Sukhoi Su 30MKI

[pmaitra]

Where did I ever accuse them of treachery. I just said that Mars and Jupiter are going to invade India, don't you want to be prepared for that eventuality?

I think he is referring to your earlier post about defection.

 

[mendosa]

I think he is referring to your earlier post about defection.

Ayyo, yes, upon reconsidering I'd like to withdraw that post. Can you please delete the post if possible. It's more likely to be a case of monthly scheduled crash (on account of no mistake of their own, as always) than a defection.

 

[pmaitra]

Ayyo, yes, upon reconsidering I'd like to withdraw that post. Can you please delete the post if possible. It's more likely to be a case of monthly scheduled crash (on account of no mistake of their own, as always) than a defection.

It's ok. I think we all agree we should not jump to conclusions without evidence. I don't mind discussing defections, as they do happen (MiG-25).

 

[singhboy98]

Where did I ever accuse them of treachery. I just said that Mars and Jupiter are going to invade India, don't you want to be prepared for that eventuality of a two front war?

I know sarcasm and you use loads of it. Anyways, there is just that tiny bit of a chance that China may be responsible but we will never know for sure.

 

[Khagesh]

Let's just say it's the monthly scheduled crash ceremony of IAF as usual, no conspiracy theories until more concrete data emerges.

Expected responses from IAF :

Kadi Ninda of poor quality Russian equipment..
We are not to blame..
We need 4000 Rafales to fight a two front war with Mars and Jupiter..

monthly scheduled crash ceremony

I have liked one more of your comment. You have some good sense of humour.

But about the other stuff - russian poor maintenance etc. etc. you are dead right man.

These dallas on the net have reduced even a benefitial partnership to a farce.
Anybody who listens to what is being said on the net will end up with Kawa Biryani for dinner.
Su-30MKI availability went up by about 7% even without the repairs shop being put up now. With extra spares things will improve to 75% availability easily.
Same for Mig-29K, which too needed a spares and repairs facility in India and has recently been agreed to be put up. Once that is up the Navy RFI will go up in smoke.
Apparently for Ka-226T also now. A writer on this site opened up my eyes. The net is full of hai tauba about how the extortionist cost of Ka-226T. What the hell if the order size is going to be 250% then the total cost of the order too will be 250%. Where is the confusion. I tell you the confusion is in the loyalty to India. Most on the net have their loyalties towards France or USA or UK, wherever they have their salaries or that of their wards coming from.

 

[mendosa]

But as far as treachery goes, I have personally tracked at least 6 instances in the last 2 years when the IAF came out with an alarmist white paper claiming that India is not prepared for a two front war. No amount of sugar coating is going to convince me that this was not disingenuous, primarily because such sensitive scenarios ought to be discussed with the cabinet committee on security via a secure encrypted line and not to be used to put up a drama in front of a press conference.

When Parrikar was negotiating the Rafale deal, he deliberately said "if the deal doesn't go through then we will use Sukhoi", it was most likely a bargaining tactic but the IAF used it as a political fodder to hit out at the defense minister just 24 hours after he made that statement, by claiming that he doesn't understand the difference between air superiority and multirole fighters. He probably does, but the IAF doesn't understand the difference between an objective technical assessment and a bargaining tactic, so they should have kept quiet.

No where in the world, including in India, does any service behave as wantonly as the IAF does. At a time when the Army asked the newly purchased Chinooks and Apaches to be given to them, the IAF blackmailed the establishment and took both of them claiming that the Army will have to waste money on building training centers (thereby implying that the IAF will not allow the Army to use their training schools to train Army men, or to send IAF personnel on deputation to Army aviation core). This is arrogant to the core.

They have absolutely no interest with jointness of command, or indegenization or any other national goal. They just want to induct imported hardware. They are the ones who scuttled HAL Marut in the 80s, and were almost successful in scuttling Tejas now. They are the ones who were rendered defunct during the Kargil war because they had 'forgotten' to induct LGB. The GOI had to beg other countries and purchase LGB at 25X the cost for the IAF to be able to be functionally operational and start their bombing run on Tiger Hill. Note that the LGB was invented in the 80's; Had the IAF not even thought about inducting it for a decade? what where they doing in the 90's then?

Whether all of this is treachery or not is a matter of semantics but it's definitely less than ideal and unbecoming of a force which wants to be respected. I hope they learn to act accordingly. I am sure people from the establishment frequent defense forums, and I hope these opinions reach them. Civilians are always gullible, and IAF takes advantage of this. One fine day they forgot that their little media drama is visible to the whole world including Russia, and Russia in turn threatened to expose their irresponsible behavior if they kept blaming Russian equipment for repeated human errors on part of IAF. That is when these guys were put in their place.

Let's not forget, we have a disgraced IAF chief who is under arrest and being investigated for high level corruption. What do all of you guys think all of these incidents sound like? a disciplined, honest force? make your own conclusions.

 

[Khagesh]

Nothing is easy to track in the himalayas.. If you remember the Mig 29 Crash in 2011, it was 8 days after which the wreckage was found and that too after lot of struggle by the army and IAF:

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india...fter-8-days/story-ADlvXgRtO8bXAZTGtaDuZO.html

Thing to worry is what circumstance the fighter crashed, was it flying a terrain hugging flight path in the mountains or something else that remains to be seen.

report notes:

After the crash pradhan of Thirot Panchyat Jagdish Sharma along with villagemen had trekked the high mountains and brought burnt pieces if the plans that was scattered across the snow.

However the intermittent spell of snow in the high mountains had removed the traces of the debris detected during aerial recce.

The IAF search teams were dropped on the ledge 200m above the suspected crash site at an elevation of 15000 feet high in the avalanche prone area.

 

[Khagesh]

Whether all of this is treachery or not is a matter of semantics but it's definitely less than ideal and unbecoming of a force which wants to be respected.

Agreed it is semantics. At times the higher ups or Modi ji may have specifically asked them to behave that way so he can negotiate better with foreigners. That too is understandable.

But you are right in several instances these respect seeking Seva medallists have pulled us down worse than any invader ever can.

My personal peev is that bloody Stratfor meeting where the LCA was sought to be pulled down.

Chalo chodo lets switch this thing off before they throw us out.

 

[mendosa]

Agreed it is semantics. At times the higher ups or Modi ji may have specifically asked them to behave that way so he can negotiate better with foreigners. That too is understandable.

But you are right in several instances these respect seeking Seva medallists have pulled us down worse than any invader ever can.

My personal peev is that bloody Stratfor meeting where the LCA was sought to be pulled down.

Chalo chodo lets switch this thing off before they throw us out.

There's no IAF person here to get offended or to throw us out. :biggrin2:

They are too cool to care about an online defense forum (unless maybe if you paid them consultation fees to participate). The retired IAF people must be sitting in the Bahamas sipping some fancy cocktail post retirement. The forum is frequented and updated mostly by ex-Army people.

PS : The IAF has used and overused this phrase of 'two front war' so much that if you simply google 'two front war' it throws up IAF quotes.

 

[captscooby81]

Well Buddy i wish what you said was so true ..I would have tagged with my old man to Bahamas had some sunny bath smoked some weed ..

But truth is he is sipping his Blenders pride in super hot and humid chennai sweating his pants out ...Well by quoting Army you brought the old Ghost of Army more dedicated than air force from the graveyard up again ..

Again not every retired armed forces guy is Tech savvy my Paa learned how to use whats app last year thanks to my 8 year old nephew..and opened his facebook account few months ago and just struggling to find his old friends ..

google throws the latest result based on the topics in the web its showing firstpost which is our indian website so Two front war is nothing to do with IAF..It was fought by Israel first and today is happening in yemen and syria where its a multi front war no more just two ..

We can only dream of two front war ..Reason we wont leave pakistan to survive till china jumps into war to pull us both sides ..

There's no IAF person here to get offended or to throw us out. :biggrin2:

They are too cool to care about an online defense forum (unless maybe if you paid them consultation fees to participate). The retired IAF people must be sitting in the Bahamas sipping some fancy cocktail post retirement. The forum is frequented and updated mostly by ex-Army people.

PS : The IAF has used and overused this phrase of 'two front war' so much that if you simply google 'two front war' it throws up IAF quotes.

View attachment 16142

 

[Narasimh]

There's no IAF person here to get offended or to throw us out. :biggrin2:

They are too cool to care about an online defense forum (unless maybe if you paid them consultation fees to participate). The retired IAF people must be sitting in the Bahamas sipping some fancy cocktail post retirement. The forum is frequented and updated mostly by ex-Army people.

PS : The IAF has used and overused this phrase of 'two front war' so much that if you simply google 'two front war' it throws up IAF quotes.

View attachment 16142

Generalizing has always been the problem with Indian public sentiment. One does something wrong, an entire stereotype is created with that backdrop. IAF is a hardworking professional force and they are the among the best evaluated professionals of India. I would say they deserve that Bahamas vacation.. only thing is many of them cant afford.
I think its good to criticize on issues based on facts but insinuations based on theories (of defection) are rhetorical.
#IBackTheArmedForces

 

[captscooby81]

Well said forget bahamas 80 % of them cant even afford Bangkok vacations .things are improved for them lucky their kids who started making some decent salaries with his economy growth in the last 15 years and were able to take them on holidays ...Not even Chief retires the same way like Tyagi ..For few people their inner conscience is more valuable than selling their soul to every $ thrown at their way for a deal ...

Generalizing has always been the problem with Indian public sentiment. One does something wrong, an entire stereotype is created with that backdrop. IAF is a hardworking professional force and they are the among the best evaluated professionals of India. I would say they deserve that Bahamas vacation.. only thing is many of them cant afford.
I think its good to criticize on issues based on facts but insinuations based on theories (of defection) are rhetorical.
#IBackTheArmedForces

 

[TPFscopes]

If I understand you correctly, about half of all HAS for aircraft are protected against CBRN and all underground aircraft hangars?

CBRN threat can take many forms - Nitrogen Mustard, Phosgene, Sarin are all quite easily manufactured in dangerous quantities - Aum Shinrikyo etc. Therefore passive defensive measures need to be effective.

As to the risk of ATGMs, it is not inconceivable for Pak to supply them but a greater source is the vast stockpiles captured in Iraq and Syria. Is India so confident in its border security as to detect all such arms shipments? The ocean is immense and the Coast Guard and marine police can't be everywhere. As for the land border, the BSF has been known to be less than diligent. So yes, it can happen.

Prepare for the worst and you'll always be pleasantly surprised.

I may be a Trinidadian Indian but phir bhi dil hai Hindustani now and always!

Will revert on the other things tomorrow.

For TNW ( from Pak end), all forward bases have sophisticated AD which is being upgraded to SPYDER.
PAK knows the answer of any TNW or NW, and hopefully you understood our Nuclear Doctorine (it also includes foreign chemical and biological warfare)

And for Terrorist attack, that will not be a CBRN attack and for your kind information, IAF has its own force to protect all AFBs ( IAF took it as serious concern after PATHANKOT attack)

So, take chill pill man!
Everything is good enough and to make it best enough, IAF forward their suggestions & requirements to the Government.

 

[smestarz]

Also there is another one who is yet to be questioned (NAK BROWNE) and I guess Saha might be next

But as far as treachery goes, I have personally tracked at least 6 instances in the last 2 years when the IAF came out with an alarmist white paper claiming that India is not prepared for a two front war. No amount of sugar coating is going to convince me that this was not disingenuous, primarily because such sensitive scenarios ought to be discussed with the cabinet committee on security via a secure encrypted line and not to be used to put up a drama in front of a press conference.

When Parrikar was negotiating the Rafale deal, he deliberately said "if the deal doesn't go through then we will use Sukhoi", it was most likely a bargaining tactic but the IAF used it as a political fodder to hit out at the defense minister just 24 hours after he made that statement, by claiming that he doesn't understand the difference between air superiority and multirole fighters. He probably does, but the IAF doesn't understand the difference between an objective technical assessment and a bargaining tactic, so they should have kept quiet.

No where in the world, including in India, does any service behave as wantonly as the IAF does. At a time when the Army asked the newly purchased Chinooks and Apaches to be given to them, the IAF blackmailed the establishment and took both of them claiming that the Army will have to waste money on building training centers (thereby implying that the IAF will not allow the Army to use their training schools to train Army men, or to send IAF personnel on deputation to Army aviation core). This is arrogant to the core.

They have absolutely no interest with jointness of command, or indegenization or any other national goal. They just want to induct imported hardware. They are the ones who scuttled HAL Marut in the 80s, and were almost successful in scuttling Tejas now. They are the ones who were rendered defunct during the Kargil war because they had 'forgotten' to induct LGB. The GOI had to beg other countries and purchase LGB at 25X the cost for the IAF to be able to be functionally operational and start their bombing run on Tiger Hill. Note that the LGB was invented in the 80's; Had the IAF not even thought about inducting it for a decade? what where they doing in the 90's then?

Whether all of this is treachery or not is a matter of semantics but it's definitely less than ideal and unbecoming of a force which wants to be respected. I hope they learn to act accordingly. I am sure people from the establishment frequent defense forums, and I hope these opinions reach them. Civilians are always gullible, and IAF takes advantage of this. One fine day they forgot that their little media drama is visible to the whole world including Russia, and Russia in turn threatened to expose their irresponsible behavior if they kept blaming Russian equipment for repeated human errors on part of IAF. That is when these guys were put in their place.

Let's not forget, we have a disgraced IAF chief who is under arrest and being investigated for high level corruption. What do all of you guys think all of these incidents sound like? a disciplined, honest force? make your own conclusions.

 

[xeaaex]

Chinese in any case don't need the MKI. They already have access to the same or better level of tech.

More importantly people are still finding WW-2 planes lost in action in much less difficult terrains.

http://www.miarecoveries.org/

Most of the himalayan ranges, with unforgiving heights and confusing difficult to track terrain are within India. So its is very much possible to crash and not be found during normal operations.

While I don't deny treachery within the armed forces but it is highly unlikely that the operational level people would be involved in such things. In fact these operations people are the ones whose sacrifice is taken for granted. Lets not make the same mistake. A good man lost is like losing a regiment against the treasonous class. These guys die for us.

1) fall of single Sukhoi will lead to grounding of whole fleat.
2) new of pakis are flying over our heads.

Somethings are correlated we should just see it in different angle.

 

[lcafanboy]

China says no information on missing Sukhoi, warns India on 'disturbing peace'
China today said that it has no information on India's Sukhoi-30MKI fighter jet, which went missing with two pilots near the China border on Tuesday morning.

Ananth Krishnan | Posted by Sonalee Borgohain
Beijing, May 24, 2017 | UPDATED 14:26 IST
A +A -

China said it has no information on India's Sukhoi-30MKI fighter jet. (File photo for representation)


HIGHLIGHTS

• 1
  China said today it had "no information" on India's Sukhoi-30MKI fighter jet.
  
  
• 2
  It went missing with two pilots near the China border on Tuesday.
  
  
• 3
  We hope India avoids disturbing peace in border areas, said Foreign Ministry spokesperson.
  

China said today it had "no information" on India's Sukhoi-30MKI fighter jet which went missing with two pilots near the China border, even as it chose the occasion to reiterate its territorial claims in the eastern sector.

Asked if China had any information about the jet and whether it had offered information to India, Foreign Ministry spokesperson Lu Kang told reporters, "First of all, on the eastern section of China India border, our position is consistent and clear. We have been following the situation in South Tibet very closely," he said, using the term China uses for Arunachal Pradesh which it has claims on.

"We hope India can stick to arrangements between two sides and avoid disturbing peace and stability in border areas," Lu added.


"As for the situation you mentioned, I have no relevant information to offer at the moment."

The Sukhoi aircraft with two pilots went missing on Tuesday morning around 60 km northwest of Tezpur airbase in Assam, towards the border with China. As of Wednesday morning, there was no information even after a late-night search operation.

There were reports of adverse weather in the area, while the Indian Air Force has grappled with persistent problems in its Sukhoi fleet with as many as seven reported crashes since 2009.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/...-fighter-jet-tezpur-assam-china/1/961671.html

 

[mendosa]

I think its good to criticize on issues based on facts
#IBackTheArmedForces

Here you go, criticism based on facts, just 2 posts above your comment :

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/sukhoi-su-30mki.43829/page-60#post-1304717

 

[sbm]

Sorry, but I kind of have to respond in kind. I understand the nuclear doctrine better than most. Was researching it when it was published, have written on it and was there during some of the IDSA and CLAWS discussions on it. IAF bases do have CBRN QRTs. But, a couple years ago, an article was published by a serving IAF officer indicating that training is a problem beyond the QRTs because a of a shortage of equipment for regular training. Familiarization is being done though. As far as your comments on the AD system are concerned, the Spyder purchase is for a total of 18 launchers. Spyder's efficacy against cruise missiles and aircraft is certainly good. The real issue is the rumours of a scaling down of the Akash and MRSAM orders vs what the IAF wants.

 

[sbm]

Relating to the Su-30MKI crash - while I have no specific information on it. Over difficult or heavily forested terrain, the locator beacons may not penetrate foliage. In 1995, two Peruvian Su-22s were downed by Ecuador in the Alto-Cenapa war. The pilots survived but died despite intense SAR efforts as their locator beacons could not penetrate the foliage. Their bodies were found long after the war. Is there a similar issue here?

 

[mendosa]

@captscooby81 and @Narasimh both of you have engaged me in a two front war. Let me get back to you in a while. I'm going to Flipkart to buy 5000 Rafales and 8000 F16s to respond to your two front war.