Flying Dagger
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Haenel performed better and HK 433 was costlier. So this is the winner .
It's fine Let's make a deal with caracal/Haenel now may be better offer coming our way.
Small arms and Light Weapons
- Thread starter Vikramaditya
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quite a looong story but trying to keep it as short as possible,
> G-36, good design but krauts fooked up massively by choosing polymer receiver design, even for its upper reeciver in which a barrel,attached to a steel trunnion, is directly pressed inside a plastic shell
, aanndd its rate of fire is some 850 some rounds per minute which also helps in overheating it after dumping some mags through it...G-36 Trunnion
G-36 Trunnion cutout pics, see how it's just sits directly inside receiver made of polymer
after observing it, you can easily tell it that overheating causes wraps in the polymer receiver itself which further shifts (even if minor) entire trunnion-barrel combo that would further shift its aim by spreading MoA...all these because polymer upper receiver that wraps if 'overheated'
apart from this, the way sights are mounted on G-36...
rear sight base is at relatively safer place by being far away from heating parts BUT its front end is again attached DIRECTLY above the trunnion part which is already facing shifts and issues...so maybe maybe that wrap happening due to heat etc is also affecting aim of optics or whatever is mounted on top ?of course the response to these complaints was usual "alles ist gut,trust thy Gewehr" style statements from their army upper brass as well as the manufacturer and some *ahem*
> This got further blown when many kraut troops deployed in the Afghanistan faced it all first hand, in scorching heat and such harsh environment that shift issue became even more apparent, and troops started loosing confidence in their service rifle, upper brass getting pressurised and decided to ask for solution (at last ?!)
> Of course some wise people did come out with solution such as something that i mentioned about in past,
replacing G-36's polymer upper receiver with a metallic one, simple as that,
so how come it did not happen ? because *probably* it was not offered by H&K but rather an austrian small arms company Steyr ?
i mean aren't these people together in NATO already then why should it matter...> anyway politicians and Bundeswehr already made up mind over giving up on G-36 as controversy over it worsened,
tender was affloated and competitors submitted their designs for testings-evaluations etc...
now coming to HK433, well H&K's offering probably came out as their ;futuristic; replacement weapon thing along with just a G-36 replacement since HK433 has lots of features in it design-wise, notably a certain *ahem* round counter thing which is integrated to receiver and transmits data wirelessly using RFID tech...
as for the basic design features, it was made with aluminium extrusion upper receiver, FINALLY a metallic receiver rifle offering, and was modular = some six different lenghs of swappable barrel and things offered for it, and other common things like non-reciprocating charging handle which doubles as bolt forward assist and ambidextrous controls and being sealed design etc etc...i believe it was also an AR-18 derivative design in terms of operating mechanism but never bothered much to confirm it
H&K also offered their successful HK416 custom variant, but to promote HK433 they prized that one lower than HK416 hhmm
as for others, their ministry never released full list of contenders but first attempt failed with all contestants not being able to meet requirements but at the end CG Haenel's MK556 emerged victorious being lowest bidder as well as passing technical trials
MK556 = kraut made derivative of Caracal CAR816 which was designed by same engineer who worked in H&K in past with HK416 later worked in SIG SAUER on SIG516 etc etc...so internally it was going to be very very similar to base design of HK416
this further enraged (as well as frightened ?) those H&K guys with such a massive tender slipping out of their hands by a very unknown-ish competitor that too to a design which spanned out of their original work, so naturally the background politics and all started with H&K first filing cases against CG Haenel citing patent violations reee and at same time pro-H&K lobby making statements that certain middle eastern country's firms have considerable stake in CG Haenel and thus cannot be trusted with military orders, at same time anti-H&K lobby made statements that if that's the case then they should not even purchase Daimler and other companies' automobiles since even China has stakes in certain german automobile companies, so does middle eastern companies etc etc
anyway many things happened and now it seems they just want to put an end to these controversies by giving it to H&K and selecting HK416 which is most successful one out of available choices, big loss to CG Haenel though
**********************************************************************************************************************
some further comments
- Mexicans should better beware! they took basic inspirations for their FX-05 Xiuhcoatl (means "Fire Serpent", a native feathered-serpent deity of native mexican civilizations), which despite not being a direct copy of G-36, DOES incorporate a polymer upper receiver design as well as trunnion-barrel combo that is quite similar to what is there on G-36,
though i have not read about Mexicans complaining about issues on their rifle showing significant accuracy shift etc but then again they maxican and finding such specific information is going to be laborious to start with...
- What would be others doing that adopted G-36 and so in their armed forces hhmm, Lithuanians, Latvians and so which also made it a standard issue rifle...
- I also wonder if americans were aware about such potential issue on G-36, i mean they were partners with the germans in XM8 program, XM8 rifle itself was a fork of G-36 design to start with and also incorporated polymer upper receiver design in it, and knowing americans who were being extra careful with their firearms testings-trials et al after initial debacle of M16 in vietnam i believe highly likely they did find out about it which possibly could be one of the reason behind cancellation of XM8 program,
oh and HK416 (as HK M4 back then) also started emerging out around same period when the americans were loosing interest over XM8, along with other things like AR in 6.8x43mm
- Whatabout other rifles with polymer upper designs, currently Beretta ARX-160 comes in mind which also has a polymer upper and even quick-detach mechanism to swap barrel hhmm - but looking at its quite wider handguards and that section being almost hollow etc - makes me think perhaps it is ventilated well enough to dissipate heat from firing and so, so maybe yeah ?
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Washikaotajokoju edajima heihachi deiyarquite a looong story but trying to keep it as short as possible,
> G-36, good design but krauts fooked up massively by choosing polymer receiver design, even for its upper reeciver in which a barrel,attached to a steel trunnion, is directly pressed inside a plastic shell
G-36 Trunnion
View attachment 186357
G-36 Trunnion cutout pics, see how it's just sits directly inside receiver made of polymer
View attachment 186358
View attachment 186359
View attachment 186360
after observing it, you can easily tell it that overheating causes wraps in the polymer receiver itself which further shifts (even if minor) entire trunnion-barrel combo that would further shift its aim by spreading MoA...all these because polymer upper receiver that wraps if 'overheated'
apart from this, the way sights are mounted on G-36...
of course the response to these complaints was usual "alles ist gut,trust thy Gewehr" style statements from their army upper brass as well as the manufacturer and some *ahem*fanboisfans (those youthoob chhaps going on vdo to proove how it's all fake news reee there is little to no shift in aim hurr durr it's all overblown fake nooj etc, were they doing it all because they were paid i wonder) aannd even politicians there which were divided among pro-vs-anti H&K factions. H&K even went as far as blaming it on certain thick brassed ammunition like...yeah
> This got further blown when many kraut troops deployed in the Afghanistan faced it all first hand, in scorching heat and such harsh environment that shift issue became even more apparent, and troops started loosing confidence in their service rifle, upper brass getting pressurised and decided to ask for solution (at last ?!)
> Of course some wise people did come out with solution such as something that i mentioned about in past,
replacing G-36's polymer upper receiver with a metallic one, simple as that,
so how come it did not happen ? because *probably* it was not offered by H&K but rather an austrian small arms company Steyr ?
> anyway politicians and Bundeswehr already made up mind over giving up on G-36 as controversy over it worsened,
tender was affloated and competitors submitted their designs for testings-evaluations etc...
now coming to HK433, well H&K's offering probably came out as their ;futuristic; replacement weapon thing along with just a G-36 replacement since HK433 has lots of features in it design-wise, notably a certain *ahem* round counter thing which is integrated to receiver and transmits data wirelessly using RFID tech...
as for the basic design features, it was made with aluminium extrusion upper receiver, FINALLY a metallic receiver rifle offering, and was modular = some six different lenghs of swappable barrel and things offered for it, and other common things like non-reciprocating charging handle which doubles as bolt forward assist and ambidextrous controls and being sealed design etc etc...i believe it was also an AR-18 derivative design in terms of operating mechanism but never bothered much to confirm it
H&K also offered their successful HK416 custom variant, but to promote HK433 they prized that one lower than HK416 hhmm
as for others, their ministry never released full list of contenders but first attempt failed with all contestants not being able to meet requirements but at the end CG Haenel's MK556 emerged victorious being lowest bidder as well as passing technical trials
MK556 = kraut made derivative of Caracal CAR816 which was designed by same engineer who worked in H&K in past with HK416 later worked in SIG SAUER on SIG516 etc etc...so internally it was going to be very very similar to base design of HK416
this further enraged (as well as frightened ?) those H&K guys with such a massive tender slipping out of their hands by a very unknown-ish competitor that too to a design which spanned out of their original work, so naturally the background politics and all started with H&K first filing cases against CG Haenel citing patent violations reee and at same time pro-H&K lobby making statements that certain middle eastern country's firms have considerable stake in CG Haenel and thus cannot be trusted with military orders, at same time anti-H&K lobby made statements that if that's the case then they should not even purchase Daimler and other companies' automobiles since even China has stakes in certain german automobile companies, so does middle eastern companies etc etc
anyway many things happened and now it seems they just want to put an end to these controversies by giving it to H&K and selecting HK416 which is most successful one out of available choices, big loss to CG Haenel though
**********************************************************************************************************************
some further comments
- Mexicans should better beware! they took basic inspirations for their FX-05 Xiuhcoatl (means "Fire Serpent", a native feathered-serpent deity of native mexican civilizations), which despite not being a direct copy of G-36, DOES incorporate a polymer upper receiver design as well as trunnion-barrel combo that is quite similar to what is there on G-36,
though i have not read about Mexicans complaining about issues on their rifle showing significant accuracy shift etc but then again they maxican and finding such specific information is going to be laborious to start with...
- What would be others doing that adopted G-36 and so in their armed forces hhmm, Lithuanians, Latvians and so which also made it a standard issue rifle...
- I also wonder if americans were aware about such potential issue on G-36, i mean they were partners with the germans in XM8 program, XM8 rifle itself was a fork of G-36 design to start with and also incorporated polymer upper receiver design in it, and knowing americans who were being extra careful with their firearms testings-trials et al after initial debacle of M16 in vietnam i believe highly likely they did find out about it which possibly could be one of the reason behind cancellation of XM8 program,
oh and HK416 (as HK M4 back then) also started emerging out around same period when the americans were loosing interest over XM8, along with other things like AR in 6.8x43mm
- Whatabout other rifles with polymer upper designs, currently Beretta ARX-160 comes in mind which also has a polymer upper and even quick-detach mechanism to swap barrel hhmm - but looking at its quite wider handguards and that section being almost hollow etc - makes me think perhaps it is ventilated well enough to dissipate heat from firing and so, so maybe yeah ?
Corvus Splendens
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Automatic Kalashnikov
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It says paratroopers?
Lonewarrior
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When someone asks me what are the top 5 most widely used cartridges in the world
Le me :
Le me :
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Lonewarrior
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Latest n best
Someone get this man a G11
NoobWannaLearn
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What gun is it?
MisraZ
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NoobWannaLearn
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Weird seeing it without silencer that's why I didn't recognise it ig
ManhattanProject
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New chinese machine gun.
Alamarathan
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+1 write upquite a looong story but trying to keep it as short as possible,
> G-36, good design but krauts fooked up massively by choosing polymer receiver design, even for its upper reeciver in which a barrel,attached to a steel trunnion, is directly pressed inside a plastic shell
G-36 Trunnion
View attachment 186357
G-36 Trunnion cutout pics, see how it's just sits directly inside receiver made of polymer
View attachment 186358
View attachment 186359
View attachment 186360
after observing it, you can easily tell it that overheating causes wraps in the polymer receiver itself which further shifts (even if minor) entire trunnion-barrel combo that would further shift its aim by spreading MoA...all these because polymer upper receiver that wraps if 'overheated'
apart from this, the way sights are mounted on G-36...
of course the response to these complaints was usual "alles ist gut,trust thy Gewehr" style statements from their army upper brass as well as the manufacturer and some *ahem*fanboisfans (those youthoob chhaps going on vdo to proove how it's all fake news reee there is little to no shift in aim hurr durr it's all overblown fake nooj etc, were they doing it all because they were paid i wonder) aannd even politicians there which were divided among pro-vs-anti H&K factions. H&K even went as far as blaming it on certain thick brassed ammunition like...yeah
> This got further blown when many kraut troops deployed in the Afghanistan faced it all first hand, in scorching heat and such harsh environment that shift issue became even more apparent, and troops started loosing confidence in their service rifle, upper brass getting pressurised and decided to ask for solution (at last ?!)
> Of course some wise people did come out with solution such as something that i mentioned about in past,
replacing G-36's polymer upper receiver with a metallic one, simple as that,
so how come it did not happen ? because *probably* it was not offered by H&K but rather an austrian small arms company Steyr ?
> anyway politicians and Bundeswehr already made up mind over giving up on G-36 as controversy over it worsened,
tender was affloated and competitors submitted their designs for testings-evaluations etc...
now coming to HK433, well H&K's offering probably came out as their ;futuristic; replacement weapon thing along with just a G-36 replacement since HK433 has lots of features in it design-wise, notably a certain *ahem* round counter thing which is integrated to receiver and transmits data wirelessly using RFID tech...
as for the basic design features, it was made with aluminium extrusion upper receiver, FINALLY a metallic receiver rifle offering, and was modular = some six different lenghs of swappable barrel and things offered for it, and other common things like non-reciprocating charging handle which doubles as bolt forward assist and ambidextrous controls and being sealed design etc etc...i believe it was also an AR-18 derivative design in terms of operating mechanism but never bothered much to confirm it
H&K also offered their successful HK416 custom variant, but to promote HK433 they prized that one lower than HK416 hhmm
as for others, their ministry never released full list of contenders but first attempt failed with all contestants not being able to meet requirements but at the end CG Haenel's MK556 emerged victorious being lowest bidder as well as passing technical trials
MK556 = kraut made derivative of Caracal CAR816 which was designed by same engineer who worked in H&K in past with HK416 later worked in SIG SAUER on SIG516 etc etc...so internally it was going to be very very similar to base design of HK416
this further enraged (as well as frightened ?) those H&K guys with such a massive tender slipping out of their hands by a very unknown-ish competitor that too to a design which spanned out of their original work, so naturally the background politics and all started with H&K first filing cases against CG Haenel citing patent violations reee and at same time pro-H&K lobby making statements that certain middle eastern country's firms have considerable stake in CG Haenel and thus cannot be trusted with military orders, at same time anti-H&K lobby made statements that if that's the case then they should not even purchase Daimler and other companies' automobiles since even China has stakes in certain german automobile companies, so does middle eastern companies etc etc
anyway many things happened and now it seems they just want to put an end to these controversies by giving it to H&K and selecting HK416 which is most successful one out of available choices, big loss to CG Haenel though
**********************************************************************************************************************
some further comments
- Mexicans should better beware! they took basic inspirations for their FX-05 Xiuhcoatl (means "Fire Serpent", a native feathered-serpent deity of native mexican civilizations), which despite not being a direct copy of G-36, DOES incorporate a polymer upper receiver design as well as trunnion-barrel combo that is quite similar to what is there on G-36,
though i have not read about Mexicans complaining about issues on their rifle showing significant accuracy shift etc but then again they maxican and finding such specific information is going to be laborious to start with...
- What would be others doing that adopted G-36 and so in their armed forces hhmm, Lithuanians, Latvians and so which also made it a standard issue rifle...
- I also wonder if americans were aware about such potential issue on G-36, i mean they were partners with the germans in XM8 program, XM8 rifle itself was a fork of G-36 design to start with and also incorporated polymer upper receiver design in it, and knowing americans who were being extra careful with their firearms testings-trials et al after initial debacle of M16 in vietnam i believe highly likely they did find out about it which possibly could be one of the reason behind cancellation of XM8 program,
oh and HK416 (as HK M4 back then) also started emerging out around same period when the americans were loosing interest over XM8, along with other things like AR in 6.8x43mm
- Whatabout other rifles with polymer upper designs, currently Beretta ARX-160 comes in mind which also has a polymer upper and even quick-detach mechanism to swap barrel hhmm - but looking at its quite wider handguards and that section being almost hollow etc - makes me think perhaps it is ventilated well enough to dissipate heat from firing and so, so maybe yeah ?
Steyr recently released a metallic receiver variant to unfook the krauts mistake, im drooling for one now
Corvus Splendens
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Corvus Splendens
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Tavor doesn't like cold
NoobWannaLearn
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Most of them failed except ofc the legendary ak
Lonewarrior
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And (one of) the answer to that question is one the most basic topics of physics; torque.
Torque directly proportional to (as it is the product of) force and lever arm or the distance from the rotational axis the force is acting. The more torque you can generate on the bolt the more reliable the gun gets. The force that the gun can generate on the bolt is more or less the same for each gun; so the only variable left to manipulate torque is lever arm.
1. In case of AKs or AK based guns the lever arm is longest. Why? Because the force is applied on a cam that's mounted on one of the bolt lug. So the total length of lever arm becomes -
Radius of bolt stem + height of locking lug + cam pin; the maximum torque.
2. In case of AR-15 or AR-18 based guns the lever arm is shorter. The locking - unlocking force acts on a cam pin mounted on bolt stem. The length of lever arm - Radius of bolt stem + length of cam pin; tough less than AK but still
3. Now coming to Tavor. Tavor is the only service rifle where the cam pin is fixed and cam path is machined directly on the bolt shaft. The length of lever arm - Radius of bolt stem; that's it. It's the shortest in all the rifles so it generates the least of torque.
I know all this sounds boring so here's another way of explaining everything.
When IWI made Tavor the did that cam track on bolt stem and fixed cam pin thing. But after so many years of experience when they recently made Tavor 7 then they ditch that system in favour of typical AR-18 type cam pin arrangment.
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+1
also other thing with Tavor design,its bolt,
which is like this compared to AR-15's
notice it has two lugs in bottom acting as cartridge pushers and a thicker lug on right and other thicker lug+extractor combo on left, so with respect to thickness of its bolt stem the locking lugs are just...weaker to provide much locking, and reasons seems pretty much what @Lonewarrior bhai explained
same thing is even reflected in its trunnion (here also barrel extension just like AR) which has this sort of unique shape, (pardon me for this image, i tried best to get a good picture showing clear view of Tavor's trunnion but google failed me)
notice it has barely 3 lugs on it, two at bottom which in conjuction with the bolt also doubles as cartridge insertion guide and so,
so yeah, it is a very spring dependent design as more than the actual locking and cycling of internals it is the (push from) recoil spring that helps in efficient functioning of the rifle
btw i swear i have seen similar design in other firearm, a rifle, where camming part was fixed and rather bolt was given camming track etc but just forgot the name at this moment...
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I wish to be a member of otokojoku
Can you help me join it
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