Sukhoi PAK FA

[p2prada]

are we getting any experience with the testing of this PAK FA ?

or our money is just for their R&D and production ?

Of course, new test facility being built at Ozhar. We will have three prototypes for testing.

 

[t_co]

Of course, new test facility being built at Ozhar. We will have three prototypes for testing.

Based on the schedule of the FGFA project, India seems like it will get the prototypes after Russia has already entered LRIP on the PAK FA.

 

[Austin]

PAK-FA T-50-4

Военный дневник Игоря Коротченко - Четвертый ПАК ФА: перелет по маршруту Комсомольск-на-Амуре - Жуковский

 

[sukhish]

Based on the schedule of the FGFA project, India seems like it will get the prototypes after Russia has already entered LRIP on the PAK FA.

you may be right, I don't thing it is any kind of joint venture . India is simply buying the fighters from russia and th's it. we will do some testing and validation and also put some new composites and other electronics for our FGFA's , but russia is the true onwer of these.

 

[p2prada]

Based on the schedule of the FGFA project, India seems like it will get the prototypes after Russia has already entered LRIP on the PAK FA.

Yes. The first prototype is to be delivered only in 2014. Early 2014 or end 2014, we are not sure. You can say the the FGFA prototype will be ready at the same time as the Type 30 engine undergoes flight testing on the PAKFA.

Overall, when the FGFA comes out, it will be much more mature than PAKFA during induction.

you may be right, I don't thing it is any kind of joint venture . India is simply buying the fighters from russia and th's it. we will do some testing and validation and also put some new composites and other electronics for our FGFA's , but russia is the true onwer of these.

Right! And we will have 3 prototypes only for photo op, it seems.

PAKFA is a different aircraft. FGFA is a different aircraft. The commonality would be as similar as the difference between Su-27SM and Su-30MKI. Ownership will be 50-50.

 

[sukhish]

Yes. The first prototype is to be delivered only in 2014. Early 2014 or end 2014, we are not sure. You can say the the FGFA prototype will be ready at the same time as the Type 30 engine undergoes flight testing on the PAKFA.

Overall, when the FGFA comes out, it will be much more mature than PAKFA during induction.



Right! And we will have 3 prototypes only for photo op, it seems.

PAKFA is a different aircraft. FGFA is a different aircraft. The commonality would be as similar as the difference between Su-27SM and Su-30MKI. Ownership will be 50-50.

PAK-FA is avey good plane. India did not have much to complain from the russians except the spare parts, the quality is very best.

 

[ersakthivel]

Use of radar blockers to cover engine blades is no 5th gen tech, it is a tech employed in F-18 hornet.

It shows that Russians haven't gone for a new stealth compliant design and just improvised on existing sukhoi design,

So there is no way you can put PAKFA in the league of F-22 or F-35 when it comes to LO.

IF PAKFA which enters into service decades after F-22 and still has higher RCS means there was no extra effort by Russians to create any brand new ground breaking stealth compliant design. If they wanted a LO they could have done it. But they didn't do it. That's why IAF actually reduced orders for PAKFA.

In a stealth plane the first requirement is striving for most optimum stealth, which is not done in PAKFA.

Since billions of dollars of indian money is going to sink into it. lets hope it's agility combined with stealth will give IAF much needed breather against J-20 till IAF finds a true 5th gen stealth.

Infact the first piece of modeling done on Indian AMCA was serpentine airintake that completely shields the engine blades of the two engines, This primary requirement for 5th gen stealth is complied with in F_22, J-20 and J-31.But strangely russians are using radar blockers which surely will give bigger RCs for PAKFA.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

russia wanted to quickly make a fifth gen plane after usa inducted 180 raptors.may be a couple of years of more r&d and the aiframe of pakfa would be much more stealthy.i wish the fgfa model hal is going to unveil this aero india be much more stealthy than base variant pakfa as the indian designers are reportedly worly in sukhoi factories.pak fa is an evolution of the su-27 flanker design,i think russian would have done a much better job if they tried to make a stealth variant of su37 or mig1.44(stealth version would made it in appearance similar to j20).

 

[cloud_9]

Video - Прибытие Т-50 в Жуковский: первое видео

 

[Austin]

From IAF interview to Force magazine on FGFA

What is the update on FGFA: numbers and specifications sought, and expected delivery year?

The FGFA is a stealth fighter being jointly developed by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and Sukhoi Design Bureau, Russia. We are presently in the negotiations stage for the R&D phase. The design specifications of the FGFA include super manoeuvrability, super cruise, low observability, sensor fusion, centralised information management, AESA radar and an internal weapon carriage capability. The first prototype is likely to be delivered in 2014 followed by two more in 2016 and 2017. However, the series production of aircraft is likely to start only in 2022.

 

[p2prada]

Hmm, the dates have changed again for prototypes.

2014 > 2017 > 2019 to 2014 > 2016 > 2017. Good news I suppose.

 

[Lubov]

Use of radar blockers to cover engine blades is no 5th gen tech

No need to be so ignorant. They are already testing S-shaped intake tunnels on the Su-47 prototype. It is a compromise decision, because S-shape intake tunnels don't provide air variable intake, that significantly reduce maneuverability and require a much more powerful engines. All techologies have their own pros and cons, m8. Japs on their Mitsubishi ATD-X also decided to use radar blockers instead of S-shape intake tunnels.

 

[p2prada]

Serpentine intakes need more air, deliver less power are less fuel efficient, and top speeds are limited along with acceleration.

Overall, S shaped intakes will make the FGFA inferior to what it is today.

Radar blockers have always been the best option.

There are major weight savings in going for S shaped intakes though. Something far more important on smaller aircraft.

S shape intakes aren't 5th gen, radar blockers are. It is just a differently shaped intake, that's all. First S duct aircraft was built in 1962.

 

[Austin]

Sukhoi had worked with S shaped duct in Su-47 Berkut and perhaps even Mig-1.44 had similar arrangement or different.

The problem with S duct is during high angles of attack it would starve the engine of adequate air flow leading to either suboptimum option or flame out or would prevent the aircraft from performing almost limitless AOA performance something PAK-FA is capable of doing. Blocker is the best way to deal with both the problem Frontal RCS and AOA performance.

And S duct would make future improvement impossible as its a permenant feature while a blocker can always be improved over period of time .

 

[ersakthivel]

The air enters the air intake pipe at the front face of the air intake, not at the S shaped bend,

then it only rushes in through the air pipe through a smooth passage of S shaped intake ,

and with the aid of great suction pull from the engine blades, without friction as it is the property of the fluids,

Even at a higher AOA the air that enters through the air intake at the front will compress the air to the engine with no interference from S shaped bend,

Even 4th gen Rafale and many other fighters have bends in air intake ,

with the stated intention of RCS reduction as primary objective ,

and it does not seem to critically affect their high AOA performance,

The job of the S shaped air intake designers is to ensure enough air to the engine considering all the high AOA phases , by designing it with such dimensions suitably.

It is not needed for normal fighters, but the primary goal of 5th gen fighters is nil exposure of engine blades to the enemy radar, as the exposure of any minute portion will result in the fighter being tracked by ever increasingly powerful x band radars.

So until now all 5th gen fights except PAKFA followed this route,

If not a full S Shape then just a bend like the RAFLE could have avoided the cumbersome radar blocker, which cannot be as stealth compliant as S Shaped air intake.

IF ADA follows the same route for AMCA,

saying the russain example of maneuverability and supply of more air at critical AOA maneuvers,

takes precedence over more stealthy S shaped air intake ,

will it be acceptable for IAF?

By the same analogy radar blockers always interfere with air flow into air intake and their effect on the fighter during critical AOA phase is even more .

 

[Defcon 1]

The air enters the air intake pipe at the front face of the air intake, then it only rushes in through the air pipe through a smooth passage without friction as it is the property of the fluids,

By the same analogy radar blockers always interfere with air flow into air intake and their effect on the fighter during critical AOA phase is even more .

So are you saying that the above three posters are wrong? If not, what is the point of this post?

 

[ersakthivel]

So are you saying that the above three posters are wrong? If not, what is the point of this post?

I put my point of view that's all. I have no intention of proving others wrong or right .

Then why all the other makers of 5th gens chose S Shaped air intake ,

which seem to affect the critical AOA agility and,

which seems to be inefficient to these three posters?

It is quite OKAY if the PAKFA designers chose their own trade offs during designing the fighter,

But it is not a universally accepted design principle for 5th gen fighters.

 

[Austin]

Which other fighter has displayed Unlimited High AOA at 360* like the MKI or Su-35 does , Not even F-22 has shown such limitless AOA , PAK-FA with 3D TVC can even do much better than the two other russian fighter. The other European fighter does not come even closer.

S-Duct starves the engine during such unlimited AOA and can lead to flame out

 

[Austin]

BTW even the X-32 design used Radar Blocker over serpentine intake here is something from AW&ST

"In a clever use of technology (a technique considered a proprietary secret by the two companies), Boeing and Pratt & Whitney worked together to add stealth to the inlet guide vanes to mask the fan blades behind them. The inlet vanes are variable and open to provide maximum air to the engine in vertical flight, but close to minimize radar reflections during flight at operational altitudes,'' reports AW&ST. The Boeing JSF's intake radar blocker is built as part of the face of the engine with a bullet-like centrepiece surrounded by angled, radiating vanes

Advocates of the Boeing design say new technology makes the short inlet a better bet. "The issue is purely one of how much distance is involved in dealing with the (radar) energy,'' said an aerospace industry official with long experience in the JSF competition. "While the longer inlets are generally easier to model (and build), they consume a lot of internal volume in the aircraft and often produce aerodynamic or maintenance challenges.''

 

[Shirman]

Is there any news weather the Russians will modify the existing PAK FA airframe or modifications r being planned........

For eg:- Adding a weapons pod / enhancing internal weapons bay area by utilizing the space between the two big engines..........