Sukhoi Su 30MKI

sgarg

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Google earth shows Su-30 at Sirsa, so Sirsa should be added to the list. Delivery of 200 a/c means 11 squadrons at 18 a/c each.
Pune-2, Bareilly-2, Halwara-2,Tezpur-1,Guwahati-1, Sirsa-1,Jodhpur-1; still one sq missing.
I found the answer I think. It is Hashimara in north Bengal.

The wikipedia says one Su-30 sq at Bhisiana but no such signs are visible in Google Earth. It also puts one sq at Halwara instead of two. Anyway Bhisiana may have one Su-30 sq after all.

So now India has six Su-30 sq deployed against Pakistan - 2 in Punjab, 1 in Haryana, 1 in Rajasthan, and 2 in Maharashtra. This is quite a significant deployment. Dont know why IAF still wants Rafale?
 

p2prada

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So how does Rafale help?
With more sorties and cheaper operation costs. Also by creating a second supply line and a second production line. Added extra benefits in other roles including the induction of new weapons.

The enemy will have to create plans to counter two different aircraft in their airspace instead of one.
 

brational

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What is the level of indigenization of MKIs? Whether HAL is capable of producing a Clone without depending on Russia other than the engines?
 

p2prada

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What is the level of indigenization of MKIs? Whether HAL is capable of producing a Clone without depending on Russia other than the engines?
It's both a yes and no. We can produce the engines on our own too.

The bigger issue would be manufacturing the landing gear which we do not have a license for. That along with titanium forges.

We can actually make a clone of the MKI, but it will be prohibitively expensive.
 

sgarg

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With more sorties and cheaper operation costs. Also by creating a second supply line and a second production line. Added extra benefits in other roles including the induction of new weapons.

The enemy will have to create plans to counter two different aircraft in their airspace instead of one.
Your logic is sound only if both programmes ran concurrently. Better still India should have participated in development of Rafale or Typhoon. The fact is Rafale is an ad-hoc purchase.

My logic is India does not have a proper strategy against China. India has already accepted that Tibet is part of China - so what is left to fight.

The Chinese claim over Arunachal Pradesh is now completely bogus as it has never acted on its claim.

The truth is that China/India border is practically calm despite claims and "perceptions" etc. The Chinese are practical people and know what works for them.
 

sgarg

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There is no war happening between China and India. China itself does not want a war with India. So unless India rocks the boat, the war is not happening.

But if India really wants to plan for a war with China, then India will need three times the fighters and three times the guns and tanks (compared to what it has today) to just balance Chinese forces.

India wont be successful with 600 odd 155mm towed guns and practically zero SP guns. What will Rafale do?
 
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p2prada

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Your logic is sound only if both programmes ran concurrently. Better still India should have participated in development of Rafale or Typhoon. The fact is Rafale is an ad-hoc purchase.
There was no way we could have afforded joining a program like Rafale. We were dirt poor. We could barely afford LCA.

My logic is India does not have a proper strategy against China. India has already accepted that Tibet is part of China - so what is left to fight.
We never planned to fight China over Tibet.

The Chinese claim over Arunachal Pradesh is now completely bogus as it has never acted on its claim.
They took large parts of Arunachal Pradesh during the 1962 war.
 

p2prada

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There is no war happening between China and India. China itself does not want a war with India. So unless India rocks the boat, the war is not happening.

But if India really wants to plan for a war with China, then India will need three times the fighters and three times the guns and tanks (compared to what it has today) to just balance Chinese forces.

India wont be successful with 600 odd 155mm towed guns and practically zero SP guns. What will Rafale do?
Rafale offsets the need for more ground equipment.

Nobody is going to fight a war today but it can be possible in a decade from now. There is no real way of knowing what may trigger a war. We could end up fighting for Africa's resources if the need arises.

We can't use tanks against China in an offensive capacity.
 

brational

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There is no war happening between China and India. China itself does not want a war with India. So unless India rocks the boat, the war is not happening.

But if India really wants to plan for a war with China, then India will need three times the fighters and three times the guns and tanks (compared to what it has today) to just balance Chinese forces.

India wont be successful with 600 odd 155mm towed guns and practically zero SP guns. What will Rafale do?
Even India does not want a war with China. Indian strategy is mainly defensive. India requires more Artillery guns but tanks are not suitable for high Himalayas (Same is applicable to China). If India maintains her sanctioned Fighter plane strength, it would be sufficient to defend our airspace. A well laid border infra and logistics will bolster our defensive capability. it is not feasible to launch an air attack in Mainland China as Tibet serves as a natural defense for China. It wud be difficult for China to breach our Air space too. IMO it is not a good idea for both the nations to wage a war.
 

Dhairya Yadav

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Even India does not want a war with China. Indian strategy is mainly defensive. India requires more Artillery guns but tanks are not suitable for high Himalayas (Same is applicable to China). If India maintains her sanctioned Fighter plane strength, it would be sufficient to defend our airspace. A well laid border infra and logistics will bolster our defensive capability. it is not feasible to launch an air attack in Mainland China as Tibet serves as a natural defense for China. It wud be difficult for China to breach our Air space too. IMO it is not a good idea for both the nations to wage a war.
Actually, its us that are at disadvantage when it comes to tanks. On the otherside of LAC, Large stretches of plains are there (though at height) .
Thats why they made such massive infrastructure in such short time.
They could easily mobilise tanks, land based rocket launchers much faster than India could.
 

sgarg

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Even India does not want a war with China. Indian strategy is mainly defensive. India requires more Artillery guns but tanks are not suitable for high Himalayas (Same is applicable to China). If India maintains her sanctioned Fighter plane strength, it would be sufficient to defend our airspace. A well laid border infra and logistics will bolster our defensive capability. it is not feasible to launch an air attack in Mainland China as Tibet serves as a natural defense for China. It wud be difficult for China to breach our Air space too. IMO it is not a good idea for both the nations to wage a war.
My opinion is as follows as regards Indian forces today:

1. Chinese do not fight like India. If Chinese fight, they will make trouble in rear too. The number of insurgent groups in NE is not good for a fight.
2. The number of artillery pieces - both deployed and available are too low for an effective defence.
3. There are many places where tanks can be used and most likely will be used. I should have used the word "armoured vehicles" in place of tanks perhaps. India's BMP-2 are obsolete. T-72 and older tanks are not very useful. India's production of modern tanks is simply inadequate.
4. The Su-30 and Mirage fighters will hold off Chinese planes for some time, but the risk is attrition and damage to airfields.
5. India's strength are soldiers and they can hold a Chinese advance with sheer willpower, but with very high losses.
6. Chinese hold a very large number of tactical missiles and there is a fear of use of such missiles against strategic targets.
7. The sum total is such war will bring only costs and no benefit. There is logic in fighting a war if you at least have a possibility to win. Here there is no such possibility.
 

sgarg

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Su-30 does not give a huge advantage against China. I contend the same is true for Rafale too.

On the contrary, peace gives far more benefits, as Chinese investment can boost employment and consumption in India. I would like to see rail and road connectivity with China at multiple points. Let trade make borders irrelevant.
 

jackprince

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My opinion is as follows as regards Indian forces today:

1. Chinese do not fight like India. If Chinese fight, they will make trouble in rear too. The number of insurgent groups in NE is not good for a fight.
So can India. Expect Tibetan Rebels to get enormous support in such occassion.

2. The number of artillery pieces - both deployed and available are too low for an effective defence.
True it is low in no. But too low to effective defence is nothing about blowing out of proportion. The terrain anyway negate much of the effect of long range artillery. But IA does have shorter range RPGs, Carl Gustavs etc. to give a bloody nose.

3. There are many places where tanks can be used and most likely will be used. I should have used the word "armoured vehicles" in place of tanks perhaps. India's BMP-2 are obsolete. T-72 and older tanks are not very useful. India's production of modern tanks is simply inadequate.
And what does China have that is so far superior to BMP-2s? Anyway, again the terrain would wreck havoc on any armoured vehicle as troops carrying RPGs and man-portable ATGMs can close in on the enemy using the terrain for cover.

4. The Su-30 and Mirage fighters will hold off Chinese planes for some time, but the risk is attrition and damage to airfields.
The aircrafts taking off from plains of India can carry more weapon load and fuel than aircrafts taking off from Tibet and other high altitude airfields. So, their endurance would be greater on a sortie compared to chinese. Even more, India have more airfields closer to border than chinese. Attrition logic also works both ways, as china also doesn't have an unlimited supply of A/Cs or airfields. Though, china being china they would initiate the attack and thus would probably cause more damage by simple logic that throwing the first punch makes it more likely to get one in than one who is reacting.

5. India's strength are soldiers and they can hold a Chinese advance with sheer willpower, but with very high losses.
Again, due to the terrain the defenders get the better chance of survivality simply due to its knowledge of terrain where the aggressor is going in relatively blind. India's strength no longer is simple soldiers, but quite good technologies that are being introduced from Fire-Locating radar to LCH, to AWACS and satellite.

6. Chinese hold a very large number of tactical missiles and there is a fear of use of such missiles against strategic targets.
And who told you that Chinese do not fear the same from India? True, most of the vitally important strategic targets in china is located a bit far for India to reach, but still will china be able to ignore the risk to any targets in closer area?

7. The sum total is such war will bring only costs and no benefit. There is logic in fighting a war if you at least have a possibility to win. Here there is no such possibility.
This is very true. India doesn't want war with anybody, period.
 
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sgarg

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Rafale offsets the need for more ground equipment.

Nobody is going to fight a war today but it can be possible in a decade from now. There is no real way of knowing what may trigger a war. We could end up fighting for Africa's resources if the need arises.

We can't use tanks against China in an offensive capacity.
The Chinese have far better air defense than people think. Chinese have built a very good military industrial complex.

Let us not have the pretense that Rafale is a magic bullet, which it is not.

Rafale is no revolution. It is only an incremental capability for IAF. Rafale is similar to Mig-29K (the latest Mig inducted in Navy).

For one Rafale, you can buy 3 Mig-29K.

I have no problem with Rafale but not at the price at which the French want to unload.
 
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Dhairya Yadav

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The Chinese have far better air defense that people think. Chinese have built a very good military industrial complex.

Let us not have the pretense that Rafale is a magic bullet, which it is not.

Rafale is no revolution. It is only an incremental capability for IAF. Rafale is similar to Mig-29K (the latest Mig inducted in Navy).

For one Rafale, you can buy 3 Mig-29K.

I have no problem with Rafale but not at the price at which the French want to unload.
Rafale is not similar in any way to MiG29K. Rafale is at a whole new level. I agree that the price for Rafale is too much, but on the other hand we badly need a fighter of that calibre. But thats debatable. Its a very controversial deal.
 

sgarg

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So can India. Expect Tibetan Rebels to get enormous support in such occassion.



True it is low in no. But too low to effective defence is nothing about blowing out of proportion. The terrain anyway negate much of the effect of long range artillery. But IA does have shorter range RPGs, Carl Gustavs etc. to give a bloody nose.



And what does China have that is so far superior to BMP-2s? Anyway, again the terrain would wreck havoc on any armoured vehicle as troops carrying RPGs and man-portable ATGMs can close in on the enemy using the terrain for cover.



The aircrafts taking off from plains of India can carry more weapon load and fuel than aircrafts taking off from Tibet and other high altitude airfields. So, their endurance would be greater on a sortie compared to chinese. Even more, India have more airfields closer to border than chinese. Attrition logic also works both ways, as china also doesn't have an unlimited supply of A/Cs or airfields. Though, china being china they would initiate the attack and thus would probably cause more damage by simple logic that throwing the first punch makes it more likely to get one in than one who is reacting.



Again, due to the terrain the defenders get the better chance of survivality simply due to its knowledge of terrain where the aggressor is going in relatively blind. India's strength no longer is simple soldiers, but quite good technologies that are being introduced from Fire-Locating radar to LCH, to AWACS and satellite.



And who told you that Chinese do not fear the same from India? True, most of the vitally important strategic targets in china is located a bit far for India to reach, but still will china be able to ignore the risk to any targets in closer area?



This is very true. India doesn't want war with anybody, period.
+
1. The Tibetans are no longer an effective force. The Chinese have populated Tibet with Han people so native Tibetans are in minority. ITBP has been diluted by India itself so its ability to conduct operations in Tibet is doubtful.

2. Where are the Indian airbases that you are referring to. India does not have planes to fill several bases. Where are the fighters for Chandigarh, Lucknow, Allahabad, Patna etc. Even airbase infrastructure in many airbases is not up to the mark to support fighter operations.

3. India has many good things like WLR but the bulk of the offensive arm - the guns and IFVs are lacking. You cannot place too much emphasis on airpower as attrition will be very high. Even the quantity of WLRs and effectiveness in jungles are points worth considering.

4. Defence is a sum of many variables which need to act in consonance. If one variable is adequate but another is not, you will still see severe problems.

5. Cool-headedness is needed while dealing with China. This is a sensitive relationship. Focussing on trade, culture etc. will give much higher dividend compared to military moves.
 

Hari Sud

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Sgarg

You are making valid points, perhaps too valid to be defeatist in your above posts.

Have self confidence man, 2014 is not 1962. Other posters have done a good job of refuting your points. So listen to them.

I have only one point i.e. Whatever is Chinese best military capabilities are positioned against Taiwan and US seventh fleet. Tibet is not their primary of future conquest. So whatever you read in reactionary newspapers about China's military capabilities is not coming to Tibet border any sooner. Chinese maintain 240,000 to 300,000 men with lower end weapons in Tibet with half busy in internal security. Another 100,000 rapid reaction force can be brought to conflict site very quickly from Chengdu district. This rapid reaction force is lightly armed and air mobile hence other than defensive mode, they can do not much more.

Hence stop worrying about China too much militarily. In about five years that 80,000 rapid reaction force will be ready in India. Unlike Chinese, they are not lightly armed. Reasons they are closer to the border, hence could be heavily armed.

Hence if Chinese intrude into India, then India can send Indian troops into Tibet and Sinkiang and get the Chinese off balance.
 

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