Small arms and Light Weapons

[Lonewarrior]

Instead of Mag-58s abd Brens we should have standardised Pks.Still after the entry of Mk48d and Maximis, Pks are relevant

This is what the Pols did with their PKs

PKs are definitely very much relevant today

 

[Twinblade]

Negev is what comes closest to PKM. PKM in 7.62x51 isn't as good as 7.62x54 version as the legendary reliability came in part with strong extraction mechanism that came with rimmed cartridge.

 

[Lonewarrior]

PKM in 7.62x51 isn't as good as 7.62x54 version as the legendary reliability came in part with strong extraction mechanism that came with rimmed cartridge

UKM-2000: The Polish Successor to the PKM – Small Arms Defense Journal

sadefensejournal.com

Just go through this article, I'm sure all of your doubts about 7.62x51mm PKM's reliability will be addressed

 

[Aditya Ballal]

Negev is what comes closest to PKM. PKM in 7.62x51 isn't as good as 7.62x54 version as the legendary reliability came in part with strong extraction mechanism that came with rimmed cartridge.

UKM-2000: The Polish Successor to the PKM – Small Arms Defense Journal

sadefensejournal.com

Just go through this article, I'm sure all of your doubts about 7.62x51mm PKM's reliability will be addressed

Any insights or reviews of the 7.62x51mm NATO PKMs made by ARSENAL of Bulgaria?

7.62x51 mm MG-М2 - Arsenal JSCo. - Bulgarian manufacturer of weapons and ammunition since 1878

www.arsenal-bg.com

 

[ALBY]

Just go through this article, I'm sure all of your doubts about 7.62x51mm PKM's reliability will be addressed

-successor-to-the-pkm/[/URL]

Just go through this article, I'm sure all of your doubts about 7.6

If the video didn’t help, then the comments will help you.Dont know why Polish never conteneted for our LMG contract in which Negev was the winner.

 

[ALBY]

PKs are grossly under valued when compared with Aks.Its a gun with absolutely no haters , with a rail and disentegrating belt it cpuld become the next M2 browning ie will run through this century

 

[Johny_Baba]

Instead of Mag-58s abd Brens we should have standardised Pks.Still after the entry of Mk48d and Maximis, Pks are relevant

well who's to blame ? We happen to have loicense and ToT for PKTs - vehicle mounted PKs and yet we are not benefitting from making our own PK derivative in 7.62 NATO out of that tech and going after Negevs which is exactly annuda israeli fork of kalashnikov belt-fed machine gun

and this isn't first time i'm WHINING about it; already did it in past so many times - only people are seeing it now

So, I was thinking if we were already producing pkt for so long then why we didn't ever think of making a pkm clone, would have been a good gun, sf guys seem to like it. And for God sake either standardise on 7.62 Russian or the nato round, make your mind IA. Which big brained person thought that using pkt in armoured and mech divisions and fn mag in infantry divisions, what about ammo commonality, since we were buying so many bmp and t tanks, we could have atleast haggled Russians to put fn mag there or we were just getting totally milked there.

PKT might've come here as part of technical package of Tin-72,Tin-90Ass or BMPee or other ruskie land based combat vehicle stuff,
rest i agree that's what we should've done but...
anyway 7.62 NATO PK based derivatives already exist, look at Polish and Bulgarians etc, even our friendly neighbourhood Norinco had some export variant in that calibre, so even that was possible...7.62 NATO based PKT should've happened plus GPMG//MMG version for infantry use from that...
i covered same thing in past in some of my posts




I say we should've also switched to 7.62 NATO Dragunov in time...again Norinco and even former Izhmash and other eastern euro manufacturers of SVD rolled out 7.62 NATO chambered variant for sales to western civilians as well as some militaries, we don't make SVD here but at least we could've gotten a conversion done from these guys , much better one-time deal than dragging around with a separate specialised ammunition for these "standard issue sniper rifle" thing here,
then again some of these SVDs are getting basic rails and upgrades very recently in 2020s so why should i bother with a thorough calibre conversion-sort-upgrade...

coming back to PK, well those Negev NG-7 we bought as replacement for L4 bren, are design-wise similar to PK...open bolt kalashnikov-ish machine gun - something that we could've done here on our own but...didn't happen...

Jay (@Unknowncommando 2) is correct, those PKT//PKTM can be used outside vehicles just like regular PK/PKMs , albeit it'll be awkward to operate on it but practically possible,
to explain it further,
PK/PKM is an open bolt machine gun, and it's trigger mechanism is just a spring-loaded-sear that's operated using a trigger (in terms of parts numbers and actual operating it is even simpler than British Sten Gun's trigger mechanism) housed inside a small stamped sheet metal housing below the receiver, and of course has a rotatable safety that allows or blocks movement of Sear-Trigger combo in certain positions.

Unfortunately soviets didn't make its trigger group (and in general whole trigger assembly) removable during disassembly etc like other machine guns of past so you gotta have tools to take it out for various purposes.

Coming back on point, you see, if you attach a Solenoid (i.e. a small electromagnet that you could find in a door-bell) to its sear, it can act just like a trigger and by pressing a button you can fire the weapon and so.

Now, reverse should also happen, no ? i mean if it's taken off from vehicle and if someone could provide power to solenoid or manually operate the linkage between solenoid and sear , just like a trigger, it should fire, no?

That's exactly how they use it outside vehicles etc. as PKT/PKTM does have a dual purpose trigger mechanism on it, When linked to an electric firing system, the machine gun can be fired either by depressing the trigger button on the gunner's control handles or by pressing the manual trigger button located on the trigger unit installed at the back the receiver of the machine gun. The latter method may be necessary if the tank or vehicle loses electrical power or if some other issue makes it impossible to fire the machine gun normally.

There also are some interesting differences between PK/PKM and PKT/PKTM which i shall explain later.

if it was NORINCO you can bet they must've done something like that already...heck they indeed did
Type 80's export variant called CS/LM4 = chinese made PKM in 7.62 NATO

General-Purpose Machine Gun Type CS/LM4_Rifle_Weapon_Products_Jing An

京安

cjaie.com

however unlike UKM-2000 of Poland they didn't seem to change feed system and related design elements which is still PKM based = mechanical 'claw' grabbing a round when bolt is forwarding and during rearwards motion of bolt pulling it out and a downwards pusher aligning it to the rotating bolt-chamber etc; a side-mounted link pusher mechanism pushes the link during forward motion of the bolt carrier etc;

UKM-2000 system is similar to MAG-58 (and MG-42; MG-3 and other common NATO MGs) = belt is placed in feed tray with opening at centre for round, on forward motion of the bolt it would push a round out from front and feed it directly; while forward motion also actuates belt pusher mechanism embedded with top cover that moves it one link forward (and pushing out previous link etc)

so in almost all ways UKM-2000 is a proper NATO-compatible PKM derivative

in case any OFB AWEIL ARDE guy reading my post; do us a favour and USE PKMT TECH YOU HAVE THERE TO MAKE A PROPER UKM-2000 LIKE DERIVATIVE HERE AT HOME!
> 7.62 NATO disintegrating link belt fed
> use MAG58's belt pusher mechanism; modify bolt carrier like this diagram of UKM-2000 above;
> add semi-auto and full auto trigger group (to rival with NEGEV NG-7)
> add MAG58's quick-change barrel system in front in place of PKM's as it's better design
> goes without saying, modular buttstock and picatiny rails and handguards with rails for verticle grip etc

if they could do it successfully like how poles did with UKM-2000P (modernised edition from early 2010s) it will make NG-7 run for its monies

 

[Johny_Baba]

Instead of Mag-58s abd Brens we should have standardised Pks.Still after the entry of Mk48d and Maximis, Pks are relevant

PKs are grossly under valued when compared with Aks.Its a gun with absolutely no haters , with a rail and disentegrating belt it cpuld become the next M2 browning ie will run through this century

now coming to PKM as standard machien gun in place of MAG58; i have a mixed opinion regd this; mainly
+ PKM is lighter than MAG58 for almost same barrel length etc;BUT a big factor behind MAG58's weightness comes from added mass requiring for that tilting bolt design and heavier receiver build; if one can shed some weight off of receiver and other stuff *theoretically* it could also be made lighter and that's exactly what Barrett//Geissele 240 LWS is doing

something that's also now being implemented on newer production MAG 58 and that '7.62 NATO BELT FED MACHINE GUN' by OFB/AWEIL here
- a rotating bolt design like PKM is somewhat more susceptible to parts fractures-failures than a relatively simpler tilting bolt design like MAG58

so i think MAG58 for those roles requiring heavy fire since it's extremely rugged design;
and desi UKM-2000P chhap PKM derivative in 7.62 NATO for ;belt fed light machine gun; or troop-carrie-able belt-fed machine gun; that is how it should be i think

Negev is what comes closest to PKM. PKM in 7.62x51 isn't as good as 7.62x54 version as the legendary reliability came in part with strong extraction mechanism that came with rimmed cartridge.

it's somewhat true that ;rimmed; rounds have better extraction but other factor helping in extraction is overall taper (cone-like shape) of the cartridge; both 7.62 NATO and x54mmR have more than enough taper for that purpose

and in PKM a round is first pulled out by mechanical claws attached to the bolt carrier, then it is pushed downwards in an open-bowl like intermediatery holder (part of the feed tray) and when bolt carrier is forwarding it is then pushed further towards the chamber etc; if any of these gets worn out or gets damaged due to some reason you can expect a stripped round remaining stuck inside somewhere and gun failing form firing - something that sometimes happen with well used PKMs;

if you could just replace it with UKM-2000 like pusher design then these kind of potential failures are solved easily and most importantly you could get a machine gun that feeds from same round that we've been using on our standard GPMG here; unlike in standard 7.62x54mm PKM for which alone we have to keep separate ammo as well as belts

so there certainly advantages with 7.62 NATO PKM over standard one at very minor expense of some ;legendary reliability; meme part

in fact; during late 80s Soviets themselves tried to develop a rimless intermediate calibre round in 6x49mm "Unified" to potentially replace their standard 7.62x54mmR and ALSO made a PKM derivative AND a Dragunov derivative in that calibre;

top to bottom; 5.45x39mm, 6x49mm 'Unified' and 7.62x54mmR

top to bottom; sniper rifles TKB-0145K, SVK, SVK-S; later twos being Dragunov derivatives

top to bottom; a PKM derivative in 6x49mm ;Unified; left-right sides and one production model at some museum, and actual 6x49mm belt with some prototype ammos; notice how it's very MG-42-ish non-disintegrating link belt made for push-type cartridge feeding mechanisms unlike one on actual standard PKM

so even Soviets were going ahead with proper redesign of PKM in late 80s-early 90s; might as well guess that even they realised all these things regd muh rimmed reliability etc and decided to go ahead with something more practical; but unfortunately for them disintegration of the USSR ruined everything from this true intermediate calibre and weapons for that to mighty Buran space shuttle

 

[Lonewarrior]

a rotating bolt design like PKM is somewhat more susceptible to parts fractures-failures

Naaaah, with better alloys like 4340 and S7 getting more and more common in firearms I don't think mechanical failures are going to be that big of an issue. Most parts can now outlive the barrel erosion.

gets worn out or gets damaged

Definitely a con for these pull-type systems...but...but, there's a pro too; a good amount of bolt carrier's energy gets wasted in pulling the cartridge out of the case and as this happens in the rearward travel phase of the cycle, it's good.

 

[NoobWannaLearn]

@Lonewarrior @Johny_Baba guys is sss machine gun with drdo still happening or its not gonna happen now?

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

Naaaah, with better alloys like 4340 and S7 getting more and more common in firearms I don't think mechanical failures are going to be that big of an issue. Most parts can now outlive the barrel erosion.

Definitely a con for these pull-type systems...but...but, there's a pro too; a good amount of bolt carrier's energy gets wasted in pulling the cartridge out of the case and as this happens in the rearward travel phase of the cycle, it's good.

IMO biggest advantage of negev over PKM is the feeding mechanism. Since it only takes up a small space, it can have optics rails on the receiver instead of top cover, leading to higher accuracy.

 

[Lonewarrior]

IMO biggest advantage of negev over PKM is the feeding mechanism. Since it only takes up a small space, it can have optics rails on the receiver instead of top cover, leading to higher accuracy.

PKM has only crucial thing in its top cover; a boing boing spring that pushes the cartridge downward after they have been pulled back...there is no feed mechanism like MG-42 or MAG. And if you count 7.62x51mm versions of PKM like UKM-2000 they you don't even have that also.

So making a short top cover for PKM is as simple as cutting few parts and TIG welding few...hardly 10 minutes.

Fun Fact : Only because IAI copied they side mounted feed mechanism of PKM, they were able to have a short feed cover.

 

[Lonewarrior]

@Lonewarrior @Johny_Baba guys is sss machine gun with drdo still happening or its not gonna happen now?

No info

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

PKM has only crucial thing in its top cover; a boing boing spring that pushes the cartridge downward after they have been pulled back...there is no feed mechanism like MG-42 or MAG. And if you count 7.62x51mm versions of PKM like UKM-2000 they you don't even have that also.

So making a short top cover for PKM is as simple as cutting few parts and TIG welding few...hardly 10 minutes.

Fun Fact : Only because IAI copied they side mounted feed mechanism of PKM, they were able to have a short feed cover.

Umm.... negev feed mechanism is from czech guns, Vz 52,57,59

 

[Lonewarrior]

Umm.... negev feed mechanism is from czech guns, Vz 52,57,59

So is PKM's

Vz. 52 > PK > Negev

 

[Johny_Baba]

Naaaah, with better alloys like 4340 and S7 getting more and more common in firearms I don't think mechanical failures are going to be that big of an issue. Most parts can now outlive the barrel erosion.

Definitely a con for these pull-type systems...but...but, there's a pro too; a good amount of bolt carrier's energy gets wasted in pulling the cartridge out of the case and as this happens in the rearward travel phase of the cycle, it's good.

PKM has only crucial thing in its top cover; a boing boing spring that pushes the cartridge downward after they have been pulled back...there is no feed mechanism like MG-42 or MAG. And if you count 7.62x51mm versions of PKM like UKM-2000 they you don't even have that also.

So making a short top cover for PKM is as simple as cutting few parts and TIG welding few...hardly 10 minutes.

Fun Fact : Only because IAI copied they side mounted feed mechanism of PKM, they were able to have a short feed cover.

starts going bolt action after 685 some rounds and after shooting 3 or 4 more goes out of service;
despite barrel being mostly intact and so; when he opened top cover you could see bolt is forward and grabbing a round so most likely there wasn't one in intermediatory round ramp behind feed tray

i remember seeing this vdo on youtube originally but all the criticism of reliability things probably compelled them to take it down; or just youthoob doing its usual anti-russia anti-guns things

compared to that
just stops once probably a stuck link in ejection side but once it is cycled it goes back to action just like before and chugs through 1200 some rounds easily

so, yeah as i said if you want serious full auto suppressive fire MAG 58 is better choice; for regular stuff like short bursts at enemy and shoot-and-scoot like things PKM is better choice
something that amreekis been doing since long; most of their vehicle mounted 7.62 NATO machine guns are MAG 58 // M240 Bravo; some of the machine gunners guys carry it as machine gun while large part of machine gun force get M60, M249, MK 48 'Maximi' and such relatively lighter rotating bolt belt fed machine guns

 

[Lonewarrior]

starts going bolt action after 685 some rounds and after shooting 3 or 4 more goes out of service;
despite barrel being mostly intact and so; when he opened top cover you could see bolt is forward and grabbing a round so most likely there wasn't one in intermediatory round ramp behind feed tray

i remember seeing this vdo on youtube originally but all the criticism of reliability things probably compelled them to take it down; or just youthoob doing its usual anti-russia anti-guns things

compared to that
just stops once probably a stuck link in ejection side but once it is cycled it goes back to action just like before and chugs through 1200 some rounds easily

so, yeah as i said if you want serious full auto suppressive fire MAG 58 is better choice; for regular stuff like short bursts at enemy and shoot-and-scoot like things PKM is better choice
something that amreekis been doing since long; most of their vehicle mounted 7.62 NATO machine guns are MAG 58 // M240 Bravo; some of the machine gunners guys carry it as machine gun while large part of machine gun force get M60, M249, MK 48 'Maximi' and such relatively lighter rotating bolt belt fed machine guns

PK was developed from ground up to be light and cheap to produce. Especially light because Russian were fed up with having special cradles to carry Maxims and SG-43 Goryunovs when Germans were running with MG-42s. So you see things like sheet metal construction, light contour barrel, heck even the bolt and bolt carrier are scalloped to save weight wherever possible, the channel in bolt for firing pin also makes it weaker.

Now come to MAG, it was developed almost a decade earlier and the concept of light machine gun as developed by Germans were still pretty wild for west to adopt. So it follows the typical heavy ass, milled construction of prior machine guns like Bren or M1919...thick metal plates bolted together. It was so heavy that US initially adopted it as only as vehicle mounted gun, not infantry.

So no matter how good both the guns are, you'll definitely see the effects of these two factors on them. So end of day you'll need to either lighten MAG (as done by Barrett) or strengthen PKM (by using forged aluminium receiver; as of now done by no one) to get the so called prefect machine gun.

 

[Automatic Kalashnikov]

 

[ALBY]

 

[Johny_Baba]

PK was developed from ground up to be light and cheap to produce. Especially light because Russian were fed up with having special cradles to carry Maxims and SG-43 Goryunovs when Germans were running with MG-42s. So you see things like sheet metal construction, light contour barrel, heck even the bolt and bolt carrier are scalloped to save weight wherever possible, the channel in bolt for firing pin also makes it weaker.

Now come to MAG, it was developed almost a decade earlier and the concept of light machine gun as developed by Germans were still pretty wild for west to adopt. So it follows the typical heavy ass, milled construction of prior machine guns like Bren or M1919...thick metal plates bolted together. It was so heavy that US initially adopted it as only as vehicle mounted gun, not infantry.

So no matter how good both the guns are, you'll definitely see the effects of these two factors on them. So end of day you'll need to either lighten MAG (as done by Barrett) or strengthen PKM (by using forged aluminium receiver; as of now done by no one) to get the so called prefect machine gun.

so now you lowkey agree with my POV after i gave visual proof; and in turn giving history lesson over things...besides US already had M60 various editions for their infantry and newly inducted FN M249 'Minimi' doing just fine so they didn't have initial needs for ;heavy sturdy; MAG 58 for troop level roles but even they eventually switched to that going as far as trying to shed some weight off it to going ahead with entirely new MG nowadays

further validates my opinion regd things -> MAG 58 for mounted roles; something PKM derivative for infantry level roles which is now supplied by Negev NG-7 (and probably lightened Barrett 240LWS-ised MAG 58 for heavy assault teams)