no TVC which means we might not try russian TVC on the PT and LSP batch of J20. integration of the russian TVC into J20 flight control cost time and funds...I really doubt it..J20 was flying with some kind of AL31(enhanced version with compromised life from some PLAAF overhual facility). and we might see WS10B soon...but 117S on J20, personaly I don't think so now...

4. Su35 was the ultimate one of Su27 family . and our research team would learn a lot from it and understand some latest development of Russian military Aviation ...and if PLAAF accept it, the order might be more than the currently reported 24 units. if 24 only ,these Su35s might come to PLAAF tactics training center to replace one regiment's aging J8 fighters and play the simulated enemy role along with the Su30MKK and J10...

5,although if china take 24 units only in the end, as the first international costumer in hand already ,I thought Russia would get what she wanted. at least some SouthAsia country have to follow,... Vientnam. and India might be in disadvantageous position in the Super30 upgrading project. I mean the price..