Sukhoi Su 30MKI

[sthf]

Enjoy: http://www.idsa.in/issuebrief/impor...tive-cbrn-defensive-measures_sbmaharaj_171016

That was an incredibly informative piece.

I have a couple of questions if you don't mind.

1) Are air defence groups division sized units?
2) What, in your opinion is the size of air defence regiments, artillery as well SAM? Because mainstream media is confusing at best and foolish at worst.
3) If you were to venture a guess, what would be the frontage of an IBG?

 

[captscooby81]

Good write up ..Now as you had done this detailed research and written this article

you should tell me where is the threat of terrorist getting CBRN inside our teritory to attack our AFBs

Now CBRN threat for IBG and AFB is extremely different right if i am not wrong ...

Throw us some more light about the Air defence currently what we have and how our doctrine are designed to use them if we plan to go for a Short and Quick war against pakis with TNW???

Enjoy: http://www.idsa.in/issuebrief/impor...tive-cbrn-defensive-measures_sbmaharaj_171016

 

[TPFscopes]

Don't worry guys , there is no serious CBRN Threat as of now.
For future aspects, we will be able to tackle it for sure.

 

[sbm]

Can I get a day or two to respond? Let's just say the IAF views the most likely CW threat as being a nerve or blistering agent derivative delivered by a home-made mortar. It's possible, It's not a question of how much damage but how much disruption. A TNW strike on a forward base aimed at disrupting air operations is possible. Not likely, but certainly possible. Can I get back to you on the rest by tomorrow? The key is to have adequate defensive measures in place to prevent contamination of assets. Hence, simple solution of doors and CBRN systems.

 

[mendosa]

This is major news :

Sukhoi-30 fighter jet with two pilots goes missing near Assam’s Tezpur

When we were young, we used to lose cricket balls, but IAF is a cut above so they lose fighter planes. This is why they keep asking for more squadrons, so that they can keep losing them.

How come there's no noise about this in the media?

@aditya10r @OneGrimPilgrim @Krusty

 

[sbm]

Don't worry guys , there is no serious CBRN Threat as of now.
For future aspects, we will be able to tackle it for sure.

If I understand you correctly, about half of all HAS for aircraft are protected against CBRN and all underground aircraft hangars?

CBRN threat can take many forms - Nitrogen Mustard, Phosgene, Sarin are all quite easily manufactured in dangerous quantities - Aum Shinrikyo etc. Therefore passive defensive measures need to be effective.

As to the risk of ATGMs, it is not inconceivable for Pak to supply them but a greater source is the vast stockpiles captured in Iraq and Syria. Is India so confident in its border security as to detect all such arms shipments? The ocean is immense and the Coast Guard and marine police can't be everywhere. As for the land border, the BSF has been known to be less than diligent. So yes, it can happen.

Prepare for the worst and you'll always be pleasantly surprised.

I may be a Trinidadian Indian but phir bhi dil hai Hindustani now and always!

Will revert on the other things tomorrow.

 

[pmaitra]

This is major news :

Sukhoi-30 fighter jet with two pilots goes missing near Assam’s Tezpur

When we were young, we used to lose cricket balls, but IAF is a cut above so they lose fighter planes. This is why they keep asking for more squadrons, so that they can keep losing them.

How come there's no noise about this in the media?

@aditya10r @OneGrimPilgrim @Krusty

It is front page news in The Statesman.

 

[mendosa]

It is front page news on The Statesman.

View attachment 16134

Possibly a Chinese orchestrated defection operation?

Otherwise how does a plane 'disappear'. It's one thing to lose active data link with one's own plane but given that our air defense ecosystem is crafted to track all flying objects, including non-friendly ones, it shouldn't matter if the communication was lost, it should still have shown on radar or satellite. If the fighter had been in a crash, which has become a monthly ceremony for the IAF, the crash site would still be visible on satellite. Seems like a hush hush defection and no one wants to talk about it.

Operations like these were common during the Cold War era when CIA paid Soviet pilots to simply fly their planes into NATO territory and then they would examine the Soviet hardware. At one moment, Israel had captured a Mig fighter which no one had ever seen. Their intel services managed to safely exfiltrate the family members of the pilots to Israel where they lived a life under protection.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Diamond

Operation Diamond[1] (Hebrew: מִבְצָע יַהֲלוֹם‎, Mivtza Yahalom) was an operation undertaken by the Mossad. Its goal was the acquisition of a Soviet-built Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21, the most advanced Soviet fighter plane at that time. The operation began in mid-1963 and ended on August 16, 1966, when an Iraqi Air Force MiG-21, flown by the Iraqi AssyriandefectorMunir Redfa, landed at an air base in Israel. Israel and the United States were able to study the design of the plane.

On August 20, 1971 during the IndoPak War 1971, Flight Lieutenant Matiur Rahman, an instructor pilot, attempted to defect from the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) and join the separatist fight of Bangladesh, by flying a Lockheed T-33 Shooting Star trainer aircraft with a copy of the PAF Operational plan for the Southern theater (which he possibly stole from Air Base Headquarters) from Karachi, Pakistan to India. His attempt was foiled by trainee Pilot Officer Rashid Minhas.

 

[pmaitra]

Possibly a Chinese orchestrated defection operation?

Otherwise how does a plane 'disappear'. It's one thing to lose active data link with one's own plane but given that our air defense ecosystem is crafted to track all flying objects, including non-friendly ones, it shouldn't matter if the communication was lost, it should still have shown on radar or satellite. If the fighter had been in a crash, which has become a monthly ceremony for the IAF, the crash site would still be visible on satellite. Seems like a hush hush defection and no one wants to talk about it.

Operations like these were common during the Cold War era when CIA paid Soviet pilots to simply fly their planes into NATO territory and then they would examine the Soviet hardware. At one moment, Israel had captured a Mig fighter which no one had ever seen. Their intel services managed to safely exfiltrate the family members of the pilots to Israel where they lived a life under protection.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Diamond

Few months back an IAF Antonov-32 disappeared over the Bay of Bengal.

I hope this was not a case of defection. I suspect this was a mishap due to poor weather. One can never have the expectation that the weather would be good all the time. Considering the advent of summer, and Assam being the foothills with the Himalayas and the Tibetan Plateau to the North and the hot and humid Gangetic Delta to the south, there can be so many factors.

Here is a recent incident for reference: At least 27 hurt in turbulence on Aeroflot Moscow-Bangkok flight

 

[mayfair]

The terrain is unforgiving and harsh and inaccessible in many parts. It's not too difficult for a fallen aircraft to be lost in lush green forests or numerous crags and valleys in the region and be impossible to spot from air.

Till we have some concrete info, let's do away with conspiracy theories on defections shall we.

 

[Khagesh]

Chinese in any case don't need the MKI. They already have access to the same or better level of tech.

More importantly people are still finding WW-2 planes lost in action in much less difficult terrains.

http://www.miarecoveries.org/

Most of the himalayan ranges, with unforgiving heights and confusing difficult to track terrain are within India. So its is very much possible to crash and not be found during normal operations.

While I don't deny treachery within the armed forces but it is highly unlikely that the operational level people would be involved in such things. In fact these operations people are the ones whose sacrifice is taken for granted. Lets not make the same mistake. A good man lost is like losing a regiment against the treasonous class. These guys die for us.

 

[singhboy98]

Though there is almost a negligible possibility that the the conspiracy theory floated by a member is true, I simply fail to understand as to how a MKI can go missing just like that. It is a twin engined fighter with multiple redundancies built into it in case of failure. Even if both the engines failed simultaneously (which is next to impossible), the pilots should have had enough time to call in to the base about their emergency. I talked to my cousin (he is an ex-IAF pilot who has flown the MKI) about this and he told me that I should not make any assumptions and reach a conclusion without knowing details like the flight profile (?), purpose of the sortie and the experience of the pilots flying it. What do experienced members think about it ?

 

[Flame Thrower]

Though there is almost a negligible possibility that the the conspiracy theory floated by a member is true, I simply fail to understand as to how a MKI can go missing just like that. It is a twin engined fighter with multiple redundancies built into it in case of failure. Even if both the engines failed simultaneously (which is next to impossible), the pilots should have had enough time to call in to the base about their emergency. I talked to my cousin (he is an ex-IAF pilot who has flown the MKI) about this and he told me that I should not make any assumptions and reach a conclusion without knowing details like the flight profile (?), purpose of the sortie and the experience of the pilots flying it. What do experienced members think about it ?

We lost 6 MKIs till date. Let me also remind you that Winged Arrows based at Tezpur is one of the oldest squadrons operating Flankers. They also k!cked Typhoon A$$ 12 to 0 in Indradhanush 2015.

Coming to terrain, it one the most dangerous terrain to fly. I hope that both pilots are safe and radio block out is the reason for no information.

Coming to treacherous acts, These guys will happily give their lives at the time of war. Last thing we should do is doubting their loyalty.

 

[Khagesh]

I talked to my cousin (he is an ex-IAF pilot who has flown the MKI) about this and he told me that I should not make any assumptions and reach a conclusion without knowing details like the flight profile (?), purpose of the sortie and the experience of the pilots flying it. What do experienced members think about it ?

I am not a experienced member but what your cousin told you is absolutely right. The single engine flight is not meant for difficult to handle flight profiles. And IAF is an operators air force, they keep trying all manner of tactics and they have not left the himalayas out of their experimentation (rightly so). Don't forget there have been cases where manufacturers have called out some notorious IAF pilots as cowboys. This was an outlier case but a tamer version goes in the culture. Most manufacturers don't fully know the way a user will deploy his product. For example, a lot of the altitude records with Russian helos was created by Indian pilots, not by Russians. Sometimes experimentations lead to disastrous results but then this level of tempo has to be maintained if you are a serious formation.

 

[mendosa]

Till we have some concrete info, let's do away with conspiracy theories on defections shall we.

Let's just say it's the monthly scheduled crash ceremony of IAF as usual, no conspiracy theories until more concrete data emerges.

Expected responses from IAF :

Kadi Ninda of poor quality Russian equipment..
We are not to blame..
We need 4000 Rafales to fight a two front war with Mars and Jupiter..

 

[captscooby81]

You are extremely harsh on the Air warriors my friend ..not this much hatred on those men who fly still a 40 year old aircrafts and under poor maintenance is little rude ..Conspiracy theories can be put to rest Su-30MKI is not a Mig-23 or Mig 21 in the 1960s which the US badly wanted to get an hand so pilots defected from USSR to give away the technology ..China operates a good number of SU-30MKK so they are not going to get any great advantage taking our Su-30MKI . Plus pilot defections are Cold war days stories now a days countries use cyber bullies to get enough data and technology details ..Like how china hacked US systems to make its own J-20 and J-31 ...And last but not least you can expect is Indian Airforce pilot defecting from his country you cannot question their patriotism not at all ...

If you want conspiracy theory why not talk about chinese used some missiles to brought down the Aircraft????

Let's just say it's the monthly scheduled crash ceremony of IAF as usual, no conspiracy theories until more concrete data emerges.

 

[singhboy98]

We lost 6 MKIs till date. Let me also remind you that Winged Arrows based at Tezpur is one of the oldest squadrons operating Flankers. They also k!cked Typhoon A$$ 12 to 0 in Indradhanush 2015.

Coming to terrain, it one the most dangerous terrain to fly. I hope that both pilots are safe and radio block out is the reason for no information.

Coming to treacherous acts, These guys will happily give their lives at the time of war. Last thing we should do is doubting their loyalty.

Completely agree with you. I have to add one thing, the IAF is hiding a lot of things in this case. Something smells fishy. Let us wait and see

I am not a experienced member but what your cousin told you is absolutely right. The single engine flight is not meant for difficult to handle flight profiles. And IAF is an operators air force, they keep trying all manner of tactics and they have not left the himalayas out of their experimentation (rightly so). Don't forget there have been cases where manufacturers have called out some notorious IAF pilots as cowboys. This was an outlier case but a tamer version goes in the culture. Most manufacturers don't fully know the way a user will deploy his product. For example, a lot of the altitude records with Russian helos was created by Indian pilots, not by Russians. Sometimes experimentations lead to disastrous results but then this level of tempo has to be maintained if you are a serious formation.

I agree with you. My cousin was saying something about "below radar threshold" flights being very difficult in that terrain (Assam) and that only highly experienced pilots are allowed to practice such tactics. Just pray that both the pilots were able to eject safely in time. My cousin told me that there is literally a 2 second window to eject in such low flight profiles.

 

[singhboy98]

Let's just say it's the monthly scheduled crash ceremony of IAF as usual, no conspiracy theories until more concrete data emerges.

Expected responses from IAF :

Kadi Ninda of poor quality Russian equipment..
We are not to blame..
We need 4000 Rafales to fight a two front war with Mars and Jupiter..

Hold your horses man. Accusing a uniformed personnel of treachery is something you do not want to do unless you have solid evidence.

 

[Narasimh]

Possibly a Chinese orchestrated defection operation?

Otherwise how does a plane 'disappear'. It's one thing to lose active data link with one's own plane but given that our air defense ecosystem is crafted to track all flying objects, including non-friendly ones, it shouldn't matter if the communication was lost, it should still have shown on radar or satellite. If the fighter had been in a crash, which has become a monthly ceremony for the IAF, the crash site would still be visible on satellite. Seems like a hush hush defection and no one wants to talk about it.

Operations like these were common during the Cold War era when CIA paid Soviet pilots to simply fly their planes into NATO territory and then they would examine the Soviet hardware. At one moment, Israel had captured a Mig fighter which no one had ever seen. Their intel services managed to safely exfiltrate the family members of the pilots to Israel where they lived a life under protection.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Diamond

Nothing is easy to track in the himalayas.. If you remember the Mig 29 Crash in 2011, it was 8 days after which the wreckage was found and that too after lot of struggle by the army and IAF:

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india...fter-8-days/story-ADlvXgRtO8bXAZTGtaDuZO.html

Thing to worry is what circumstance the fighter crashed, was it flying a terrain hugging flight path in the mountains or something else that remains to be seen.

 

[mendosa]

Hold your horses man. Accusing a uniformed personnel of treachery is something you do not want to do unless you have solid evidence.

Where did I ever accuse them of treachery. I just said that Mars and Jupiter are going to invade India, don't you want to be prepared for that eventuality of a two front war?