Sukhoi Su 30MKI

[ersakthivel]

My opinion is as follows as regards Indian forces today:

1. Chinese do not fight like India. If Chinese fight, they will make trouble in rear too. The number of insurgent groups in NE is not good for a fight.
2. The number of artillery pieces - both deployed and available are too low for an effective defence.
3. There are many places where tanks can be used and most likely will be used. I should have used the word "armoured vehicles" in place of tanks perhaps. India's BMP-2 are obsolete. T-72 and older tanks are not very useful. India's production of modern tanks is simply inadequate.
4. The Su-30 and Mirage fighters will hold off Chinese planes for some time, but the risk is attrition and damage to airfields.
5. India's strength are soldiers and they can hold a Chinese advance with sheer willpower, but with very high losses.
6. Chinese hold a very large number of tactical missiles and there is a fear of use of such missiles against strategic targets.
7. The sum total is such war will bring only costs and no benefit. There is logic in fighting a war if you at least have a possibility to win. Here there is no such possibility.

"Intentions can change overnight, but capabilities can not " is the saying you should count on.

And PLAF fighters are all mere high wing loading non RSS duds much inferior to Su-30 MKI and even tejas mk2s.

Why because of their high wing loading they can not take off with high weapon loads from high altitude Tibetian airfields.

And their high altitude performance too will be inferior.

but IAF planes taking off from low altitude airfields in north india like Su-30 MKI can carry much more payload and will be very effective with AWACS And near home anti aircraft missile support.

So you dont have to fear that IAF will lose after certain time period.

Against china what is important is the number of high tech modern 4.5th gen fighters with 100 plus Km range BVR missile capacity.

High wingloading fighters like F-18 and f-16 failed to take off with required loads from required distance in MMRCA trials at leh. But tejas has cleared leh trials , the reason being its low wing loading. Even in the Kargil war mirage-2000 was used to bomb high altitude kargil heights because it is a low wing loading fighter like tejas.

Point to note is even in mk1 tejas has lower wing loading and higher thrust to weight ratio than mirage-2000 upgraded and it also has more nimbler 4 channel all digital fly by wire software flown highly agile RSS airframe opposed to analog fly by wire in mirage-2000.

Also even the upgraded mirage-2000 does not have 100 plus Km range BVR and also has an inferior tracking range radar than even tejas mk1.
tejas will fire all variants of Akash and also any future and present russian 100 plus km range BVr which Mirage-2000 can not.

tejas also has the same close combat HMDS enabled Visually cued r73 e missile present on SU-30 MKI giving it a clear advantage in close combat also.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/78345390/...ck-Testing-of-Light-Combat-Aircraft-LCA-Tejas

The Tejas LCA has been designed to be aerodynamically unstable in the longitudinal axis to obtain improved maneuverability and agility over the entire flight envelope and hence, has to be stabilized artificially by the use of activecontrol technology. The flight control system is a digital, quadruplex redundant fullauthority system exercising control through two sets of paired elevons and a singlerudder.

The stability and control cycle is updated every 12.5 milli secs through highfidelity, rate and acceleration sensors and high rate control actuators. Tejas instability isdefined by 'time to double amplitude' and is one of the lowest amongst contemporary acin the world. Graph at Fig-2 depicts this value across a Mach vs altitude scale. Theregion from 0.5M to 0.7M and from 3Km to 8 Km is the zone of the highest instabilitywith time to double amplitude dropping to 200 milli secs. This implies that anydisturbance in pitch would cause an increase in amplitude by 32 times in a sec.

thats why I always stressed that 300 plus tejas mk1 and mk2 with ASEA radar and 100 plus BVR range missiles like the russian ones , meteors and Akash will ensure a great fighter wall in indian airspace that chinese fighter can never be able to break by taking off with lower loads from their high altitude tibetian air fields.

Also weather conditions will make it near impossible for continuous air ops. And holding on to any trans himalayan gains against determined indian counter effort , for longer timeframes , for the chinese will be physically impossible . thats the reason they withdrew a lot from their occupied area in the 1962 war also.

if you have any doubts ask Ray sir and Kunal Bisawas.

chinese know very well all these facts. thats why they are just teasing and not going for full fledged assault as it will push india into US NATO embrace permanently and giving nightmares to any future chinese regime forever.

 

[Anony86]

The Chinese have far better air defense than people think. Chinese have built a very good military industrial complex.

Let us not have the pretense that Rafale is a magic bullet, which it is not.

Rafale is no revolution. It is only an incremental capability for IAF. Rafale is similar to Mig-29K (the latest Mig inducted in Navy).

For one Rafale, you can buy 3 Mig-29K.

I have no problem with Rafale but not at the price at which the French want to unload.

My opinion is as follows as regards Indian forces today:

1. Chinese do not fight like India. If Chinese fight, they will make trouble in rear too. The number of insurgent groups in NE is not good for a fight.
2. The number of artillery pieces - both deployed and available are too low for an effective defence.
3. There are many places where tanks can be used and most likely will be used. I should have used the word "armoured vehicles" in place of tanks perhaps. India's BMP-2 are obsolete. T-72 and older tanks are not very useful. India's production of modern tanks is simply inadequate.
4. The Su-30 and Mirage fighters will hold off Chinese planes for some time, but the risk is attrition and damage to airfields.
5. India's strength are soldiers and they can hold a Chinese advance with sheer willpower, but with very high losses.
6. Chinese hold a very large number of tactical missiles and there is a fear of use of such missiles against strategic targets.
7. The sum total is such war will bring only costs and no benefit. There is logic in fighting a war if you at least have a possibility to win. Here there is no such possibility.

It's true that war with China is not favorable to India and we must not think otherwise as well. But be rest assured this is not 1962 and India is in good position to defend itself from Chinese aggression. Yes if the war stretch to two front war it will be difficult for India at present stage because of lack and delay in procurement of key resources like additional fighters, howitzers, etc. But in that case you may also assume other countries to join India, and that will be a huge debate of ifs and buts. For for only Indo-China conflict, we are not in that terrible state as mentioned by you.

I agree with you that BMP-2 is old but what does China have in comparison? I also agree tanks will not be useful for mountain warfare but the same hold true for China as well. The infrastructure on the other side of the border is surely better, but do you think they will able to use these tanks and other armoured vehicles once they cross border. The terrain this side is way to difficult for them and they have no idea of how to fight in this terrain. Moreover, Brahmos missile will take care of the key positions and infrastructure on the other side of the border. In war most important thing is uninterrupted supply of ammunition.

IAF will be in advantage over PLAAF. Not only they will able to takeoff with more weapon load, but it also be able to stay in the air for long. Tibet side is more plateau and it is easier to keep an eye on the enemy's action and also easier to plan counter action. But PLAAF will have to do an up heal task. Similar to IAF's inventory, even PLAAF's inventory is filled with age old fighters other than J 10 and Sukhois with their copy variant. IAF will have good interceptor in Mig 29 which PLAAF will lack.

And don't worry similar to China, air defence on our side is quite well established. Secondly here PLAAF will come for deep strike, thus their fighters will be in danger whereas Indian fighters will just fly 100km inside their territory to cut all the supply lines so that they will be force to retreat. We are very well matched even at ground and sea where it will not be easy for PLAN fleet to counter India in Indian Ocean and most of their fleet will be intercepted near Malacca Strait only.

Thus we are a good match to China for a limited conflict, and only if the war stretches for more than a month and full scale war where both side start targeting key cities of each other with ballistic missiles, only then the question of ours losing the war or getting humiliated will arise. But I am sure China will never have this in mind as it will also push them back to 1980.

 

[p2prada]

The Chinese have far better air defense than people think. Chinese have built a very good military industrial complex.

Let us not have the pretense that Rafale is a magic bullet, which it is not.

Rafale is no magic bullet. There is no such thing as a magic bullet. Similarly the Chinese air defense is no magic bullet either. Nobody is underestimating the Chinese air defense, least of all me. I actually believe they have surpassed us in every parameter.

We are not going to fly over Chinese air defense with just the MKI. It is an air dominance aircraft, it is less capable than the Rafale in strike roles. And the access to new European weapons is very important for us.

Rafale is no revolution. It is only an incremental capability for IAF. Rafale is similar to Mig-29K (the latest Mig inducted in Navy).

The Mig-29K is a generation behind the Rafale. Rafale is a first day of war aircraft, Mig-29K is not.

For one Rafale, you can buy 3 Mig-29K.

Cheap doesn't equate to capability. That one Rafale can easily kill all three Mig-29K. In terms of operations tempo and sortie rates, the Rafale should easily exceed the capability of all three Mig-29Ks.

The IN calls the Rafale a next generation aircraft, Mig-29K is not on that list. Mig-29K wouldn't even fulfill half the requirements of the MRCA tender.

I have no problem with Rafale but not at the price at which the French want to unload.

In terms of cost vs capability, Rafale is cheap. French equipment is expensive, and the British know first hand how expensive it is.

 

[Immanuel]

^^^^


1 Rafale Kills 3 Mig-29K with what Mig-29Ks are armed with OLS and BVR missiles like R-77AE/ R-27, combined with OLS, clearly the Mig has an advantage, the K's also have the Tarang RWR and EL/L-8222 ECM pods, same as the MKI, all I can say is good luck for the Rafale trying to jam this puppy. Rafale is toast against missiles like the R-77, she won't even get with in missile range before she is shot down. The only shortcoming right now on the K is lack of AESA, I am sure they'll get the Zhuk-AE during MLU

 

[sgarg]

Sgarg

You are making valid points, perhaps too valid to be defeatist in your above posts.

Have self confidence man, 2014 is not 1962. Other posters have done a good job of refuting your points. So listen to them.

I have only one point i.e. Whatever is Chinese best military capabilities are positioned against Taiwan and US seventh fleet. Tibet is not their primary of future conquest. So whatever you read in reactionary newspapers about China's military capabilities is not coming to Tibet border any sooner. Chinese maintain 240,000 to 300,000 men with lower end weapons in Tibet with half busy in internal security. Another 100,000 rapid reaction force can be brought to conflict site very quickly from Chengdu district. This rapid reaction force is lightly armed and air mobile hence other than defensive mode, they can do not much more.

Hence stop worrying about China too much militarily. In about five years that 80,000 rapid reaction force will be ready in India. Unlike Chinese, they are not lightly armed. Reasons they are closer to the border, hence could be heavily armed.

Hence if Chinese intrude into India, then India can send Indian troops into Tibet and Sinkiang and get the Chinese off balance.

I have serious doubts that India can take on China militarily even with extra 80,000 troops.

The problem is not troop strength. The problem is sustainability. China can fight a war for years. It has the industrial capability and willpower.

It is important to understand one's own strength. It is not defeatist attitude. You cannot correct problems which you do not understand.

India will be able to take on any major country only after it is able to build 90% of its weapons locally and churns out everything in good numbers. We must drop the pretense of a strong India until that happens.

A much smaller Pakistan continues to be a major headache that demands so much attention. Why? Why Sri Lanka and Nepal do not respect Indian authority. A smart person can easily see through.

However I must add that BJP governnment has started addressing many problems. However it will take time as steps are incremental and attitudes of our people are 50 years behind the times.

 

[sgarg]

Rafale is no magic bullet. There is no such thing as a magic bullet. Similarly the Chinese air defense is no magic bullet either. Nobody is underestimating the Chinese air defense, least of all me. I actually believe they have surpassed us in every parameter.

We are not going to fly over Chinese air defense with just the MKI. It is an air dominance aircraft, it is less capable than the Rafale in strike roles. And the access to new European weapons is very important for us.



The Mig-29K is a generation behind the Rafale. Rafale is a first day of war aircraft, Mig-29K is not.



Cheap doesn't equate to capability. That one Rafale can easily kill all three Mig-29K. In terms of operations tempo and sortie rates, the Rafale should easily exceed the capability of all three Mig-29Ks.

The IN calls the Rafale a next generation aircraft, Mig-29K is not on that list. Mig-29K wouldn't even fulfill half the requirements of the MRCA tender.



In terms of cost vs capability, Rafale is cheap. French equipment is expensive, and the British know first hand how expensive it is.

How do you know so much about Rafale? The public parameters available for both planes do not at all suggest what you are saying.

Or may be you have some secret information that people like us cannot possess.

 

[p2prada]

^^^^


1 Rafale Kills 3 Mig-29K with what Mig-29Ks are armed with OLS and BVR missiles like R-77AE/ R-27, combined with OLS, clearly the Mig has an advantage, the K's also have the Tarang RWR and EL/L-8222 ECM pods, same as the MKI, all I can say is good luck for the Rafale trying to jam this puppy. Rafale is toast against missiles like the R-77, she won't even get with in missile range before she is shot down. The only shortcoming right now on the K is lack of AESA, I am sure they'll get the Zhuk-AE during MLU

Are you getting into this again?

The OLS-35 is obsolete. RVV-AE is obsolete. EL/L 8222 is obsolete. The IAF Mig-29s carry an entirely new AESA based EW suite. They don't carry the EL/L 8222. MLU for Mig-29K is far away. The basic avionics suite for Mig-35 is barely ready. Regardless the Russians are not spending as much as the French have. The Indian Navy paid $250 Million for the development of Mig-29K. That's peanuts compared to how much was spent on Rafale. The French are spending more than a Billion just for a software update. The initial development cost of MKI alone was around $600 Million, and that was a full decade before the Mig-29K contract. The full development cost is unknown. And even the MKI doesn't come close to the level of Rafale's avionics suite.

Rafale has a fully operational solid state suite. Much more than a generation ahead compared to anything on the Mig-29K.

There is a reason why IN officers call Rafale a next generation aircraft.

 

[p2prada]

How do you know so much about Rafale? The public parameters available for both planes do not at all suggest what you are saying.

Or may be you have some secret information that people like us cannot possess.

Due to the export priority given for Rafale, a lot of its current and future capabilities have been publicly revealed. Many aspects are still secret, but from what has been released, it is one hell of an aircraft. The US has been trying its best to scuttle French business. They even pressured the Brazilians to choose Gripen over Rafale. It is the only aircraft available today that comes very close to the F-35 in terms of avionics.

Mig-29K is an '80s development. Its configuration dates back to the '90s in many respects and it is based on a 40+ year old airframe. Rafale's configuration is post 2000s and is still being improved in many respects.

Rafale's development costs have ballooned to over $15 Billion. It is somewhere else as an aircraft compared to the Mig-29K.

You can read most of the information on the Know Your Rafale thread.
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-air-force/32861-know-your-rafale.html

Just go through the first page. The information released is just in the early days. More has been revealed since then.

 

[Immanuel]

Are you getting into this again?

The OLS-35 is obsolete. RVV-AE is obsolete. EL/L 8222 is obsolete. The IAF Mig-29s carry an entirely new AESA based EW suite. They don't carry the EL/L 8222. MLU for Mig-29K is far away. The basic avionics suite for Mig-35 is barely ready. Regardless the Russians are not spending as much as the French have. The Indian Navy paid $250 Million for the development of Mig-29K. That's peanuts compared to how much was spent on Rafale. The French are spending more than a Billion just for a software update. The initial development cost of MKI alone was around $600 Million, and that was a full decade before the Mig-29K contract. The full development cost is unknown. And even the MKI doesn't come close to the level of Rafale's avionics suite.

Rafale has a fully operational solid state suite. Much more than a generation ahead compared to anything on the Mig-29K.

There is a reason why IN officers call Rafale a next generation aircraft.

hmm, here we go again, not that I need your word for it but why is the RVV-AE obsolete? If indeed obsolete, then MICA IR/RF are surely just as obsoltete if not more. You think just coz Spectra would manage some old 70's radars it encountered in Libya, it can just handle the powerful and yet to be properly jammed EL/L-8222? How is the OLS-35 obsolete, if anything its just about the same as the Rafale's FSO.

All this hogwash about dev. cost irrelevant, finally we ended making an aircraft just a good if not better than the Mirage for fraction of the cost. Also let's not bring the MKI, in BVR Rafale stands no chance against the MKI as well as in dogfights.

 

[power_monger]

All this hogwash about dev. cost irrelevant, finally we ended making an aircraft just a good if not better than the Mirage for fraction of the cost. Also let's not bring the MKI, in BVR Rafale stands no chance against the MKI as well as in dogfights.

Rafale capabilities are improving day by day in this forum only. Soon or later we will start seeing comments on how rafale capabilities equals that of 5th gen fighter.

 

[p2prada]

hmm, here we go again, not that I need your word for it but why is the RVV-AE obsolete?

RVV-AE has not seen any new update. There is a new export missile called RVV-SD. And we are yet to order it, if we plan to. There is another missile under development called K-77M.

If indeed obsolete, then MICA IR/RF are surely just as obsoltete if not more.

MICA has seen new updates. If we are talking about future development, then Meteor is available on Rafale.

You think just coz Spectra would manage some old 70's radars it encountered in Libya, it can just handle the powerful and yet to be properly jammed EL/L-8222?

The Rafale's EW suite came out of a joint American and French EW demonstrator program in the '90s. I forgot the name, something starting with C. While the French went ahead with a follow on project and operationalized it on Rafale the Americans did not bring it into operation citing costs. Now they are introducing that in the NGJ program.

8222 is a basic TWT based system from the '80s. It was advanced more than a decade ago, when it was first equipped on Mig-21 Bison, then MKI and then Mig-27. DARE has surpassed the capabilities of 8222 many years ago. LCA, Mig-29 etc are all being equipped with a new suite, it is just called RWJ today. MKI is also being equipped with a new suite.

How is the OLS-35 obsolete, if anything its just about the same as the Rafale's FSO.

OLS-35 is a two color system while Rafale's IRST is a QWIP. The base technology alone is an entire generation ahead. And ALA has rejected even the old IRST because it is obsolete. They are currently waiting for a new IRST. In comparison OLS-35 is '80s tech, the same as the seeker on the R-74.

Also let's not bring the MKI, in BVR Rafale stands no chance against the MKI as well as in dogfights.

Without a new EW suite and radar MKI won't be as capable as Rafale. MKI will barely match Rafale even with the Bars Phase 1 radar, and it will still be inferior because Rafale's radar is AESA. Only Bars Phase 2 is set to surpass Rafale, but that will take a few more years considering it is still in development.

Regardless of how well MKI performs against Rafale, the Mig-29K is inferior to Rafale in far too many parameters. Even the Mig-35, which is a generation ahead compared to the Mig-29K, is inferior to Rafale in many parameters. Especially considering it was never shortlisted in the IAF MRCA.

Comparing the Mig-29K to the Rafale is a joke.

 

[p2prada]

Rafale capabilities are improving day by day in this forum only. Soon or later we will start seeing comments on how rafale capabilities equals that of 5th gen fighter.

In terms of electronics, it is 5th gen. In other parameters, it is 4th gen.

As of today, in terms of electronics, there isn't a better aircraft in operation.

 

[sgarg]

Due to the export priority given for Rafale, a lot of its current and future capabilities have been publicly revealed. Many aspects are still secret, but from what has been released, it is one hell of an aircraft. The US has been trying its best to scuttle French business. They even pressured the Brazilians to choose Gripen over Rafale. It is the only aircraft available today that comes very close to the F-35 in terms of avionics.

Mig-29K is an '80s development. Its configuration dates back to the '90s in many respects and it is based on a 40+ year old airframe. Rafale's configuration is post 2000s and is still being improved in many respects.

Rafale's development costs have ballooned to over $15 Billion. It is somewhere else as an aircraft compared to the Mig-29K.

You can read most of the information on the Know Your Rafale thread.
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-air-force/32861-know-your-rafale.html

Just go through the first page. The information released is just in the early days. More has been revealed since then.

Yours is a fine opinion piece. Thats about it. The cost of development and effectiveness of a plane are two different things.

I am really getting worried if the IAF thinks like you. If that is the case, I would doubt IAF as a fighting force.

You buy weapons to fight wars, not for bragging rights.

The biggest question is how the plane performs, or would perform in a real war situation.

 

[p2prada]

Yours is a fine opinion piece. Thats about it. The cost of development and effectiveness of a plane are two different things.

I am really getting worried if the IAF thinks like you. If that is the case, I would doubt IAF as a fighting force.

You buy weapons to fight wars, not for bragging rights.

The biggest question is how the plane performs, or would perform in a real war situation.

I think like the IAF. I have nothing on them.

And this thing about bragging rights, is that related to LCA?

 

[Pulkit]

@admin last few posts have been unrelated can u check them up.....

 

[Defcon 1]

RVV-AE has not seen any new update. There is a new export missile called RVV-SD. And we are yet to order it, if we plan to. There is another missile under development called K-77M.



MICA has seen new updates. If we are talking about future development, then Meteor is available on Rafale.



The Rafale's EW suite came out of a joint American and French EW demonstrator program in the '90s. I forgot the name, something starting with C. While the French went ahead with a follow on project and operationalized it on Rafale the Americans did not bring it into operation citing costs. Now they are introducing that in the NGJ program.

8222 is a basic TWT based system from the '80s. It was advanced more than a decade ago, when it was first equipped on Mig-21 Bison, then MKI and then Mig-27. DARE has surpassed the capabilities of 8222 many years ago. LCA, Mig-29 etc are all being equipped with a new suite, it is just called RWJ today. MKI is also being equipped with a new suite.



OLS-35 is a two color system while Rafale's IRST is a QWIP. The base technology alone is an entire generation ahead. And ALA has rejected even the old IRST because it is obsolete. They are currently waiting for a new IRST. In comparison OLS-35 is '80s tech, the same as the seeker on the R-74.



Without a new EW suite and radar MKI won't be as capable as Rafale. MKI will barely match Rafale even with the Bars Phase 1 radar, and it will still be inferior because Rafale's radar is AESA. Only Bars Phase 2 is set to surpass Rafale, but that will take a few more years considering it is still in development.

Regardless of how well MKI performs against Rafale, the Mig-29K is inferior to Rafale in far too many parameters. Even the Mig-35, which is a generation ahead compared to the Mig-29K, is inferior to Rafale in many parameters. Especially considering it was never shortlisted in the IAF MRCA.

Comparing the Mig-29K to the Rafale is a joke.

A AESA radar won't offer that much of a performance advantage in AESA, other than in LPI. The basic tech is same. Advantages of AESA over PESA are more pronounced in areas like reliability and TCO.

 

[Hari Sud]

Modern wars other than guerrilla warfare last only this long.

Chinese capability to sustain a war beyond few weeks is very questionable. Remember that one and a half trillion dollar export which China ships out and four hundred billion dollars of oil it imports thru the Malacca Straits all go into jeopardy.

No sir, the mountains favor he who climbs them well. Forget 1962 that was military blunder with no equal. Today war is decided in quick maneuvers in first few days. With these, You corner the enemy and smash him (Chinese 1962 strategy). But if enemy is stronger and more maneuverable than the attacker and prevents the attacker from gaining an advantage, it is defeat of the attacker and he is forced to back away without achieving its objective. That is where India is today. India has to do nothing but to wait on the mountain top for the Chinese to come and then smash them. Overconfident Chinese will behave like this, they will come to you still thinking 1962.

 

[sgarg]

I don't think the Chinese will repeat 1962 tactics. The Chinese have modernized their military and have keenly studied Western tactics in gulf wars.

You will see attrition warfare. They will attack India's strategic and economic targets using air-power. A border war as India envisages is India's dream.

India is not ready for a war with China. India needs to do a lot to be ready.

 

[sgarg]

I think like the IAF. I have nothing on them.

And this thing about bragging rights, is that related to LCA?

Can you make a comparison of Su-30, Rafale and Mig-29K in terms of RCS, practical weapons load, range with practical load, Type of weapons carried, Known capability of sensors etc. Please take only the capabilities which are available in already built planes, and not what is happening in labs.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

hmmm

the rafale pushers on this forum will soon say ... rafale is equal to if not better than atleast f22 definitely better thn f35