Su-30 MKI

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Rahul Singh

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Why is an Sub-Sonic cruise missile that impossible to make? What has that got to do with cluster bombs?
Not that difficult, certainly not impossible. It is like very few outside America and Europe actually tried to develop it. For all these years we were engaged with IGMDP but we were always developing building blocks. DRDO started designing and developing propulsion or small turbojet/Turbofan engine sometime ago. Ever since Brahmos we are perfecting guidance and navigation systems, soon ISRO will start ejecting satellites for IRNSS which will be a major major boost. We are not naive in composite airframes, nor we are in advance propellents/ fuel, not even in warhead.
 
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Immanuel

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Range or size isn't out of DRDO's reach, the complexity of Nirbhay comes from the 24 types of warheads, nuke, chemical, biological, thermobaric, bunker busting, anti tank cluster, anti personnel cluster... the list goes on. Furthermore, the range of 1000 km cruise to be fitted on a su-30mki is a pretty amazing target to achieve, considering that only US can deploy JASSM-ER 900km+ from some fighters. Once Nirbhay comes into play it'll be possibly the finest subsonic cruise missile on the planet further making the su-30mki into a deadlier aircraft, able to fire on targets without entering any threat zones. It takes time, also because tech trends keep changing, strategies and doctrines keep changing, requirements keep changing before they freeze the design the requirements from the end user often change a dozen times. Also the requirements in this case are for the army navy and airforce, a tri service missile not only has to fit on the su-30mki but also subs and ships both current and future may be even naval aircraft like tu-142me, p-8I for the navy and land based mobile launchers for the army. From developing verticle launch tubes to mobile road launchers to the support system takes a whole lot of time, not bad considering the missile began developement around 2007 and testing will begin 2012, 5 years is not bad for a missile that will compete with the best subsonic missiles in the world.
 

Tshering22

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To be honest, I'd be happier to see BrahMos handle a project like Nirbhay or at least let some BrahMos scientists get involved and be given complete authority in Nirbhay. DRDO's own management is not even close to what Dr. Pillai has churned out for our country. I am sure that the missile will reach our forces 3 years before DRDO even starts testing. Come on; the missile is a brilliant idea and a long-sought requirement for our forces, but with the current situation for all the DRDO projects, it is not going to be easy. Which idiot in 50s came up with the idea that all defense related stuff should be constructed under one single banner?

Even the Soviets had independent government bureaus competing like private firms with finest designs and speed of delivery. Wonder which model Nehru picked up...
 

Armand2REP

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The only thing India can apply from Brahmos is the imaging seeker. The rest of the missile is designed and made in Russia. India has no experience making cruise missiles. It can't even make the turbofan for it so it is going to have imported components.
 

Tshering22

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The only thing India can apply from Brahmos is the imaging seeker. The rest of the missile is designed and made in Russia. India has no experience making cruise missiles. It can't even make the turbofan for it so it is going to have imported components.
The propulsion is Russian made including the external design. The navigation and guidance are Indian made. Don't you think it would have been more sensible for us to import Yakhonts directly if we did not have the capacity to contribute in any sense? BrahMos block 2 and block 3 have come a long way from the initial cooperation that the first block had-- exactly what you are telling now.

The missile was a learning experience that paved way for a lot of things. If we did not have the capability to make these, how do you think Shaurya has come up? Can you enlighten me?
 

p2prada

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If IAF cluster bombs don't work, how is a cluster package going to work from a cruise missile. How does DRDO go from zero to hero to accomplish better missiles than what US fighters carry? It is DRDO...
Our missile programs have been largely successful looking at the number of successful tests of ballistic as well as cruise missiles. This includes the Agni, Prithvi, Akash, AAD, PAD, Brahmos, Shourya and K-14. All these named missiles are already in service or entering service in one version or another.

Nirbhay is obviously easier than Brahmos when it comes to development, and if we are integrating Brahmos then it is obvious that Nirbhay which is smaller and lighter can be integrated too.

It is not that we are trying to beat the US. We simply have such a good platform like the Flanker that can accept any kind of payload which makes it easy for us to do it. Even the F-15s hard points cannot handle the kind of armaments the MKI can carry, namely Brahmos. We had discussed this earlier when we compared Rafale to MKI. The MKI can carry a truck load of weapons effectively.

The biggest problem isn't Nirbhay itself, but as you said earlier, the warheads development in DRDO. Indigenous cluster bombs may be a problem, but imports are possible. Then we have our own indigenous versions of HE. Thermobaric warhead imports are possible as well. We do have different warheads already available due to our decades old ballistic missile program.

As for propulsion, it will be our own. As it has always been for all our missile programs except Brahmos.
 

ace009

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The Super Su-30 MKI upgrades - will this make the Su-30 MKI equivalent to the Su-35 BM? i.e. in terms of Engine power, Radar ability and RCS reduction? Those are the major points in which the Su-35BM is superior to the MKI rpesently. There is also IRST capabilities, Networking and Sensor fusion that should be upgraded.
 

Archer

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The Super Su-30 MKI upgrades - will this make the Su-30 MKI equivalent to the Su-35 BM? i.e. in terms of Engine power, Radar ability and RCS reduction? Those are the major points in which the Su-35BM is superior to the MKI rpesently. There is also IRST capabilities, Networking and Sensor fusion that should be upgraded.
The Su-35BM will probably remain ahead in terms of aerodynamic performance thanks to its 117S engines which offer more thrust, and its structure, which reportedly is not as beefed up as that of the MKI, which has an ultimate load of 38.8T. But in terms of avionics, sensor fusion and the like, the MKI will be on par and uniquely customized.
I am pressed for time, so will touch only on a few points.

The MKI Phase 2 upgrade for instance, as proposed by NIIP is around an AESA. A similar proposal has not been mooted for the Su-35 of which only some 2 regiments 48-64 are being procured by the Russian AF. The Irbis, on the Su-35 has lower antenna gain but much higher average power, for getting a lighter antenna which can offer rather remarkable look angles, a different approach to but similar in end objectives as the Typhoons swashplate repositioner. The Bars radar on the Su-30 MKI is proposed by NIIP to receive further enhancements to achieve its developmental potential and then transition to an AESA. Given the investment India has made in making the Bars locally, they point out this is logical. The Bars BTW, has superb performance. In Red Flag, it held up fine in training mode despite electronic jamming. In exercises with the French, they assessed it, without doubts, as a very powerful radar contributing to the Su-30 MKIs powerful performance in BVR. Sukhoi noted that current weaponry itself was not sufficient to exploit the capabilities of the Bars, so you can get an indication of an enhanced Bars. It will be an Irbis level radar and very capable. However, an AESA (as in Phase 2, if IAF agrees, and does not insist on Phase 1 itself) will be even better, offering more software driven capabilities and most importantly, incredible reliability of many hundreds of hours MTBF (between failures). AVM Barbora before retirement, noted 50 of the oldest MKIs will be upgraded to one level, and then the rest, as technology would have advanced. This indicates the IAF is adopting NIIP's proposal.

Coming to IRST, existing one is already very advanced, with a robust BVR range, so there is no pressing need to change it. However, if the Russians offer one with significantly more capability, they might change it. The one on the MiG-35, and for our 29 K and our MiG-29 upgrade is a new one from NIPP, an organization which previously used to work on their space program, and which MiG asked to design an all new OLS, over their previous suppliers. This new IRST uses an Imaging IR array, and is more sensitive than the traditional ones. If a similar one is proposed, scaled up for the Su-30, then the IAF may go for it.

For its part, DRDO is contributing an all new Mission computing suite (which combines all the systems that they had previously provided as separate LRUs) and a new RWR, designed specially for the Su-30 MKI upgrade.
More EW capabilities are also possible. Take a look at the recent MiG-29 upgrade, it incorporates a DARE ESM system with an AESA jammer from a partner, to be produced at BEL, and the MiG-27/LCA are to both include a separate, less powerful, but more compact & quite capable EW system from DRDO which combines multiple receivers and transmitters. For the Su-30 MKI upgrade, and even for the existing fleet, the DRDO may well develop a podded variant if the IAF feels they want more than the ELTA EL/L-8222 SPJ, which though capable (it is used by F-15s of the Israeli AF) is not as powerful as the LCA integrated EW suite, and the one on the MiG-29 which offers even higher power and coverage.

The Su-30 MKI upgrade will also enable new weapons.

Bottomline, the Su-35BM may have some advantages in a more powerful airframe (and thats not certain, because a second MLU may see new engines and wet plumbing for the MKI), but in terms of avionics and systems, you can be reasonably certain, this aircraft will have few peers, bar the latest F-15SEs and the Saudi F-15s. And unlike them, we will be contributing our own systems, and collaboratively improving, not just taking what is available w/o access to own customization.

Hope his answers your question.
 

p2prada

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The EW component could be satisfied by KNIRTI. The last I heard the SAP 14 and SAP 518 pods are available for the MKI.
 

Rahul Singh

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All those 24 types of warheads are not required from MK-1 we need not to be too worried about its availability by 2014. Tactical missile are developed in BLOCKS and Nirbhay for these reasons will see a progressive path just like Brahmos.
 

Archer

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There are many pods on offer from many companies, not just Russian, though pods like the SAP14 and 518 could indeed be used for the interim and some reports suggest they may already be in service. The point is as regards EW, the IAF would want maximum operational control, and if a suitable Indian EW suite is available, they'll take it. DRDO 's DARE has developed several airborne jammers for the IAF, including two systems which were fielded on the MiG-23/27s, a pod for the Jaguars, and now far more advanced systems for the LCA and MiG-27 Upgrade, and finally one for the MiG-29. Each of these new ones is under certification and is intended for series aircraft and has been approved by the IAF already. It even part financed the projects per the new MOD requirement, including the new MiG-29 system, which also saw BEL pick up part of the tab. The bottomline is there is nothing stopping DRDO, bar funding & prioritization - they have a substantial number of projects underway, from making a podded variant of a system as on the MiG-29 or MiG-27 for the Su-30 MKI. Operational controls, upgrades, source codes will remain in Indian hands.
 

ace009

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@Archer - thanks a lot. You have aswered most of my Questions. However, what about RCS reduction? Is there any project going on regarding that? The Su-35 BM does have a 10 of the RCS as the MKI.
 

ace009

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sir, my pleasure, but that is one topic i wouldnt know much about..
Thanks anyway. It is finally good to have someone who truly knows more than the rest of us. My knowledge is gleaned from 3-4 different forums and news posts - nothing as comprehensive as yours.
If you do find out about RCS reduction please do let us know.
 

D.C.

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@Archer - thanks a lot. You have aswered most of my Questions. However, what about RCS reduction? Is there any project going on regarding that? The Su-35 BM does have a 10 of the RCS as the MKI.
Well as far as i knw rcs was reduced to much extent in su 35bm . . By aplying ram . . So i thnk same cd be dne on mki . . Plz correct me if i m wrong
 

ace009

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This is what I found in another forum about a comparison - a bit dated maybe especially WRT to Radar ...

Comparison among F-22A, Su-35, EF-2000, and RAFALE C

1. Normal take-off:
* F-22A: 27,200 kg
* Su-35: 25,300 kg
* EF-2K: 17,000 kg
* Rafale: 15,000 kg

2. MTOW:
* F-22A: 28,120 kg
* Su-35: 34,500 kg
* EF-2K: 23,500 kg
* Rafale: 24,500 kg

3. Internal Fuel:
* F-22A: 9,330 kg
* Su-35: 11,500 kg
* EF-2K: 5,000 kg
* Rafale: 4,750 kg

4. Maximal Payload:
* F-22A: unknown
* Su-35: 8,000 kg
* EF-2K: 7,500 kg+
* Rafale: 9,500 kg

5. Maximal Speed, 11,000 m:
* F-22A: 2.00 Mach+ (2.25 ~ 2.42 Mach)
* Su-35: 2.25 Mach
* EF-2K: 2.00 Mach+ (2.25 Mach)
* Rafale: 1.80 Mach+ (2.00 Mach)

6. Maximal speed, 200 m:
* F-22A: 800 kts
* Su-35: 1,400 km/hr
* EF-2K: 1.14 Mach
* Rafale: 750 kts

7. Climb rate:
* F-22A: 350 m/sec, sea-level
* Su-35: 280 m/sec+, 1,000 m
* EF-2K: 315 m/sec+, sea-level
* Rafale: 305 m/sec+, sea-level

8. Operational Altitude:
* F-22A: 70,000 fts
* Su-35: 59,000 fts
* EF-2K: 65,000 fts
* Rafale: 55,000 fts

9. Ferry range:
* F-22A: 3,500 km (Internal Fuel)
* Su-35: 4,500 km (Internal Fuel + 2000 L tanks*2)
* EF-2K: 2,600 km (Internal Fuel)
* Rafale: > 2,100 km (Internal Fuel)


10. Acceleration:

* F-22A: unknown.

* Su-35: 13.8 secs from 600 km/hr to 1,100 km/hr, and 8 secs from 1,100 km/hr to 1,300 km/hr(with 50% internal fuel, standard A-A configuration, and height of 1,000 m).

* EF-2K: less than 20 seconds from 200 kts to Mach 0.9 (Twin-seaters with one 1,000 L tank and two ASRAAM, altitude unknown).

* Rafale: around 20 seconds from 300 km/hr to 1,000 km/hr at low altitude.


11. Normal upper G-limit:
* F-22A: +9.5G
* Su-35: +9.0G
* EF-2K: +9.0G
* Rafale: +9.0G

12. T/W ratio of normal take-off(AB / Max. Mil.):
* F-22A: 1.17 ~ 1.30 / 0.85 ~ 0.87
* Su-35: 1.10 ~ 1.15 / 0.69 ~ 0.70
* EF-2K: 1.08 ~ 1.14 / 0.72 ~ 0.83
* Rafale: 1.02 ~ 1.03 / 0.68 ~ 0.69

13. Take-off with standard A-A configuration:
* F-22A: 244 m
* Su-35: 400 to 450 m
* EF-2K: 228 ~ 275 m(Emergency take-off)to 457 m(Normal take-off).
* Rafale: 400 m

14. Landing:
* F-22A: unknown.
* Su-35: 650 m(with the help of braking and parachute)
* EF-2K: 500 to 700 m
* Rafale: 400 m(with the help of braking only)


15. Radar's range:

* F-22A: Tracking target of RCS = 1 m2 at the range of 200 km away --> Detecting target of RCS = 3m2 at the range of 375 to 440 km away theoretically --> 329 ~ 386.

* Su-35: Detecting target of RCS = 3m2 at the range of 350 to 400 km away --> 307 ~ 351.

* EF-2K: Tracking target of RCS = 5 m2 at the range of 160 ~ 185 km away --> Detecting target of RCS = 3m2 at the range of 200 to 272 km away theoretically --> 175 ~ 239.

* Rafale: Detecting target of RCS = 5 m2 at the range of 130 ~ 148 km away --> Detecting target of RCS = 3m2 at the range of 114 to 130 km away theoretically --> 100 ~ 114.


16. Maximal horizontal scanning angle of Radar:
* F-22A: +/- 60 degrees
* Su-35: +/-120 degrees
* EF-2K: +/- 70 degrees
* Rafale: +/- 60 degrees

17. Capability of multiple target engagement:
* F-22A: Tracking 100 and engaging 6+.
* Su-35: Tracking 30 and engaging 8.
* EF-2K: Tracking 20+ and engagine 6 to 8.
* Rafale: Tracking 40 and engaging 4 to 6.

18. Frontal minimal RCS / Ratio of RCS / Ratio of range being detected:
* F-22A: 0.00015 ~ 0.0006 m2 --> 1 ~ 4 --> 1.00 ~ 1.41
* Su-35: 1.0 ~ 3.0 m2 --> 6666 ~ 20000 --> 9.03 ~ 11.89
* EF-2K: 0.1 ~ 0.5 m2 --> 666 ~ 3333 --> 5.08 ~ 7.60
* Rafale: 0.1 ~ 0.2 m2 --> 666 ~ 1332 --> 5.08 ~ 6.04



19. Su-35 v.s other western fighters:

* Theoretically, F-22A shall be able to detect / track Su-35 at the range of 285 to 440 km / 200 to 308 km away in head to head engagement.
* Theoretically, Su-35 shall be able to detect / track F-22A at the range of 29 to 48 km / 17 to 34 km away in head to head engagement.

* Theoretically, EF-2K shall be able to detect / track Su-35 at the range of 153 to 272 km / 107 to 163 km away in head to head engagement.
* Theoretically, Su-35 shall be able to detect / track EF-2K at the range of 150 to 256 km / 90 to 180 km away in head to head engagement.

* Theoretically, Rafale shall be able to detect / track Su-35 at the range of 87 to 130 km / 52 to 91 km away in head to head engagement.
* Theoretically, Su-35 shall be able to detect / track Rafale at the range of 150 to 203 km / 90 to 142 km away in head to head engagement.
If the super 30 is comparable to the Su-35 BM, then it will be miles ahead of EF-2K and Rafale.

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-8912.html
 
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D.C.

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This is what I found in another forum about a comparison - a bit dated maybe especially WRT to Radar ...



If the super 30 is comparable to the Su-35 BM, then it will be miles ahead of EF-2K and Rafale.

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-8912.html

Well as far as i knw su35bm is upgrade of su27 wth reduced rcs better avionics n ew suite . . Nd hope the thngs wd go close to su 35bm
 

ace009

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Well as far as i knw su35bm is upgrade of su27 wth reduced rcs better avionics n ew suite . . Nd hope the thngs wd go close to su 35bm
No - the Su-35 BM also has the 117S supercruise engine (AL-41F core), changes in the airframe including reduced speedbrakes, larger internal fuel tanks and Levcons for RCS reduction (distinct from RAM based RCS reduction) ...
 

D.C.

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No - the Su-35 BM also has the 117S supercruise engine (AL-41F core), changes in the airframe including reduced speedbrakes, larger internal fuel tanks and Levcons for RCS reduction (distinct from RAM based RCS reduction) ...
Well check this url mate . . Its thr that its airframe wd be modified to be stealthy . . Tht cd be dne by either changing d geometry or applying ram . . Changing geometry wnt be easy . .
Developing the ‘Smart Skin’ concept for Su-30MKI
 

Immanuel

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The super-30 will have an uprated engine and thus will allow supercruise in certain weapon configurations.
 
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